'This Week' Transcript: George W. Bush, Laura Bush, Mohamed Tawfik

PHOTO: George W. Bush and wife Laura speak with jon Karl

A rough transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday morning, July 7, 2013 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form and may be updated.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL (voice-over): Crash landing.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: 214, having emergency vehicles responding.

KARL: A jet down in San Francisco.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: (inaudible) splashed out, the engine roared, and then we hit really hard.

KARL: What went wrong? We have the latest details on the investigation.

Plus, chaos in the streets. Is Egypt on the verge of civil war? We talk to a top leader of the Muslim Brotherhood, a wanted man in Cairo, then the Egyptian ambassador in an ABC News exclusive.

On the road with president and Mrs. Bush, the unscripted moments, from their latest mission to Africa, and the former president takes on his critics.

BUSH: I'm trying to think of a proper word. Absurd psycho-babble.

KARL: Plus, our own Cokie Roberts on her historic conversation with two first ladies.

MICHELLE OBAMA: You can't find your toothpaste, you don't know where your kids are. That's day one.

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, "This Week" with George Stephanopoulos. Now, from Washington, Jonathan Karl.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Hello again. George is off today. Good to have you with us.

This morning we're learning new details, but there are still many unanswered questions about what happened on board Asiana flight 214 in the moments before it smashed into a San Francisco runway, its tail ripping off, the aircraft going up in flames.

Here's what we know right now. 307 people were on board the flight from Seoul. Two are confirmed dead, more than 180 injured. ABC's Cecilia Vega has been tracking all the developments all night. She joins us now from San Francisco's airport. Cecilia, it is just remarkable that so many people survived.

CECILIA VEGA, ABC CORRESPONDENT: Isn't it remarkable, Jon? Good morning to you. And especially seeing that footage of the charred remains once that smoke cleared. We are now learning at this hour more about the people who were on board that flight as well. We learned that the two victims were teenage girls from China on their way to the United States for a summer trip. We know that 30 of the passengers on board flight 214 were children. 61 people on board, American citizens, many of the -- those injured still in critical condition at this hour, recovering in the hospital.

Witnesses describe an absolutely terrifying landing. We spoke to one survivor who said this plane essentially belly-flopped as soon as it hit the runway. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The engine roared, and then we hit really hard the first time. It certainly felt like we were going back up, and then we went back down pretty hard. I was screaming, saying it's OK, help each other, don't rush, don't push, get out, get out, get out.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

VEGA: Now, overnight, Asiana's CEO denied that this crash was the result of a mechanical failure, and he went public to defend the pilots, saying that they were veterans of flying, that between them they had 10,000 hours, more than that, combined flying experience.

The NTSB investigators arrived from Washington in San Francisco overnight. This investigation, Jon, it's in very early stages. We still don't have a cause yet. What we do know is that so many people who witnessed it out here are saying it's an absolute miracle that this many people survived. Jon.

KARL: Thanks, Cecilia.

Now, for the latest on the investigation, we are joined by National Transportation Safety Board chair Deborah Hersman, who flew out to the crash scene last night.

Thank you for joining us.

Tell us, what have you learned so far, and have you spoken to the pilot yet?

HERSMAN: Well, our team just arrived on scene, actually, very late last night, around midnight. We went out and looked at the accident aircraft. We have not yet talked to the pilot; we hope to do that in the coming days. But we have obtained the cockpit voice recorder and the flight data recorder, and they have been sent back to our labs in Washington. We hope that there is good data, good information on those, and we'll audition them today back at headquarters.

KARL: So you've been out there a few hours -- true, it's still dark in San Francisco -- but based on what you've seen at the crash site, do you have any initial sense of what went wrong?

HERSMAN: Well, you know, I'll tell you, one of the things that is so obvious when you go out there is the incredible devastation to that aircraft. You've seen the photos, you've seen the footage. A lot of burn damage to the fuselage, but also we see a lot of damage to the aircraft seats and the interior of the aircraft. We are very thankful that, as a result of this crash, we only have a small number of fatalities and injuries. It could have been a lot worse.

KARL: Looking at what you've seen -- and by the way, it is just astounding to look at that plane and to think that there were two fatalities and no more. But looking at it, does this look -- are we thinking pilot error, mechanical? It seems the FBI almost immediately was able to rule out anything like terrorism.

HERSMAN: You know, it's really very early in the investigation. We just arrived on scene a few hours ago. We have a lot of work ahead of us. We have teams that will be looking at aircraft operations, at human performance, survival factors, and we'll be looking at the aircraft. We'll be looking at power plants, systems and structures. And so we really want to make sure we have a good understanding of the facts before we reach any conclusions.

KARL: So, in other words, way too early to do what the Asiana Airlines CEO did, when he said that there were no problems caused by the plane or its engines.

HERSMAN: You know, we really prefer to base statements on facts, and we've got to review the flight data recorder, the cockpit voice recorder, and document the scene before we draw any conclusions.

That being said, there's a lot of information here for us to draw on. We have crew that survived and we have potentially recorders that have a hundred parameters -- hundreds of parameters on them. And so we are very eager to begin our investigative work, and we will be providing the public factual updates throughout this time while we're on scene.

KARL: All right. NTSB chairman Deborah Hersman, thank you very much for talking with us. Good luck with the investigation.

HERSMAN: Thank you.

KARL: We'll continue tracking developments from San Francisco throughout the day. But now to the other big breaking story, the crisis in Egypt. Both sides are calling for demonstrations later today after deadly clashes this weekend, and there is still confusion over who will be named prime minister in the new, military-backed government. Egypt's ambassador to the U.S., Mohamed Tawfik, is standing by to join us next, but first, our dramatic interview with the spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood, Gehad El-Haddad. He is a wanted man in Cairo with a warrant out for his arrest, but he told ABC's Byron Pitts even after the violent crackdown against the group by the military, he and his colleagues won't back down until President Mohammed Morsi is put back in charge.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BYRON PITTS, ABC NEWS: The military, they have insisted this was not a coup.

GEHAD EL-HADDAD, MUSLIM BROTHERHOOD: Well, I don't understand what naivete can behold any person to see all the ingredients, political signs wise of a coup, and not see the coup. It's military junta on TV, tanks on the streets, troops on protests (ph). Military people shooting civilians. I mean, it's every ingredient of a full police state. I mean, what else are people waiting for?

PITTS: The leadership of the Muslim Brotherhood has been calling for the return of President Morsi. It seems, as we sit here now, that's not going to happen. So what is plan B?

EL-HADDAD: There is no plan B. Again, we will stick by our principles. It's we either return the president back to his rightful place, or we're going (ph) to have (ph) shootings in the streets.

PITTS: Why say something like that?

EL-HADDAD: Because I lived most of my life under the oppressive state of Mubarak. My father did the same under different regimes. My grandfather did the same. It's been too long and this country has been robbed of its freedoms. I'm not willing to let my son and my daughter inherit a state in that mess. I will stand in front of that tank even if it rolls on our dead bodies.

PITTS: A dead man can't enjoy democracy.

EL-HADDAD: Yes. The ones he leaves behind can.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Joining us now, Egypt's ambassador to the U.S., who was appointed by President Morsi, Mohamed Tawfik. Mr. Ambassador, thank you for joining us. You heard there from the spokesperson for the Muslim Brotherhood, they are willing to die for this, they say it's ridiculous to say that what has happened is not a coup. What is your response?

TAWFIK: What has happened is -- what has happened is that the people of Egypt have decided that President Morsi did not act during his year in office as president for all Egyptians. 22 million Egyptians wrote petitions demanding early elections. My advice to the Muslim Brotherhood is they need to acknowledge the mistakes that they made and they need to join the process. Let us look ahead to the future. There is room for everyone in Egypt, but there is no room for violence, there is no room for incitement to hatred and incitement to commit acts of violence.

KARL: But you just heard what they are saying. They are not ready to compromise on this. They say that Morsi was elected, democratically elected, and he was forcibly removed by the military, and they are willing to die to undo that.

TAWFIK: Morsi was elected democratically, I agree. I supported him. I did my best to help him to succeed. Like millions of other Egyptians, I really wished he had acted like a president to all Egyptians. But then, in the last two months, you have had a massive, a massive reaction from the Egyptian people. Over 15 million people in the streets saying this cannot go on. President Morsi did not act in the interests of the vast majority of Egyptians. He only looked at his own clique. You can't be a democratically elected president and act that way. So now, we want new elections. We're going to get new elections. We're going to get a new parliament.

KARL: How soon, how soon will we see new elections?

TAWFIK: As soon as we possibly can. But what we need to do is we need to get--

KARL: Are we talking months, weeks, months, years? How quickly does this happen?

TAWFIK: As quickly as we possibly can put it together. What we need is we need national dialogue. We need everybody to be in the process. We will not repeat President Morsi's mistakes. We want an inclusive process. This is what the Muslim Brotherhood need to understand. They need to look to the future with the rest of Egyptians. There is room for everyone. We want a truly democratic, pluralistic society.

KARL: What are you hearing from the Obama administration? Are they recognizing this new military-backed government?

TAWFIK: Everybody in the United States that I meet, everybody, without exception, they really want a democratic Egypt. They feel it's good for Egypt and it's good for the United States and it's good for the world. And we agree. And this is what we're working towards achieving. We will succeed in the end, because the people of Egypt have made a decision. They want full democracy.

KARL: But I'm asking, what is the Obama administration telling you? Because we heard from the administration that they were deeply concerned by what happened with this military ouster of Morsi.

TAWFIK: I think the main focus of all our discussions has been the future. The future means we want a democratic process, and we do not want violence. The message has to get across to the leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. We do not need more violence in Egypt. Yesterday, four teenagers were thrown off the roof of their own house by Dr. Morsi's supporters. This cannot go on.

KARL: But under U.S. law, we cannot, our government cannot give aid to a country that has been run by the military after a military coup. Do you expect the $1.5 billion in aid from the U.S. to be cut off?

TAWFIK: Egypt has not undergone a military coup and it is certainly not run by the military. Today there is an interim president in place.

KARL: This is not a coup?

TAWFIK: Absolutely not. The military -- listen, what happened was you had over 15 million people in the street. And President Morsi, he could have said, listen, my people, I listen, I hear you. But instead of that, he whipped up religious fervor among his supporters, and there was violence in the air. After more than 20 people have been killed, leaders from Egyptian parties, from Egyptian religious establishments, from the military, they came together, they said we have to stop this. Otherwise, violence will spiral out of control.

KARL: But now your government and you must be in the oddest situation. You were appointed by President Morsi, and now you are representing the government that has -- that has overthrown him. They have closed down Muslim Brotherhood television stations. They have arrested leaders of the Muslim Brotherhood. What is going to happen? Will the Muslim Brotherhood have a role in the new Egypt? What is going to happen to President Morsi? He is under house arrest right now.

TAWFIK: Well, people have the right to demonstrate peacefully. This is guaranteed by the constitution. People have the right to express themselves -- express themselves in any way that they want, without inciting to violence. If you start inciting your followers to violence, if you start whipping up religious fervor, if you start talking about jihad, about martyrdom, then many, many people are going to lose their lives. And that is against the law.

KARL: Mr. Ambassador, thank you for taking the time to talk to us this morning.

TAWFIK: Thank you very much. It is a pleasure to be with you.

KARL: In my interview with President Bush, I asked him about events in Egypt and whether in light of the Arab spring, he pushed too hard for democracy in the Middle East.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

BUSH: No. I think what you're seeing is an evolution. Democracies take a while to take root.

KARL: Has the Arab spring been a good thing or a bad thing for America?

BUSH: I think a good thing.

KARL: Even though with the tumult we've seen?

BUSH: Sure, it is tumultuous. But it's a good thing in that people are demanding their rightful place. And they overthrew a corrupt regime in Tunisia. They were unhappy with leadership that wouldn't listen to them in Egypt.

A lesson of September the 11th is, a lesson is, is that in order to have long-term security for the United States, democracies need to emerge.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: We'll have more of my interview with president and Mrs. Bush later, but joining us now, George Will; ABC's chief global affairs correspondent Martha Raddatz; David Ignatius of the Washington Post, and Michael Rubin of the American Enterprise Institute.

George, all politics is local, even here, so let me ask you the parochial question. Is what has happened in Egypt, the overthrow of the Morsi government, good or bad for the United States?

WILL: Well, it's hard to rejoice in the overthrow of democratic forms, although it's hard not to rejoice in the overthrow of a Muslim Islamist government that threatened to screw down an anti-modern tyranny that would be difficult to reverse.

That said, when this began in Tahrir Square against Mubarak, there was much talk about all the young people with their smartphones accessing the social media, missing the fact that half of Egyptians live on less than $2 a day. Smartphones are not the symbol. That is the symbol of (inaudible).

The choice today is between two flavors of tyranny. One is tyranny fueled by religious extremism, and the other is tyranny leavened by corruption, that would be the tyranny of the army. And that's what they'll get.

KARL: And Michael, you have basically applauded (ph) this coup, and you're an advocate of democracy around the world. Explain it. This is a coup, right?

RUBIN: It is absolutely coup. I'm not going to do the Washington quibbling. But what the Muslim Brotherhood was basically saying is you either jump off the cliff with us, or we shoot you. Ultimately, democratization is a process. It's not just about elections. It's about the rule of law, it is about basic human rights, it is about popular participation, and it seemed that Mohammed Morsi increasingly was saying, no, it's just about elections, it's about majoritarianism. And the Egyptian people pulled back and said (inaudible), with 20 million plus signing petitions.

There's a tweet going around among the Egyptian opposition now that the Muslim Brotherhood is like the measles. You get them once and then you're immune. Let's hope it's the case if they Egyptians push forward with a quick transition and new elections. That should be the United States policy, to ensure that those new elections take place as soon as possible.

KARL: And, Martha, that does seem to be now what they're pushing for. But you had -- the president did his meetings in the Situation Room as soon as this was happening. They came out and said they were deeply concerned. Then we saw John Kerry in Nantucket on his yacht, I mean, (inaudible) that he was working very hard.

RADDATZ; Only an hour on the yacht, apparently, even though he's only been secretary of state for about six months, he was in Nantucket.

KARL: How concerned truly is the White House with what has happened?

RADDATZ: I think they are concerned. They're concerned going forward, they are concerned about violence. But it's exactly what George said. I think there's kind of this feeling that, OK, well, the Brotherhood is not in control anymore.

The primary fear here is what happens next? And what about the violence? And does them Muslim Brotherhood, do some more radical forms of that go underground, because they see what was supposed to be the democratic process did not work for them? Democratically elected, but they -- and I have to agree with Michael on that as well -- it was the democratic process (inaudible) not upholding. So I don't think the White House is deeply upset by what happened. But again, this was a military coup. That's the line. They still have to figure out what they say about -- how can you really say with a straight face -- I mean, the Egyptian ambassador did -- that it was not a military coup? I imagine the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, Martin Dempsey, coming out one afternoon and saying, excuse me, we've pushed President Obama aside, that would be a military coup, and that's what you have there as well.

KARL: If you look at what Morsi had done, though, right, David, and I know you were very critical of Morsi and you were critical of the administration for being too tolerant of what Morsi had done. If you look at what he'd done, he had essentially dissolved the supreme court, declared his decrees above any other law in Egypt -- I mean, if a U.S. president had done that, maybe the chairman would have come in and wanted to do something.

IGNATIUS: I hope we wouldn't have had a coup. But it is true that Egypt was breaking down in the months before these events. Egypt had essentially gone bankrupt by June. It was bailed out only by an international charity. There were efforts to get Morsi to compromise, to reach out to the competition, get a broader base for governing, and he did not do it. The U.S. used all kinds of intermediaries, most recently Qatar, which has been the biggest financial supporter of Morsi. He refused that.

I think the view in the White House today is, perhaps naively, is Egypt and the United States get a do-over in Egypt. The first iteration of the after-revolution really didn't go well, by anybody's account, and now there's an attempt to try to do it again.

I think the strategy is to try to split the Islamist forces in Egypt. It's very interesting that one of the groups that supported the coup was the more conservative Salafist group known as the Nour Party to the right of the Muslim Brotherhood. And so the hope is that you can pull enough Islamists away, give them jobs in the new government. The reason that Mohamed ElBaradei will not be prime minister is because he was not acceptable to these Islamists, and they want to have them part of the group. So that's the idea, quick elections. I've heard the goal is six to nine months. Pump a lot of money from the Gulf, Saudi Arabia, UAE, into Egypt and get Egypt rolling again.

KARL: Although it is interesting. The moderates, such as they are in Egypt, do not consider this a coup. They consider this basically the military came to the aid of the people. And one of the problems the administration has had, people I have spoken to, is you label it a coup, first of all you have the legal implications, you have to cut off aid, but you also send the message to moderates in Egypt that you're once again kind of backing the Muslim Brotherhood. And the administration has taken a lot of heat over there.

RUBIN: I absolutely think you're right. The criticism I have of the administration is all too often it seems that President Obama is like a blackjack player who only wants to place his bet once he sees all the other cards on the table. And rather than studied neutrality, the impression Egyptians get is that we're always double-dealing for the other side, so every faction in Egypt assumes we're working against them, and that ultimately creates an undercurrent of anti-Americanism.

I think one of the best analogies we have to what happened in Egypt is what happened in Honduras in 2009, when the president of Honduras had violated the constitution, the supreme court ruled against him, he ignored it, and the military went ahead, sponsored a coup. The United States condemned it, but Honduran democracy is better off today for what happened after they had subsequent elections and so forth. But I would agree with George and David that the biggest untold story is what's going to happen with the Egyptian economy.

KARL: Martha.

RADDATZ: We still see as Americans democracy through our own rose-colored glasses. I really think we do. We talk about, oh, it's going to be different there, it's different in these other countries, but we still expect that. And I think that's the hardest thing for Americans to let go.

It is -- they will get a do-over here. Now, what is the next democratically elected president in Egypt think about his future? He may have to play it a little carefully there. I don't know what message that is, but it's just different, it's a different culture. This was their first democratically elected president, and he didn't abide by a democratic process, even as they wanted it in Egypt.

WILL: There was a military coup in 1952. You had six decades of military rule. A brief moment of democracy, but there's no democratic -- no democratic culture to fall back upon. I don't think there's a danger of a civil war, because a civil war isn't just two sides, but two armies, and there's only one army in Egypt.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: And a well respected army.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: But isn't the message to Islamists here is that democracy is not (inaudible)? You may get elected, you're going to be -- the election is going to be overturned.

RADDATZ: That's a danger, I think that's a danger.

KARL: And you're going to drive these people -- I mean, that's the fear, right, you drive them underground.

IGNATIUS: I think the biggest fear is that this movement of Islamists who don't get drawn into this government will submarine, they'll go underground. They are not big enough to fight a civil war. But they can replay the al-Qaeda tactics of terrorism.

I saw a Youtube video of a Salafist just enraged two days ago, saying, you know, if one in ten even becomes a suicide bomber, we will take this country down. And he meant it.

(CROSSTALK)

IGNATIUS: So that's the danger, that they and we will fall back 10 years to the period immediately after 9/11 and be back in that terrorism/counterterrorism nightmare.

KARL: And that seems to be exactly what they are promising. David, Michael, Martha, thank you very much. George, you're going to stick around.

Coming up, on the road in Africa with president and Mrs. Bush, their push to save women from cancer. Plus, he jumps into the immigration debate. And what exactly is going on here?

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I got carried away by their spirit.

KARL: It was good to watch.

BUSH: Whatever you do, don't show it on your show.

KARL: Oh, no, believe me, we won't.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. CHRISTINE KASEBA, FIRST LADY OF ZAMBIA: Many people are living, many men and women, children are living because of what President Bush has done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Praise for President Bush from Zambia's first lady as she joined him and Laura Bush for the opening of a new clinic this week. Africa has become a frequent stop for the former president, who's devoted much of his post-presidency to confronting the continent's biggest challenges.

We met up with the former first couple in Tanzania, to talk about their involvement in Africa, plus the secret surveillance program President Bush approved, and his highly unusual meeting with President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (voice-over): It was the rarest of road trips.

OBAMA: There is no question that Africa is on the move.

KARL: A meting of the presidents club thousands of miles from home.

BUSH: Laura and I are thrilled to be back in Zambia.

KARL: A commander in chief reunion, in Africa. President Obama and former President Bush traveled separately across the continent this week, but they met in Tanzania at a memorial for victims of the 1998 embassy bombing.

(on camera): It was an extraordinary moment to watch two U.S. presidents, especially you two, together here in Africa. What did you talk about when the cameras weren't rolling?

BUSH: What a big pain the press is.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: You probably agreed entirely on that.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: We just chatted about his trip. He's at the end of the trip. I remember how tired I used to get. I said, you got to be kind of worn out, he said, I had a great trip, looking forward to getting back home. And I asked him about his old girls, were they having a good time? He said, you bet, because I remember bringing our daughters on some of these trips and how meaningful it was to be with them. And we didn't sit around hashing out policy.

KARL: Did you talk to him? Not much at all?

BUSH: No, not really. He's busy. And I'm retired.

KARL: And then you had this extraordinary moment with first lady, Michelle Obama.

LAURA BUSH: That was great.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA: You have an opportunity to speak to your passions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA BUSH: I always think it looks really great for our country, for our presidents and first ladies to be together, whatever their parties are. I think it's a really good example for the world.

KARL: There's something that you and President Obama have in common. And that is that you are both, seems to me, a lot more popular in Africa than you are back home.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: I thought you were going to say because we married extraordinary women.

KARL: That's true too.

BUSH: Great.

KARL: What do you make of that? You're something of a rock star here. He had these massive crowds, like you have seen. What's behind that?

BUSH: We both represent a great country. People admire America. And Africans are thrilled with the idea that American taxpayers funded programs that save lives.

KARL (voice-over): One of those programs, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, PEPFAR, which President Bush signed into law 10 years ago is now celebrating a remarkable milestone. One million African babies born HIV-free, thanks to programs preventing mother-to-child transmission. Another 7 million with HIV are getting the drugs they need to survive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I think this is one of his crowning commitments. Because of the commitment of the Bush administration and the American people, millions of people's lives have been saved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: President Obama said this is one of your crowning achievements. Do you agree with that?

BUSH: That's nice of him. I view it as an achievement of American generosity. And it has been an extraordinarily successful program. And I was honored to be a part of it.

One reason we're in Africa is because we have found out and discovered that women are dying of cervical cancer. They have been saved from HIV through antiretroviral drugs, yet they're dying of cervical cancer. We think it's needless, and we're trying to do something about it.

KARL (voice-over): That mission brought president and Mrs. Bush this week to Livingston, Zambia, a small town near the iconic Victoria Falls, one of the seven Wonders of the World. Where with a small army of volunteers they rolled up their sleeves to refurbish and reopen a clinic.

BUSH: This room was really messy. And as you can see they cleaned it up.

KARL: As part of the Bush Institute's Cancer Prevention Pink Ribbon Red Ribbon Campaign women can now get screened there for cervical cancer. Pollah Musonda came here with her niece on opening day after recently losing her mother-in-law to the disease.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: She was the first lady screened. And was helping, is helping.

POLLAH MUSONDA: When you meet them, you feel honored. And I'm happy today that I've done it, and I'm free.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Why Africa? I mean was there a moment where this clicked for you? You visited earlier.

BUSH: There was a moment because I was the president of the most powerful, rich nation and pandemic was destroying an entire generation. And I thought it would be morally shameful not to act.

KARL: How important is Africa to your husband's legacy?

LAURA BUSH: I think it's very important. I think it's really important for people to know that the generosity of the American taxpayer has saved lives here. And that now seven million people are on anti-retroviral drugs and are living full, productive lives. They can contribute to their economy. They are not leaving orphans like what happened earlier in the big pandemic. I think it's, I think Americans should feel great about it.

KARL: President Obama has been criticized by those who say he hasn't done as much for Africa as you did. That he's neglected Africa. Is that a bad rap?

BUSH: President Obama cares deeply about whether or not people on the continent of Africa. All I can tell you is that the State Department under his leadership and under Secretary Clinton has been incredibly helpful in our efforts to deal with cervical cancer. It doesn't surprise me that presidents get criticized.

KARL: You saw that every once in a while?

BUSH: Not from you of course, Jon.

KARL: So what do you make, I know you're not into psychoanalysis. Some, these are your critics that say that all of this Africa work you're doing, that part of it is, you're trying to make up for mistakes you made in Iraq or --

BUSH: Oh yeah.

KARL: Or (inaudible) and this is -- what do you say to that?

BUSH: Let them continue to babble.

KARL: Not true?

BUSH: I'm trying to think of the proper word. Absurd psycho-babble.

KARL: I saw a journalist in Zambia asked you about gay marriage and whether it is compatible with Christian values. And you had an interesting response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I shouldn't be taking a speck out of somebody else's eye when I have a log in my own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I meant that I'm not going to answer the question then and I'm not going to answer it now in terms of the political question about whether or not, I just don't want to weigh back in the debate. I'm out of politics.

But I meant it's very important for people not to be overly critical of someone else until you've examined your own heart.

KARL: Have your views on this evolved at all? I mean you were --

BUSH: Jon, I didn't, you didn't hear my answer. I'm not going to weigh back into those kinds of issues. I'm out of politics. The only way I can really make news is either criticize the president, which I don't want to do, criticize my own party, or weigh in on a controversial issue. And I'm off the stage. Unless I'm promoting something I strongly believe in, and I believe that what we're doing in Africa is incredibly important. And will continue to do so, so long as I'm ambulatory.

KARL: Well, I've got one that you care deeply about.

BUSH: Yeah?

KARL: You tried very hard to get comprehensive immigration reform through. How big a missed opportunity will it be if it fails this time around?

BUSH: I think it's very important to fix a broken system, to treat people with respect. And have confidence in our capacity to assimilate people. It's a very difficult bill to pass because there is a lot of moving parts, and the legislative process is -- can be ugly. And -- but it looks like they're making some progress.

KARL: Because that was one of your real frustrations, was not being able to pass that bill.

BUSH: Yeah. I understand sometimes you get legislation through that you want. I was also frustrated we didn't pass Social Security reform. I thought the plan I had laid out on both was reasonable. But sometimes it takes, it takes time for some of these complex issues to evolve. And looks like immigration, you know, has a chance to pass.

KARL: Is the party going to be really hurt if they let this die?

BUSH: Well, the reason to pass immigration reform is not to bolster a Republican Party, it's to fix a system that's broken. Good policy yields good politics, as far as I'm concerned.

KARL: Your former spokesperson said, when you look at what President Obama's done on counterterrorism, this is basically the fourth Bush term. Are you surprised that President Obama has kept in place so many of your counterterrorism programs? Including those he criticized as a candidate?

BUSH: I think the president got into the Oval Office and realized the dangers to the United States, and he's acted in a way that he thinks is necessary to protect the country. Protecting the country is the most important job of the presidency.

KARL: A couple quick things before we go. How's your father doing?

BUSH: He's great. Thank you. To have him by my side during the opening of my library was the most meaningful aspect of the day. I'm grateful that President Obama and Presidents Clinton and Carter were there, but it was awesome to have President 41 there. Really awesome.

KARL: What is his legacy?

BUSH: He is a decent, honorable man who served with great distinction. Legacy is ultimately decided with time. And so to ask a president, you know, legacy is like, you know, what are your dreams? Eventually history will sort it out. I have no desire nor did he, to kind of try to battle public -- in the court of public opinion to define something that may or may not be true over time.

KARL: And lastly I saw you dancing. I'm sure you saw this as well in Zambia?

LAURA BUSH: Yes I was in the back row laughing the entire time.

BUSH: Wait a minute!

KARL: So what is it? We saw President Obama dance. I mean, Bill Clinton famously danced on an Africa trip. What is it about this continent that makes presidents get up and dance?

BUSH: In this case, I was joyful. Full of joy. To be with women who were singing songs of praise. And getting ready to enter a clinic that we had just refurbished, knowing full well, I knew full well, they didn't, I did, that the care they would get would more than likely save their lives. And so it was a joyful moment and I got carried away by the spirit.

KARL: It was enjoyable.

(LAUGHTER)

KARL: It was good to watch.

BUSH: Whatever you do, don't show it on your show.

KARL: Oh no, believe me, we won't. President Bush, Mrs. Bush, thank you so much --

LAURA BUSH: Thanks, Jonathan.

KARL: For taking time to talk with us here in Tanzania.

BUSH: Jonathan, great to see you.

KARL: Thank you, good to see you.

BUSH: You bet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Coming up, our powerhouse roundtable, ready to take on all the week's politics, including our own Cokie Roberts, who hosted a revealing conversation with Michelle Obama and Laura Bush in Tanzania, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. CHRISTINE KASEBA, FIRST LADY OF ZAMBIA: Many people are living, many men and women, children are living because of what President Bush has done.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Praise for President Bush from Zambia's first lady as she joined him and Laura Bush for the opening of a new clinic this week. Africa has become a frequent stop for the former president, who's devoted much of his post-presidency to confronting the continent's biggest challenges.

We met up with the former first couple in Tanzania, to talk about their involvement in Africa, plus the secret surveillance program President Bush approved, and his highly unusual meeting with President Obama.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (voice-over): It was the rarest of road trips.

OBAMA: There is no question that Africa is on the move.

KARL: A meting of the presidents club thousands of miles from home.

BUSH: Laura and I are thrilled to be back in Zambia.

KARL: A commander in chief reunion, in Africa. President Obama and former President Bush traveled separately across the continent this week, but they met in Tanzania at a memorial for victims of the 1998 embassy bombing.

(on camera): It was an extraordinary moment to watch two U.S. presidents, especially you two, together here in Africa. What did you talk about when the cameras weren't rolling?

BUSH: What a big pain the press is.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: You probably agreed entirely on that.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: We just chatted about his trip. He's at the end of the trip. I remember how tired I used to get. I said, you got to be kind of worn out, he said, I had a great trip, looking forward to getting back home. And I asked him about his old girls, were they having a good time? He said, you bet, because I remember bringing our daughters on some of these trips and how meaningful it was to be with them. And we didn't sit around hashing out policy.

KARL: Did you talk to him? Not much at all?

BUSH: No, not really. He's busy. And I'm retired.

KARL: And then you had this extraordinary moment with first lady, Michelle Obama.

LAURA BUSH: That was great.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA: You have an opportunity to speak to your passions.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LAURA BUSH: I always think it looks really great for our country, for our presidents and first ladies to be together, whatever their parties are. I think it's a really good example for the world.

KARL: There's something that you and President Obama have in common. And that is that you are both, seems to me, a lot more popular in Africa than you are back home.

(LAUGHTER)

BUSH: I thought you were going to say because we married extraordinary women.

KARL: That's true too.

BUSH: Great.

KARL: What do you make of that? You're something of a rock star here. He had these massive crowds, like you have seen. What's behind that?

BUSH: We both represent a great country. People admire America. And Africans are thrilled with the idea that American taxpayers funded programs that save lives.

KARL (voice-over): One of those programs, the President's Emergency Plan for AIDS Relief, PEPFAR, which President Bush signed into law 10 years ago is now celebrating a remarkable milestone. One million African babies born HIV-free, thanks to programs preventing mother-to-child transmission. Another 7 million with HIV are getting the drugs they need to survive.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

OBAMA: I think this is one of his crowning commitments. Because of the commitment of the Bush administration and the American people, millions of people's lives have been saved.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: President Obama said this is one of your crowning achievements. Do you agree with that?

BUSH: That's nice of him. I view it as an achievement of American generosity. And it has been an extraordinarily successful program. And I was honored to be a part of it.

One reason we're in Africa is because we have found out and discovered that women are dying of cervical cancer. They have been saved from HIV through antiretroviral drugs, yet they're dying of cervical cancer. We think it's needless, and we're trying to do something about it.

KARL (voice-over): That mission brought president and Mrs. Bush this week to Livingston, Zambia, a small town near the iconic Victoria Falls, one of the seven Wonders of the World. Where with a small army of volunteers they rolled up their sleeves to refurbish and reopen a clinic.

BUSH: This room was really messy. And as you can see they cleaned it up.

KARL: As part of the Bush Institute's Cancer Prevention Pink Ribbon Red Ribbon Campaign women can now get screened there for cervical cancer. Pollah Musonda came here with her niece on opening day after recently losing her mother-in-law to the disease.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: She was the first lady screened. And was helping, is helping.

POLLAH MUSONDA: When you meet them, you feel honored. And I'm happy today that I've done it, and I'm free.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Why Africa? I mean was there a moment where this clicked for you? You visited earlier.

BUSH: There was a moment because I was the president of the most powerful, rich nation and pandemic was destroying an entire generation. And I thought it would be morally shameful not to act.

KARL: How important is Africa to your husband's legacy?

LAURA BUSH: I think it's very important. I think it's really important for people to know that the generosity of the American taxpayer has saved lives here. And that now seven million people are on anti-retroviral drugs and are living full, productive lives. They can contribute to their economy. They are not leaving orphans like what happened earlier in the big pandemic. I think it's, I think Americans should feel great about it.

KARL: President Obama has been criticized by those who say he hasn't done as much for Africa as you did. That he's neglected Africa. Is that a bad rap?

BUSH: President Obama cares deeply about whether or not people on the continent of Africa. All I can tell you is that the State Department under his leadership and under Secretary Clinton has been incredibly helpful in our efforts to deal with cervical cancer. It doesn't surprise me that presidents get criticized.

KARL: You saw that every once in a while?

BUSH: Not from you of course, Jon.

KARL: So what do you make, I know you're not into psychoanalysis. Some, these are your critics that say that all of this Africa work you're doing, that part of it is, you're trying to make up for mistakes you made in Iraq or --

BUSH: Oh yeah.

KARL: Or (inaudible) and this is -- what do you say to that?

BUSH: Let them continue to babble.

KARL: Not true?

BUSH: I'm trying to think of the proper word. Absurd psycho-babble.

KARL: I saw a journalist in Zambia asked you about gay marriage and whether it is compatible with Christian values. And you had an interesting response.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I shouldn't be taking a speck out of somebody else's eye when I have a log in my own.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: I meant that I'm not going to answer the question then and I'm not going to answer it now in terms of the political question about whether or not, I just don't want to weigh back in the debate. I'm out of politics.

But I meant it's very important for people not to be overly critical of someone else until you've examined your own heart.

KARL: Have your views on this evolved at all? I mean you were --

BUSH: Jon, I didn't, you didn't hear my answer. I'm not going to weigh back into those kinds of issues. I'm out of politics. The only way I can really make news is either criticize the president, which I don't want to do, criticize my own party, or weigh in on a controversial issue. And I'm off the stage. Unless I'm promoting something I strongly believe in, and I believe that what we're doing in Africa is incredibly important. And will continue to do so, so long as I'm ambulatory.

KARL: Well, I've got one that you care deeply about.

BUSH: Yeah?

KARL: You tried very hard to get comprehensive immigration reform through. How big a missed opportunity will it be if it fails this time around?

BUSH: I think it's very important to fix a broken system, to treat people with respect. And have confidence in our capacity to assimilate people. It's a very difficult bill to pass because there is a lot of moving parts, and the legislative process is -- can be ugly. And -- but it looks like they're making some progress.

KARL: Because that was one of your real frustrations, was not being able to pass that bill.

BUSH: Yeah. I understand sometimes you get legislation through that you want. I was also frustrated we didn't pass Social Security reform. I thought the plan I had laid out on both was reasonable. But sometimes it takes, it takes time for some of these complex issues to evolve. And looks like immigration, you know, has a chance to pass.

KARL: Is the party going to be really hurt if they let this die?

BUSH: Well, the reason to pass immigration reform is not to bolster a Republican Party, it's to fix a system that's broken. Good policy yields good politics, as far as I'm concerned.

KARL: Your former spokesperson said, when you look at what President Obama's done on counterterrorism, this is basically the fourth Bush term. Are you surprised that President Obama has kept in place so many of your counterterrorism programs? Including those he criticized as a candidate?

BUSH: I think the president got into the Oval Office and realized the dangers to the United States, and he's acted in a way that he thinks is necessary to protect the country. Protecting the country is the most important job of the presidency.

KARL: A couple quick things before we go. How's your father doing?

BUSH: He's great. Thank you. To have him by my side during the opening of my library was the most meaningful aspect of the day. I'm grateful that President Obama and Presidents Clinton and Carter were there, but it was awesome to have President 41 there. Really awesome.

KARL: What is his legacy?

BUSH: He is a decent, honorable man who served with great distinction. Legacy is ultimately decided with time. And so to ask a president, you know, legacy is like, you know, what are your dreams? Eventually history will sort it out. I have no desire nor did he, to kind of try to battle public -- in the court of public opinion to define something that may or may not be true over time.

KARL: And lastly I saw you dancing. I'm sure you saw this as well in Zambia?

LAURA BUSH: Yes I was in the back row laughing the entire time.

BUSH: Wait a minute!

KARL: So what is it? We saw President Obama dance. I mean, Bill Clinton famously danced on an Africa trip. What is it about this continent that makes presidents get up and dance?

BUSH: In this case, I was joyful. Full of joy. To be with women who were singing songs of praise. And getting ready to enter a clinic that we had just refurbished, knowing full well, I knew full well, they didn't, I did, that the care they would get would more than likely save their lives. And so it was a joyful moment and I got carried away by the spirit.

KARL: It was enjoyable.

(LAUGHTER)

KARL: It was good to watch.

BUSH: Whatever you do, don't show it on your show.

KARL: Oh no, believe me, we won't. President Bush, Mrs. Bush, thank you so much --

LAURA BUSH: Thanks, Jonathan.

KARL: For taking time to talk with us here in Tanzania.

BUSH: Jonathan, great to see you.

KARL: Thank you, good to see you.

BUSH: You bet.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Coming up, our powerhouse roundtable, ready to take on all the week's politics, including our own Cokie Roberts, who hosted a revealing conversation with Michelle Obama and Laura Bush in Tanzania, next.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA: While people are sort of sorting through our shoes and our hair, whether we cut it or not.

LAURA BUSH: Whether we had bangs.

OBAMA: Whether we have bangs.

(LAUGHTER)

OBAMA: (inaudible) I didn't call that one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Do you think you get put in a box?

MICHELLE OBAMA: Absolutely.

LAURA BUSH: Yeah, a little bit.

MICHELLE OBAMA: Absolutely. I constantly get asked, especially in the first term are you more like Laura Bush or are you more like Hillary Clinton? And I'm like is that it? Those are the two choices?

LAURA BUSH: Reporters said, are you Hillary Clinton or Barbara Bush?

MICHELLE OBAMA: That's right.

LAURA BUSH: And I always just said, well, I think I'll be Laura Bush. I knew Laura Bush pretty well.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Great moment there, First Ladies Michelle Obama and Laura Bush with our own Cokie Roberts. We'll talk about that in a bit. But first our roundtable is here. Cokie of course, George is back with us. Also Democratic Strategist Donna Brazile, and ABC's Political Director, Rick Klein. Thank you all.

George, the real big political story this week was a significant setback for the White House on the health care law. Delaying the implementation of the employer mandate that requires all companies over 50 employees to provide health care. How big a setback? What's going on?

WILL: They're changing the law. We have a Treasury Secretary, we have three Deputy Treasury Secretaries, underneath whom there are 12 Assistant Secretaries. Late Tuesday afternoon they sent out one of the 12. Didn't send him out, he did a web posting. It said by the way, the law passed by Congress that makes no provision for waiving this, shall be waived.

KARL: By the way they did this while the entire White House Press Corps from Tanzania on a 20 hour a flight. But anyway.

WILL: Here's the problem. In addition to the fact that Obamacare is hideously complicated, Rube Goldberg contraption, beyond that, it puts in place perverse incentives. The employer mandate says if you have 50 or more full-time employees and until Congress changes this, which it will, it defines full-time employees as 30 hours a week, you have to pay a substantial sum for each of their health care.

Now, the employers not being dummies have said, well let's have fewer employers and make many of the employees we have part-time employees.

KARL: Working 29-1/2 hours.

WILL: What Obamacare requires for it to work, mass irrationality, both on the part of employers to ignore that incentive and on the part of young people who are supposed to pay 3, 4, 5 times more for health insurance than it would cost them to just pay the fine and ignore it.

KARL: Now Donna a lot on the left were unhappy with this. A lot of progressives said why are letting employers off the hook?

BRAZILE: Well first of all as Mark Twain once said, the death of Obamacare is greatly exaggerated. Look 96% of businesses that with 50%, 50 or more employers (sic) already provide health insurance. So this is not going to delay the implementation. It's not going to delay the law. The law will still go in effect on October 1, 2013.

With respect to the health exchanges George there's an 800 number so you don't have to text. It's 318-2596 consumer call numbers. They're already providing information for people who are confused. It is a very complex law. It's a large bill but --

ROBERTS: It is complex and when Massachusetts went through it they also, they had similar difficulties and it was just one state and a fairly sophisticated state. But look this works for the president in the long run politically. Even though he's going to take a lot of flack on it right now. Because it delays implementation until after 2014. And of the parts that people are most upset about and then there is an intervening election, as they say. So that is helpful to him.

I do think however that Republicans are telling me that they that they think that they can now rev up the conversation on Obamacare again which they love. Because they think that's a strong suit for them. And hope that immigration goes off the front pages as a result of it.

KARL: Well Rick they've tried 43 times is it, to repeal Obamacare and the administration was able to do something that the Congress has not been able to, repeal at least a part of it.

KLEIN: That's right and let's get ready for number 44 after this. Look you have even Democrats saying that implementing Obamacare has the potential to be a train wreck. Well now you have the prospect of a slow motion train wreck. And here's the thing about this particular provision, this effects thousands of workers maybe. Not the millions of workers who are going to be impacted over the long haul on this. So if you couldn't even get this piece of it right after a three year ramp up period, you're saying you need another year and a half just to put in this tiny slice of Obamacare --

ROBERTS: But it's not a tiny slice. This is huge. I mean employer mandates are by far the toughest part of it.

KLEIN: It's the toughest to implement but it's by no means the most complicated in terms of the number of people involved.

KARL: But it was going to affect more, I mean every employer because of the paperwork requirements.

ROBERTS: Right and, and who's going to, who is enforcing it? That's the other big question. And at the moment, apparently nobody. It's self, self-reported. But the, all of that is genuinely complicated. So there are policy reasons for delaying it as well as political reasons.

BRAZILE: But Cokie, what's happening right now is that HHS is giving out grants to states to open up these health care centers.

ROBERTS: Right.

BRAZILE: The individual mandate provisions will still be in effect. Young people will continue to sign up. They're learning more about this program. So it's moving. But it's not moving as fast as some people --

ROBERTS: Both you know, both sides are going after --

KARL: George quickly, then I want to get --

WILL: Young people, young people are not going to sign up if they can do elementary arithmetic, which they can. Second, why not just --

BRAZILE: If their mama tell them to sign up they're going to sign up.

WILL: That's not the way my children behave.

(LAUGHTER)

WILL: Why indeed not suspend the individual mandate? Because the law doesn't provide it? The law means nothing to these people? And by the way, this is why Cokie, this is going to affect the immigration debate. Because the House Republicans are going to say, no matter what we write in the law, this administration will waive any provision it doesn't like.

KARL: OK so let's get to immigration because we have a big week coming up. And you now seem to have a concessive of virtually the entire Republican establishment that the immigration bill should pass. We heard from President Bush, Scott Walker weighed in on this. Even Jan Brewer out in Arizona is in favor of the Senate bill. But Rick, it's not going to fly in the House.

KLEIN: That's right. The establishment and the House of Representatives are not on the same page on this, there's no question about it. We all know the central question. It's going to come down to Speaker Boehner. Does he want to go against the will of his own conference in the interest of the greater good of the Republican Party and a policy interest? And ultimately does he want to sacrifice his Speakership on this? And there are a lot of issues that you can foresee John Boehner be willing to go down in flames over. Immigration reform, it's hard to imagine that being on that list.

ROBERTS: And his argument would be, look, my main job is to hold on to the House of Representatives. And the Republican establishment, whatever that is, does certainly want to hold on to the House of Representatives. Without it, they would be powerless in Washington right now. And so, Boehner's, if Boehner's calculations is, that the only way that you can do that is to sink this bill, if it has legalization in it, then that's what's going to happen.

BRAZILE: But they're getting pressure from the business community --

ROBERTS: I know, but --

BRAZILE: The Chamber of Commerce, the clergy, evangelicals and Majority Leader Cantor said that they're going to do a piecemeal approach. They're going to look at what Homeland Security Committee and Judiciary Committee passed. And try to come up with a bigger and better border security package.

KARL: They're going to do everything except for citizenship.

ROBERTS: But they can --

KLIEN: That's right.

KARL: But tell me, the White House doesn't sign a bill that doesn't have a path to citizenship.

BRAZILE: Absolutely. And the Senate Democrats and the Republicans I mean, we have a bipartisan model that passed in the Senate that the House should take up. But they're not. What the Democrats in the House will do is go after 24 to 25 Republicans to see if they can get them to support a more moderate package and not the extreme package --

WILL: The number --

KARL: George you're shaking your head.

WILL: The number of Republicans who might lose their seats because they oppose this immigration bill is a vanishingly small, it's just not going to happen that way. Furthermore, don't look at July, look at August. Four Augusts ago, Congress was in the midst of another comprehensive reform, that time of health care. The Republicans went home and the Democrats went and held town meetings and uproar broke out! And when they go home this August, the Republicans are going to do their town hall meetings --

KARL: I think they will pass this before they go home.

ROBERTS: I don't think July. They're coming, they have a big conference on the 10th which is just in a couple of days.

BRAZILE: Right.

ROBERTS: And they'll decide that then.

KARL: So Cokie I want to move on to the extraordinary interview you had with First Ladies Michelle Obama and Laura Bush. And I've got to say, these two really, genuinely seem to like each other. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: Tell us why, why was this important to you? To come and have this conversation?

MICHELLE OBAMA: It's because I, I like this woman.

(LAUGHTER, APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ROBERTS: That was a moment. That was quite a nice moment.

KARL: You wrote the book on first ladies.

ROBERTS: Well...

KARL: What did, literally. So what did you learn?

ROBERTS: Michelle Obama wanted to be there and have a conversation with Laura Bush. She did not want to make a speech. She could have taken over that conference that the Bush's had set up. It was a First Ladies of Africa Summit. And if she had come in and made a speech, she would have gotten all the headlines.

And instead she wanted to have a conversation with Mrs. Bush and just talk about what it's like to be a First Lady and to exercise the power of the First Lady. And it was very important to those women in Africa. Because they feel strongly that often when somebody is out of office, that person goes to jail or gets shot.

KARL: Right.

ROBERTS: And the notion of seeing these two women from different parties who had succeeded, one succeeded the other, be there together, be civil and be friendly, beyond civil, was a very important message to send.

KARL: Do you think we're going to see a more assertive Michelle Obama in the second term?

ROBERTS: Well I think she's been assertive in her own way. You know, when they made that crack earlier about being put in boxes. You know, that's true. And everybody says, oh she's just doing these namby-pamby things. What she's doing is very significant.

KARL: All right thank you very much, Cokie, Rick, Donna, George, Rick, appreciate it. Next up, the haunting legacy of a tiny island off the coast of Africa.

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