Trump Won't Commit To Peaceful Transfer Of Power | FiveThirtyEight Politics Podcast

In this emergency FiveThirtyEight Politics podcast, the crew reacts to the news that President Donald Trump refused to commit to a peaceful transfer of power should he lose the 2020 election.
45:31 | 09/24/20

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Transcript for Trump Won't Commit To Peaceful Transfer Of Power | FiveThirtyEight Politics Podcast
Hello and welcome to this emergency addiction and the 530 politics podcast I'm deal in. President trump declined to say on Wednesday that he would commit to a peaceful transfer of power following the November election. Earlier in the day he also said he expected the Supreme Court to decide the election saying Kuo. I think this will end up in the Supreme Court and I think it's a very important that we have nine justices. And Kuo. In bulls statements he cited unfounded concerns about widespread mail voting fraud. In 2016. Then candidate trump also regularly repeated conspiracy theories about voter fraud and declined to say that he would accept the result of the election. Back then his unfounded concern was about in person voting fraud now its mail voting for. So it appears there's not a way that Americans can vote that the president won't cast doubt on. The reality is there are exceedingly rare cases of fraud in America. It it would be all but impossible to commit on a scale that could decide an election and go on to tactic. This kind of undermining a trust and commitment to democracy is unprecedented in modern American history. And so we are here to take note of it and discuss what it means for this election and how we caught. And he repeated about our editor in chief Nate Silver Kinney. Hey everybody. Also here at us you know politics writer Clara Malone declare he. And senior politics writer Perry bacon junior kicker. Its view. Likewise so to start off I just want to play the president's comments from Wednesday in which he declined to connect. To a peaceful transfer of power here as. When a lizard brawl in this election. We can get here today for a peaceful. Trance and unfurled power after the election. There has been writing a little there's been writing in many cities across this country writ end your so called red and Blue States. We commit to making sure that there is a peaceful trance for a low power after the election. We'll have to see what happens you know that have been complaining very strongly about the ballots and the bouncer disaster. And in Iraq. He comes to making sure hundreds of these little worry we're get rid of the ballots and you have a victorians who have a very peaceful. There won't be affairs there frankly they'll be a continuation. At the ballots are at a control you know it and you know knows it better than anybody else the Democrats know that better than him but he. Are neat how do you respond to what the president sat on Wednesday. The. Listen I think any time. That you have a president who cannot answer question with the kind of boilerplate response and of course it's going to be a peaceful transition of course we'll respect. The lot whatever the courts say in the voters' right I mean that's. Really that. And it's kind of pretty authoritarian. Now we can debate what's actually mean in practice. But especially kind of he framed it in terms of well you know. You know I mean it was very ominous and an in house to describe it. I think it ought to have made. Front page news right now be shunted off to the a fourteen page or whatever was a lot of newspapers. Now. I think. Where there is some refer discussion is like trump says a lot of things. Working actually do. Right and how organized. If any plan is there it's there where I depart a little bit and think that people. Overestimate how. Easy it would be to actually steal. An election especially much of the wasn't close. By you know certainly it's a comet that unto itself is like. Newsworthy. And you know worthy of like needing to be called out I think you've seen Mitt Romney put to get his statements but a lot of other. Republican statements are pretty kind of guarded her kind of half past. Somalia. I mean listen he did this and and 2016 at Wright started right about the same time. So it's it's. It's. Odd did. One way to put it that this is sort of the same and late September October conversation that were happening 20/20 that we did in 2016 witches trump. Flicks with this idea of not accepting you know entry sixteen the results of the election. And in twenty Tony not accepting leaving the White House potentially. In in January and that's X explicit he built in. You know to to the constitution. I think we're happiness emergency pod cast it seemed because like I think. Listeners should take the fact that we are having this emergency podcast is almost like. Are our front page about the awful reading of this which is it's a big deal even though it is Latin. My reaction to it in 20/20. Vs 2016 is to be. Alarmed but not surprised me and I think that that is what makes probably. What our discussion is going to be today. Sure tricky because trump. As we don't know is like a wonderful PR man right he knows how to. Almost troll immediately scriptural Democrat that that's right now. Stipulated. Troll in using democratic institutions is. Extremely bat right. But there is also something networks here which is track knows that this is get a rile people up and he knows that that it's gonna start this conversation. Democrats in the media are being histrionics about this of course trump is gonna leave the ops of course you're gonna have a fair election this is America. Tan. That goes without saying but obviously it bought out because democracies are liberal liberal democracies are living breathing things that need should be. Checked up on and protocols need be followed so so late we do you kind of want to stipulate at a front here witches. This whole. National conversation that's gonna happen around like chumps and is at what trump wants to happen. Which makes which is sort of this kind of double pinkie Cherokee. Sticky spot we'll find ourselves in four years into the presidency. So it's ominous and authoritarian manner and words that they those descriptions that were once so. Newsworthy in so important and so dangerous so problematic. And I think it's it I think at this point is fairly clear that. Or Trump's comments imply certainly an idea this. The election results will be. Unclear in November 3. There'll be a lot of mail in ballots that ruled might comment in the comment on her acts county government there the comment on November 2 and there after that. And that he would prefer media those to not be counted. And keeping the judiciary will help him and make sure those are not counted to help him wins I think it this way it's hard to you. That's when his comments seem to be implying and that's like so it is a so the idea that whether each for what trump is doing and he sounds somewhat. Sentiment intention owns and saying things like that now held judges how republic he can't do this by himself that ultimately. On states are in Charlotte systems judges themselves having had these rulings. Republican members of congress and senators and so one can say. It looks like Joseph Biden Juan missed a residence and you can see so I think those things are all played in seems meet Donald Trump is. Pretty messed declared he's not viewing the rules and let's in the same way as most candid seven. Me you started off by saying today you seem to have some disagreement Horrow. When others on how likely you think this might be from what I understand it and reading. You know analysis and reporting. On this it seems like. You know it's not a given that truck has the power to do this but just the threat itself is enough to take seriously even if it's unlikely. What do you think the likelihood it is. Well they're different elements here right. First of all. Is a close enough to matter. Right. Our forecast. Serves about a 5% chance that the election winds up. In recount territory meaning that one or more decisive states within half a percentage point. You know 5% is not nothing. And obviously trump could dispute outcomes act go. You better you know not as close as half a percentage point in Europe pointer two points or something like that right bodily keep in mind that. Of that 5%. Roughly half that our case we're trump actually is the rightful winner. And won fair and square right so one thing we have to wrestle with the years there still is a chance our models is about 20/20 5% at trump wins the election. Legitimately. Because investments are atoning for cheating they're basically not at least four Republicans argue. That oh there all these uncounted ballots but let's just throw them out right. I mean. That would be crossing a cousin. Andy in order of magnitude bigger violation of democracy then. Things and it happens so far you know if it appeared that. Haiti county's ballots Democrats will win now the question is okay we're security case we you're debating over. Provisional ballots or over a recount and even in a recount scenario oh point 5% usually doesn't reverse the confucius BO point 1% or something right. But it's like. Our you can have Republican. Courts and Republican legislatures and you know governors is actor's estate. Basically be willing to say. Hey it's clear. At least it neutral observers. That the result went one way and we're gonna intervene. And and present at permit that result from being certified right or prevent that result from resulting in. The electors from the state going to the candidate who apparently one right I'm just saying that like. May be within an oak point 5% margin is win and it really is ambiguous enough where it's not obvious they're stealing the election right. Byron Russell Oscars like real this working with people what what you don't just sell me on trump will attempt this if you can right. So I think this again another opportunity to say that let the listener should think about and the media should think about. This election as being not Election Day or election night as election month or election weeks right that the idea that. It'll take longer to count ballots and that. You know we should eat prepared on the one hand for. Just a lot but at greater expectations that'll take a longer time to get final results but also there's a lot of difference. Lawsuits happening in lots of different states and there are. Lots of lawyers lined up on on either side to kind of battle it out and I think you know we've learned from the 2000 election. That one thing that the bush campaign did better than the gore campaign is that they realized ahead of time that there was also a PR aspect. And to that so that apple that that even if all the votes are counted in 28 when he. The media cycle logo on that tramples on the path to the I'd stop press conferences and I think that that makes. The actual. Unit two months from now or six weeks now averages. A bit harder taking to to envision because it's it's going to be. It's gonna play out a bit differently than we've seen in previous years and certainly comments like what try made last night don't help. The idea of people thinking that there will be any kind of like playing by the rules that seems more like we're gearing up for the lumberjacks. Election month. Yet and it's others aren't always losses going on right now about. Do you balance after he received. On Election Day or dissenting postmarked by Election Day there's a lot of lawsuits have valid signatures how to verify and I think in this like questions about like mail drop boxes thinking he used them. I mean in general consistent thing is that in general the democratic position is like let's make it. Voting is easy as possible a let's read very fairly lenient on these rules. And opposes in his like let's just let's be sort of stricter on this and we might be more willing to exclude some ballots then. Tended to include them so that's kind of but the losses themselves are going to be very different depending on. Does the winning hearts records we have also a little beauty different voting systems. We've said here that we don't know what happened it depends on how close the election is it depends on what kind of hiccups there are the can be litigated. I mean we do have a sense that president trump is already casting doubt on the outcome of the election. What a fact is that in and of itself regardless of what happens on November 3 in the weeks after have on our democracy. I mean there's some evidence that not win you cast doubt ticket. On the election can lower turnout people think K in my votes knock in a matter. If it's rigged. Now that can lower both democratic turnout and Republican turnout I suppose a compass kind of risking undermining his own base a little bit. But look at one thing you see is like you start to see Democrats. Make claims that hey we should start doing things differently because you want to make sure that. That we win in the right way here win by a big margin right you search see some commentators pundits and your column now kind of saying hey look. Maybe you shouldn't vote by mail but is. Because it's gonna take longer to count and that. Makes things ambiguous right well ordinarily political operatives like it when you vote by mail. The reason being that even though there can be some rejected ballots. You guarantee that you vote people can forget to voters' thinking come up right and subsequently can check and make sure your ballot. Was kind of by mail secure remedy it if if you had an issue. So OK if Democrats ordinarily would say hey great. The president's talking down mail voting we like are people who by mail reluctance votes in early. And yet changed its strategy than in some ways you're letting trump win right if you say okay well now let's make sure that we. Have Biden campaigning in fourteen states. Instead of seven states because we need. More options if something goes wrong and now you're starting to kind of Alter your strategy in ways that could actually reduce you chance of winning Electoral College right. He campaigned in Ohio know if it's clear incentive. Wisconsin or something like as a very competitive state but it probably won't be the tipping point. As likely as Wisconsin might be so. C need to perform. Some kind of threat assessment and you know you need to be more kind of precise about kind of what these scenarios are I think. Part of what I am tied to object to you write to you kinda have. You know this issue of can. Trump with the help of Republican courts. And state legislatures. Steal the election is different men. Would trump encourage or at least not discourage. Violence right. It's different from if Biden wins by seven points will trumps and out some tweets. That says his ex at the result but no one really buys it and on January 20 he is not president any longer. I just kind of thinking about having more. Precision when people discuss these scenarios by the way as kind of we are talking about earlier I mean it's. It's not the world's best conspiracy if you kind of talking about it. Openly. You know. So in some ways shining. Yeah I don't know is that the idea that you just so you plant the seeds to sow doubt in the eventual. Result yeah. Let me I think the I think. Let's let's seemed trump loses by it what's what's cushy market. Sit and hear from. OK let's say trump loses by six points it's pretty on ambiguous. I don't think it's crazy for people to speculate. That to prompt. Would tweak out or give the press conference. That throws doubt on. Could she validated. Results. Because. That's kind of in his ammo. For four years not seeing it's it's like the unlikeliest outcome. It's that if that's an area happens but it's not crazy nor conspiracy to think that he could. Acts the week he does speak to it he does. It has been doing for third quite a few years I mean I wouldn't call what students. The year exceed so much as. People be ye. Freaked out that happened. His tone while change. Post election or posts. Results are each. That's not soon election though right that is like complaining. And to bitching with some deleterious effects on our democracy probably going forward. You know maybe it triggers violence I don't know right that's not. Still in the election union actual plan to steal the election under requires a lot of people right Brett. I guess that's why my question was in part. Just what the president has been doing so far what's the effect of that regardless of what the outcome and I do want to talk about that a little bit more so as I mentioned Perry week we don't know what happened on November 3 in the weeks after but we do know what the president's rhetoric has been so far before the 2006 election before this election. Kind of how does that shape our politics. Or the media's coverage like I don't we how does that shape our democracy. So I think in terms of the media I think it makes it a little you know. Media's norms are to try and is seen as. Neutral between the parties as possible and try to seem to NASA to criticize either side to mister but I think in reality. Joseph Biden is not likely to say things. Joseph Biden did not have. And other governments cancers and other countries in another country investigate Donald Trump. In did just that level of violations of democratic values coming from Joseph Biden is nowhere near Donald trucks and reality like covering election obviously will require. Highlighting Donald Trump statements that Joseph Biden will not make and ultra conduct it. Joseph Beimel not act he's doing Pamela acts I think. It's a big chunk of the media to sort of like covered the story. In front of us honestly. Directly don't diminish comments like you last night's. Be honest about what they mean I think that's going to be a big problem. In terms the electorates. I think that if Joseph Biden wins by a lot you mean we've seen lot of evidence that Republican voters taped trumps points of view and sort of an echo them and all of them believe them so it's a big problem if Joseph Biden wins by nine points out that some big margin. But strong convinces half the public did. That you know that the attendance is lot of Republicans that the boats and how was she union people in Philadelphia needed X or wives that even if Biden wins by a large margin. And the media says that by it was Miller marred you have Charlton Fox News saying actually. It was a hole big conspiracy that's still problem what we still need to get to a point where the election results are clear and people believe them. And so those are the two problem I think this is these comments last night are very problematic. You have Republican members of congress not really sure what to say because they know attacking shrunk even comments like like last night's. Is bad and elect Harley so these problems comments are really dangerous. And have a fit in with a handgun in knowing how to wrestle the expected results on November 3 they have a lot of bad effects right now. You said that this is a challenge for the media and and it is like it puts us and a tough spot right you don't want to you. Up here Paris conspiracy theorists but you also want to take what the president does pence as an threatens. Seriously. How are we at 538. Going into this election period I know this is ongoing discussion and amongst ourselves but considering that we play a role in some science and all of us power we tried to handle this challenge of cooperate. An election. And we haven't really tell where in our lifetime. Thinking about is you know earlier acting. Meet you said something about like we we're using that term like steal the election rate and it takes a lot of people till it steal the election. And eat in some ways like even. The wording that is used is very tricky because. I think we are we and parts of the media are pretty good about calling. Calling a spade as they answered things for instance. Calling. Things like it you know calling outlet racial bias in in some of you know mail in voting practices or calling out racial bias in Jerry man or things like that right. But those you know lower let caught calling out sort of these systemic problems in the political system. But of course if that if the election is going to be determined by. State courts potentially. And the Supreme Court to actually those are out technically. Right technically they are. Organs. The government both state and Nash now. And so it Dade decided election. And people say people are not pleased with the outcome and they say. The court stole the election or trump stole the election. This whole. This patently. It's important it's. Well. Cover that he talked actually quite complicated story. Next month AT. Supreme Court each coming which. I am. Surprised I don't think anybody's check please app that Lear complication. On top of that selection. So I eight. I'd be honest that I ten. I think. I struggle to news organizations struggle with. With. How to talk about those. Adam vernacular terms that are turnaround right now that are not without. Then. Some intellectual basis or foundation but also it becomes reality tricky because. You know you're in a democracy you operate within a system and like it's an unfair it can be an unfair system and your racially biased system all the stuff. I know I'm rambling a little bit I also like. The Supreme Court certified bush V gore and some people didn't like it right. And that affects hit just to the supreme court for decades. But. The Supreme Court is a branch of the government right. I don't apps like it I think I think we're presented with these like super complicated. Like read excuse. How do you talk about. This. I'm. But couple things. Personal I do think you have. Only one out about this for score at its worth remembering just how close. Bush vs gore was right you're talking about. Hundreds of votes in states and where millions of votes were cast. Or one state remains votes votes were cast. You know I think they were media consortium's afterward tried actually. Count the votes going to various standards and there were some ambiguity about you know whether. Gore or bush really had winner nine rice that was a very close election in like the notion that. Bush vs gore was stolen. I don't know that that's totally supportable. In the evidence right he could say that like hey this really kind of came down to like you're never gonna know who really won Florida. And for for sure the supreme court's gonna root for the home team. Give the Thai. On to the home team like to have a base Lee tae requires a very very close margin. Not ED sit theory tossed out sometimes by. Liberals and Democrats that trump we'll find some way. To stop the vote count. Before her. Mail returns are completed right now in number these midwestern states are being court rulings like you Pennsylvania. I believe Michigan Wisconsin where you can actually. As long as your ballot is postmarked by Election Day or day before Election Day depending on the state. Then as to receive within five days you can count that ballot five days later are way right. There are theories at trump would try to and those rulings are being appealed. I'm going to be appealed. There are theories a truck would try to you. You know sees ballots. Or something right that Barbara come in and seized ballots were that. Or that you now. It. Courts would stop. Counting of ballots with no real pretax and the I don't know I I don't know at least hard to like. It's hard to assess the probability of that but like I think people are like a little bit too. Cavalier. In transitioning from. OK. Here are all the things that trump can do to have courts put a finger on the scale. Annual do that. More aggressively than other Republicans have been pretty aggressive and by the way Biden to Hampshire there are thrown out of contingency planning but people I think are a little bit. To Wheeling. To. Cross the cousin from. Courts will put a figure on a scale for trumpet their Republican appointed court's conservative justices to. Pay bar will come in. And steal the election. You know when I don't think anybody's. Old people are sick. Plot has pods I don't like prisoners are him at first I haven't heard argument. I don't let your hydrant with somebody on Twitter that we haven't heard from. But it. You can he do you do chick you see that though right Selig here's a play. A lot like because my point was I don't look engagement my point I'm making a point but I've been engaged. What I was saying it would be what you're saying is there are two levels that one is one of which is truck is going to you do like Antonin. Politician would do witches to. Use every state within his power legally youth in the court system in whatever within the legal recourse to try to make sure he wins. And then there's a separate congress and that's kind of what I'm talking right. Which is like some people will label that as trump is stealing he'll act right and how to be as journalists in. Gage with the the actual things that are going on May be some of the systemic. I see that lead to that meets the things that are particular about American democracy the supreme court's and it represented. And then the other side of it which is like the full blown conspiracies. Theories like. He's not only the White House. Bill bars and try to grab the ballots all that but they're two separate spheres and like I think one of them is fringe you're it and the other. And the one that I'm thinking about acting probably it will end up having 28 with more. Is that is not one of them vernacular where people say trump is stealing elections. But he might he he and Republicans might be working within. Actual legal systems and then there is the other one which I really hope that happen which is something completely illegal out of the norm happens and then. And there it in my and I characterizing. What yet. Yeah I got back and whenever I as far as what were talking. But there are people who don't have that clarity right. And they kind of think that the election's gonna be. Stolen. In a plea in light of day in ways that are pretty obvious. And that will become. Fascist country. A November 7 or wherever Ford is after the election. Has ended. I don't know I don't know how to assess their probability I do think that like. That is alleging. A lot more if it. It's OK so so I don't actually mention I a by name or title but there was an article in the Atlantic came out yesterday or Wednesday. The 23. By Barton Gelman that with basically talking about. Kind of a nightmare scenario problem office. So so neat within that you think that there was chiefs managed together. That idea. OK it's legal but Democrats won't like it and yanks this is completely apt. Let what's what's your expecting that some of what you're getting at house is very much tied to that. That piece of reporting. Much of which was anonymous pressure. And people's reaction to send report. And just to clarify the name of a article is the election could break America. If the vote is close Donald Trump could easily throw the election into chaos and subvert the result who will stop. I mean that. Is saying the magazine feature. That is written in the style. Of magazine features. Call me and it. Which sounds like I'm. Putting it down magazine he checked but. In a magazine feature. You'd like to create. Some of that ambiguity. Right you'd like people to kind and draw. Conclusions too logical or may be greater than logically justified extent near kind of playing with that little bit right if that were at a one story in the Washington Post the New York Times. It would be written differently. Yet on that article like deliberately. Played. Around in that kind of middle ground that grade zone of a distinction right. I mean listen the thing about like. Now could Republican state legislatures appoint their own. Electors with something which is a pretty serious. Threat right at me in theory. States could just society where human appoint her own electors even though Biden when the popular vote in Pennsylvania right constitutionally you can. I know I'm not constitutional scholar right. However I mean these are things that you could discuss in the countries have an ordinary election in Florida. When the reached that was happening there is discussion about. Republicans appointing a slate. Of electors. Still celeb not to slight defense of both magazine. Writing and and the I op play the defense of this article now I think that. The point of the piece is as you say to be slightly provocative to. Now I come from that and so I'd probably like magazine stories more than I like you know a one feature stories in the Washington Post up against it people. There's wonderful institutions and we need them. But it obviously written differently because it asks often magazine features asked Ian asked the person to imagine a scenario ask the person to use. The evidence of the world in front of them to think about different possibilities and to think in this case different potentially catastrophic scenarios. As almost like stress test exercise for people's. Whatever American hearts minds which I think is what the purpose of down in east was also. At her you stand right. Terry what do you make of this distinction here between. You know. Things that can be expected like litigation after Election Day that can quite potentially some result in some states in doubt. And some of the more like play important ideas of how. The president corn soup for the result. I don't think the distinction is that clean like I like we. Get a court in Florida. Voters in Florida 2018. Says we would like felons are you able to vote. So relentlessly and Florida and room circle against the governor pass the bill basically making it extremely hard. For both the vote bellows in Florida sparkly black. A court ruling. With mostly with five of the six people being trop appointees. Its lead in the distribution. And then make it very heart repellents to vote despite the Florida voters says. It is very close to being something like baltics. The idea that if Florida comes down to 100 felons being un able to vote I doubt it will be Ph.D. unit that is certainly. Legal with snow be in my view unfair inside I think this expecting it. You don't wave the Republican Party his place. Symbol limit and passed it at times in basic democratic values and norms to me means. Things that are legal based on what mr. McConnell Donald Trump Republican. Lawyers and judges do. I don't think necessarily should be respected as fair and based on using the listeners I'm not sure I think. The outcome being technically illegal in it and people objecting to it are not things like thinker irreconcilable I think there can be real questions about. Some judges made the decision there and therefore the Arctic to leave the law collecting talent it's a conspiracy theory it's against. There may be some legal diseases that are me that'll be really problematic. And will basically ballot the idea that people who are trying to vote are norm CB are telling their votes not excluding their votes of people are trying to vote master. That normal be abided by the Republican truck when Dennis. That's kind of were rice in his eye and I. And I read the Gelman cookies and actually thing. If I don't imagine my worst dreams the last four years something incident happened it didn't worse than that the Ukraine thing was really net. And so in that sense I do not I don't mind an article laying out the worst case scenario. People can prepare if Gelman article is wrong and Joseph Biden wins or Donald Trump wins. And it's a fair process in this and that's fine I don't mind articles laying out. Though the worst possibilities that are there at least I'll be thinking about them because a lot of things I'd never what happened in the last four years at happen like it. The president using tear gas to clear out an area you can walk through if not the I would guess that happened before so why do you think of these wild. Work. Let me let me let me drive. A couple of distinctions may be right. So there is no doubt that Republicans. Do whatever they can to make voting harder at least according harder for. Black and Hispanic people. People that think oh vote democratic. And in some ways. That kind of goes maybe not I noticed right but like. But like in this you are when most people in disadvantaged group and if you disadvantage probably don't have a good platform to talk about the problems that you have with being able to vote. You know the result is an apparent right. The result comes out and Biden loses Florida by one point. And he would have won it by one point if more people been allowed to vote right but like the like it's not obvious. What I'm saying is like. For trump herb bar or of the Supreme Court order rails. To take an election. That Biden obviously one. Or obvious is was on track to win. And to intervene in it. To prevent that outcome is just a much bigger order of magnitude will hopefully we. Have helped clarify it. On this podcast what exactly this that different possibilities are. That we're talking about and frankly it's been a weird conversation and to some extent by. This is the year conversations we have to have in this environment and given the things that. The talk openly says and the way that he questions or democracy. I never had a better. It's not a good place is not a good place to be like having this conversation is not a good place to be like to so everyone's clear. I don't not. The Carter I'm happy to recover her camera to someone with a group my head was pianist and throats comments first came out I was like. That's really bad but. He kept says stuff like Alzheimer. Maybe not been exacting but the idea that troubled under an idealist who was not sort of like news was not quite shocking to be regional and I that a bad. But I wondered light. You'll like you alternately think that your time to look toward its front page and put that on anyone and Izturis meadow in my guess is the front it is already designs. Like it is in a plot and they didn't bother to let the navy mistake on their part and I sort of was at my guess is some of the editors alike. Charles that the levels that it is really bad habits like goes back to Charleston is really bad or opportunities. Riddle. Harry I'm struck I had the exact same spot which is like. Yet that he says it's up all the time what has struck me is we literally had the same podcast conversation four years ago. And I think I he. I think I teared up because I was so disturbed by but I have this memory in the podcast compares that with treatment. And and now four years later. I am. I'm not laughing. To be clear but I am not I'm my reaction is frankly like. Hard to or different right like an and then I think that that's. That's how I have measuring my responses which is troubling do you think its front page news. But agree with you that like I have some understanding of why the front pages were torn up because people Ehrlich. It's kind of a thing you dozens. So I'd unit it tens of restaurants on on Twitter and I was honestly kind of surprised when it need. Dropped in our podcast generally pay should we do an emergency podcast on this. But what I'd do you think makes it significant is that. Trump kind of way winks and odds. Just a lot of anti democratic norm violating value breaking things. And oftentimes it puts us in the media in a position of sounding like conspiracy theorists when. We teach him act his word and extend the logic and show the ways in which. If it kind of like violates. That foundations of our country. So when he says it this bluntly and takes away any the innuendo. And we can report it in a way that doesn't make us sound crazy. I think that's important because. Like when you say something as plain as day as. I won't commit to the peaceful transition of power in the United States of America. That kind of putting a marker and the ground. In a wave that is mule or at least that can be comprehended in in a pretty blunt way by all people which is. Evidenced by the fact that Mitch McConnell is Cheney and a whole bunch of other Republicans felt like that it's something. I mean it's kinda like with. Cove it right you know in the day we passed 200000 American deaths from Covert nineteen. Eddy can say well it's arbitrary right to 200000 death doesn't count for anything more in the 199000. Right. But sometimes you need. Excuses to talk about sores that are important. She Millie have a very large effect right. That you tend to ignore any given day race so important to talk about those things. You know I do think Jack did trump cross a particular line. Yesterday I think yes I think yes across that line alive right. But I felt like something that we need to pause and reflect on at least as a program. Every editor Russian pirated. Without without a response I was curious like you know I was little guy an accident and not Simmons Nestor. We stings dropped it's three Yates. The fires or yen. Why likeness for example the Atlantic story Michael where I was fine story. I was sort of like. Expletive veterans ought to be totally personally in that when I didn't sort of people word that was that was sort of or over is expected. The Woodward comments yet probity levels to Burnett knows me I expected in this when. Via the palace I think it's good to get more covers and I expected but it surprised me slows note in west. I think. Well I'd like growing up in relatively traditional media where your supposed to be unbiased and and kind of like neutrality is key. And your are I think that was like occurred. Education to be honest by. The one thing we were called Rabat to advocates for it is a free press rate. And light. Challenging democracy. When kind of like your job is protected by is in a way challenging white. The foundation in which are our jobs. Rest and so. I think like it is totally fair to point out when. Leaders. Violated and challenge democratic norms and values and in one race. Even if it makes people feel uncomfortable about the world presses to. Yeah and I think that extends conversation too much like the idea that press the media reports ST. Is has traditionally been seen it like it wouldn't it. Afflict the comfortable cop comfort the afflicted. You know it's but the press is supposed to be. The voice of the people. You know because you're doing your busy day jobs we go in and ask snide questions of the pressing questions of the people in power we hear the voices people. What that did did great innovation of trump. Is that he has made the press. Seem to be the voice of the elite the voice of the powerful now I agree that there are problems with like. Representation in the press that are troubling manner. In their knowledge and like racial disparity it's disparities in the press but there is look at class thing in common elitism problem in the American press that is very real. But I do think this idea like. The presses more mark scene is speaking for some disconnected eats and powerful rather than for the people ism is a fundamental shift that is the is a problem. NC. Part American democracy which we are. Her pal happy Thursday. I think there's bail. I think we'll leave if there I expect will be having more conversations. Someone along these lines and the coming days and weeks. Although I hope some of the more dramatic things we talked about on this podcast we don't really afterward trends in the future. But and it will be professor thank you name Perry and click. Thanks urban. My name is Gail and her attorney chow is in a virtual control room you can get in touch by emailing us at podcasts at 530 dot com you can also of course greeted us with questions or comments. If you're a fan of the show leave as a rating or refute an apple podcast store. Or tell someone about us thanks for listening and. Yeah. And.

This transcript has been automatically generated and may not be 100% accurate.

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