'This Week' Transcript 12-1-24: White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, Sen. Mike Rounds, and Gov.-elect Josh Stein

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, December 1, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

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ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

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JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Trump's retribution.

KASH PATEL, DONALD TRUMP’S NOMINEE FOR FBI DIRECTOR: I am going to go on a government gangster’s manhunt in Washington, D.C., for our great president. Who's coming with me?

KARL: The president-elect names Kash Patel to serve as FBI director. A loyalist who said Trump's political opponents should be very afraid. And may be the toughest confirmation battle yet.

Transition diplomacy.

JUSTIN TRUDEAU, CANADIAN PRIME MINISTER: He would be actually not just harming Canadians, he’d actually be raising prices for American citizens as well.

KARL: Donald Trump threatens new tariffs on Canada and Mexico. President Biden faces multiple conflicts abroad and pushes for a Middle East breakthrough.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is designed to be a permanent cessation of hostilities.

KARL: Russia hammers Ukraine’s power grid, plunging over a million people into darkness, with freezing temperatures settling in.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: We know our enemy. We know that he will not stop.

KARL: Our guest, White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, with reaction from Republican Senator Mike Rounds, a key member of the Intelligence and Armed Services Committees.

Plus, North Carolina Governor-elect Josh Stein, a Democrat who won big where Kamala Harris lost. Rick Klein breaks down the House Republicans' razor-thin majority. And the roundtable on the latest surprise from Donald Trump.

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ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK. I hope you all had a great Thanksgiving.

If there was any doubt that President-elect Donald Trump intends to follow through with his promises of radical change and retribution, both here at home and abroad, those doubts have been erased. On the home front, the big move came just last night when Trump announced he intends to make Kash Patel, one of his most fervently loyal defenders, as the director of the FBI. He'll first have to fire the current director, Chris Wray, who was chosen by Trump back in 2017, and whose term isn't up for more than two years. Patel will face an especially contentious confirmation battle.

Patel is so controversial that when President Trump talked about making him the deputy FBI director in 2020, then Attorney General Bill Barr said it would happen, quote, “over my dead body,” according to his memoir, adding, quote, “Patel had virtually no experience that would qualify him to serve at the highest level of the world's preeminent law enforcement agency. The very idea of moving Patel into a role like this showed a shocking detachment from reality.”

Again, that was Bill Barr objecting to Patel becoming the deputy FBI director. Now Trump has announced his intention to make him the director.

Patel has served as both a public defender and a federal prosecutor. He also served on Trump's National Security Council and in the office of the Director of National Intelligence. After the 2020 election, Patel was dispatched to the Pentagon. As I previously reported, he used his post as chief of staff to the acting defense secretary to attempt to chase down one of the most far-fetched election conspiracy theories, that Italian spy satellites were used to flip votes from Trump to Biden.

After Trump left the White House, Patel took up the cause of fighting back against anyone and everyone in law enforcement who was investigating Donald Trump. He even wrote a children's book about Trump's legal troubles called "Plot Against the King." But it's the book that Patel wrote for adults, "Government Gangsters," that gives an idea of what he would attempt to do as the FBI director. He writes that federal law enforcement agencies must be brought to heel by firing the top ranks and prosecuting to the fullest extent of the law anyone who in any way abused their authority for political ends. “The FBI has become so thoroughly compromised that it will remain a threat to people unless drastic measures are taken,” Patel wrote, adding Democrats, “should be very afraid.”

Trump has also been shaking things up and rattling nerves on the world stage. He began the week by threatening to immediately impose steep tariffs on America's three largest trading partners when he takes office on January 20th. That threat prompted a call to Trump from Mexico’s president and a trek to Mar-a-Lago by Canada's prime minister.

Of course, America has only one president at a time. But with big changes coming, the rest of the world isn't waiting until Trump moves into the White House. The man still in the White House, President Biden, urged Trump to reconsider his latest tariff threats.

Biden has had a busy week too, facing threats from Putin and Russian advances in Ukraine while brokering a ceasefire this week between Hezbollah and Israel. The Biden White House is trying to leverage the Hezbollah deal to get a ceasefire and a hostage release deal with Hamas in Gaza. As Peter Baker put it in "The New York Times," quote, “this is America in the time of transition, two presidents leading the country in two different directions, one officially, the other unofficially, one representing the past and present, the other, the future. Whipsawed and maybe just a little confused, foreign leaders are left to calculate whether it makes sense to try to get something done with the outgoing leader or brace for the reality of his successor.”

And we begin with White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.

Jake, thank you very much for being here with us.

I want to get to all that’s happening around the world, but first I've got to ask you about the news Trump made overnight appointing Kash Patel as the director of the FBI, or his intention to nominate him for that position.

Patel listed you in one of his books as members of the executive branch deep state, and one of the 60 corrupt actors of the first order.

Does this nomination concern you?

JAKE SULLIVAN, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, I'm not going to speak to President-Elect Trump’s nominees. I'll let him and his transition team speak to that.

I would just point out what the Biden administration did in approaching the question of the FBI director. As you know, FBI directors are appointed for 10-year terms. And the idea being that they extend beyond the term of any given president. And so we inherited an FBI director who actually had been appointed by President Trump, Director Chris Wray, who’s continued to serve in that role through the four years of the Biden administration and served with distinction, served entirely insulated from politics, where the partisan preferences of the current sitting president of the United States.

This is a good, deep, bipartisan tradition that President Biden adhered to. And that’s really all I can say.

As for me personally, I got 50 days left to continue to try to protect this country from threats, to continue to advance our national interest. I'm going to spend every day doing that and not worrying about other things.

KARL: And – but this is somebody who’s talked about retribution, has talked about the need – he’s suggested even prosecting – he’s saying that the Democrats, quote, “should be very afraid,” and again named you as one of the corrupt actors of the first order.

So, put aside the nomination to be FBI director. Does this kind of talk concern you about what’s going to happen after January 20th?

SULLIVAN: Well, look, like I said, John, I can’t worry about after January 20th. I have to worry about until January 20th. And the full spectrum of challenges and opportunities the United States has to advance our national interest. I'm the national security adviser of the United States. My job is to try to protect this country, to try to reduce the capacity of our adversaries, increase the capacity of our allies. We’ve got a lot of work to do. And, frankly, we’re going to try to do that also in a way where we have a smooth transition with the incoming Trump team.

And I have to say that I've been gratified so far by the coordination I've been able to have with the incoming Trump team. They seem focused also on a smooth transition because they want to be able to hit the ground running.

So, that is going to preoccupy me between now and January 20th. Nothing else.

KARL: Yes, how is that working because, on the one hand, you, obviously, have a lot on your plate. You just had the – the ceasefire deal with Hezbollah. You’re trying to work out something in Gaza with – with Hamas. You’ve got, obviously, all that’s happening in Ukraine.

At the same time, Donald Trump is meeting with Prime Minister Trudeau. He’s got calls with the Mexican president, other world leaders. How does this work? I mean basically you don’t have two presidents at once, but you’ve got world leaders trying to work with both an incoming and an outgoing president. How does that coordination work?

SULLIVAN: Well, transitions always have a little bit of awkwardness to them because you have an incoming team with a different policy than the outgoing team. And, of course, leaders around the world have to begin adjusting to that.

On the other hand, there is one president at a time. And that president is President Joe Biden, who, in fact, is leaving this evening on a foreign trip to Angola, who has just negotiated a ceasefire in Lebanon, who is working actively on a ceasefire and hostage deal in Gaza, who met with Xi Jinping a week ago and made a very important statement about AI and nuclear weapons.

So, we are working through a lot every single day. We just did a – you know, got some Americans home from China. So, we’ll keep doing our job day in day out, but we are going to work closely with the incoming team because so many of these challenges are -- are not going to change fundamentally on January 21st. They’re still going to be there. And we want to make sure that baton gets passed very smoothly.

So far, I have to say, I think the – the coordination and the work together has been in good faith, has been professional, and has been designed to try to insure that smooth transition.

KARL: What are you telling your Ukrainian counterparts about American support in 51 days after Biden leaves office?

SULLIVAN: Well, first, what I'm saying is, we are going to do everything in our power for these 50 days to get Ukraine all the tools we possibly can to strengthen their position on the battlefield so that they’ll be stronger at the negotiating table. And President Biden directed me to oversee a massive surge in the military equipment that we are delivering to Ukraine so that we have spent every dollar that Congress has appropriated to us by the time that President Biden leaves office. So, that’s, first and foremost, what we’re focused on.

And then I've encouraged the Ukrainian team to engage the incoming team, as well as to engage all of our allies and partners because, again, on January 21st, the war in Ukraine doesn’t just go away. Obviously, the new team will have its own policy, it’s own approach. And I can’t speak to that. But what I can do is make sure that we put Ukraine in the best possible position when we hand off the baton.

KARL: Well, let me ask you about that. “The New York Times” reported on the various measures that you’re taking to shore up Ukraine's defensive -- defenses at this critical moment. And the article said this, quote: Several officials even suggested that Mr. Biden could return nuclear weapons to Ukraine that were taken from it after the fall of the Soviet Union. That would be an instant and enormous deterrent, but such a step would be complicated and have serious implications.”

Is -- is that something that’s under consideration, that’s under consideration, that the U.S. would return nuclear weapons to -- to Ukraine? Is that something you’re considering?

SULLIVAN: That is not under consideration. No. What we are doing is surging various conventional capacities to Ukraine so that they can effectively defend themselves and take the fight to the Russians, not nuclear capability.

KARL: And are you seeing that there’s -- there’s talk about a peace process that, you know, we -- Trump has now appointed General Kellogg to be his envoy to Russia/Ukraine peace process. And the idea here is that Ukraine would give up some of its land in exchange for peace.

Are you seeing any indication that Zelenskyy is willing to do that?

SULLIVAN: Look, the key thing, from my perspective, is that Ukraine determine its destiny and its destiny, not be imposed by outside powers, including the United States.

Now, President Zelensky has made public comments about the need for this war to end at the negotiating table. Meaning, he knows ultimately there’s going to have to be a negotiation. And, in fact, over the course of 2024, we’ve been very engaged with President Zelenskyy and his team on what the shape of that negotiation could look like. And the key thing for this year was to try to give Ukraine as many tools as possible so that they could go into that negotiation and feel they could achieve the outcome that they would like to see.

Now, as far as territory or security or other elements, I'm not going to speak to that publicly. I think President Zelenskyy should be the one who chooses to speak to that because, ultimately, it’s his country we’re talking about.

KARL: There’d been a report that Trump had spoken with Vladimir Putin. I guess it wouldn’t be surprising. He’s speaking with a lot of world leaders. But it’s been denied by both the Kremlin and by Trump. Are you -- do you think that call happened? Do you have any knowledge of that?

SULLIVAN: I really don’t know. I – I read it in the newspaper. I also saw the denials. So, I -- I, honestly, can’t speak to it one way or the other.

KARL: OK. And let me ask you about another big one. You -- the -- the president’s made it clear, he wants to have a ceasefire and hostage release deal with Hamas for Gaza. He’s also suggested that he wants, before he leaves office, to have a broader Middle East peace deal that would involve a pathway to a Palestinian state and peace between Saudi Arabia and Israel.

Do you really think that’s something that you could do in the next 50 days?

SULLIVAN: What I would say is that the first step is getting the ceasefire and hostage deal. If we can get that into effect, then the possibilities for a broader, diplomatic initiative in the region along the lines that you just described really open up. And we will use every day we have in office to try to generate as much progress towards that end as possible.

So, we are determined to try to move rapidly, to get those hostages home, get a ceasefire in place, and then move on to this larger deal that we would like to see consummated as soon as possible, including, if possible, while President Biden is still president.

KARL: OK, we’ve got to go, but before you leave, I have to ask you, are you prepared for life as a congressional spouse? Your wife, of course, will be sworn in as a member of Congress in January.

SULLIVAN: Well, I just have to say, I am so proud of Maggie. And she is going to serve New Hampshire and serve the country just exceptionally well. And I'm looking forward to supporting her every step of the way.

KARL: All right, Jake Sullivan, thank you very much.

I'm joined now by Republican Senator Mike Rounds of the great state of South Dakota.

Senator Rounds, thank you for being here.

I want to start with the news about Kash Patel. Were you surprised that Donald Trump said that he wants to make him the director of the FBI? Does that concern you?

SEN. MIKE ROUNDS, (R) SOUTH DAKOTA & (R) ARMED SERVICES & INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEES: Well, every president has the opportunity to decide who he wants to offer a nomination for. So, all of the nominations coming through, the president has the right to do. It doesn't surprise me that he will pick people that he believes are very loyal to himself. And that's been a part of the process. Every president wants people that are loyal to themselves.

But I’ll also share with you that Chris Wray, you know, who the president nominated the first time around, I think the president picked a very good man to be the director of the FBI when he did that in his first term. When we meet with him behind closed doors, I’ve had no objections to the way that he's handled himself. And so I don't have any complaints about the way that he's done his job right now. And, once again, the president has the right to make nominations, but normally these are for a ten-year term. We'll see what his process is, and whether he actually makes that nomination. And then, if he does, just as with anybody who is nominated for one of these positions, once they’ve been nominated by the president, then the president gets, you know, the benefit of the doubt on the nomination, but we still go through a process, and that process includes advice and consent, which, for the Senate, means advice or consent sometimes.

KARL: Yes, Wray was confirmed for a ten-year term, as you pointed out. You just said you have confidence in him. Is it a mistake to fire him? I mean why – why is Trump determined to fire the FBI director, let alone one that he nominated in the first place?

ROUNDS: You know, look, we – the – the one thing that we've learned is, is we don't speak for the president-elect. We simply respond when we're asked questions about what we're going to do. The message, and one that I feel very strongly about, is, is that there is a constitutional separation. The founding fathers did that for a reason. We will – you know, we accept that the president should have the people that he wants in his cabinet, and on his team. Every president wants that. We give them the benefit of the doubt. I did that when Biden came into office. I did that before when – when President Trump was elected. I looked the same way at it when President Obama made nominations. I will do that again. And I think the vast majority of the members of the Senate will do the same thing. They will give a benefit of the doubt to the president with any one of his nominees, but then we have a constitutional role to play in that we – we provide advice and consent. And, once again, that can be sometimes advice, sometimes it is consent. But that's the process. The process has worked. And I expect the process to continue on.

And look, there will be open hearings. There will be an opportunity for these individuals, all of his nominees, to come before the members of the Senate. And most of the times we meet with them privately beforehand. And then once that is completed, we’ll go before committees. The committees will have an opportunity to question them. The vast majority of those will be in public. Some of it will be behind closed doors, but the vast majority of them will be in public. We’ll get an opportunity and the American people will have an opportunity to see both the questions that are raised and the answers that these nominees respond with. And then we'll move forward.

KARL: All right, let me ask you about the other thing – one of the other things Donald Trump did this week. That is the threat to impose steep tariffs on Canada, Mexico, China. Do you think he's going to go through with these – with these threats, or is this a negotiating tactic?

ROUNDS: Look, the president's a businessman. A successful businessman. And, once again, he has not imposed them. He doesn't have the authority yet to impose them. But he is putting them out in front. And now he's got everybody coming in and talking with him, talking about the concerns that he is expressing because he really does believe that tariffs can be a great tool for making sure that our economy grows and thrives.

One more thing. The one thing that I have noticed time and again is, is he cares about kids. And what he has seen at the southern border, he's frustrated with. He doesn't like to see people suffering. He's seen what's happened as these migrants have come north. He wants it to stop. He thinks it's wrong. And he thinks that by suggesting these tariffs right now, he's going to get the attention of the leaders in the other countries.

You know, I don't think there's anybody out there arguing that we've got to fix our borders. If we can do that with tariffs, you're not going to find very many people in the United States that are going to disagree with him on that.

On the other hand, you know, look, I'm from South Dakota, you know that. Look, we're an ag state. When I talk to my farmers and to my ranchers about that, they're concerned about retaliation. You know what they tell me time and again? The borders are important. We're going to do our part as well.

If we've got to have tariffs, so be it. We're going to support the president. Let's get this thing rolling again, and I mean, look. They believe in his America first approach. We want to give him an opportunity to be successful in that.

KARL: All right. Turning to Ukraine, you made some interesting comments recently casting doubts about the possibility of a -- of peace talks between Ukraine and Vladimir Putin, any kind of an agreement that would involve giving up territory in exchange for peace. Let's take a listen to what you said.

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ROUNDS: It's time to take a hard look at this thing and really ask ourselves, do you believe that this tyrant, if you offer him part of a free country, do you think he's going to stop? As much as I would love to say that there is a path towards a peaceful resolution to this by negotiating with this tyrant, I suspect that we may be deceiving ourselves.

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KARL: But this is exactly what Trump's trying to do, right? He's named an envoy for these peace talks, which obviously haven't started or haven't been committed to by either side yet, but the framework appears to be exactly what you just said is problematic which is Ukraine giving to Russia territory that it has taken by force in exchange for peace.

ROUNDS: I don't think that we should deceive ourselves. I think Mr. Putin is a tyrant. I think dealing with him is going to be extremely difficult. I give -- I give President Trump credit for saying that he wants to end this. He wants to end the bloodshed. He doesn't like the suffering that's out there. I just think this is going to be an enormous task for anybody to negotiate with Putin.

Look. I don't think this guy is interested in stopping anywhere that he's at right now. I think we have to recognize that. So I think the president has got a huge job on his hands if we're going to be successful in stopping Putin. I think wherever we look, Mr. Putin is going to do his best to find a weakness. If he finds a weakness within NATO, he's going to try to utilize that to his advantage.

I think the fact that he has looked elsewhere in the world for opportunities to create problems and mischief for us, I think he's done that. So I think, and once again, not taking anything away from a president who wants to find peace, I just point out just how big of a project this is going to be for any president to be successful in negotiating with this tyrant, and I, you know, I wish him the best. I hope he is successful, but if you compare that, the fact that the president wants to end this with what's happened on the Biden administration, I think the fact that the Biden administration has shown some real weaknesses throughout the world.

The world is on fire, and people just simply haven't respected our leadership role. You can't win -- you can't slow down these fires across the country unless you lay out your dominance with the capabilities that you have, and the fact that you're going to fight for freedom. So, look, I want to see President Trump be successful in this. I want to see Ukraine with its sovereignty protected. I just think it's going to be a major, major task to overcome what Putin is offering, and I just simply don't know that we can trust this guy to make a deal and keep it.

If you take a look back, look, we made a deal with Ukraine. The United States was one of the parties. Russia was one of the parties, and that's when they gave up their nuclear weapons. It's not the United States that's causing the problems there in Ukraine right now. It is Russia going back on their written commitment to help protect the lines that were drawn in 1994. So once again, it is Putin going back on his country's word of honor.

I don't think you can trust a guy that doesn't honor their word of honor.

KARL: All right. Well, you're perfectly clear about that.

Senator Rounds, thank you very much for joining us.

When we come back, I'll talk to a Democrat who won big where Kamala Harris lost. We're back in just two minutes.

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JOSH STEIN (D), NORTH CAROLINA GOVERNOR-ELECT: Tonight, the people of North Carolina resoundingly embraced a vision that's optimistic, forward-looking and welcoming, a vision that's about creating opportunity for every North Carolinian. We chose hope over hate, competence over chaos, decency over division.

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KARL: That was Democrat Josh Stein on election night after winning the governor's race in North Carolina, a battleground state that Donald Trump won by three points.

Governor-elect Josh Stein joins me now.

Thank you, Governor-elect, for being here.

Let -- let me ask you. I understand you were up against a deeply flawed candidate, but you won, what was it, by 15 points or so, at the same time Harris was losing. Why did your message resonate in North Carolina so much more than Kamala Harris's?

STEIN: Well, I’m incredibly honored that the voters of North Carolina have bestowed the governorship to my responsibility. It's incredible privilege and I’m eager to get it to work. I think the voters had a really clear choice.

Our vision was positive and forward-looking. Truly, it was about fighting for every person. We wanted to make sure that people live in safe neighborhoods free of drugs and violence. We want kids to go to excellent public school schools we want people to have real economic opportunity.

And that applies to all people, even folks who don't go to college. They should be able to get good paying jobs that can support a family. And, of course, people's personal freedoms need to be respected, people's right to vote, women's right to be able to make their own reproductive health care decisions, and the choice was very clear.

I think the fact that I had a track record of delivering for the people of North Carolina as their attorney general helped give them confidence in knowing that I wasn't just speaking words but that I would work hard every day to deliver.

KARL: So -- so what did the Democrats fail to do on a national level? I mean, it sounds similar to what -- what Harris was talking about. Where did they -- where did they fall short?

STEIN: The vice -- the vice president ran a strong campaign in North Carolina. I think she ran out of time. She was -- a short, abbreviated campaign, it was a tough national mood as evidenced by the fact that Trump won all of the swing states. So she worked hard.

But the voters here in North Carolina embraced something very positive and it wasn't just our win, which was the strongest win in 44 years for a governor -- a Democratic governor candidate, but we defended the secretary of state and attorney general's office. We picked up the lieutenant governor and superintendent of public instruction. We've likely prevailed in the only Supreme Court race. We won the only congressional competitive governor -- competitive congressional race in the south and we broke the super majority in the state house.

So, it was an unfortunate night for Democrats across this country but North Carolina was a bright spot and we're proud of what we accomplished here.

KARL: Democrats, during the campaign, spoke in pretty dire terms about what would happen if Trump won. So, now, he's won. What -- what are your expectations?

Let me -- let me ask it this way, what would you say is your greatest hope and your biggest fear about what's to come in a second Trump presidency?

STEIN: Well, I want to do everything I can for the people of North Carolina. And right now, folks in western North Carolina are really suffering. Hurricane Helene left unimaginable devastation in its wake, many lives lost, thousands of buildings destroyed, homes and small businesses, infrastructure, critical infrastructure, water and sewer, wastewater, highways, parts of Interstate-40 fell into the river.

So we are looking at multi-billion dollars, $53 billion in damages. We have an appropriations request before Congress for $25 billion. I was up there in Washington two weeks ago with Governor Cooper, meeting with Senators Tillis and Budd and a number of Congressional officers. And I am eager to work with the Trump administration to deliver for the people of western North Carolina who need the help of the federal government and our state government to get back up on their feet.

KARL: And your biggest fear?

STEIN: Well, I want somebody who respects the rule of law and his nomination for the FBI does not give me confidence that that's a top priority.

KARL: And you -- one of the big issues related to that in a way is Trump's promise to have a mass deportation of undocumented immigrants. Is North Carolina going to cooperate with that -- with that deportation plan?

STEIN: Well, one thing about President Trump is he says a lot, and then you don't know what the actual policy behind the bluster is going to be. And so I have to wait to see what he actually proposes as opposed to what he says through Twitter or any other social media platform.

KARL: But, you don't rule out working with him to deport some of those undocumented immigrants?

STEIN: Right now, if folks break the law and harm North Carolinians, they get deported as it is. Folks who are law abiding, deporting them is not a priority at all. They are instrumental to our communities. They're instrumental to our economy.

KARL: All right, Governor-elect Stein, we're out of time. We look forward to continuing the conversation once you get sworn in as governor. Thank you very much for spending time with us this morning.

Coming up, what could the historically narrow GOP House majority mean for Trump's first 100 days in office? Rick Klein is here with the breakdown when we come back.

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REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): The agenda will be fast-paced. The first hundred days will be very full because we have a lot to fix. And as I've said many times, I believe President Trump could be the most consequential president of the modern era because we have to fix everything.

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KARL: That was House Speaker Mike Johnson discussing the Republican Party's ambitions for the first hundred days with full control of Congress. But the numbers are going to make that extremely difficult, particularly in the House, where the GOP's tight margin is set to get trimmed further as at least two Republican House members leave Congress to serve in Trump's administration.

Our Washington bureau chief and political director, Rick Klein, is here to break down the latest.

Rick, some very close numbers here.

RICK KLEIN, WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, Jon, if the current results hold, then Republicans will have secured a 220-215 advantage in the next Congress. That's actually two more Democrats than who serve right now in Congress despite those very tough redistricting maps and despite the coat tails of Donald Trump and him winning the popular vote, as well as the Electoral College. That by itself would be the tightest governing majority in almost a century.

But here's the thing. Things are going to get tighter almost certainly and actually very quickly. We've already heard from Matt Gaetz. He is not going to be Trump's next attorney general, but he has resigned from this Congress and said he won't serve in the next Congress. His fellow Florida congressman, Mike Waltz, he’s going to be Trump’s national security adviser. You don’t need to be confirmed by the Senate for that post.

KARL: Yes.

KLEIN: So, he’s going to resign he says on the first day of the Trump administration. And Elise Stefanik, the congresswoman from New York, is on tap to be the U.N. ambassador under Donald Trump. She would resign her seat when she's confirmed by – or if and when she's confirmed by the Senate. That leaves just a two-seat margin, 217-215. That means just one defection can sink any bill or two vacancies and almost nothing would be able to get done with that kind of margin.

KARL: So, on any given vote, if all the Democrats show up, just one Republican misses a vote or votes the other way, no majority.

So, look, Republicans – presidents, Democrat, Republican, always face some tough votes early on. How does this margin compare to what we have seen with other recent incoming presidents?

KLEIN: Yes, Congress rarely makes it easy for a brand-new president.

KARL: Yes.

KLEIN: But if you look back just at the last couple of presidents, an almost unthinkable margin that Barack Obama had, 79 votes plus for the Democrats in the House. You could lose almost 40 votes on any individual piece of legislation. And he needed those votes for things like Obamacare. And that was almost a filibuster-proof majority that he had in the Senate. Trump, the first time around, he was able to – he was able to spare 20-something Republicans on any individual vote, and he had a plus four margin that you could lose two in the Senate.

And very tight margins for Joe Biden. He was plus nine in the House. And absolutely even, that 50/50 Senate.

Now, Trump will have that stronger majority in the Senate, three votes to spare. That could be key in getting any of his cabinet picks confirmed. But it is that House majority that's going to be so tough to govern with. And it looks like it's going to take a while to get back to full strength. The special elections in Florida and New York would probably take until around April to complete. So, that first 100 days that Speaker Johnson talked about, they were going to be 100 days spent almost entirely with almost no margin for error on votes.

KARL: So, they’ve got the trifecta. They’ve got the House, the Senate and the White House, but the margins are incredibly tight.

All right, Rick will stick around for the roundtable. We'll break down the latest on the Trump transition, including Trump's pick to lead the FBI.

We'll be right back.

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KARL: The roundtable is here. Former DNC chair, Donna Brazile, senior editor at “The Dispatch”, Sarah Isgur, “Wall Street Journal” national politics reporter Vivian Salama, and Rick Klein back with us.

Rick, let me start with you. We’ve had a lot of controversial picks. Kash Patel has to top the list.

RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Start with the fact that he is creating the vacancy in order to fill it.

KARL: Firing Chris Wray.

KLEIN: He has to fire -- he has to fire the FBI director that he selected to replace the last FBI director.

KARL: Who he fired.

KLEIN: Who he fired as well. And then replacing him with someone who is a close personal and political ally, a foot soldier in what you might consider the Steve Bannon wing of the MAGA movement right now, and someone whose avowed statements around who he would do in a job like this have less to do with running the department and blowing it up, and yes, in punishing perceived political enemies.

This is beyond a provocative choice. I think it's going to test the limits of what Donald Trump can do in terms of -- in terms of approvals in the Senate, and it is a clear signal that when he talked about going in and blowing up a lot of Washington institutions, he was very serious about it, very serious about the rhetoric he used.

And the people around him, ecstatic around this choice, the people, the close advisers -- although there were many doubtful as to whether this is a pick that’s going to be confirmed.

KARL: All right. Sarah, let’s go a little history. So, you worked at the Trump -- at the Trump Justice Department the last time Donald Trump fired an FBI director as I recall, and when Chris Wray came into the job.

How is this move, Kash Patel to FBI -- again, needs confirmation -- how is it being received at the DOJ and the FBI?

SARAH ISGUR, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, it reminds me a little bit of when Matt Gaetz was announced for attorney general. There were a lot of people in the Department of Justice currently or even those who were thinking of going in as political appointees that wanted to think twice about it at that point, but the Matt Gaetz thing is instructive as well because it didn’t actually happened. He never even got nominated.

And so I think what you heard from Senator Rounds, for instance, is really interesting. A Republican senator basically saying, I’ll worry about that when the time comes. Let's see if that actually even comes to fruition rather than waste capital now.

And the Senate's Advice and Consent role is interesting, also something that Senator Rounds said. The president really should be able to get his choices. He should have the people around him giving him the advice that he wants.

With the slight exception of that Advice and Consent role, Hamilton and Federalist numbers 68 said the president should get his picks unless it is someone with the necessary insignificance and pliancy to render them the obsequious instruments of the president's will.

KARL: We don't get enough Federalist Papers here in the round table.

ISGUR: Number 76, my friends.

VIVIAN SALAMA, NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER, WALL STREET JOURNAL: Very impressive.

KARL: So, Vivian, does he get confirmed?

SALAMA: It remains to be seen the problem is that we've already had one nominee withdraw and there are others that have serious issues. The secretary of defense nominee Pete Hegseth has -- is now riddled with sexual misconduct allegations.

You have Tulsi Gabbard who's raised concerns about her intelligence contacts and perhaps, you know, meddling with the wrong side of --

KARL: Bobby Kennedy, we can go down. We've got a long list.

SALAMA: We can go down the list and so it really depends on whether senators are willing to risk their -- stick their necks out and take down another nominee.

Kash Patel happens to be one that's been highly controversial to the point that folks I talk to on the Hill and even within the Trump transition team did not think that that President-elect Trump would nominate him because of how controversial he is.

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KARL: Well, to Rick's point Steve Bannon did call it. Steve Bannon had been talking about this for some time.

But there is a -- I’ve heard within the Trump team some debate here or people close to Trump.

Is he -- does he really expect Patel to be confirmed as FBI director or is this a way to put out such a controversial pick that it takes the heat off somebody like Pete Hegseth or Bobby Kennedy or Tulsi Gabbard?

SALAMA: Well, that was -- that was definitely the theory with Matt Gaetz for attorney general, and so, it is possible that that's the case. But the thing is, is that he can still serve --Kash Patel could still serve in an acting capacity if Trump comes into office, fires Christopher Wray and puts him there on a temporary basis. He can do a lot in that time that he holds that acting capacity. And so, that might be enough to satisfy Trump.

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KARL: I think there's an extra step he has to take to do that. But Donna, first, what -- how hard are Democrats going to fight on this one? I don't imagine Patel is going to get many Democrats.

BRAZILE: Look, look, I think the Democrats --

(LAUGH)

BRAZILE: -- the Democrats will have to sort through the debris and figure out which of the shiny objects they want to focus on. And with only a handful of Republicans possibly thinking about Clause 2, Section 2 of the U.S. Constitution, the Advice and Consent role, this is on Republicans. I mean, this is -- and Democrats will do what they have to do in terms of raising questions and so forth, but this is Donald Trump. He has told us who he is.

I mean, we know that he wants to shake up the government. We didn't expect the earthquake to destroy the government with some of these picks. But look, Donald Trump is who he is, and he's choosing people that represents his own worst qualities. That's how I see it.

KARL: Well, another way to look at it is that he was deeply disappointed by some of his own picks last time when he took --

BRAZILE: Of course.

KARL: -- the advice, when he put in somebody like Senator Sessions or Bill Barr to attorney general or Chris Wray at FBI?

BRAZILE: Too close to the mainstream.

(LAUGH)

KARL: I mean, he has loyals, especially at DOJ.

ISGUR: The interesting thing is that he picked credentialed people who had --

KARL: Yes.

ISGUR: -- the experience. I mean, that's why I quoted "Federalist No. 76", that insignificance, it matters because you haven't built up the muscles to know what to do in that job. So you'll be ineffective, first of all. But second of all, you also don't have the muscles to know when to say no, when to push back, when your job is to tell the president, no, sir, we're not doing that.

And when you put in someone with the level of insignificance of a Kash Patel, that's the problem you run into and why it's so different than a Chris Wray or a Bill Barr, or a Jeff Sessions.

KARL: And Rick, they have 53 Senators, so he can confirm anybody if Republicans stay together. But you have Mitch McConnell, who is no longer the leader, probably not running for re-election, has no loyalty, personal loyalty to Donald Trump. You have Susan Collins and Lisa Murkowski who have both shown a willingness to convict --

KLEIN: Yeah.

KARL: -- Trump in an impeachment trial. No loyalty at all. All it takes us one more to stop any given nominee.

KLEIN: Yes.

ISGUR: Mike Browns didn't sound like he was on board.

KLEIN: That's right. We get to find out now how much the Senate wants to continue to be the Senate. And Donna is right, it's on Republicans.

BRAZILE: That's right.

KLEIN: They're the ones that would have to provide the votes. You're not going to get other than Marco Rubio or Doug Burgum, they'll get plenty of Democratic votes. But the controversial nominees that we've been talking about, they're going to have to rely on Republicans. And yeah, this whole point of Advice and Consent, you heard from Senator the rounds (ph), the Republican Senators weren't asked for the advice. They didn't give it, and then they didn't give the consent, at least on Matt Gaetz.

I think that did crack the door open to others potentially going down. And maybe Trump is OK with that. Maybe he's fine with setting this aside because to -- to Sarah's point, just because you could consider someone not to be consequential, doesn't mean they wouldn't have a very significant impact if they're on the job. They still have to stand up and take these votes at some point, and that is going to tell us a lot about what governing in the Trump era is going to be like, because Republicans have the numbers to get Trump's people in there if they choose. We just don't know if they're going to make that choice.

BRAZILE: That is correct.

KARL: Is Trump world -- I haven't heard much talk lately of the idea of the recess appointments, of forcing Congress to go into recess and then bypassing Senate confirmation at all. Does Trump still feel that's an option?

SALAMA: Definitely toying with the idea, but everyone I talked to in Trump world says that it's a distant possibility, that they're not ne necessarily there yet. They believe that they can get -- they can get the votes that they need in session. And so, they're -- for now, they're not actually entertaining that realistically.

BRAZILE: But January 3rd is right around the corner and there's a lot to do. I still find it fascinating that the Trump team, the transition team finally signed the MOU with the government so that they can start going into the agencies, but they did not follow through with the GSAs, setting up anything. They used private sectors --

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KARL: So there's no FBI I background check (inaudible)?

BRAZILE: That's my point.

SALAMA: Yeah.

BRAZILE: The point is, will the Senate --

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KARL: I guess they want to wait until Kash Patel becomes FBI Director to do the background check.

BRAZILE: Well, that's one theory of the case. But my sense is that the Senate Republicans, they're institutionalists, and I do believe the vast majority of them will think about the rule of law, think about the constitution as they begin to look into these now.

KARL: Yes, it doesn't seem to me that we have a rubber stamp. We'll see. We'll see. We got to take a quick break. We're going to come back. Hold that thought.

Much more, still ahead. The Roundtable weighs in on the path forward for Democrats. We're back in just a minute.

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KARL: The round table is back.

Sarah, you were going to make a point about recess appointments.

ISGUR: Well, there's two ways around the advice and consent power of the Senate. The first is recess appointments, but the Supreme Court back during the Obama administration said no to Obama's recess appointments and four justices concurred with Scalia leading and he said the recess appointments is an anachronism. We don't have the Senate just gone forever.

So that's a nonstarter for them. Trump's three appointments certainly follow in Scalia's footsteps on that. Two would be the Vacancies Reform Act, which Vivian mentioned, but you have to be in place for 90 days within the agency that you're being appointed to or Senate confirmed elsewhere in the government.

KARL: During the last year.

ISGUR: During the last year. Kash Patel, not GS-15. He'd have to sit there for 90 days somewhere in DOJ.

KARL: So there's no easy way to bypass a Senate confirmation.

ISGUR: Not unless you're willing to wait for a while.

KARL: OK. So, Donna, Democrats, what -- I've heard a lot -- there's been a lot this week about lessons learned from Kamala Harris' loss.

BRAZILE: I've heard a lot. I've heard more finger-pointing and blaming than really looking at what truly happened on the ground in those final two weeks of the election.

Look, I'm all about a forensic examination. That's healthy. That's important, but for now, I think the Democrats can walk and chew gum at the same time. Begin to set and place the reforms that are necessary for a stronger, healthier party a year from now, and of course, for the midterm, but also look deeper at some of the strategic mistakes that were made.

That being said, there's an announcement, February 1st, we're going to elect a new chair. Whoopee, I'm so excited.

KARL: Is Donna Brazile going to be a candidate?

BRAZILE: Hell no. I've done that twice in my life. And I always said put me down as interim. It's not on my bucket list, Jon. Maybe, you know, being like Rick Klein when I can do numbers on Sunday. That's on my bucket list.

KARL: Vivian, I mean, what's the sense? I mean, we saw Josh Stein. He seems to be a potential new national figure for the Democrats.

SALAMA: Of course. Josh Stein had a very unique situation.

KARL: Yes.SALAMA: His opponent was riddled with controversy to say the least. There is a sense that there needs to be some sort of 'Come to Jesus' moment among Democrats, that they need to figure out, A, what went wrong, why they lost touch with the country, but B, also who is going to lead the country forward. There's a lot of debate even on the Hill to try to find new leadership perhaps on some of the committees because they feel like there needs to be young and fresh blood coming in and doing that.

But there's a lot of resistance as well. And that's going to be really the telling thing moving forward, is whether or not the old guard is willing to step back and say, it's time for new people to come in and shake things up.

KLEIN: Yeah, Jon, I think despite the numbers in the House of Representatives, as we discussed, pretty good for Democrats overall, there's a sense in many Democrats I've talked to that the Democratic Party brand is a broken brand in huge swaths of the country, and they have to work to fix that.

One intriguing thought I've heard from a number of Democrats across the spectrum, they are sick of interest groups telling them, sign this questionnaire, tell us all these things that you stand for, check all these boxes. They feel like they need to define themselves more freely, much like Donald Trump did in his own way.

And a lot of that definition is going to happen now in reaction to Trump. The action in the States is going to be fascinating. People like Governor Stein forming what amounts to an opposition and a rebuilding of the party.

KARL: You were at the RNC, Sarah, when they did an autopsy after Romney's loss in 2012. They basically talked about the need to have a more open approach on things like immigration. So, I don't think the Republicans exactly went in the direction of that autopsy.SARAH ISGUR, THE DISPATCH SENIOR EDITOR & FORMER TRUMP JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No.

KARL: But, Democrats need an autopsy?

ISGUR: This is an opportunity for Democrats to become the center-left party for the United States, whether they will take it or not, whether they're able to tell those groups, I think will be up to the next presidential nominee. As we saw, Donald Trump defeated the Republican Party before he defeated the Democratic Party in 2016. Democrats need a leader like that to transform their party, if they want to.

But I also think Republicans can over-read their mandate. Donald Trump's campaign strategy wasn't what pushed him over the edge, or else, we would've seen him winning in his targeted demographics. He didn't. He won with every demographic. He improved in every state, except what, one or two in every demographic.

That is the fundamentals. That's the 40-pound curling stone going down the ice. The little sweepers in the campaign weren't the difference maker here.

BRAZILE: Well, let me just say one last thing. Howard Dean gave us a prescription, a 50-state strategy. We have to become a party that knows how to elect people in all 50 states. Of course, D.C. and more, but that's our job this time.

KARL: All right, final word, Donna Brazile. We'll be right back.

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KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

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