TAPPER: It's Sunday, Katrina. When's she going to do that?
VANDEN HEUVEL: But -- but -- but, George, seriously, the -- the messaging out of the White House is clicking into gear. The idea of a responsibility tax on these banks, which have cost people jobs, homes, I think it's a test for the tea baggers moving forward, too. Which side are they on? Are they on the side of the people, as they claim? Or are they...
CARLSON: ... will you stop with the tea baggers thing? I mean...
VANDEN HEUVEL: ... that tax cuts create jobs.
CARLSON: Come on.
WILL: ... tax on banks stimulate bank lending? I mean, I thought the...
VANDEN HEUVEL: It's to retrieve money to pay back Main Street to invest...
WILL: If it's retrieve TARP funds, you should understand that most of the TARP funds that are not coming back to the government are in Detroit. And I don't think I've heard you...
VANDEN HEUVEL: I don't -- I think that's a fact check.
TAPPER: But there -- there is -- there is an excellent point to be made about the fact that -- that if Scott Brown wins, health care is really in trouble.
VANDEN HEUVEL: I agree. I think we should abolish the filibuster. But, no, I mean, we are...
TAPPER: But that's -- but that's...
VANDEN HEUVEL: That is a serious issue.
TAPPER: And here's the question.
VANDEN HEUVEL: And -- and it's...
TAPPER: Why would President Obama's signature issue that he's been working so hard, that Ted Kennedy clearly would have been behind, why is it so unpopular in Massachusetts?
VANDEN HEUVEL: I'll tell you. There are several reasons. One, just nationally, some of it is the way, I think, President Obama managed it. It took too long. And part of the reason it took too long is this is an enormous social piece of legislation.
But he wasn't bold enough at various points. He didn't get involved enough. He took too many lessons out of the Clinton administration.
But let us not forget: We are living in a period when bipartisanship has to go out the window. You have a Republican Party which wants to cripple this administration. And part of that is bringing down health care reform. And we are living through a period -- and Tucker and George may disagree -- I would argue of modern, unprecedented rhetoric savagery, where you have night in, night out an illegitimate president who wasn't born in America. People believe this.
CARLSON: Can I just state the obvious facts? And that is that Democrats have a 60-seat majority in the United States Senate. They have an overwhelming majority in the House. They can do whatever they want. The debate is not between Republicans and Democrats. It's within the Democratic caucus.
VANDEN HEUVEL: But the House is different, because the rules...
CARLSON: OK, but let's just be real. They run everything. That's not a criticism. It's an observation of fact.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Come on.
BRAZILE: Democrats are as diverse as the party. And, unfortunately...
CARLSON: It's not between the tea baggers, whomever -- whatever they are. It's between the Democrats.