'This Week' Transcript: Former Florida Gov. Jeb Bush, Powerhouse Roundtable

STEPHANOPOULOS: But your answer for running to president is not no anymore, correct?

BUSH: Yeah, I don't know how you get to yes by saying not no, but (LAUGH) I'll let you all figure that out.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah, I'm-- I'm not saying it's yes. I'm just-- I just want to know if the door's open a little bit. Finally, I know we're running out of time--

BUSH: But everything-- everything's viewed with a political lens in Washington and that's just the-- the nature of the beast and-- it is what it is.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, we all saw that picture of your father yesterday with former-- Canadian Prime Minister Brian Mulroney. He looked-- he looked like he was doing pretty well. How is he feeling?

BUSH: He's doing better. You know, he's got his spectacular chief caregiver, Barbara Bush, taking care of him and he's regaining his strength day by day. And he's out more. He was at the University of Texas, A&M, at the Bush School-- twice in the last two weeks, so-- we're excited that he seems to be making great progress.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That is good news. Governor, thanks very much for your time today.

BUSH: Thank you.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Back now more roundtable now. We'll reintroduce everyone. George Will is here as always, also Paul Krugman of The New York Times and Princeton, Julianna Goldman of Bloomberg News, and Senator Ron Johnson, a Wisconsin congressman, and Deborah Wasserman Schultz of Florida.

And George you heard Governor Bush there. He said it wasn't a political week, it wasn't all that rocky but he is encouraged on immigration reform.

WILL: Well, maybe, in part because he really did clarify the argument. Everett Dirksen was the leader of Senate Republicans for many years said I have my principles and one of my principles is flexibility. And Mr. Bush was flexible on treating the 11 million who are here already,

The immigration debate today is occurring after two years in which net immigration from Mexico, which is the most important source of immigrants, has been approximately zero. Most important capital is not Washington, D.C. it's Mexico City where they have their economy doing a, better than ours and b, being a magnet to help people stay there.

So what we're really arguing about is what to do about the 11 million illegal immigrants who are here already. And I think what we learned this week was any plan that does not envision as an end point citizenship for those is not going to work.

STEPHANOPOULOS: It's now bottom line, that's right.

KRUGMAN: So, I just learned something really important from this interview about Jeb Bush which is he's one of those people who says frankly just before he delivers a big whopper. So that frankly we're going to deal with the deficit by economic growth. Come on. He has no plan. Anyway, that was impressive.

It's an object lesson. I mean, he's just shown us the perils of political pandering. He wrote a book for the immigration debate the way it was a few months ago and got caught flat-footed by the way it shifted. But, look, this is moving in a favorable direction. We seem to be moving towards some...

STEPHANOPOULOS: But he felt the pressure to move toward citizenship.

KRUGMAN: That's right. That's a -- actually I have to say this is one of these things that has really been an amazing, positive development. Most of these other things -- I don't think we're getting anywhere on the budget, but on immigration I think we are.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you agree with that?

JOHNSON: The movement on the immigration front is positive and I think the bottom line is whatever we do we can't create incentives for more immigration. I think that's the bottom line.

But I want to talk a little bit about growth, because you mentioned that, as well. Let me defend it.

(CROSSTALK)

JOHNSON: But I got to get back to growth.

STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, go ahead.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Having a bit of experience with Governor Bush being former governor of my state, I think we saw quite clearly that what he did this week was get caught in a tangled web of his own evolving ambition. I'm not sure why you have to write a book on your views on immigration reform to conclude that we need legal immigration to be more cost effective and more incentive than illegal immigration.

I mean, at the end of the day we do have an opportunity for progress. We have an opportunity for progress because President Obama got 71 percent of the Hispanic vote in this country and we have for a long time needed to reach consensus on comprehensive immigration reform, have undocumented immigrants go to the back of the line, pay taxes, pay back taxes and make sure that we recognize that they are part of the backbone of our economy.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And this is one of those areas where a bipartisan group in the Senate is working to come up with a plan about eight senators working on it. The White House encouraged by this, as well.

GOLDMAN: Well, look, with Jeb Bush -- and one of the reasons you did see the brouhaha this week is because the Republican Party, whether he decides to run in 2016 or not, is looking to him for leadership on the issue and to the point when you asked him about what Senator Lindsey Graham said, you know, splitting hairs over a legal pathway, pathway to legalization, or a pathway to citizenship, that muddles the message for Republicans and it muddles policy and it doesn't send -- it sends a mixed message to Hispanics who Republicans are trying to court, as well.

The White House does see progress, but at the same time the president met this week with a religious leaders around immigration and he told them that the congress is unlikely -- the Senate is unlikely to meet the March deadline and that they're unlikely to come forward.

STEPHANOPOULOS: They're likely to come back in April.

You said it's unclear, and it is unclear whether Jeb Bush is going to run in 2016. Pretty clear after this week, though, that Rand Paul, Senator Rand Paul is going to will run in 2016, had that remarkable moment on the Senate floor, 13-hour filibuster. The point he was focusing on at first was he wanted the president to clarify the authority he had to use a drone against Americans, American citizens on American soil. Finally got a no from Eric Holder at the end of the day.

We had Eric Holder writing towards the middle of the debate. "It has come to my attention that you have now asked an additional question. Does the president have the authority to use a weaponized drone to kill an American not engaged in combat on American soil? The answer to that question is no, sincerely Eric H. Holder, Jr."

But George, this filibuster became about far more than that over the course of the day.

WILL: It started about drones but it really went on to a re-examination of Bush era foreign policy and which necessarily means executive discretion and it went on there to a general critique of executive discretion in domestic policy, as well. This really was a revival from the new guys in the Senate, one of which is sitting here, Cruz of Texas and Lee of Utah and Flake of Arizona and all the rest, who are rediscovering the roots of modern conservatism which were in the critique of executive power under Franklin Roosevelt and then Lyndon Johnson.

Traditional conservatism goes right back to the 30s when modern conservatism was born in reaction to the New Deal has been congressionally oriented and a deep suspicion going back as far as the American Revolution against executive prerogatives and George III, deep suspicion of executive power generally.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But it did reveal a big split right now inside the party. You saw Senators Lindsey Graham and John McCain going to the floor. I want to show a little bit of that. One exchange they had where Rand Paul was talking about the possibility that a president might have, for instance, taken out Jane Fonda.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. RAND PAUL, (R) KENTUCKY: No one will ever forget Jane Fonda swiveling around in North Vietnamese armored guns. And it was despicable. That's one thing if you want to try her for treason, but are you going to just drop a drone hellfire missile on Jane Fonda?

SEN. JOHN MCCAIN, (R) ARIZONA: To somehow allege or infer that the president of the United States is going to kill somebody like Jane Fonda or someone who disagrees with the policies is a stretch of imagination which is, frankly ridiculous.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: And Senator Johnson, we also saw Senator Graham go to the point and say he didn't remember a lot of his colleagues raising these questions about the drone policy under President Bush.

JOHNSON: Yeah, I don't think I want to get in the middle of that.

George is right, this is an argument about presidential power, about due process.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You did join the filibuster.

JOHNSON: Sure, because I think Senator Paul had the right -- vote or get that question answered. I mean, it was amazing it went on for 13 hours, but, you know, also at the heart of this drone activity is this administration has only captured one terrorist, detained them and tried to get information out of them. If we're going to win this war against Islamic terrorism...

STEPHANOPOULOS: I don't think that's true.

JOHNSON: There's basically been one high-value individual who's been captured and detained to get information...

STEPHANOPOULOS: There was just another one this week.

JOHNSON: Yeah, but it's been very -- basically the -- basically the process has been using the drones and killing terrorists when what we should be doing is a robust intelligence capability of actually capturing and detaining but they don't do that because they want to close down Guantanamo.

By the way, I've been there, it's a first class facility. We really need to capture people, we need to gain intelligence.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Come on. We brought Osama bin Laden to justice. We have -- the spokesperson for al Qaeda, his son-in-law, in custody this week with a 27-page statement. We've decimated the ranks of al Qaeda. We've made them essentially ineffective in the sense that they aren't in a position to be able to wreak the kind of 9/11 havoc that was their hallmark when president -- just before the mid-2000s.

We've got to make sure that we strike a balance. I'm a legislator and I jealously guard the legislative -- legislature's prerogative, but it has always been clear that the Obama administration's position has been that you cannot pursue a noncombatant American on American soil that was further...

STEPHANOPOULOS: The definition of what is a combatant at that time and this has created some questions among liberals who wish the administration could be more transparent.

KRUGMAN: That's right. There's a lot -- by the way, it was a very weird way to start the debate I mean that specifically about drones and on American soil. I mean, does that mean it's OK to kill me with a drone while I'm visiting Paris or it's OK to kill me in the United States as long as it's a sniper, but not a -- it was a peculiar way to phrase the question.

But, yeah, I mean Democrats are very much -- I think many of them are very uneasy. They really don't like this sort of Bush created weird large discretionary power on the part of the president to go after people without any kind of formal -- any of the formal machinery that we normally associate with war. It's a difficult world out there, but a lot of liberals have some sympathy with the question.

But there is I think -- can I just say I think it's a very, very strange position. Let me caricature it, which is to say it's bad for the president to go out there and kill people with drones. He should waterboard them instead? I mean, that's a very -- that suggests to me that a lot of people who were part of that filibuster have an very odd notion of what is right and what is wrong in presidential policy.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The White House also makes the argument that they have actually sharply constrained the president's power here, they just can't talk about it yet. And they're struggling to figure out what they can say.

GOLDMAN: They are struggling. And this week not only exposed fissures in the Republican Party, but among the president's own party as well. And I think it is the canary in the coal mine for the enhanced scrutiny that the president is going to find from groups like the ACLU, from human rights groups who don't want Rand Paul to own this issue. The White House is trying to figure out how they are going to answer some of these questions and trying to balance greater transparency. And you can expect to hear from the president about this because he is a constitutional law professor and he does want to make sure there are adequate checks on presidential power not just for himself, but for his....

(CROSSTALK)

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Being completely different on this subject which is that I think what was great about what Rand Paul did was that we actually had some real debate. I mean that's almost...

STEPHANOPOULOS: A real filibuster.

JOHNSON: We can all agree on that.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Yes. And in the House of Representatives we are paralyzed by time, canned speeches...

JOHNSON: All that is false.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: No, that's not false. The reality is all we ever do on both sides is give...

JOHNSON: Trust me, it is the senate that is dysfunctional.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: Well, the process doesn't allow us to have real debate.

WILL: A great American columnist, the late Murray Kempton said the similarity between American politics and professional wrestling is the absence of honest passion. And what you saw in Rand Paul was honest passion and it stood out from all as you say -- all the...

STEPHANOPOULOS: Who made the point this -- that he is capturing a part of the reason he's going to have a lot energy if he does, indeed, run for president in 2016. He's capturing this libertarian moment which does transcend party lines in some way.

WILL: It does. It goes to the decriminalization of marijuana, it goes to same-sex marriage, a general sense that the government is monitoring us and regulating us too much.

JOHNSON: And that is a great debate. You know, when people are responding to, you know, liberty and freedom and, you know, the protections of our constitution and of our amendments, the fifth amendment, I mean, that's a very good thing for American democracy.

STEPHANOPOULOS: One other big debate being sparked already is being sparked by Sheryl Sandberg, the COO of Facebook. She's got a new book called "Lean In: Women Work and the Will To Lead." Not even out yet, I guess it's out tomorrow, but it's already made the cover of Time magazine this week. And it captures some of the debate -- the flavor of the debate so far, don't hate her because she's successful.

Sheryl Sandberg is going to be on GMA tomorrow, on 60 Minutes tonight, talking about her ideas.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHERYL SANDBERG, COO FACEBOOK: They start leaning back. They say, oh, I'm busy, I want to have a child one day. I couldn't possibly take on any more. Or I'm still learning on my current job. Plenty of women are as ambitious as men, but I am saying and I want to say it unequivocally and unapologetically, that the data is clear that when it comes to ambition to lead, to be the leader of whatever you're doing, men, boys outnumber girls and women.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: And that is what is setting people off already.

Look at some of this reaction. You see some of the headlines. I want to go to you Congresswoman Schultz. You see Maureen Dowd, "Pom-pom Girl for Feminism." Washington Post's "Sandberg's Lean In Campaign Holds Little for Most Women." Forbes, "Leaning In Doesn't Fix What's Actually Broken for Working Women."

She actually asked you to give your lean in story.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: And I proudly did so. And just look at the reaction -- what the reaction to Sheryl Sandberg's book has done. It's evidence of how it is so hard for women to wear our ambition on our sleeves, to pursue our dreams, to believe that we can reach the top of any profession and that we should always shoot for the stars. That's how my parents raised me to believe that I could grow up and be anything I wanted to be. And what Sheryl Sandberg has done for little girls, my two daughters and children across -- little girls across America -- is written a book, a manifesto that says it is OK to be ambitious. It's OK to want to have it all, that balance is important, but that there is nothing wrong with frying to have a full professional life and be a leader and succeed as a woman and also having a full family life. You don't have to choose. It can be both/and.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But some of her critics, Julianna Goldman, has said it is in that Anne Marie Slaughter in today's New York Times book review suggests that she seems to be underemphasizing the kind of real constraints women feel inside the workplace, institutional constraints.

GOLDMAN: So in 2011 when Sheryl Sandberg gave the commencement address at Barnhardt College, my alma mater, a bunch of my girlfriends and I, we had for days a running email chain about how empowering this message is. And for someone like myself, I don't have children, I'm not married, I but think about my career and I think about how someday I do want to strike that balance. And so it's so important right now to be able to have role models, women having this discussion like Sheryl Sandberg, like Ann Marie Slaughter, so that we can think about how we're going to be making choices down the road.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I take it there's been a lot of resonance about this phrase she has, don't leave before you leave, which is sort of to take yourself preemptively out of the work you do. Does that strike a cord with you?

GOLDMAN: Yeah, I think about -- you know, last May getting a call from the White House saying, OK, in 24 hours you're going to be going on a secret trip to Afghanistan. If I had a family, how would I be dealing with that? How am I going to be able to have this career, pursue this path and want that someday and it doesn't mean that I can't be doing that now.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: I deal with that every day. I have three kids, twin 13-year-olds and a 9-year-old, I have a husband who is an amazing dad who understands that equal parenting is important. He has an employer, George, that understands that making sure that he is able to have a balanced family life and be there as a professional is important and those are all -- it is a team effort through employers, through parenting, through making sure that our educational process encourages girls as equally as boys and through girls having role models like Sheryl Sandberg who tell them it is OK to be ambitious and you should go for it when you can.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Where do men fit in this debate, George?

WILL: Well, Sheryl Sandberg says there's an ambition gap, and she sounds a little like bit like Professor Henry Higgins saying why can't woman be more like a man. Maybe men should be more like women in the sense that they should be more your like husband. My four biggest achievements in life are named John, Jeff, David and Victoria. They're children. And I think we all feel the same way. And when Ann Marie Slaughter causes a huge national uproar with an article in I guess "The Atlantic" saying women can't have it all after all. I have news for her, no one can have it all.

KRUGMAN: I just think, you know, the reaction is, people are saying I haven't read the book, but people are saying well Sheryl Sandberg is not talking enough about -- not talking about all the problems. Well, you know, what are you asking her for? She writing a book that is making the point that there is this -- there is -- that women, some women who could be doing much more lean back, don't do enough. She's not talking about the problems of every woman. That's OK. I mean, apparently it's a really powerful book for those who found a message in it.

We're asking -- this in itself is telling us about how difficult, how unprepared we are to have women as a full part of our society.

WASSERMAN SCHULTZ: It just means that we need to make sure that for women in every walk of life they have an opportunity to succeed and to achieve their dreams and it isn't only -- I don't think Sheryl's book is written only for wealthy women of privilege, it's written for all girls and all women who have big dreams, who we should encourage to dream big dreams and we should help make sure that the path for their ability to succeed.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Any argument there?

JOHNSON: No, listen, this is a tough balance. I've been surrounded by strong, capable women -- my mother, my wife, people that -- women I work with. It's a tough job and it's great that we have wonderful examples, power of example is great.

STEPHANOPOULOS: No question about that. And we're going to be hearing a lot more of her and a lot more of her example. Thank you all for a terrific roundtable today.

And I guess congresswoman Wasserman Schultz is going to stick around and answer your questions for today's web extra. You check it out at abcnews.com/thisweek.

And coming up next here, our Sunday spotlight. The world according to Dick Cheney. He's got a brand-new documentary on Showtime.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: The Sunday Spotlight is next, but first here's some Sunday funnies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JIMMY KIMMEL, JIMMY KIMMEL LIVE: The White House announced that starting this weekend they're canceling all tours for the foreseeable future because of sequester-related budget cuts which isn't going to cut into Joe Biden's balloon animal business. He had a fine spot, you get them right before the gift shop.

CONAN O'BRIEN, CONAN: Today, the Senate Minority Leader Mitch McConnell released a Harlem Shake video. So once again just when you think a trend is dead it's made cool again by senate minority leader Mitch McConnell.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Catch This Week online all week at abcnews.com, on Facebook, and Twitter.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: And we are back now with our Sunday Spotlight. This week it's on R.J. Cutler. The filmmaker has a new Showtime documentary "The World According to Dick Cheney."

Cheney's cooperation did not come easy.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

R.J. CUTLER, FILMMAKER: I was advised early on that the best path to getting him to participate would be patience and, indeed, it took seven months between the time that I first reached out to him and the time that he invited me to have lunch with him to discuss what my plans were for the film. He does say a lot that he is not interested in what people think about him, but it's hard to imagine that he's not invested in what his legacy is.

He is the significant figure in American history.

DICK CHENEY, FRM. VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I don't lay awake at night thinking, gee, what are they going to say about me now? I didn't worry about it a lot when I was doing it and I thought the best way to get on with my life and my career was to do what I thought was right.

CUTLER: Making a film like "The World According to Dick Cheney" you need to enter most of all with curiosity, not with expectations, not with preconceived notions, but with questions. I was very struck by his comparison of honor and duty when he was talking about enhanced interrogation and his really his dismissal of honor as a value in the face of duty.

CHENEY: Tell me what terrorist attacks you would have let go forward, because you didn't want to be mean and nasty fellow. Are you going to trade the lives of people because you want to preserve your honor are you going to do your job, do what's required first and foremost your responsibility is to safeguard the united states of America and the lives of its citizens.

CUTLER: He does not feel that there is room for compromise and that compromise is a quality that a strong leader has and I think that it raises the question of when total conviction serves a democracy and when it can problematic for a democracy. And that's a question that to me is worth considering not only in the specific analysis of the George W. Bush presidency and his relationship with Vice President Cheney and Vice President Cheney's career, but in thinking about democracy from a larger view. And so this was a major reason why we wanted to make this film and something that I was really excited about exploring.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANOPOULOS: And it is a fascinating look at a powerful man. "The World According to Dick Cheney" premieres Friday on Showtime. Our thanks to R.J. Cutler for that.

And now we honor our fellow Americans who serve and sacrifice. This week, the Pentagon released the name of one soldier killed in Afghanistan.

That is all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News with David Muir" tonight. Diane Sawyer will be in Rome all week long covering the papal conclave, that begins later in the week. And I'll see you tomorrow on GMA.

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