'This Week' Transcript 12-11-22: John Kirby, Rep. Adam Kinzinger & Vanessa Wyche

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, December 11, 2022 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC “THIS WEEK” ANCHOR: And joining me now is John Kirby, the National Security Council Coordinator for strategic communications. ANNOUNCER: “This Week” with George Stephanopoulos starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC HOST (voiceover): Finally free.

PRESIDENT JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I spoke with Brittney Griner. She's safe, she's on a plane, she's on her way home.

RADDATZ: New details on the secret negotiations that led to that high-stakes prisoner swap. As the White House faces mounting criticism for leaving behind former Marine Paul Whelan.

ANTONY BLINKEN, UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE: This was not a choice of which American to bring home. The choice was, one or none.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY, HOUSE MINORITY LEADER: It’s made Putin stronger and it’s made Americans more vulnerable.

RADDATZ: We're one-on-one with National Security Council Coordinator John Kirby and Congressman Adam Kinzinger on concern Putin scored a victory at the expense of national security.

Senate shakeup.

SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA, (I-AZ): I've registered as an Arizonian Independent.

RADDATZ: Senator Kyrsten Sinema leaves the Democratic Party just days after a Senate win in Georgia secures a Democratic majority. Our political director Rick Klein breaks down what it means for the president's agenda and our Powerhouse Roundtable covers all the week's politics.

Plus, mission to the moon.

UNKNOWN MALE: It's an amazing time not just for NASA but really for the whole country and the world.

RADDATZ: Spacecraft Orion prepares for re-entry this morning. We're live at the Johnson Space Center as NASA inches closer to a return to the moon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's “This Week.” Here now, Martha Raddatz.

RADDATZ (on camera): Good morning, and welcome to “This Week.”

It was a week of political surprises here at home and a long-awaited breakthrough overseas.

In Washington, Senator Kyrsten Sinema’s abrupt decision to leave the Democratic Party caught Capitol Hill off-guard. And while it won’t rob Democrats of their majority, it will complicate their agenda and add new uncertainty. We'll discuss all of that in a moment.

But first, that surprise diplomatic breakthrough between the U.S. and Russia, the prisoner swap freeing basketball star Brittney Griner who is now receiving medical care at an army facility in Texas. While her freedom has been celebrated across the country, President Biden is facing fierce blowback over the deal. Former Marine Paul Whelan still in a Russian prison while a notorious Russian arms dealer jailed for conspiring to kill Americans is now free.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (voiceover): For WNBA star Brittney Griner, her 10-months of detention finally over.

UNKNOWN MALE: What’s your mood?

BRITTNEY GRINER, WNBA STAR: Happy.

RADDATZ: While the release itself was widely welcomed, that dramatic prisoner exchange, Griner’s swapped for one of the world's most notorious arms trafficker Viktor Bout became a wave of bipartisan criticism.

SEN. CHRIS COONS, (D-DE): The more we engage in such exchanges, the more Americans are at risk of being scooped up and held as leverage.

MCCARTHY: Think about the exchange here, the merchant of death for a WNBA star who was picked up for marijuana, what a victory for Putin.

RADDATZ: Add to that the American left behind. Paul Whelan, now four years in a Russian prison.

DAVID WHELAN, BROTHER OF PAUL WHELAN: Having an evening to process it privately gave us a real grace to be able to, you know, be angry at Russia.

RADDATZ: The administration saying it had no choice.

KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It was either no American or one American.

RADDATZ: But President Biden vowing the fight for Whelan’s freedom will continue.

BIDEN: We are not giving up.

RADDATZ: All of this happening with the backdrop of Russia’s brutal assault on Ukraine. This week, the Donbas city of Bakhmut destroyed. Russians surrounding the city on three sides according to retired U.S. Marine Andrew Milburn of The Mozart group.

ANDREW MILBURN, CEO, THE MOZART GROUP: We are here to bring the last civilian out of a very dangerous place.

RADDATZ: Putin admitting this week that Ukraine’s infrastructure is a major target. Without water, heat or power in the dead of winter, Kyiv’s mayor says it's like the apocalypse, but Ukraine is fighting back. Drones attacking deep inside Russia itself, shown here in videos circulating online.

This week Vladimir Putin saying the war might be a long process, asking for hundreds more ballistic missiles from Iran where that nation's months of protests have prompted brutal crackdowns.

On Thursday, a sickening escalation. Iran's government announced the execution by hanging of Mohsen Shekari, a 23-year-old Iranian convicted of blocking a street and attacking a member of the militia during a protest. Hundreds more are facing charges that carry the death penalty.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (on camera): And joining me now is John Kirby, the National Security Council Coordinator for Strategic Communications.

Great to see you this morning, John.

JOHN KIRBY, NSC COORDINATOR FOR STRATEGIC COMMUNICATIONS: Thank you.

RADDATZ: Let’s – let’s start by telling us how Brittney Griner is doing?

KIRBY: Well, she’s at San Antonio at the Brook Army Medical Center getting appropriate both mental health care as well as physical health care just to make sure that she’s ready for her reintegration back into American society. And they’ll work that out with the – the doctors and the family as to how much longer she’ll need to be there. But our initial reports are she’s in very good spirits and in good health.

RADDATZ: That’s great news.

So, tell us about those final days lead leading up to her release. The U.S. acknowledged in July that it had made a substantial offer to Russia.

KIRBY: That’s right.

RADDATZ: You said this week to NPR, that in our minds the proposal would get both Brittney and Paul Whelan out. What does – what does that mean in our minds? Was a specific offer made to the Russians, you give us Viktor Bout – or we’ll give you Viktor Bout, you give us Whelan and Griner?

KIRBY: Well, without getting into the specifics of it, because we are still negotiating for Paul Whelan’s release, there was a very serious, specific proposal made to the Russians to try to get both of them out together and it just didn’t land anywhere, didn’t go anywhere with the Russians. And then as we progressed through the summer and into the fall, again, the conversation is ongoing with the Russians.

It was clear, Martha, that they were treating Paul very separately, very distinctly because of these sham espionage charges they levied against him. And then it kind of came together last week in the end game with just a Bout for Griner deal.

RADDATZ: So, at what point did you lose hope that you wouldn’t be getting Whelan out?

KIRBY: I think it really occurred to us that there was just no chance of doing it last week.

RADDATZ: Just last week?

KIRBY: Just last week in terms of –

RADDATZ: Before that you thought there might be?

KIRBY: Because we’ve – we’ve been trying all the way up. All the way up until the moment where we – we actually secured the deal that got Brittney home, we were still trying to get Paul out.

RADDATZ: And – and Paul Whelan spoke to CNN shortly after Griner’s release was announced. This was his message to President Biden.

Let’s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

PAUL WHELAN, FORMER U.S. MARINE: This is a precarious situation that needs to be resolved quickly. And I would hope that he and his administration would do everything they could to get me home, regardless of the price they might have to pay at this point.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Regardless of the price they may have to pay.

Your response to that?

KIRBY: We’re going to keep trying as hard as we can, Martha. And they’re – this business of getting wrongfully detained Americans home, there’s nothing easy about it. And there’s very rarely moments where it’s just an ah-ha, okay, God, if that’s easy (ph), that’s a no brainer. It’s hard work. And there are tough decisions that go into it.

This was one of them too, the getting –letting Mr. Bout go free six years early, that was not an easy thing to do.

So we’re going to keep working at this. And the president, as he has demonstrated, clearly –

RADDATZ: But what can you do? I mean who – who else is held? I mean they wanted a German prisoner.

KIRBY: There was a – there was a claim that they wanted a man named – named Mr. Krasikov, that the Germans have –

RADDATZ: Vadim Krasikov.

KIRBY: -- have held in – in custody, who is a – an assassin. And, as I said at the time publicly, that just wasn’t considered a serious offer. How can we – how can we get, you know, involved in that when he – he’s not in our custody.

RADDATZ: But are there – there are people in – in the U.S. who they want, Russians?

KIRBY: There – we – again, I don’t want to negotiate in public. They – they hold Mr. Whelan differently because of these espionage charges. And so we’re working through that now. We are now more informed, clearly having gone through this process over the last few months. We’re more informed. We have a better sense of the context here, where the Russia’s expectations are and we’re just going to keep working on it.

RADDATZ: And – and you talked about Viktor Bout. A lot of criticism.

KIRBY: Yes.

RADDATZ: And let me give you some more from Democratic Chairman of the Foreign Relations Committee Robert Menendez. We cannot ignore that releasing Bout back into the world is a deeply disturbing decision. We must stop inviting dictatorial and rogue regimes to use Americans overseas as bargaining chips.

KIRBY: He would have gone free anyway in 2029. He wasn’t serving a life sentence.

RADDATZ: That’s a long way away.

KIRBY: It’s six years away. And nobody’s doing back flips over there about the fact that Mr. Bout is a free man six years earlier than he would have been. But we’re going to protect our national security. And if Mr. Bout decides to go back to his previous line of work, then we’re going to do what we need to do to hold him accountable and to protect our interests.

RADDATZ: Your critics just say you just weren’t tough enough. You have to stand up to these people to get detainees released.

KIRBY: Then they – I understand the criticism. They weren’t in the room. They weren’t on the phone. They weren’t watching the incredible effort and determination by Mr. Carstens and his team to try to get both Paul and Brittney out together. I mean, in a negotiation, you do what you can. You do as much as you can. You push and you push and you push. And we did.

And this deal, we got last week, that was the deal that was possible. It was the deal we could get now. Now was the moment we could get it, and we executed it.

RADDATZ: Secretary Blinken described both Griner and Whelan as political hostages. U.S. policy is to make no concessions to individuals or groups that take an American hostage. This includes denying ransoms, prisoner releases.

Why is the policy different for foreign states who detain someone for political purposes?

KIRBY: These are wrongful detained Americans. And as we made clear, we’re going to continue to do everything we can to get them home.

The argument about encouraging hostage taking, we understand that argument, which is why the president, since he became president, has put in place accountability measures to make it harder for people to do this for political purposes, sanctions and visa restrictions.

We’ve also now started a new designation on the State Department website. So if an American is traveling overseas, go to that country on the website, see what the detention risk is so you go fully informed.

But know this, even if you do everything right and you go fully informed and you still make that trip and you get detained wrongfully, the United States isn’t going to forget you. And if we have to make tough decisions to get you back home, then this president’s willing to do that.

RADDATZ: And all of this, of course, was with the backdrop of the war in Ukraine. Give us your assessment of what’s happening there now. We hard Vladimir Putin talk again about nuclear weapons, but saying I'm not crazy, I know what nuclear weapons do.

What do you believe his state of mind is at this point in what he’s looking for?

KIRBY: It’s difficult to know exactly what he’s thinking on any given day and I -- and it’s a fool’s errand to try to get inside that brain.

What we do is we judge him by his actions. And what we see on the ground is a man who is determined to continue to prosecute this war against the Ukraine people, indeed, to make it more about them than it is even right now about the Ukrainian armed forces. He’s hitting civilian infrastructure, knocking out the lights, knocking out the water.

He’s militarized the Zaporizhzhia nuclear power plant. He is trying to bring the Ukrainian people to their knees as winter approaches, which is why just Friday, we announced even more security assistance going to the Ukrainian armed forces so that they continue to win back their territory.

RADDATZ: And a senior official in Zelenskyy’s inner circle told ABC News that it was Ukrainian drones that struck airfields deep inside Russia.

Is that’s something you think they should be doing?

KIRBY: I’ll let the Ukrainian armed forces speak for their operations. We have -- we are not – certainly not encouraging or enabling Ukrainian operations inside Russia. We are trying to make sure that hey can defend their territory, win back their ground in Ukraine.

And from the very beginning, Martha, we’ve talked about monitoring and being mindful of the risks of escalation of this war because that’s not only not good for the Ukrainian people, it’s not good for our interests, it’s not good for the Russian people.

RADDATZ: OK, thanks so much for joining us this morning, John. Always good to see you.

KIRBY: You too.

RADDATZ: We turn now to Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger, a member of the House Foreign Affairs Committee.

First of all, thanks for standing out in the rain for us.

REP. ADAM KINZINGER (R-IL): I can do that.

RADDATZ: But, let's get right to the news.

You say we can all celebrate that Brittney Griner, who’s been released. But you've been critical of the Biden administration’s prisoner swap for leaving Paul Whelan behind. I know you’ve kept in touch with him over the years, but the administration has said this came down to no American or one American.

So, in your opinion, did the administration have an obligation to pursue a deal or should they have left Brittney Griner behind?

KINZINGER: Look, I think it can be both.

I think, first off, we have to be very clear -- we can celebrate Brittney being home. This isn’t one or the other. This isn’t, you know, we don’t want her home. We're happy she's is.

The reality, though, you have to look at, obviously, Paul Whelan who has been detained for a number of years right now, about four years, and then you look at the fact that there's a guy named Marc Fogel, who is another American who was arrested a little over a year and a half ago for a small amount of marijuana possession who was given 14 years in prison.

So, I think the thing -- the reason I’m critical of what this deal is, is, again, we love that Brittney's home, okay? So, let's put that aside. But why is it that Marc Fogel wasn't included?

And also, when, you know, people say, look, it was the best deal we could get. It was the only thing the Russians were going to offer, if you make it clear that you're willing to take a deal no matter what, you're going to get a bad deal. And I think you have to negotiate from a position of strength.

So, again, we can be glad she’s home and we are, but also recognize that we are changing our no-negotiation policy and that could have real ramifications in the future.

RADDATZ: But even the Whelan family said that President Biden made the right choice in bringing Griner home.

KINZINGER: Well, they did. They also said that we don’t know what our leverage is now. They were expecting that his arms dealer was going to be the piece of leverage for -- for Paul Whelan. So, they have shown a lot of graciousness, and I think that is very good of them to do.

But I think from a policymaker perspective, we have to look at, OK, we have – we have had Paul in custody for four years. Again, Marc Fogel, who’s been in custody for -- I think about a year and a half ago he was arrested, 14 years in prison for a small amount of marijuana possession. The question is, where is he in these negotiations as well.

So, look, I – it just – as a county, we’ve kind of found ourselves in a point where we’re saying in public, we’re willing to trade anybody to save even just one American. What does that mean for the future? And I do worry about the implications that could have for future hostage taking if, you know, any country decides that we have somebody in our procession that they want back, they could just, obviously, arrest anybody and think that we would negotiate them away.

RADDATZ: And – and I want to make – be clear about Marc Fogel. Apparently, there’s been no determination yet on his case. That’s what we have been told. That’s why his name has not been in the news as much.

You talk about the weakness of the administration. You heard me ask John Kirby about that. Really what more can be done?

KINZINGER: So, look, I'm not going to stand here and say this is an issue of weakness, this is an issue of somebody that doesn’t have the strength to do it. It really is a question of, what is our policy on negotiation.

And so, look, I mean, again, yes, it is a tough decision you have to make. But the question is, do we release a known arms dealer, somebody who still had, I heard what Mr. Kirby said about, well, he was going to be out in 2029 anyway. That’s still seven more years. That still had time that now could go back to the battlefield or could go back to the arms deal. And, you know, for what we got.

Look, again, we’re glad she’s home, but we have to recognize wide-eyed that right now, as Americans, we have made it clear that we are willing to do anything to bring a single American home. And there are people that are watching that.

RADDATZ: And – and, Congressman, I want to turn to the January 6th committee. You announced this week that you will release the final report on December 21st. I know you were posting a lot of materials online, but what else will we see? Will there be another public hearing?

KINZINGER: So we’ll – we’re going to – we’re in the process of deciding what that looks like. So we’ll – I’ll – I don’t want to get in front of the committee in terms of announcing that. But what you will see with this report, and everything included, is a fulsome picture, right? I think we will be able to paint a very good picture over the summer with the hearings.

Obviously, we were limited on time. So there’s a lot more material we can add, a lot more context we can add, and then we can get into a lot of areas that weren’t discussed in great detail.

So, that will come out on December 21st, as I think the chairman has announced or the committee has announced, whenever we’re going to do that, but that, for the American people, will be that full picture.

And, look, all of this, it’s not about, you know, we’re putting anybody in jail. This is all about telling the American people about what happened and leaving with them the opportunity to say, democracies can have bad days, but how we come back from those bad days is how we’ll be defined. And lets (ph) define ourselves very well here.

RADDATZ: Got that thunder going behind you.

Congressman Bennie Thompson said the committee will probably made criminal refers to the DOJ. You have previously called them pointless but symbolically important. If there are criminal referrals, and I know you don’t want to get ahead of this, is it likely President Trump would be included?

KINZINGER: Yes, I don’t want to get too far ahead there. I’ll save that for the committee decision.

But look, I don’t think criminal referrals are pointless. I think the point on that is that it’s very clear that DOJ has decided to take this effort up. I mean there’s no doubt. I don’t know anything that you don’t know on that. DOJ doesn’t necessarily tell us what their activities are. But I think all you have to do is look out and say, they’re very interested on what happened on January 6th.

So, the criminal referrals themselves aren’t necessarily something that is going to wake DOJ up to something they didn’t know before, but I do think it will be an important, symbolic thing that the committee can do. Even more than symbolic. Just very clear that Congress thinks, you know, a crime has been committed here or the DOJ should – should investigate it.

So, only a few weeks away but, look, we’ve taken this job very seriously and we think the country is going to be far better off for the work that we were able to do.

RADDATZ: Well, we will all be – be staying tuned. Thanks very much for joining us this morning. Please, go inside. Thanks again.

KINZINGER: You bet. Thank you.

RADDATZ: Coming up, just days after celebrating their majority, Democrats are now reeling. What Kyrsten Sinema’s newfound independence will mean in the short and long term. And what it does to the balance of power in the Senate.

We’re back in 60 seconds.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. KYRSTEN SINEMA, (D) ARIZONA: Today's announcement is a reflection of my values and I think the values of most Arizonans, who are tired of a political system that holds people to the edges and really doesn't reflect who we are as a people. My stand today is about joining the many Americans who don't believe that any political party fits them perfectly.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Arizona Senator Kyrsten Sinema shocked Washington and her home state with that surprise announcement Friday that she will leave the Democratic Party and become an independent for the final two years of her term.

So what's the bottom line, and how will it affect the balance of power?

Our political director, Rick Klein, is here to walk us through the fallout this morning.

And, Rick, Senate Democrats went through to great lengths Friday to downplay the impact of her party switch on the Senate. After all, they say, there are already some independents serving in the Senate. But this really isn't the same.

KLEIN: Yeah, Martha, Democrats are downplaying this, but it is a gut punch, with real implications for how they govern and how they campaign, particularly in the wake of this last election cycle, including the race in Georgia. The upshot of this election cycle: Democrats actually were the only party to pick up a seat over in Pennsylvania. That left them with a 51-49 majority. The two current independents, Senator Sanders and Senator King, they're essentially Democrats. They caucus with the Democrats. Democrats won't run another candidate against them. Senator Sanders is even a member of Democratic leadership. Senator Sinema, though, she is choosing a much different path.

So this is now what we're looking at, 50-49, with Senator Sinema the one independent. That means that Democrats are still technically in control. Senator Sinema says she's still going to keep her committee assignments, courtesy of Democrats. But that is the slimmest of margins. There is no wiggle room whatsoever. And it empowers someone like Senator Manchin from West Virginia to be just as influential over any legislation, anything that's happening in the Senate, as he was over the last couple of years.

RADDATZ: Exactly, and, Rick, Democrats in Arizona are accusing Sinema of putting her political career before her constituents with this announcement. Are they right? And does this make her more vulnerable if she runs for re-election?

KLEIN: Yeah, Martha, these are the states that are up in the next election cycle, Arizona among them. Senator Sinema has not said whether she's running for re-election. But she doesn't have to worry about a primary anymore. Flip side of that, though, is that the Democrats are already talking about taking her on. A progressive congressman, Ruben Gallego, he's already raising money to potentially challenge her. The state Democratic Party is now at war with her. They say that she's beholden to corporations and special interests.

That could set up a messy three-way race in Arizona that could easily cost Senate Democrats control of that seat. And it comes in the context of an absolutely brutal map. If you look at the states that are up, 21 out of the 34 are currently held by Democrats. That includes some very red at the presidential level states like Montana, as well as Ohio. And it also includes, as we talk about, Arizona and West Virginia.

Now, like Senator Sinema, Senator Manchin hasn't said whether he's running for re-election or not. But that is a state that Donald Trump carried by almost 40 points last time around. So, look, the upshot of all of this is that Democrats are in control of the Senate, but it is a precarious majority that becomes even dicier as we get closer to the next set of elections.

RADDATZ: Precarious, indeed. Thanks so much, Rick.

The other major political news this week came from Georgia, Senator Raphael Warnock defeating Herschel Walker in the Senate run-off to win a full term in Congress. It's the latest victory for Democrats in a state dominated by Republicans for decades. So is the "Peach State" here to stay as a political battleground?

Here's FiveThirtyEight's Nate Silver.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

NATE SILVER, FOUNDER AND EDITOR-IN-CHIEF, FIVETHIRTYEIGHT: There's a case to be made that Raphael Warnock really overperformed in Georgia, or, if you prefer, that Herschel Walker underperformed.

The Senate race was the only statewide race that Democrats won. GOP Governor Brian Kemp was reelected by more than 7 percentage points. And no Democrat has been elected governor of Georgia since Roy Barnes in 1998.

Meanwhile Republican Secretary of State Brad Raffensberger won by nine points last month. Republicans also won in races for lieutenant governor, attorney general, agriculture, insurance and labor commissioner, and school superintendent.

SILVER: But look, while Herschel Walker was a deeply flawed candidate, let’s not get too carried away here.

SILVER (voiceover): But Georgia has two Democratic senators, not just Warnock but ALSO Jon Ossoff and, of course, he voted for Joe Biden for president in 2020. But these midterms weren’t that bad for Republicans. The GOP actually won about 3 million more votes than Democrats if you tally up all the ballots for the U.S. House.

But across the country, election-denying candidates or candidates like Walker with scandal-packed backgrounds were punished by voters especially in well-educated and diverse suburbs around cities like Atlanta.

SILVER (on camera): So let’s not overthink this. Yes, Georgia is still a little bit Republican-leaning, but both parties can win key races there. By definition, therefore, I buy that it's a battle ground state.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Our thanks to Nate. And no doubt the roundtable has a thing or two to say about all of that.

We'll be right back.

(Commercial Break)

RADDATZ: The Roundtable is all here, raring to go, and later, NASA’s Orion spacecraft splashes down off the coast of Mexico in just a few hours. We'll talk with Mission Control in Houston coming up.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): The motion is adopted.

(CHEERS)

Today, Congress sends the Respect for Marriage Act to the president's desk, a glorious triumph of love and freedom. Let us salute those who legislated and advocated relentlessly to make this bill the law of the land.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC “THIS WEEK” CO-ANCHOR: Speaker Nancy Pelosi celebrating the House's historic vote to protect same-sex marriage this week. President Biden is expected to sign it into law on Tuesday. But one of the senators behind that bipartisan deal is making waves in Congress for another reason.

Let's dig into that and more with our roundtable. Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, former North Dakota Senator Heidi Heitkamp, our congressional correspondent Rachel Scott, and ABC News chief White House correspondent Cecilia Vega.

And I’m going to start with you and go straight to the White House, Cecilia. Let's first talk about what Rick Klein covered. Senator Kyrsten Sinema of Arizona announcing her plans to become an independent. The White House downplaying this, no big deal, but -- come on.

CECILIA VEGA, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, yeah, sort of like everything is fine, there’s nothing to see here.

Look, just two days before Senator Sinema decides to make this move, the press secretary was at the podium in the briefing room, saying that the Georgia win gave them all this breathing room, and they were so happy. Then, this announcement comes out and they are basically going on and on about, effusively, about what a key partner she is.

Look, the reality is they've got to be nice right now. They really need her. She could end up being a reliable partner for them in Senate. She could end up being unpredictable, as she has been in the past. I think many behind the scenes would very clearly say that she's been a thorn in their legislative side.

But I think the strategy right now, at least -- at least in this first few weeks, is too, sort of kill her with kindness and keep going with this effusiveness, because they do need her at the end of the day.

RADDATZ: And that killing with kindness may go on and on. But it did take some wind out of the sails of the Democrats especially after Senator Raphael Warnock winning his runoff election in Georgia. What do you think this really means for Democrats?

RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: I mean, it really sucked the air out of the room of their victory party. It felt like the confetti, it was like still dropping to the floor, and she like came in with this shock wave on Capitol Hill.

I mean, two good signs for Democrats here, number one, she says she's not going to caucus with Republicans. Democrats quite frankly don't see her at caucus meetings as it is right now. It does matter less of where she lunches and more of how she votes obviously.

But also, she asked Senate Majority Leader Schumer to keep her committee assignments. And that’s going to matter big for Democrats because it will allow them to retain the majority on committees, which will allow them to exercise their subpoena power, also push through judicial nominees, which is a big priority for the Biden administration. I do think this happens to be more about 2024, and sort of building up that independent coalition that she’s looking for in Arizona.

RADDATZ: And – and, Heidi, is it more about 2024? Why do you think she did this?

HEIDI HEITKAMP, (D) FORMER NORTH DAKOTA SENATOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: It’s more about Arizona. Nothing – there’s so much pearl clutching about this decision of hers. But, at the end of the day, it means nothing.

RADDATZ: Pearl clutching.

HEITKAMP Pearl clutching.

RADDATZ: Oh, my goodness. Look at that, the pearls.

HEITKAMP: You get that, right, pearls – yes, yes, you can (INAUDIBLE).

RADDATZ: Welcome to our roundtable.

HEITKAMP: Yes. You know, and when you look at it, at the end of the day, she always was going to vote the way she was going to vote, she always was going to be a pain in – she never caucused with the Democrats. She didn't go to caucus. And – and she is -- she handed them the major majority on committees. So nothing changes in this tone.

What does change is the politics of Arizona. She is less popular in Arizona than Biden or Trump. And so she's got to find a path forward if she's going to run. That path forward was not in the Democratic caucus. The Democratic Party of – of Arizona has sanctioned her. You see the animosity there over and over again. She's hoping she can get enough, you know, John McCain Republicans and conservative Democrats to form a coalition and – and really frighten, I think, the – the Republican – the Democratic establishment from backing a Democratic candidate.

RADDATZ: And – and so, Chris, what, beside the obvious, is – is the GOP's silver lining here? How do you look at this?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, look, it just rains on, you know, the Democrats' parade. And it reminds them that even at 51-49, Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin are still the two most important United States senators out of 100. And that she wanted to make sure she reminded them, I suspect, that I'm not to be taken for granted.

So, I don't think – I think that's the best thing. Otherwise, I generally agree with Heidi, I don't think that this is going to be any big deal on Capitol Hill on a day-to-day basis. Everybody's still playing their same role, you know? The rest of the folks in the Democratic caucus are going to play their role. Sinema and Manchin are going to play theirs. And the Republicans are going to play theirs and have their fights.

And I don't think the subpoena power thing really is all that big because, in the end, who are they subpoenaing? You know, most of the time, when Congress wants to subpoena someone, it’s the House or the Senate, it's because other party – the other party is in the White House and they want to subpoena the executive branch. So, I don't think that really is going to matter all that much either. So, I don’t think it’s going to change much on Capitol Hill, but it allows us, as Rachel said, as they were celebrating the Raphael Warnock win, for us to say, ah, but remember, you still have Kyrsten Sinema and Joe Manchin.

RADDATZ: And – and on Joe Manchin, Cecilia –

CECILIA VEGA, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: The “m” word right now. Yes. Yes.

RADDATZ: Yes. Yes. The “m” word indeed for -- for Democrats, exactly. So – so what happens with him? Noting?

VEGA: Well, probably at this point. I think Chris' right, I think his lane stays exactly the same. There was this whole brouhaha last year over whether he would defect, and he adamantly came out and said he wouldn’t. And then in the wake of the Georgia win, there were all these headlines that perhaps this loosens his grip on power in the party. And now the headlines are, no, actually, his – his hold is still the same.

I think what you’re going to see is that he’s going to continue along the same path as he has for years and that the White House will continue to pull their hair out over him behind the scenes.

CHRISTIE: Martha, I’ve known Joe Manchin for a long time. He was my mentor governor when I got elected in 2009. He’s never going to be a Republican in my view.

HEITKAMP (ph): No.

CHRISTIE: I think Joe Manchin is a Democrat, going all the way back to his mom and dad. It’s part of who he is. He's a different kind of Democrat than the Washington Democrats today. But he also showed that six years ago he’s a very formidable candidate as a Democrat in a state that Donald Trump won by 40 points.

So, my guess is that Joe Manchin will just continue to be Joe Manchin. And he thinks that if he wants to run for re-election, that that’s going to be good enough for him to beat any Republican that we put up any way, depending on what the atmosphere is in ’24. We’ll see.

RADDATZ: Democrats, a sigh of relief, I'm sure.

HEITKAMP: I – I think – Joe’s got to decide whether he's going to run again, right?

RADDATZ: Yes.

HEITKAMP: So -- so that's – that’s the interesting thing there. He's not going to become a Republican. He’s going to continue to do what he's always done, which is speak his mind and, you know, drive deals, like the Inflation Reduction Act, which was really what a lot of Democrats ran on at the end.

And so when you look at this, the whole dynamics of the Senate right now, it really -- when you say you don't know want they’re going to do with subpoena power, you heard what Elizabeth Warren is talking about doing, subpoenaing Jared and Ivanka to talk about the $2 billion Saudi thing. And that’s a shot across the bow if you’re going to go after, you know, Joe Biden’s son in the House, maybe we ought to look at the deals that were done by – by Jared and Ivanka when they were in the Senate – in the – in the White House.

RADDATZ: And you may see that.

Hey, Rachel, I want to go back to Georgia and Herschel Walker's loss. He did worse now in this – this runoff than he did in November.

SCOTT: Yes. And the one thing that I was watching for –

RADDATZ: You were down there.

SCOTT: I was down there. The one thing that I was watching for is whether or not that endorsement from Brian Kemp was going to help him in this runoff election. I mean, remember, he did worse. He underperformed where Brian Kemp was in critical districts, including around the Atlanta suburbs where Kemp, even though if he wasn’t able to win a lot of those areas right – outright, a lot of those counties, he did -- he was able to peel away some support, right?

SCOTT: And Walker just wasn't able to do that. I thought it was interesting that, in the final stretch, he turned toward Kemp, someone that he was never seen campaigning with leading up to November, other than Donald Trump, who literally phone it in, held, like, this tele-rally.

But I talked to some of those split-ticket voters, voters that voted for Kemp and then voted for Warnock, and they said that they just felt like Walker didn't have a plan. They didn't know what he was running on. They saw him as a joke. And that was a problem.

RADDATZ: Do you think he really wanted this?

SCOTT: You know...

RADDATZ: He had a pretty gracious concession speech.

SCOTT: He did. He said that they did give it all that they had, that they gave it a fight.

I think he did. I think he felt a lot of pressure, though, from Republicans, quite frankly. And Georgia just became so critical in this election. And you had the former president behind him; you had Republicans on Capitol Hill, despite all the controversies, standing behind him. But in the end, it wasn't enough.

RADDATZ: And -- and. Chris, you talk a lot about quality candidates...

CHRISTIE: Yeah.

RADDATZ: ... the quality of the candidate.

CHRISTIE: Bad candidates lose. Good candidates have a chance to win. And Herschel Walker was not a good candidate. And, you know, he wasn't a good candidate because of a whole variety of issues that we saw that came out during the campaign.

Let's remember a few things. Brian Kemp won by -- had 200,000 votes more than Herschel Walker on election night. If you're Herschel Walker and you don't win that night, you're not winning. I mean, Kemp's endorsement is fine, but it's the top of the ticket in getting people to stay in that line. Brian Kemp did the best he could for Herschel Walker by beating Stacy Abrams by seven, and if Herschel Walker doesn't get 50 that night, he's not getting it.

And on the Donald Trump side, I mean, you know, we all remember, in 2016, he said, if he got elected, there was going to be so much winning and winning and winning and winning, they'd get sick of winning. None of us knew at the time he was actually talking about the Democrats were going to do all that winning, not the Republicans. And that's what he's wrought.

And Herschel Walker is his creation. And so he's got to own the fact that Herschel Walker so vastly underperformed in a state as -- as we saw earlier, every other Republican running statewide won, except for Herschel Walker. You know what that tells you? Bad candidate.

RADDATZ: Cecilia, I want to turn to the January 6th Committee. You heard Adam Kinzinger talk about this a little. What are you expecting?

VEGA: Well, we could be potentially looking at some criminal referrals in a matter of days.

RADDATZ: You wouldn't go there...

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGHTER)

RADDATZ: No surprise there.

VEGA: But, I mean, there was a little bit of confusion on the Hill this past week that we will see them; we probably will see them. What our team is actually hearing is that they are looking at a number of referrals. We're looking at folks who are close to Trump. We could be talking about people like Mark Meadows, Rudy Giuliani, looking at charges, potentially everything from obstruction to perjury. But, look, at the end of the day, Martha, this could be ultimately a largely symbolic move. The DOJ doesn't have to act on charges referred by Congress. So I think it remains to be seen what actually happens with that.

RADDATZ: And they don't have to act. But does it add pressure?

HEITKAMP: Well, I think it does, but the DOJ has not demonstrated that they're really listening. There's a ton of grassroots pressure out there, "Indict Trump, indict Trump." And they just methodically go through their work.

And so, a referral, yes. I think they'll be interested in the documents, interested in the interviews. You'll see a lot of, kind of, collaboration on the information. But a referral means nothing. It doesn't mandate anything.

CHRISTIE: I think it's worse than nothing, actually. I think a referral puts DOJ in a position of looking political...

HEITKAMP: Yeah, that's a point.

CHRISTIE: Because the committee's viewed as political. And so, if they really want some of those people to be indicted, if that's what they really think needs to happen, they should trust the attorney general to do what he thinks is right. Because the constant politicization of the Justice Department is awful for the country. And it undercuts anything that DOJ may do. Now, he's -- the attorney general's nominated, appointed, rather, a career prosecutor to run this investigation into Donald Trump. Let him do his job. And I think Congress should just stay the hell out of it, on criminal referrals. Let them write whatever report they're going to write. But criminal referrals will not put pressure on DOJ. In my view, it will make DOJ, "We don't want to do what they asked us to do because, if we do..."

RADDATZ: Keep as far away from that as possible.

CHRISTIE: Yeah.

RADDATZ: Rachel, Trump's namesake company was convicted this week of tax crimes committed by two longtime executives. Donald Trump was not. So does any of this matter? It created quite a scene this week, and yet...

SCOTT: Yeah, I think it adds to a long list of controversies that are plaguing the former president. I mean, if we just look at the past month alone, his hand-picked candidate in Georgia lost; he had dinner with a white supremacist, with an artist who has made Antisemitic claims. He has talked about terminating parts of the United States Constitution to help him overturn an election that he clearly lost. And now this just, sort of, adds to that, right?

I mean, I think Republicans are exhausted. I mean, I think even Republicans that like the policies -- the America First policies, they’re exhausted on Capitol Hill of having to respond to controversy after controversy, not focusing on what they want to be focused on leading in 2024. And I've traveled across the country. I think, Republican voters are getting exhausted as well, even the ones that voted for him, even the ones that like him.

This opens up the door for them to consider someone else in 2024. And so I think we are seeing signs that it is starting to shatter a little bit of that Republican firewall for the former president.

RADDATZ: And Cecilia, while we're on 2024, everybody better buckle up, tie it in a knot (ph), President Biden said he would think about running, we've heard him say that several times. But what are you hearing at the White House?

VEGA: Yes, he's now saying that he's intending to run. I think they are in -- about to launch into full campaign mode. There's no expectation from anybody near him that he's not going to run. They’re gearing up at this point.

The family met over the Thanksgiving break. They're going to again meet over Christmas. We're expecting some kind of announcement after the holidays. The chief of staff says he now expects that the president will run. It will happen after the holidays. You overheard -- the first lady, apparently, was overheard at the State Dinner telling Macron that she's all-in. That was a big question.

But right now, when you talk to folks around the president, they’re not feeling any pressure because of Trump to launch --

RADDATZ: Okay. But --

VEGA: -- to go away (ph). Yes.

RADDATZ: -- we have a little longer to wait. I'm sure we'll all be holding our breaths.

Thanks for all of you. We got to stop now.

But up next, it's been 50 since astronauts walked on the moon. In just a few hours, the spacecraft designated to make a historic return flight will splash into the Pacific Ocean. We’ll check in with the director of the Johnson Space Center next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP, MAY 25, 1961)

JOHN F. KENNEDY, THEN-U.S. PRESIDENT: I believe that this nation should commit itself to achieving the goal, before this decade is out of landing a man on the moon and returning him safely to the earth.

But in a very real sense, it will not be one man going to the moon. If we make this judgment affirmatively, it will be an entire nation. For all of us must work to put him there.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: President John F. Kennedy's stirring speech to Congress more than 60 years ago, dared the country to send astronauts to the moon, it's been half a century since the last moon landing but a new effort is now under way.

Here's Gio Benitez on NASA's new push.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: America's challenge of today has forged man’s destiny of tomorrow.

GIO BENITEZ, ABC NEWS TRANSPORTATION CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's been 450 years since the American astronauts of Apollo 17 last step foot on the moon. NASA this week one giant leap closer to sending humankind back after Apollo's sister program Artemis successfully sent its Orion spacecraft on a nearly month-long journey, breaking the record for distance travel by a human rated spacecraft 270,000 miles from earth.

HOWARD HU, ORION PROGRAM MANAGER: It’s been fantastic in terms of being able to show where our spacecraft is and taking a few pictures to tell the audience how wonderful it is to be so far from earth.

BENITEZ: Pictures like this, Orion selfie with the moon and earth, a flashback to this iconic photo known as blue marble.

Like Apollo 17 splashdown 50 years ago, Orion slated to do the same off the coast of Baja in just a few hours. Flight engineers are attempting a so-called skip entry, where the spacecraft traveling at 25,000 miles per hour will hit earth's atmosphere, skip like a rock off of it back into space, and re-enter to splash down at a precise target.

The maneuver will help NASA protect astronauts returning to earth by minimizing recovery time.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We rise together back to the moon and beyond.

BENITEZ: If all goes well, the next flight planned Artemis II in 2024 would include astronauts orbiting the moon and Artemis III tentatively slated for 2025 would fulfill NASA’s goal of putting a woman and a person of color on the surface of the moon.

Victor Glover is an astronaut hoping to be assigned to an Artemis mission.

VICTOR GLOVER, ARTEMIS ASTRONAUT: When humans do great things, we call them moonshots. And now, our generation has a moonshot. It’s a really exciting time.

BENITEZ: As NASA moves forward with the Artemis program, a new space race is emerging, a Japanese billionaire Yusaku Maezawa announced this week a crew of eight astronauts to go to the moon with him optimistically next year.

Years from now, how far do you hope Orion will go?

HU: Well, you know, Orion is a very important of our overall transportation infrastructure. So, it will carry as far as we hope we need to go and certainly the moon is the first step, and we always talk about beyond.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: And our thanks to Gio for that.

Joining me now is the director of NASA’s Johnson Space Center overseeing the Artemis Mission, Vanessa Wyche.

It’s great to see you this morning. A very exciting day for all of you.

The Orion spacecraft is set to splashdown in just a couple of hours. What do you learn from that mission? VANESSA WYCHE, NASA JOHNSON SPACE CENTER DIRECTOR: Well, you know, this is the first flight. This is a test flight. And it's uncrewed. So, we don't have any crew members onboard, but we're learning how does this spacecraft operate in deep space?

So, right now, today, we're ending the phases of on-orbit flight and we're going to be re-entering. So, we already learned a lot about how it operates in an environment that is providing us radiation that's different, the temperatures that we're seeing, et cetera. So, now, we're going to be re-entering, and we're going to see how the heat shield is going to perform as we re-enter into the Earth's atmosphere and we’re going to see how our parachutes hold up so that we can land safely.

Now, with this particular spacecraft, now we're going to be able to on our next launch to put our crew members onboard. So, this is a huge day for us today.

RADDATZ: It sure is. What's the importance of going to the moon again after 50 years?

WYCHE: Yes. So, after fifty years, now we’re going to be going and we’re going to be going differently. We’re going to go and we’re going to go in a stainable way, because what we're trying to do is understand what it's like to live on another planetary body before we go onto Mars. So this is critical. It’s critical for us in terms of understanding scientific discoveries. You think about the technologies that we had in the late '60s, early '70s, when we went to the moon before under Apollo. But this time when we go, we have different technologies and we’ll be able to discover more, as well as we're going to be going with our international partners and our commercial partners. And our commercial partners are very interested as well in how they can explore and maybe mine for resources that we did not be able to do under Apollo.

RADDATZ: And the Artemis III mission in 2025 is expected to include the first woman or the first person of color, or both. Why is that so important?

WYCHE: It's so very important. So, under Apollo, you know, we had men that went to the moon because at that time that was what our space program was made of. But today our space program is so much more diverse. And so our astronaut core, we have women, we have men, we have people of color, and we also this time will be going with an international component and crew as well. And so it's very important because now we'll be going with everyone. Everyone from earth will be going to the moon.

RADDATZ: That -- that's a very exciting thing.

And -- and – and just quickly, I know the Japanese – a Japanese billionaire says he plans to fly a crew to the moon. Will they beat us?

WYCHE: Well, they're going to be doing a test flight as well because they'll be going maybe on one of the early SpaceX missions. So, we shall see. Right now, today, they're – they’re doing plans and working towards that. And NASA, we will be preparing our astronauts and we will be launching.

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks so much for joining us this morning. Great to see you.

We'll be right back.

(COMERCIAL CREAK)

RADDATZ: Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "WORLD NEWS TONIGHT." And be sure to join us next Sunday for our special report from the border.

Have a good day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)