'This Week' Transcript 3-19-23: Former Vice President Mike Pence and Sen. Elizabeth Warren

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, March 19, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK with George Stephanopoulos starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Threat of indictment.

MIKE PENCE, FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: It just feels like a politically charged prosecution.

KARL: Donald Trump claims he's about to be arrested by the Manhattan D.A., and he is calling for protests.

PENCE: So, if this occurs on Tuesday, they need to do so peacefully.

KARL: Mike Pence blasts the investigation, but also offers his most pointed criticism yet of his former boss.

PENCE: We've gone our separate ways. The country just wants a fresh start.

KARL: This morning, our exclusive interview with the former vice president.

I'm not asking you about the record, I'm asking you about the man.

Plus, reaction and analysis from our powerhouse roundtable.

Banking crisis.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Americans can have confidence that the banking system is safe.

KARL: Silicon Valley Bank's collapse rocks Wall Street, sparking new recession fears.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Congress opened the door to weaker regulation. Congress needs to close that door.

SEN. JOHN THUNE (S-SD): Why did we not anticipate this and see this coming?

KARL: All the fallout this morning with Senator Elizabeth Warren.

And --

RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: How long do you think it will take to fully understand the scope of pandemic fraud?

MICHAEL HOROWITZ: We're talking years.

KARL: After Congress pumped out trillions of dollars in pandemic aid, Rachel Scott follows the money in her series, "Through the Cracks."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning, and welcome to THIS WEEK.

As we come on the air this morning, local and federal law enforcement are on alert as Donald Trump is, again, calling himself a victim and calling on his supporters to protest. Trump claims he is going to be arrested on Tuesday under indictment by Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg. He hasn't said why he thinks this will happen, and his own spokesman said they have received no notification about it from the Manhattan D.A. We have asked the D.A.'s office if an indictment is indeed coming, and as of this morning he has not answered that question.

District Attorney Bragg did, however, send a notice to employees of the D.A.'s office saying, quote, we do not tolerate attempts to intimidate our office or threaten the rule of law in New York.

The Institute for Strategic Dialogue, which monitors the online activity of extremist groups, tells us Trump's words have triggered calls for violence, even civil war.

I just returned overnight from Iowa where Trump's statements and the possible actions of the Manhattan D.A. are very much on the minds of voters I spoke to, and the man I interviewed, former Vice President Mike Pence. As you will see, Pence made some of his sharpest criticism yet of Trump in our interview. He told me, it is time for Republicans to turn the page on the Trump era. He declined to say whether he would ever support Trump again for president, even if he is the Republican nominee. But as you will see, Pence also had pointed words about the Manhattan D.A., and that's where our interview begins.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: As I'm sure you've seen, Donald Trump is saying that he's going to be indicted on Tuesday. He's calling for people to protest. Now we -- we don't know if that's true. The Manhattan D.A. has not said anything about it. But he's calling for people to protest. Is that irresponsible?

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: Well, first, let me say, I'm – I'm taken aback at the idea of indicting a former president of the United States at a – at a time when there's a crime wave in New York City, that fact that the Manhattan D.A. thinks that indicting President Trump is his top priority I think it -- just tells you everything you need to know about the radical left in this country. It just feels like a politically charged prosecution here. And I -- for my part, I just feel like it's just not what the American people want to see.

We've got real challenges in this country today, Jon. People are facing record inflation, a crisis at our border. We have war in Eastern Europe. The American people are anxious about our future. And here we go again, back into another politically charged prosecution directed at the former president of the United States. And I – I would just hope for better.

KARL: But he's calling on people to protest, to come out and protest, take our nation back. We know what happened the last time he said that.

PENCE: Well, Jon, the American people have a constitutional right to peaceably assemble and express their (INAUDIBLE) –

KARL: Absolutely, but – but have a former president calling on people to protest a – a – a – a justice proceeding.

PENCE: Look, I – look the frustration the American people feel about what they sense as a two tiered just system in this country I think – I think is well-founded. But I – and I believe that people understand that if they give voice to this -- if this occurs on Tuesday, that they need to do so peacefully and in a lawful manner. That the violence that occurred on January 6th, the violence that occurred in cities throughout this country in the summer of 2020 was a disgrace. The American people won't tolerate it. And those that engage in that kind of violence should be prosecuted to the fullest extent of the law.

KARL: But – but you say he's a – a former president possibly about to be indicted and it's unprecedented. Aren't his actions unprecedented? I mean we never saw a presidential candidate give $130,000 to a porn star to – to keep her from – from talking. I mean, these are unprecedented actions.

PENCE: Well, Jon, I -- as you know, those – those events transpired before I even joined the national ticket. And so I can’t -- I can't speak to the merits of the case.

KARL: Well – well – well, the payoff happened just two weeks before the election.

PENCE: But I – I can't speak to the merits of the case.

KARL: Yes.

PENCE: And – and, in America, you're innocent until proven guilty. That's not always true in the national media, but it is true in our justice system. And – and, look, I know that President Trump can take care of himself.

KARL: Yes.

PENCE: And – and this process will play out if, in fact, an indictment comes down.

KARL: So, I want to ask you about your recent remarks about Donald Trump and – and January 6th. You said that history will hold Donald Trump accountable. How?

PENCE: Well, we all face the judgment of history. And -- and I believe, in the fullness of time, that history will hold Donald Trump accountable for the events of January 6th, as it will other people that were involved. It was a --

KARL: In what ways? What will history say about his actions?

PENCE: Well, it will be the judgment of history. I truly believe it. And – and I also think the American people will also have their say. I mean the president is now a candidate for office again. He's running for election. But I -- as I go around the country, I – I'm convinced the American people have – have learned the lessons of that day. They've internalized what they have learned over the last two years, including in much of your good work on this topic. They know what happened. They know the – the fact that the president's reckless words endangered people at the Capitol that day, including me and my family. I -- and I believe they'll – they’ll factor all of that in as they make decisions going forward in this country.

They'll make their own judgment about what happened on January 6th. They'll make their own judgment about this administration and its failures at home and abroad. And I think, ultimately, history -- history will hold Donald Trump accountable for that day.

KARL: Trump actually said in response to what you’ve said recently about January 6th that it have your fault.

PENCE: Uh-huh.

KARL: That if you had done what he was asking you to do, throwing out those electoral votes, you wouldn't have had a January 6th as we know it. That's what he said. What do you – what od you think of that? It was your fault. That you are to blame.

PENCE: Well, I know one of the – of the attorneys that was advising the president said the same thing in a text on January the 6th.

KARL: Yes.

PENCE: But his attorneys were wrong and --

KARL: John Eastman.

PENCE: And President Trump is wrong. I know by God's grace we did our duty that day, to – to act out the expressed language of the Constitution of the United States. States control elections. Once states send electoral votes to the Congress, the only role the Congress has is to open and count. They can consider objections, which Democrats brought in the last three elections that – that Republicans prevailed. They can consider elections, but at the end of the day, the job of the Congress is to open and count electoral votes certified by the states, no more, no less.

KARL: I mean he – he says, in many ways you can blame him for January 6th. I mean you were the one that had to be evacuated, that was facing calls for people who -- who were saying that they wanted to hang you. And he's saying, in many ways you can blame him, blame you, for January 6th.

PENCE: Well, it's one of the reasons why, despite the fact that the president and I actually parted amicably when we left the White House on January 20th, and spoke several times in the weeks that followed, that after I saw him return to that type of rhetoric in the spring of 2021, we’ve – we’ve just gone our separate ways.

KARL: I want to play you something Donald Trump said to me when I asked him if he was concerned about your safety on that day.

I asked directly about --

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

KARL: Were you worried about him during that siege? Were you worried about his safety?

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER PRESIDENT: No. I thought he was well-protected and I had heard that he was in good shape. No, because I had heard he was in very good shape. But -- but -- no I think --

KARRL: Because you heard those chants, that was terrible. I mean, you know, those --

TRUMP: He could have -- well, the people were very angry.

KARL: They were saying hang Mike Pence.

TRUMP: Because it’s -- it's common sense, Jon, it's common sense that you're supposed to protect -- how can you -- if you know a vote is fraudulent, right?

KARL: Yeah.

TRUMP: How can you pass on a fraudulent vote to Congress?

(END AUDIO CLIP)

KARL: I mean, he's effectively justifying or excusing the actions of people who were -- who were calling for you to be hanged.

PENCE: There’s no excuse for the violence that took place at the Capitol on January 6th, and I’ll never diminish it as long as I live.

But, look, I -- the president's wrong. He was wrong that day, and I would actually hope he would come around in time, Jon, that he would see the cadre of legal advisers he had him with had led him astray.

But he hasn't done so. And it’s -- I think it's one of the reasons why this country just wants a fresh start.

KARL: Does saying -- does justifying those murderous chants, does that effectively disqualify him from being commander-in-chief again?

PENCE: I think that's a judgment for the American people to make.

KARL: What's your judgment about it?

PENCE: And I’m confident they'll make it.

Well, look, I’ll be honest with you -- I was angry that day, and while I believe in forgiveness, I’ve been working hard at that for awhile. The president let me down that day. And he let the country down that day.

But thanks to the courage of law enforcement, the riot was quelled. We reconvened the conference the very same day, and that very same day of tragedy became a triumph for freedom, and I’ll always be proud of our small part in that.

But to be honest with you, the emotions of that day, the emotions since, I just haven't had time for it. But to me, there's just too many issues that we're facing in this country today under the failed policies of this administration that -- I don't have a lot of time for looking backwards.

KARL: Could you ever support him again for president?

PENCE: I think that's yet to be seen, Jon. I must tell you that I think we'll have better choices. We're going to decide as a family whether we offer ourself as one of them, but I think different times call for different leadership.

KARL: You had said back in September of 2020 that President Trump, he's a man of his word.

PENCE: Mm-hmm.

KARL: Do you still believe that?

PENCE: I’m very proud of the record of the Trump/Pence administration.

KARL: Is he a man of his word?

PENCE: On one issue after another, we kept our word to the American people. I mean, whether it be military, cutting taxes, unleashing American energy, securing the border, appointing conservative judges, including pro-life judges to the Supreme Court, to give us a new beginning for life. One issue after another -- I saw the president keep the word he'd made to the American president and I was proud of those four years to stand with him.

And I know that grates on some people in the national media, Jon. But as I wrote in my book, I am proud of the record of our administration. It didn't end well, but it ended in controversy. But those four years, we saw America through that pandemic, we led our nation through greater prosperity and security in those first three years than any time of my lifetime, and I’ll always be proud of the record of the Trump/Pence administration.

KARL: But I’m not asking about the record. I’m asking about the man. I mean, you had said another time, I always tell people to know President Trump is to know someone whose word is his bond.

I mean, this is somebody that as you acknowledged in your book, lied to the American people about what you had told him about January 6th, that you couldn't do it. And he put out a statement saying that you were in complete agreement with him. That's just one of many, many, many examples. You don't still think to know President Trump is to know that his word is his bond. Again, not the record of the administration, Donald Trump the man.

PENCE: I said that at that time and I meant it. I was deeply disappointed with the president's words and conduct in the days leading up to January 6th and on January 6th.

KARL: Incensed, right? Incensed, I mean, because he’s continuing –

PENCE: Well, yes, we – you know, but – but – you know, as I wrote in my book, the next day, when the president committed to a peaceful transfer of power, when he condemned the violence at the Capitol, I thought we were back on track. And then the week that followed, we would – we spoke – I was very direct with him about my experience, and my view of it, and my belief that I had done my duty. And – but we parted amicably and respectfully. But in the months that followed, he returned to that – that same rhetoric he was using before January 6th. Rhetoric that continues much up to this day. And -- and that's why we've gone our separate ways. And – and I continue to -- I continue to be disappointed in the fact that the president has not seen his way clear to know that by God's grace we did our duty that day.

KARL: Can you -- can you clarify your position on testifying to the special counsel? I know that you've cited the Speech and Debate Clause.

PENCE: Sure.

KARL: I want to talk about your role in presiding over the Congress on that day. But my understanding of the subpoenas, there are 16 separate things that they want from you, 16 different topic areas, and only maybe the most -- two of them would directly be about you presiding over the joint session that day. So, are you willing to testify about other matters?

PENCE: Well, Jon, as you know, I'm – I'm limited in what I can say about proceedings related to the grand jury. But just as I did on January 6th, when I upheld the Constitution of the United States, I think preserving the separation of powers, the Speech and Debate protections that legislators have, and that those operating in the legislative branch have is enormously important to the life of the nation. We simply don't want an executive branch to be able to haul legislators into court every time that there's a policy dispute.

And so I’ve directed my attorneys to make -- to make a strong case in defense of my role as president of the Senate presiding over a joint session of Congress on that day, and in the preparation for that. And we'll let the courts sort it out. But I've actually never asserted that other matters unrelated to January 6th would otherwise be protected by Speech and Debate, but I – I'm –

KARL: So -- so you may be willing to testify on other matters, just not specifically your role in providing --

PENCE: Look, I'm -- I'll going to stand firm on the Constitution of the United States. We'll let the courts sort that out. And I want to be clear I'll – I'll obey the law.

KARL: But I just want to be clear because I – because I don't want to misinterpret your remarks. You are open to testifying on other matters?

PENCE: We’re – we’re -- we're going to respect the decisions of the court. And it may take us all the way to the highest court in the land. But I promise you, we'll – we’ll respect the decisions of the court. But I'm – I'm going to stand firmly on the Constitution.

KARL: But – but it's not that you’re objecting to talking about, for instance, the broader effort to overturn the election? That was one of the other items (INAUDIBLE) --

PENCE: Well, as I've said, we're not asserting executive privilege, which may encompass other discussions, I believe, the president may well have brought a claim for that. But I just believe that the work that I did, preparing for and conducting my role as president of the Senate is covered by the Speech and Debate Clause. I believe we have the law on our side.

KARL: But the other issues?

PENCE: But we'll wait and see on the court.

KARL: So, let’s turn to the next election. You're here in Iowa. Are you running for president?

PENCE: We'll, we're giving serious consideration to it, Jon, and we're getting a lot of encouragement, not only here in Iowa, but all across the country. We're giving prayerful consideration to what role we might play. But I think now is a time for -- for all of us that care about this country to consider our part, to play a part and to make sure that we elect leadership at every level and that will turn this country around in 2024 and beyond.

KARL: You said previously that your decision would come by spring. I know it doesn't feel like spring out there, but Monday is officially the first day of spring. What's your – what’s your timeline?

PENCE: Well, I can tell you we're getting closer. We’ve been spending time with our family. And we’ve been listening to friends around the country. And I expect before too long we'll -- we'll know what our calling is. And I promise to keep you posted.

KARL: All right, Vice President Pence, thank you for taking the time, and I'll hold you to it, you'll let us know when you decide about running for president.

PENCE: We sure will, Jon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: We'll have more of our exclusive interview with Mike Pence later in the program, including his reaction to Ron DeSantis calling the war in Ukraine a, quote, territorial dispute.

And coming up, as the Biden administration rushes to contain the fallout from the Silicon Valley Bank collapse, Senator Elizabeth Warren is calling for a federal investigation. Senator Warren joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: Um – but --

KARL: Incensed, right? Incensed, I mean, because he’s continuing –

PENCE: Well, yes, we – you know, but – but – you know, as I wrote in my book, the next day, when the president committed to a peaceful transfer of power, when he condemned the violence at the Capitol, I thought we were back on track. And then the week that followed, we would – we spoke – I was very direct with him about my experience, and my view of it, and my belief that I had done my duty. And – but we parted amicably and respectfully. But in the months that followed, he returned to that – that same rhetoric he was using before January 6th. Rhetoric that continues much up to this day. And -- and that's why we've gone our separate ways. And – and I continue to -- I continue to be disappointed in the fact that the president has not seen his way clear to know that by God's grace we did our duty that day.

KARL: Can you -- can you clarify your position on testifying to the special counsel? I know that you've cited the Speech and Debate Clause.

PENCE: Sure.

KARL: I want to talk about your role in presiding over the Congress on that day. But my understanding of the subpoenas, there are 16 separate things that they want from you, 16 different topic areas, and only maybe the most -- two of them would directly be about you presiding over the joint session that day. So, are you willing to testify about other matters?

PENCE: Well, Jon, as you know, I'm – I'm limited in what I can say about proceedings related to the grand jury. But just as I did on January 6th, when I upheld the Constitution of the United States, I think preserving the separation of powers, the Speech and Debate protections that legislators have, and that those operating in the legislative branch have is enormously important to the life of the nation. We simply don't want an executive branch to be able to haul legislators into court every time that there's a policy dispute.

And so I’ve directed my attorneys to make -- to make a strong case in defense of my role as president of the Senate presiding over a joint session of Congress on that day, and in the preparation for that. And we'll let the courts sort it out. But I've actually never asserted that other matters unrelated to January 6th would otherwise be protected by Speech and Debate, but I – I'm –

KARL: So -- so you may be willing to testify on other matters, just not specifically your role in providing --

PENCE: Look, I'm -- I'll going to stand firm on the Constitution of the United States. We'll let the courts sort that out. And I want to be clear I'll – I'll obey the law.

KARL: But I just want to be clear because I – because I don't want to misinterpret your remarks. You are open to testifying on other matters?

PENCE: We’re – we’re -- we're going to respect the decisions of the court. And it may take us all the way to the highest court in the land. But I promise you, we'll – we’ll respect the decisions of the court. But I'm – I'm going to stand firmly on the Constitution.

KARL: But – but it's not that you’re objecting to talking about, for instance, the broader effort to overturn the election? That was one of the other items (INAUDIBLE) --

PENCE: Well, as I've said, we're not asserting executive privilege, which may encompass other discussions, I believe, the president may well have brought a claim for that. But I just believe that the work that I did, preparing for and conducting my role as president of the Senate is covered by the Speech and Debate Clause. I believe we have the law on our side.

KARL: But the other issues?

PENCE: But we'll wait and see on the court.

KARL: So, let’s turn to the next election. You're here in Iowa. Are you running for president?

PENCE: We'll, we're giving serious consideration to it, Jon, and we're getting a lot of encouragement, not only here in Iowa, but all across the country. We're giving prayerful consideration to what role we might play. But I think now is a time for -- for all of us that care about this country to consider our part, to play a part and to make sure that we elect leadership at every level and that will turn this country around in 2024 and beyond.

KARL: You said previously that your decision would come by spring. I know it doesn't feel like spring out there, but Monday is officially the first day of spring. What's your – what’s your timeline?

PENCE: Well, I can tell you we're getting closer. We’ve been spending time with our family. And we’ve been listening to friends around the country. And I expect before too long we'll -- we'll know what our calling is. And I promise to keep you posted.

KARL: All right, Vice President Pence, thank you for taking the time, and I'll hold you to it, you'll let us know when you decide about running for president.

PENCE: We sure will, Jon.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: We'll have more of our exclusive interview with Mike Pence later in the program, including his reaction to Ron DeSantis calling the war in Ukraine a, quote, territorial dispute.

And coming up, as the Biden administration rushes to contain the fallout from the Silicon Valley Bank collapse, Senator Elizabeth Warren is calling for a federal investigation. Senator Warren joins us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JANET YELLEN, SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: This week, the government took decisive and forceful actions to stabilize and strengthen public confidence in our financial system. I can reassure the members of the committee that our banking system is sound and that Americans can feel confident that their deposits will be there when they need them.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That's Treasury Secretary Janet Yellen testifying on Capitol Hill this week amid growing concerns about the economic impact of Silicon Valley Bank's failure.

Joining us now is Senator Elizabeth Warren, a member of the Senate Banking Committee.

Good morning, Senator Warren. Thank you for joining us.

So...

SEN ELIZABETH WARREN, (D) BANKING COMMITTEE & (D) MASSACHUSETTS: Good morning. Good to be with you.

KARL: Great to have you.

You heard Secretary Yellen say that she has confidence that the banking system is sound, although this week we saw troubles with yet another bank, First Republic Bank, getting a $30 billion lifeline from some of the larger banks.

Are you as confident as the secretary that the banking system is sound?

WARREN: Well, if I can, let me describe what I see as the problem. Starting back in 2016 or so, these multi-billion-dollar banks that – like SVB -- in fact Gary Becker, the CEO of SVB, came to Washington and kept saying, "Lighten the regulations on us. We’re just like tiny little banks, so ease up on the regulations." Donald Trump then ran for president promising he would ease up on the regulations on these multi-billion-dollar banks. He then was elected president and he put in a lot of regulators who eased up on banking regulations. Trump then went to Congress and he said, "Let’s ease up even more," and, with the help of both parties, passed laws to roll back on regulations and open the door to easing up even more.

Then Jerome Powell, the chairman of the Fed, stepped up and took a flame-thrower to the regulations, saying, "I'm doing this because Congress let me do it."

And what happened was exactly what we should have predicted, and that is the banks, these big, multi-billion-dollar banks, loaded up on risk; they boosted their short-term profits; they gave themselves huge bonuses and big salaries; and they exploded their banks. And so where we stand now is now the federal government’s got to step back in and back up these multi-billion-dollar banks. And I think the – there’s two halves to this. One half is, the government is clearly doing that, but there are a lot of people who are saying, gee, if they’ve been so lightly regulated for such a long period, it’s important to look under the hood.

KARL: So --

WARREN: And see what’s happen with the other banks.

KARL: So, I want to ask you about -- about that deregulatory push and your effort to try to get some of those regulations back in place.

But, first, over the weekend, have you had any conversations with the regulators about additional banks at risk of failing?

WARREN: I -- I'm going to -- not going to talk about private conversations. But I think -- let me be clear about what I'm calling for right now. I'm calling for an independent investigation of the Fed and the whole regulatory system here. The Fed doesn’t just get to do its own investigation.

I'm calling for the Fed right now to reverse its weakened regulations and to bear down, to look what -- at these banks with much more scrutiny. And then I'm also calling on Congress, as you rightly say, to roll back the ability of the Fed to weaken regulations and calling for these CEOs to be held accountable so that we have laws in place to get claw backs of their bonuses, of their giant salaries.

And, when you explode a bank, you ought to be banned from banking forever.

KARL: Do you think we could see criminal charges?

WARREN: It depends. I think there will be investigations. The Department of Justice has opened an investigation. I think that’s appropriate for them to do. We’ll see where the facts take them. But we’ve got to take a close look at this.

And, look, we’ve got to say overall that we can’t keep repeating this approach of weakening the regulation over the banks, then stepping in when these giant banks get into trouble.

You know, little community banks don’t get this benefit. They’ve got to run their shop every single day to make sure they are safe and sound. Their regulators bear down pretty hard on them.

It’s these giant, multibillion-dollar banks that -- there was such an irony that Gary Becker came to Washington and said, weaken the regulations because we’re just like those tiny little banks that can’t pose a risk to the overall economy. And --

KARL: But let me -- if I can ask you --

WARREN: And that’s obviously not true.

KARL: If I can ask you, though --

WARREN: Sure.

KARL: That -- that deregulatory move in 2018 was supported by a number of your Democratic colleagues who still defend their votes. I mean, Senator Bennet said it was a bipartisan compromise. Jeanne Shaheen, Senator Shaheen, has defended it. And Angus King is -- has said that reimposing the capital requirements, as your bill would do, to roll back that deregulatory move, could push small and medium size banks out of business.

How do you respond to your fellow Democrats who are not on board with this?

WARREN: So re -- so remember that in 2018, the bill that was passed had a lot of different provisions, including a lot of provisions that lightened some of the regulations, made life easier for the community banks. And there were people who supported the bill because of that.

The part I'm concerned about is called Title 4 of the bill. And it’s Title 4 that says these multibillion-dollar banks, these banks with $50 billion or more in assets, should have wider regulation. Those are the banks for whom the principal regulator is the Federal Reserve Bank. And those are the banks that took on these risky practices that ultimately have, it appears, blown up at least three banks.

KARL: And those -- go ahead.

WARREN: And that’s the provision I want to see peeled back out of the law. We need tough regulation. If you’ve got more than $50 billion --

KARL: Right.

WARREN: Then, by golly, you ought to be subjected to stress tests and decent capital requirements and so on.

KARL: All right, we’re just about out of time, but I've got to ask you about these comments from Donald Trump calling for protests, saying he’s about to be arrested. Are you -- are you concerned about the possibility of violence?

WARREN: Look, violence is never the right answer and I always worry about it. But this is another case of Donald Trump just trying to advance the interests of Donald Trump, not of the rest of the nation.

Let’s be clear about what’s going on here. No one is above the law. Not even the former president of the United States. And if there has been an investigation, and that investigation should be allowed to go forward appropriately, if it’s time to bring indictments, then they’ll bring indictments. That’s how our legal system works.

Protests are just -- there’s no reason to protest this. This is the law operating as it should without fear or favor for anyone.

KARL: All right, Senator Warren, thank you for joining us this morning.

The roundtable weighs in on all of this next.

Plus, Mike Pence’s sharp words towards Ron DeSantis about America's role in Ukraine.

We’ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: The roundtable is here and ready to go. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I'm sure you heard Governor DeSantis say that the war in Ukraine is a territorial dispute. You would disagree?

MIKE PENCE, FORMER VICE PRESIDENT: The war in Ukraine is not a territorial dispute. It's a Russian invasion. It's just the latest incidence of Russia attempting to redraw international lines by force. And the United States of America must continue, at a quickened pace, to provide the Ukrainian military the support that they need to repel the Russian invasion. And that the stakes are that high. This is – this is a test of American leadership and a test, frankly, of the free world. And as the leader of the free world, as the arsenal of democracy, America needs to continue to ensure that the Ukrainian military has what they need. Anybody that thinks that Vladimir Putin will stop if he overruns Ukraine has another thing coming.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Mike Pence making the case for American support of Ukraine and standing in stark contrast to Ron DeSantis and to Donald Trump.

Let's bring in our roundtable.

Former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie, former DNC chair Donna Brazile, ABC News senior White House correspondent Mary Bruce, and ABC News political director Rick Klein.

So, I want to get to DeSantis in a minute. But, first, Governor Christie, what is Donald Trump doing, telling the world he's about to be arrested and calling for protests? What's going on?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: The circus continues. I mean, look, he only profits and does well in chaos and turmoil. And so he wants to create the chaos and turmoil on his terms. He doesn't want it on anybody else's terms. Jon, you know this. You know him well. He wants it on his terms. But, look, at the end, being indicted never helps anybody. It's not a help.

Now, I think that this -- of the three investigations, I think this is the one where people know the most. And so because they know the most, they're going to take it less seriously. I don't think there's many Americans who don’t believe that Donald Trump had an affair with Stormy Daniels and that don't believe that he paid her money at the end of the campaign to keep it quiet. So, I don't think that the American people probably see this as a huge crime. But the vision of a former president of the United States being processed, fingerprinted, mug shotted --

KARL: Mug shot.

CHRISTIE: You know, for -- what else do you expect Trump to say, as I said to George last week, than to say it helps his campaign. But, being indicted I don't think ever helps anybody.

KARL: And, Donna, is there any concern, though, about the – that this is the case. You have a democratically elected Manhattan D.A. prosecuting him over hush payments to a porn star? I mean this wouldn't be the one – this wouldn’t be the case Donna Brazile would – would – would --

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No, Stephanie Clifford is her actual name. She's a native of Louisiana. A -- she lived in Louisiana.

CHRISTIE: Of course, she is.

BRAZILE: So, yes. But let me just say this. Donald Trump was being provocative. Donald Trump was selling or advertising his next rally. Donald Trump was once again --

KARL: In Waco, Texas, by the way.

BRAZILE: In Waco, Texas, a week – a week from yesterday, next Saturday.

KARL: Yes.

BRAZILE: Donald Trump understands how to play this game. He – he believes that if he can get out in front of a story, no matter what the story is, and he can set the terms, then this is all about Donald Trump. Everything that happens in Donald Trump's mind and world is about him, his – his need for recognition and resources. His next tweet, if you’re doing poorly, as so many of you are – and, you know, I'm trying to act like Trump --

KARL: His Truth – you’re quoting Donald Trump here. Yes.

BRAZILE: Do not say anything. If you’re doing well, which was made possible by the Trump administration – notice he drops Pence all the time – he said, then send your donation. This is about Donald Trump. No one is above --

KARL: Raising money off this.

BRAZILE: No one is above the law. The – the – the last thing we want to see is a sequel to January 6th. We don't want any harm. I mean, people can protest peacefully, as the former vice president said. But to incite another mob, no.

KARL: And he is daring his other Republican rivals and potential rivals to come out and to attack this D.A. And one who has said nothing so far is DeSantis.

KLEIN: Yeah, look, I think he recognizes this is potentially a major in this -- in the early part of this campaign. It's putting people on record on Trump. It brings up January 6th all over again. And it raises the question that you got into in your interview with Mike Pence about whether there's any room there to be with Trump enough but not all the way, particularly when it's through the prism of a prosecutor in New York who has partisan leanings, knowing that this prosecution is questionable, knowing that it could blow up, knowing that there are stronger cases out there. How do Republicans handle this moment?

Are they going to -- are they going to parade the fact that Trump is potentially in handcuffs this week, or are they going to say, "Maybe this isn't the right case to bring, but, by the way, we disagree with him on other things?"

It tells you again how hard it is to walk this line on Trump.

And Pence comes out by attacking, but also in a measured way, politically charged, not politically motivated. What are Democrats saying, Mary?

BRUCE: Look, I think what's interesting, to Donna's point, is he's -- he's laying the groundwork here. That's what Donald Trump is doing. He's good at it. What strikes me about what Republicans are saying, also, is what Kevin McCarthy said yesterday, coming out and saying that he wants to launch an investigation into whether any federal funds were used in, you know, what he describes as this political persecution.

But it does, to Rick's point, show that Republicans are walking this incredibly fine line. What are Democrats doing? They're sitting back and watching the show. Right?

(CROSSTALK)

BRUCE: They are perfectly happy to sit back and watch this play out. And, yes, while Donald Trump can argue that, you know, this ultimately will politically help him; it will drive his numbers -- and it may very well, but I think for Democrats right now, they're going to sit back, let Republicans fight it out, let it show that Republicans are in this incredibly difficult position, trying to figure out how much to distance themselves from Trump. And certainly, you know, running against a felon wouldn't be a bad thing for Joe Biden.

KARL: But, Governor, what was Kevin McCarthy talking about?

CHRISTIE: Look, I think...

KARL: What -- seriously, what did he mean by that?

CHRISTIE: I think two things can exist at the same time, Jon.

KARL: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: Right? So you can look at Alvin Bragg as the Manhattan D.A., see that he's a partisan...

KARL: Yep.

CHRISTIE: ... see that he, in lots of people's opinions, including people who live in Manhattan, has failed doing his job regarding violent crime...

KARL: I mean, the mayor...

CHRISTIE: Eric Adams doesn't like Alvin Bragg.

KARL: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: But you can also think that Donald Trump is not someone who could be a winning general election candidate for the Republican Party because of all these things. Those two things can exist at the same time, and you're not walking a line; I think you're just telling the truth.

And so what I think Kevin McCarthy is doing is what Kevin's done all along, which is he's got a small majority of six votes in the House. He's got a very raucous caucus, and he's got to try to -- talk about someone who's walking the line. Kevin walks the line every day. So that's what he's doing, and so that's...

KARL: And Trump clearly will call on him to do that. I mean, he had to hear...

CHRISTIE: I don't even know that Trump has to call on him at this point to do it. I think that Kevin understands what he needs to do to manage his caucus. And, by the way, when he says things about Alvin Bragg that are partisan and negative, he's not wrong, in my view. But it also doesn't mean that Donald Trump...

KARL: But calling a federal investigation into the...

CHRISTIE: That's all he can do, Jon.

BRAZILE: This is the definition of weaponization. I mean, to weaponize and to go after a D.A. for doing his job, the D.A. is following the law. This is about the law.

CHRISTIE: We don't know that yet.

BRAZILE: Yeah, well, of course we don't know anything, but...

CHRISTIE: Right, so that's all I'm saying.

BRAZILE: But the point is he has said openly that he is going to follow the law. This is about the law, and we'll see -- and the one thing he has said, to his credit, he said, "I will -- I will do my part in the court, not, you know, on TV."

But, look, this is a party that continues to say that they are for law and order when it suits them. But it doesn't suit them when the crime is gun violence, when the crime is -- is seeing this country suffer from the kind of violence and crime across the board.

CHRISTIE: Look, I'm not going to stand up for that. Because...

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: No, no, what are -- what are you going to stand for?

CHRISTIE: Let me tell you who doesn't enforce law and order when it comes to gun violence. I go into New York City every week. It is a danger zone to go into Manhattan because Alvin Bragg is running a revolving door and not prosecuting gun crime, not prosecuting violent criminals. And if he does, he lets them out within four hours of when they're arrested to commit more crimes. So let's not get into that argument because Alvin Bragg has failed miserably. And all of a sudden, he wants to get up on Donald Trump.

KARL: But you do have Republicans that are going up against law enforcement now, you know, defund the FBI. I mean, for...

CHRISTIE: Well, that's wrong too.

KARL: You know, so -- but let me ask you about what we just heard from Mike Pence. He's obviously trying to -- he's coming out a little stronger against Donald Trump, but he can't quite go too far. What's your take, Rick? What's he trying to do? Is there a path?

KLEIN: Well, this is the big question that's looming over this race. We know about Trump. We might know about DeSantis, who's polling very well, but you're seeing a lot of breaks in Republican ranks with DeSantis as well.

KARL: But Trump still has this big segment of the electorate. Is there some group of that that might peel off and support another candidate?

And is there something else you can consolidate behind?

That's the notion that Pence is testing. Pretty clearly, he's running for president. He's saying all the things that you have to do, going to the places, like you were out with him in Iowa, to do it. And I think this is a calculated break, but it's a very Penceian break.

(LAUGHTER)

Because he's not going all the way, right? He's still taking that half a step back. He's still going to call out prosecutors. And he's still going to say that he was with Trump every step of the way until January 6th. That measured language, is that something that Republican primary voters are willing to go for? That is the big question that's going to loom over this race for awhile.

KARL: I mean, you still call him -- Mary?

BRUCE: Mike Pence has a loyally problem, right? I mean, is he loyal to Donald Trump's supporters or is he loyal to the part of the party that's trying to break away from Donald Trump? And he is walking this fine line, but I'm not sure how well that serves him ultimately, in the long run, politically. You know, we were discussing this. Do you have to pick a side at some point?

BRAZILE: Yes.

BRUCE: Because he's trying to, you know, appease everyone, and it's not sure how long that's going to work. And I think, you know, about him really, sort of, twisting himself into a pretzel there, trying not to be too critical of Donald Trump. You know, he'll say that line that history will hold him accountable.

KARL: He still says he's a man of his word.

BRUCE: Yes, yes, and that -- and that people were disappointed in his actions in the run-up to January 6th. And this is an issue where I think Mike Pence is also really going to have a problem, because think about those days in the run-up to January 6th. He was not exactly someone who was there calling out conspiracy theories about election fraud. He was not telling Donald Trump to "knock it off." And he certainly, since then, has not been outspoken about election deniers. He campaigned for some of them in the midterms.

So which side is Mike Pence going to be on? And there certainly is an opportunity for him now, especially as you see DeSantis and Trump try and slug it out, there's a middle road there that Pence can take. But he's got to be careful, I think, in how he -- he moves forward here.

CHRISTIE: Look, I introduced Mike Pence to Donald Trump.

KARL: So this is your fault?

(LAUGHTER)

CHRISTIE: OK, he didn't know Donald Trump, had never met him until the spring of 2016. So I've known Donald Trump three times longer than Mike Pence has. And Donald Trump's not a man of to his word, like, so let's just say it. I mean, and if you think, you're -- ask David Perdue in Georgia if Donald Trump's a man of his word.

KARL: Who he tried to get -- who he got to run...

(CROSSTALK)

CHRISTIE: ... for the race as governor, and then -- and then backed away from him when the polls weren't good. Ask Doug Mastriano in Pennsylvania if he's a man of his word. Ask those folks whether they stood by him and he stood by his promises.

But I think the bigger problem is the question for someone like Vice President Pence, I'd suggest, would be, at 2:30 in the morning on election night, how did you feel when you heard Donald Trump standing in the East Room of the White House behind the seal of the president, saying the election had been stolen? Did you agree with that?

And if you didn't, then why didn't you come out and say something? And so I think giving him the leeway to January 6th is pretty generous, Jon.

KARL: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: Because the rhetoric that caused January 6th started that night.

KARL: I mean, you are correct, and in fact it started before election night. He started laying the groundwork.

BRAZILE: Yeah.

KARL: So before we go, Rick, Republicans have come out and piled on big-time on Ron DeSantis. I mean, we see this, kind of, like, you know, being sensitive about not taking on Trump too directly. I mean, they -- after what he said about Ukraine with the territorial dispute...

KLEIN: Yeah.

KARL: ... what do you make of this?

KLEIN: DeSantis is taking the Trump position, but they're criticizing DeSantis, not Trump, on Ukraine. I think they smell blood. They see some vulnerability. And I think they are echoing, including many elected officials and some potential candidates. They're echoing some of the concerns that are out there in the Republican donor world. Is DeSantis really the guy? He hasn't been tested on the national or international stage. And can he do the thing that others are worried about doing? Can you be Trumpy enough, but find some -- find an avenue to break?

KARL: And I want to read something Chris Sununu said about DeSantis this week. He said, "No one's gotten to know him the way they need to get to know him. I don't know if they ever will. Do you think Ron DeSantis ever sat down for a cup of coffee with a reporter? No. It's, like, physically not in him. He can't do it. He doesn't have the social connection with folks.

What do you make of it? Right now, he's the leading alternative to -- to Trump.

CHRISTIE: Well, look...

KARL: He's not running yet. He hasn't announced, but...

CHRISTIE: And, by the way, in 2015, Jeb Bush and Scott Walker were the front-runners at this moment in the race, in March of 2015. So I don't think it much matters. I think what matters is how you perform. And ultimately, he had his first moment for performance this week, and in my view, he failed miserably.

KARL: On Ukraine?

CHRISTIE: On Ukraine. Look, a territorial dispute, Jon, is when you get your property surveyed, where your house is, and they come back and say, "Your neighbor's fence is six inches into your property."

(LAUGHTER)

That's a territorial dispute. not when you take tanks and artillery into a free country and try to take their land and their people by force.

BRAZILE: There -- look, there's only two lanes in the Republican Party right now, the Trump lane, and he occupies it 100 percent, and the anti-Trump lane. Mr. DeSantis is trying to get into the Trump lane, and he's going to get badly beaten. I don't think he will do very well. You know why, Chris? I've seen you work a room. I don't think he can work a room.

KARL: All right. On that note, we are out of time.

Coming up, Rachel Scott follows the money, looking at trillions of dollars in pandemic stimulus funds and the scammers who took advantage. That's next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Too much of small business relief funding, which was passed by the Congress, ended up in the hands of those who either didn't need it or criminal syndicates who outright stole the money.

My message to those cheats is this: you can't hide. We're going to find you. We're going to make you pay back what you stole and hold you accountable under the law.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was President Biden signing legislation to extend the statute of limitations for some pandemic-related fraud.

Senior congressional correspondent Rachel Scott follows up on the effort to crack down on COVID funding fraud as part of her series "Through the Cracks."

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

SCOTT (voice-over): It's been called an unprecedented wave of fraud.

DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Tonight in Florida, a pastor and his son arrested for allegedly stealing more than $8 million in federal COVID relief funds.

SCOTT: Scammers taking advantage of government aid for businesses, used instead to buy mansions, luxury handbags, sports cars, cryptocurrency, even a rare Pokemon card.

Three years later, unsuspecting victims are still paying the price.

KATHLEEN KANTOR, ALLEGED FRAUD VICTIM: The loan was for $92,500, and it was for my livestock farm. I don't have a livestock farm.

SCOTT: As COVID-19 spread and the country shut down, Congress approved the largest stimulus package in history, the $2 trillion Cares Act, a lifeline to businesses, hospitals and local governments on the verge of economic ruin.

MICHAEL HOROWITZ, CHAIR, PANDEMIC RESPONSE ACCOUNTABILITY COMMITTEE: A decision was made at the outset of the pandemic, speed was the key. We're going to send the money out. We're not going to vet people. That was a bad choice.

SCOTT: Inspector General Michael Horowitz, now leading the team of independent watchdogs tracking trillions in pandemic relief, says the Small Business Administration ignored key warnings.

SCOTT (on camera): What recommendations specifically were ignored?

HOROWITZ: Well, the Small Business Administration inspector general, right at the outset of the pandemic said, stop relying on self-certifications. Check people. Make sure they’re real people. That didn't happen until 2021.

SCOTT (voice over): ABC News reviewed several reports from the SBA inspector general and found a troubling pattern. The agency was late, taking a recommended step to weed out fraudulent loan applications that should not have been approved, and for a year had no system to track identity theft claims as they came in.

Richard Loew was a practicing physician for 37 years. He says he and his wife Donna got a letter from the SBA demanding they pay back $100,000 in loans they say they never took out for a farm that doesn't exist.

RICHARD LOEW, FRAUD VICTIM: Our I.D.s were stolen by someone who took out two SBA loans. Those SBA loans have caused the government to hound us.

SCOTT: According to the government's top watchdog, the SBA awarded $5.4 billion in small business relief to nearly 70,000 applicants with suspect Social Security Numbers. Two administrations and more than $5 trillion in aid later, investigators are still scrambling to make sense of how much of that money has been siphoned off by fraudsters.

SCOTT (on camera): Do we have any idea what the scope is of the fraud?

HOROWITZ: I've said it wouldn't surprise me if it exceeds well over $100 billion, but we're still chasing the money and following the fraud.

SCOTT (voice over): In a statement to ABC News, the SBA declined to comments on the Loew’s situation, but says it is committed to providing expeditious relief to victims of identity theft. With the Biden administration prepared to announce an executive order, that officials have promised for months, focused on aiding and protecting victims, as the Justice Department's team of Covid fraud partners continues to go after scammers.

SCOTT (on camera): Is there any resource for those victims of fraud?

HOROWITZ: It's very hard. For the victims of fraud, the federal government has not done a particularly effective job in helping victims of identity theft. SCOTT (voice over): For THIS WEEK, Rachel Scott, ABC News, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Our thanks to Rachel. Her full report tracking pandemic fraud airs this Tuesday on “ABC NEWS LIVE PRIME WITH LINSEY DAVIS.”

We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "WORLD NEWS TONIGHT." Have a great day.

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