'This Week' Transcript 4-23-23: Sen. Mark Warner and Rep. Nancy Mace
This is a rush transcript of "This Week" airing Sunday, April 23.
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 23, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR (voice over): Daring rescue. Overnight, as fighting in Sudan escalates, U.S. forces safely evacuate embassy workers but leave behind thousands of Americans who had been warned to leave. James Longman and Colonel Steve Ganyard with the latest.
Access upheld.
SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): This fight is far from over. We have to keep doing everything we can.
MIKE PENCE< FORMER U.S. VICE PRESIDENT: We have an opportunity to advance the sanctity of life.
RADDATZ: The Supreme Court preserves the availability of a popular abortion drug, as the legal battle continues.
This morning, we cover all the fallout with South Carolina Congresswoman Nancy Mace and Virginia Senator Mark Warner. Plus, our powerhouse roundtable.
Senseless violence.
KINSLEY WHITE: Why did you shoot my daddy and me?
RADDATZ: Small mistakes lead to tragic shootings across the country.
ANDREW GILLIS: And he fired at them as they were leaving the driveway.
LEE HEWITT: Everyone who comes on your porch is not open season.
RADDATZ: We’ll examine what’s causing this spate of violence with chief justice correspondent Pierre Thomas, police chief Jason Armstrong, and Allison Anderman of The Giffords Law Center.
Plus.
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI: You have to just prepare for the worst and hope for the best.
RADDATZ: A late night war game on Capitol Hill. Our exclusive access as Congress games out a Chinese invasion of Taiwan.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it is THIS WEEK. Here now, Martha Raddatz.
RADDATZ: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK.
The high-stakes legal battle over access to a widely used abortion pill in the U.S. is on hold for now after the Supreme Court, on Friday, preserved access to the drug while a lawsuit over its approval works its way through the courts. We’ll have much more on that story later this morning, but we begin with breaking news overnight.
A dramatic military operation in Africa to rescue U.S. diplomats and their families from the war-torn capital of Sudan. Nearly 100 people were airlifted from the U.S. embassy in Khartoum under the cover of darkness and with the protection of more than 100 U.S. special operations forces. Three Chinook helicopters were on the ground in Sudan for less than an hour before flying the Americans across the border to Ethiopia.
President Biden announced the successful operation in a statement and promised to help the thousands of Americans still in the country to the extent possible, as Sudan slips further into chaos after nine days of ferocious fighting.
ABC News foreign correspondent James Longman leads us off.
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JAMES LONGMAN, ABC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This morning, a major sigh of relief as all personnel from the U.S. embassy in Khartoum and their families have been safely evacuated from Sudan.
AMB. JOHN BASS, UNDER SECRETARY OF STATE FOR MANAGEMENT: As a result of the intensity of the conflict, we reluctantly decided it was time to suspend operations.
LONGMAN: U.S. special operations forces making the daring rescue operation under the cover of darkness. The Pentagon saying three Chinook helicopters took off from a U.S. base in Djibouti and refueled in Ethiopia, flying 800 miles to the Sudanese capital. On the ground for less than an hour, they rescued fewer than 100 people, including Americans and other nationals. President Biden praising the, quote, unmatched skill of the 100 and so special forces members involved.
Leaders across the world scrambling to pull their nationals out of Sudan amid days of fighting. And a shaky cease-fire leaving only a small window of opportunity.
Saudi Arabia releasing this footage showing their first group of foreign nationals were safely evacuated and they’re back on Saudi soil.
The fighting between the two warring military groups has only escalated as it enters its second week. It’s already claimed at least 400 lives, including one American. The Biden administration has been warning private American citizens about the danger, saying they can’t count on the U.S. government to get them out.
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: It is not our standard procedure to evacuate American citizens living abroad.
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LONGMAN: And that’s the focus now, Martha, figuring out how to get other U.S. citizens out of the country. One option is Port Sudan. It is on the Red Sea and other countries have used it to get their citizens out. The issue is it is some 500 miles always from Khartoum, and it is too dangerous right now to leave your house, let alone the city. It is worth repeating, 16,000 Americans are still thought stranded in Sudan.
Martha.
RADDATZ: James Longman, thanks.
Let's bring in our ABC military analyst, Colonel Steve Ganyard.
And, Steve, I know you’ve worked at the State Department and the Pentagon. How dangerous was this evaluation? I know Khartoum is not Kabul, but still a lot could have gone wrong.
COL. STEVE GANYARD, ABC MILITARY ANALYST: It’s – it’s dangerous. In some ways that it’s easier. And it’s – in some ways that it’s harder. So, in Sudan you have two warlords fighting it out overpower and money. It’s not a sectarian fight. It’s not a civil war.
It’s harder in the sense that the U.S. military has nobody on the ground, no ability to create a safe cordon, no ability to fence off the landing areas. It’s easier in the sense that it’s not the U.S.' fight and that both of the warlords have a vested interest in allowing the U.S. to pull its people safely.
RADDATZ: But I suppose in that case the biggest threat was – was mistakes. I mean presumably they were not targeting Americans, but mistakes can happen.
GANYARD: Right. Think about what these crews did. Three special operations Chinooks flying 800 miles and 100 feet at night, on night vision goggles, having to land halfway, get gas, come into Khartoum, where there's active combat going on, land in a combat that they’ve never – a combat zone that they’ve never seen – seen before. So, lots of room for mistakes.
You remember back in 1980, in Desert One, and the terrible disaster, trying to get the Iranian hostages out. And since then, the U.S. military has learned so much. Training is better. The equipment is better. And they’ve done so many of these hostage rescues around the world the past few years that they’ve made it look almost routine.
RADDATZ: And, Steve, what about those American citizens left behind? Sixteen thousand of them, many of those dual citizens, but all were warned to leave. The State Department says they will assist, but they’re not there anymore, so what -- what can they really do?
GANYARD: Yes, the – interestingly, the Pentagon, overnight, said that they could maybe think about setting up a safe corridor between Khartoum and Port Sudan. And that presumably using drones would allow the U.S. Navy to take people out by the sea. But this is going to be a very dicey situation.
The thing that’s different here, Martha, is that at least the citizens kin Khartoum don't have to worry about the Taliban knocking on doors in the middle in the night. A very different situation. If they can hold out long enough so that corridor can be opened up, they should be much safer than those U.S. citizens left in Kabul.
RADDATZ: OK. Thanks very much, Steve.
And there was, of course, big news here in Washington this week. The Supreme Court deciding to keep in place access to the abortion drug Mifepristone, for now. The action blocked lower court rulings that would have scrapped the FDA's approval of the widely used pill and made it harder to obtain. But the decision guaranteed that the legal battle over the drug's availability will stay at the forefront of the national abortion debate, and that the issue could return to the highest court as early as next year.
Joining us now to discuss the fallout is Republican Congresswoman Nancy Mace.
Thanks very much for joining us this morning.
You describe yourself as pro-life, but on this particular case you thought it should be thrown out completely.
REP. NANCY MACE, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: Right. Right.
RADDATZ: What’s – what’s your reaction to what the Supreme Court did?
MACE: Well, it was the right decision on Friday night by the Supreme Court. The judge’s decision in Texas, this was a hand-picked case with a hand-picked judge to get this outcome. And when you look at the ruling in Texas, in part at least, it used a law that the U.S. Supreme Court, in 1983, said was unconstitutional. So, the basis for his ruling, I ague, was debunked and it should not have been. And I totally disagree with it.
RADDATZ: And this isn’t over. There are other cases moving through the court system. How do you see this ending up? How do you want this to end up?
MACE: Well, I want us to find some middle ground. As a Republican and conservative, constitutional conservative who’s pro-life, I saw what happened after Roe v. Wade because I represent a very purple district, as purple as this dress, and I saw the sentiment change dramatically. And as Republicans, we need to read the room on this issue because the vast majority of folks are not in the extremes.
And we just saw, you know, a fetal heartbeat bill signed in the dead of night recently in Florida. There are – in my home state of South Carolina, there was a small – a very small group of state legislatures that filed a bill that would execute women who have abortions and gave right – more rights to rapists than women who have been raped.
That is the wrong message heading into ’24. We’re going to – we’re going to lose huge if we continue down this path of extremities. And finding that middle ground, the vast majority of people want some sort of gestational limits, not at – you know, not at nine months, but somewhere in the middle. They want exceptions for rape and incest. They want women to have access to birth control. These are all very common-sense positions that we can take and still be pro-life.
RADDATZ: You heard Ron DeSantis talk about the six-week abortion ban. You’re talking about other Republicans and finding a middle ground. But there’s not a lot of discussion about finding a middle ground in the Republican Party. In fact, there’s not a lot of discussion about abortion in general. You’ve got DeSantis. You’ve got Mike Pence who wants to ban abortion.
They’ll talk about it. But, generally, Republicans are staying away from -- from it. Didn’t help them in the midterms.
MACE: It hurt us in the midterms. We actually lost seats.
As a Republican, I told my story on the campaign trail. I actually ran an ad about my own circumstances. I was raped as a teenager and talked about how I would work and protect women who have been raped, girls who are victims of incest.
And rather than by winning by one point, like I did two years ago, I ended up winning by 14 points. And we made this issue part of our campaign because I want women to know you can be pro-life and be pro-woman. They’re -- they’re not mutually exclusive.
But we’ve hidden away from this issue. We’ve buried our head in the sand. We’re afraid to talk about it because we’re afraid -- we want to -- we want to go to the extreme corners of this issue, but that’s not where the vast majority of Americans are right now. And we’ve got to show compassion, especially to victims who have been raped.
The Florida bill mandated that women who were raped, to get that exception, had to report it to the -- to the police, had to get evidence at a hospital. And I will tell you, based on my own experiences, it took me a week before I was actually able to tell somebody what happened to me.
And by that time, there was no evidence. There’s nothing you can collect at that point.
And, you know, that puts heavy, heavy restrictions on these victims. And there are millions of women everywhere who have gone through this. I'm not the only one.
RADDATZ: I want to turn to something you voted on this week and something you feel strongly about. You voted Thursday to bar transgender athletes from women’s sports. Forty professional athletes say that is a mistake.
Why do you feel differently?
MACE: Well, I mean, this is the left’s new war on women. I mean both sides, whether it’s the extreme right on abortion, or the extreme left on biological men and women’s sports, we have come so far.
I don’t want to see biological men take away the achievements of women and girls. I told this story on Thursday. I was molested by a friend of one of my coaches at the age of 14. I was raped by a classmate at the age of 16.
Before a girl ever sets foot in the pool, or on the court, or on the field, she’s already in a very venerable position. And we’ve worked hundreds of years for our achievements. It took 100 years for the state of South Carolina -- 100 years after women’s suffrage, to get their first Republican woman in Congress when I won in 2020.
RADDATZ: I want to go back to those athletes.
MACE: Yeah.
RADDATZ: Why -- why do you know more than those athletes?
MACE: Well, if you read the story --
RADDATZ: They came up through -- through youth sports.
MACE: Well, Riley Gaines, OK? Their -- also the athletes that we’ve met along the way.
There was a story last week in Wisconsin where 14-year-old girls were forced to share a locker room and showers. An 18-year-old boy, biological male whose, I guess, a trans girl now, but he exposed himself in the shows to these young, underage girls.
My girl is about to be 14. I can’t imagine if there were men in her locker room exposing themselves.
And you hear these stories -- you hear these stories more frequently as we go on. And it’s -- and it’s wrong. It is a war on women. It’s a different war on women, but it’s still a war on women.
RADDATZ: It’s obviously wrong to expose yourself.
But I -- I want to talk about the Republican governor of Utah, Spencer Cox. He vetoed a similar bill in his state. It was eventually overruled.
But this is what the governor said, when data only showed four transgender kids playing high school sports in Utah. Four kids who were just trying to find some friends and feel like they are a part of something. Four kids trying to get through each day. Rarely has so much fear and anger been directed at so few. I don’t understand what they are going through or why they feel the way they do, but I want them to live.
Obviously talking about the extremely high suicide rates among the transgender population.
MACE: Right. And, look, I'm an -- I'm a pro-LGBTQ Republican. That’s not what this is about.
We don’t want anyone committing suicide because we’ve taken this position. To conflate the two is a radical and extreme position to take. But we want -- what we do want to do is protect women and girls. I mean, it took 154 years before the Citadel admitted women. And I was the first female graduate of that college.
You see women whose achievements, whether it’s a medal in an athletic event, or they’re losing scholarships, or they’re begin exposed, underage, in a locker room, those things are wrong.
And though it doesn’t happen all day, every day, but the -- we still want to protect our women and girls. And when you talk to parents of these girls, when you talk to the girls directly, they’re very angry about it. They’re very upset about it.
We don’t want to keep anyone from competing -- I mean, but these are biological men. They’re much stronger. They shouldn’t be in the locker rooms. And you hear these stories. And they’re real.
It’s not a -- it’s not a fantasy. It’s not a conspiracy theory. These are happening. These things are happening to women and girls across the country.
RADDATZ: OK. Thanks very much for joining us this morning.
MACE: Thank you.
RADDATZ: And we’re joined now by Democratic Senator Mark Warner, chair of the Senate Intelligence Committee.
Thanks for joining us this morning.
SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): Thank you, Martha.
I want to go back to the Supreme Court's decision to allow full access to the abortion pill. How do you read the court on this in regards to the other cases coming up? What do you think is going to happen there?
WARNER: I'm not sure how to read it. I do know that it was the judge’s decision in Texas. I think it was crazy. The notion that you would take a drug that has been used safely for more than two decades and somehow then take that away from availability. You know, I, frankly, think this is an issue that women's healthcare choices ought to be made by women and the idea of this judge so radically intervening with a safe procedure, you know, frankly, not only about women’s healthcare choices, but it undermines the very integrity of our FDA process. And I think the court got it right, but who knows where their ultimate decision will be.
RADDATZ: Are - -are you worried about abortion access for your constituents? Governor Glenn Youngkin made it clear his administration will prioritize limiting access to abortions.
WARNER: I think that is not where the vast majority of Virginians are at. And I think as you see these moves towards even a six-week ban in Florida, that voters, I think, will overwhelmingly reject those kind of policies.
RADDATZ: And – and I want to turn now to -- to Sudan quickly if we can. You are on the Intelligence Committee. What have you seen about what is going to happen there next, and -- and in particular those American citizens?
WARNER: Well, I think, first of all, we ought to commend the military and the intelligence community for getting our diplomatic personnel out. That was a dangerous mission to take them out by helicopter. I think we made – been very clear literally since 2021 that Americans should not travel to Sudan. The vast majority of those – the numbers that have been bandied around, 16,000, are dual nationals, Sudanese Americans. Those individuals who are there on aid missions. There is actually a U.N. effort now to get people from Khartoum out over the land corridor. And I know we are working with a lot of international partners. In this case, partners from the Middle East even, I believe, working with – with China and Europeans to say, those aid workers, we need to find a safe way to get – to get them out. In the meantime, though, they do need to shelter in place until those convoys are put in place.
RADDATZ: And – and let’s talk about those intelligence documents. It’s been going on for several weeks, but it seems to get worse and worse. More documents leaked. The Pentagon apparently unaware that they were linked many, many, many months ago.
When you look at this, who should you point the finger at?
WARNER: Well, first of all, Martha, this is a problem that we shouldn’t be totally surprised at. We’ve known for a long time we way overclassify documents. Matter of fact, the default position is always to classify, number one. Number two, we don't have a single entity in charge. So, in many cases, what may be classified within the intelligence community may be different types of documents than the DOD.
The third thing is, once we get to that highest level of classification, we maybe have too many folks taking a look at them. Over 4 million people with clearances. So, let's classify less –
RADDATZ: A computer technician.
WARNER: Well, a computer technician, if this had been at a -- another entity, another agency, like the NSA, where, unfortunately, we’ve had leaks in the past, there would have been internal controls that would have said, you just can't copy that many documents. We need to make sure we’ve got similar internal controls across the whole system. I believe we need somebody fully in charge of the classification process. And I believe for those – those classified documents, there ought to be a smaller universe.
And this individual was literally -- was just an IT tech, there's no reason that that person should be able to see the full document. You may have to see the header, but the actual contents, there's ways to make this safer.
We’ve known this has been a problem. We actually have to have, I believe, Congress intervened, and we have to do a better job. And, frankly, this individual, I think, clearly if -- is proven to be the case that he was the leaker, he needs to be prosecuted to the full extent of the law.
RADDATZ: Are – are you satisfied with what you have heard from the administration? I know in the very early days the Pentagon was saying, look, we have safety things in place so this can’t happen. Clearly, that did not work. So, are you satisfied with what you have already heard in your briefings?
WARNER: I think this is still an evolving case. The one thing that we’ve got to do a better job on, and I've been a big advocate of security clearance reform. We can't go to the other end of the spectrum where somebody has to wait a year or two before they get a security clearance if they want to go work for something like the CIA. But what we say we're going to do to security clearance reform, we then have to put in place something called continuous vetting, so you are vetted along the way on an ongoing basis. But it really raises really hard questions. You know, should that vetting me, of course it -- you should be able to look at your public Facebook postings, but when we’re talking about something that’s a private chat room with the so-called Discord site, that raises a whole series of other questions I don't think we’ve sorted through enough.
RADDATZ: And -- and very quickly, if you will, Senator, Dianne Feinstein, your Intelligence Committee colleague, has been away from the Senate since February with – with shingles. Should she resign?
WARNER: Listen, I'm hopeful that Dianne will return as soon as possible. I served with her on the Intelligence Committee. She's been a great senator. But my hope is she'll get back to work as soon as possible.
RADDATZ: OK, thanks very much for joining us...
WARNER: Thank you, Martha.
RADDATZ: ... this morning, Senator.
The roundtable is coming up. Plus, after a week of wrong-address mistakes leading to a series of shootings across the country, Pierre Thomas and our panel analyze the state of gun violence in America. Stay with us.
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(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GWENDOLYN GRANT, CEO, URBAN LEAGUE OF GREATER KANSAS CITY: We are challenged just walking while black, and now we can't even walk up to someone's door and ring a doorbell without fear of being murdered.
SHERIFF JEFFREY MURPHY, WASHINGTON COUNTY, NEW YORK: They turned around, were heading down a driveway, obviously no threat if they're driving away. And that's when Mr. Monahan chose to fire at the vehicles.
ALEX STANISZEWSKI, GASTON COUNTY, NORTH CAROLINA: It's an absolute travesty that what should have just been a mild conversation with a child about anything turned into someone getting shot.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ: From Missouri to New York to North Carolina, a string of innocent mistakes transformed into tragedies. What's fueling this fear and paranoia? And what justifies a Stand Your Ground self-defense?
We'll speak with our panel of experts after this report from chief justice correspondent Pierre Thomas.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PIERRE THOMAS, ABC NEWS CHIEF JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT (voice over): This week, a series of maddening tragedies.
DISPATCHER: Somebody is saying their child has been shot.
THOMAS: A family shot because a basketball rolled onto someone else's property.
(UNKNOWN): Why did you shoot my daddy and me?
THOMAS: Two cheerleaders shot because one got into the wrong car after practice.
(UNKNOWN): He pulled out a gun and he just started shooting at all of us.
THOMAS: A 16-year-old boy critically wounded for simply knocking on the wrong door.
KLINT LUDWIG, GRANDSON OF ALLEGED SHOOTER: I feel like a lot of people of that generation are caught up in this 24-hour news cycle of fear and paranoia.
THOMAS: And a young woman fatally shot when the car she was in simply drove up the wrong driveway.
ANDREW GILLIS, FATHER OF KAYLIN GILLIS: For this man to sit on his porch and fire at a car with no threat.
THOMAS: We were warned about this disturbing trend of spontaneous gun violence last fall by one of America's top police officers.
DAVID BROWN, FORMER CHICAGO POLICE SUPERINTENDENT: The bottom line is the inability to resolve personal conflicts that, you know, escalate to gun violence.
THOMAS: This should be no surprise. America, for a variety of reasons, culturally and because of interpretations of the Constitution, has embraced firearms like no other country on the planet.
The numbers tell the story of the country's voracious appetite for firearms. In the last three years, the FBI has conducted over 100 million background checks as people sought to buy guns. And there are an estimated 400 million guns already in circulation in the United States, more guns than people.
JOSH HORWITZ, CO-DIRECTOR, JOHNS HOPKINS CENTER FOR GUN VIOLENCE SOLUTIONS: The problems with guns is fueling what we are seeing -- we are seeing the idea that we are a shoot-first culture. Everyone seems to be afraid. They’ve been told to be afraid.
THOMAS: So many guns and so many opportunities for them to be in the hands of people who should not have them, like the recent mass shootings done by people clearly struggling with mental health issues.
A recent surge in gun sales coincided with the timeline of the pandemic. Some analysts say it was a witch’s brew moment -- more guns pouring into society in a moment when people faced economic uncertainty and anxiety. The impact of it all clearly lingering.
HORWITZ: With all these guns, science tells us what we saw this week is predictable.
THOMAS: With no end in sight.
For “This Week”, Pierre Thomas, ABC News, Washington.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ: Our thanks to Pierre.
Let's take a closer look at the issue now with two experts on gun violence and law enforcement. Apex, North Carolina Police Chief Jason Armstrong, who previously led the police force in Ferguson, Missouri; and Allison Anderman, senior counsel and director of local policy at the Giffords Law Center. Thanks to both of you for joining us this morning.
And, Chief, I want to start with this. You saw those terrible events in the past few weeks. You’ve seen a lot of bad things happen.
Did this shock you? Why is this happening now?
CHIEF JASON ARMSTRONG, APEC, NC POLICE DEPARTMENT: Unfortunately, it did not shock me. We’ve seen a lot of violence across the country, especially coming out of the pandemic. We’ve seen an uptick in gun violence.
And with everything that we’ve seen, it’s just more and more people are on the edge. More and more people are fearful of things happening to them and we see, unfortunately, more and more people are quicker to resort to gun violence as opposed to trying to work out whatever issue they’re dealing with.
RADDATZ: And, Allison, you track state firearm safety and legislation. Are their laws on the book -- we mentioned stand your ground and you have concealed carry -- that contribute to this?
ALLISON ANDERMAN, ASENIOR COUNSEL & DIRECTOR OF LOCAL POLICY, GIFFORDS LAW CENTER: Unfortunately, yes. We know that stand your ground laws which upends centuries of common law on self-defense and allow people to carry guns outside of the home and really take another life even if they could have retreated safely from a confrontation are increasing numbers of justifiable and unjustifiable homicides.
RADDATZ: And, Chief, do you see the stand your ground law making a difference? Are people aware of it? Is it on their mind all the time?
ARMSTRONG: From what I’ve seen, I don't think a lot of people are aware of it until there's an incident that happens where it becomes a topic of discussion. A lot of people in the course of my career that I have come across, they are very -- rarely are they familiar with all of the laws that are on the books and how those laws are applied.
And so, I think, you know, a big contributor to what we're seeing right now is just, you know, people are not able to do with conflict from other people and gun violence is what they’re resorting to. And I think the laws applying to it are secondary in what’s going on in a heat of a moment.
RADDATZ: And, Allison, gun manufacturers and gun lobby groups often market their firearm ownership in terms of self-defense. And in 2022, the NRA super PAC ran digital ads against Senate candidates in battleground states, including Mark Kelly there in Arizona and targeting your group specifically.
Let's watch.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIPS, CAMPAIGN ADS)
AD ANNOUNCER: Kelly cofounded a radical gun-control group promoting anti-gun liberals across the country, making Arizona less safe. Don't be left defenseless.
AD ANNOUNCER: Dr. Oz is committed to keeping our communities safe. Protect your family.
ANNOUNCER: Violence crime is out of control. It’s time for a change, Nevada. Defend your rights to self-defense.
(END VIDEO CLIPS)
RADDATZ: Your reaction to that?
ANDERMAN: I think there is a narrative in this country being pushed by gun -- the gun industry and certain legislators that a person needs to be armed in public at all times to be safe. That they have a constitutional right to shoot someone at the slightest provocation.
And to Chief Armstrong's points, they may not know about stand your ground laws specifically, but they certainly hear the messaging in the press and in political campaigns that I think are enabling this violence.
RADDATZ: And, Chief, just look at this in a bigger way. What -- what really needs to happen here to stop this kind of reaction, to have people drive up your driveway and be shot? What do you see is the solution there? What would you tell the people of Apex, North Carolina?
ARMSTRONG: I think a big part of the solution is education and having those -- having those conversations with people in your community and help educate them on, you know, proper gun ownership and -- and how they can, you know, have a gun but also be mindful in -- in how they use that gun because we -- we run through these scenarios all the time and we know that more guns are out there and more people in the communities have guns.
RADDATZ: And you are dealing with emotion, too.
ARMSTRONG: Absolutely. And so, we talk about it. We respond to an incident and people have guns, we don't know who the assailant is and who is a lawful gun owner that's trying to stop a situation. And so those are extra scenarios that we have to run through as law enforcement in how we respond to scenes and how we respond to incidents. And so the more conversations that we can have on the front end with people in our community, it helps educate them, you know, on proper gun ownership and what the law says and how they apply, I think, is how we will see some better end results in some of these situations.
RADDATZ: Thanks so much. And thanks both of you for joining us this morning on a very complicated issue.
Coming up, President Biden is preparing to announce his re-election bid as Donald Trump reasserts his dominance over the Republican Party. Powerhouse Roundtable weighs in next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
MARY BRUCE, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Does the president have any plans to mark the fourth anniversary of his announcement of his 2020 campaign?
KARINE JEAN-PIERRE, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: That’s very – that is very good.
BRUCE: I had to try.
JEAN-PIERRE: You had to try. I don't have anything else beyond the week ahead that I just laid out, but I really appreciate the effort. That was very good.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: That was ABC News new chief White House correspondent Mary Bruce pressing the White House on President Biden's re-election announcement, which could come as soon as this week.
Let's bring in the roundtable.
Former Justice Department Spokesperson Sarah Isgur, former North Dakota Senator Heidi Heitkamp, ABC News senior national correspondent Terry Moran, and “Washington Post” congressional reporter Marianna Sotomayor.
Welcome to all of you this morning. We’ve got a lot to get to. And, Heidi, I'm going to start with you. And I do want to turn back to the Supreme Court decision on Mifepristone. A win for Democrats now, but what do you see is coming next?
HEIDI HEITKAMP, (D) FORMER NORTH DAKOTA SENATOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I – I – I think that it is going to be extraordinarily difficult for the Republican Party to justify reversing a decision that was made 20 years ago. And every day that this issue is on the front page, that it seems like everything is so extreme on that side is a day that they aren’t talking about inflation, they aren’t talking about the issues they want to talk about. They’re talking about an issue that is a net loser for them in the 2024 election.
RADDATZ: And, Sarah, you were at the Justice Department. You are a lawyer. When you looked at this decision, and only two justices dissented publicly, Alito and – and Clarence Thomas, we don't really know what else went on in there, and we’ve got all these other cases coming up.
SARAH ISGUR, FORMER JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, I mean, first of all, to the extent that the justices thought they were going to get out of the abortion business after Dobbs, clearly not the case. There are a lot of these similar type cases percolating at the lower courts.
Second, though, you know, it feels like the courts get attacked whenever a decision comes out the way people don't like. And I just think it’s worth noting, like, remember this, remember Bostock, that it’s not simply that the courts lacked integrity just because you don't like the decision. And here, frankly, at the Supreme Court level, this decision wasn’t actually about abortion, it was about who has the injury to bring this lawsuit in the first place, and conserves should be a little careful. If these doctors can bring a challenge on Mifepristone, I don't see what a similar group of doctors could bring a charge against gun manufacturers. This idea that you’re injured by being an emergency room doctor helping patients with something.
RADDATZ: And, Terry, when the justices ruled to overturn Roe versus Wade ten months ago, they indicated they wanted to be done with the issue, writing in the majority opinion, the authority to regulate abortion is returned to the people and their elected representatives.
Is that realistic?
TERRY MORAN, SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, it’s not happening. And that was Justice Alito. He said it again and again. And yet what they’re seeing is that there is something in some of these courts. I think what this stay was, was really the Supreme Court, at least five members, saying, enough is enough with the craziness of this case, as Sarah described it. The way it came into court was somewhat shocking. There was something reckless and wild about it. And I think, you know, what you see in the pharmaceutical industry and in other industries is, wait a minute, if – if we're going to get cases like this any Tom, Dick or Harry can waltz into federal court and overturn a federal agency's decision based on all the proper process and science 20 years standing, what's next?
MORAN: And I think that was very alarming. The court is going to see more of these because it's clear there are Republican judges willing to do it.
RADDATZ: And -- and let's talk about the politics of this more, Marianna. Republicans, Sarah pointed out, Heidi pointed out do, kind of, struggle to find this middle ground when they talk. You heard Nancy Mace, but she is not in the majority.
MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR, “WASHINGTON POST” CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: Right, Nancy Mace is someone who is in the House Republican majority but is absolutely a minority voice on this. When you're talking to House Republicans, they simply don't want to talk about this. And a number of things that they wanted to bring up before the midterm election, like banning abortions at 15 weeks at the federal level, that bill is nonexistent. You will not hear Republicans talking about that.
And it is also an issue already with a number of these Republican candidates who have announce for president and those who haven't, because they also aren't necessarily speaking about it. They're saying, you know, this is state's rights, but even that is really annoying those pro-life groups. And I think the tricky part for Republicans is you could take a position in the primary that might be a little bit more extreme. How is that going to fare for you in the general? And that is really a calculus that Republicans are struggling...
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ: Exactly. With Donald Trump, even, his...
(CROSSTALK)
ISGUR: You see a big difference...
RADDATZ: Yeah.
ISGUR: ... between Republican primary voters and Republican-leaning general election voters. There was a poll out from Gallup recently that said now 49 percent of Americans do not identify with either political party. As the political parties shrink, they get weaker, on the one hand. They have less control over who their standard-bearers are, which is dangerous to some extent. But also it means that concentration of Republican primary voters don't look like general election voters. It puts the Republican Party in an iffy position.
HEITKAMP: And Mike Pence has now told us what the theory of his case is, right? He now has said, "Look, Donald Trump is wrong on abortion. I am going to be the pro-life vote in the Republican primary."
He figures that there's going to be enough of that percentage of republican votes that is going to lead him to victory. But an additional kind of, fallout from this was Lisa Murkowski basically saying, "I was duped by this judge in Texas. I didn't get the right information."
I wonder what the reform is going to be on vetting these judges. Because the judge in Texas was way off, what he told that nominating committee he would do.
RADDATZ: But I wanted to talk about Donald Trump because Donald Trump, this week, his spokesman said he believes abortion should be left up to the states. The Susan B. Anthony list, an anti-abortion group, blasted that position as morally indefensible. And the group's president said, "We will oppose any presidential candidate who refuses to embrace at a minimum a 15-week national standard. Holding to the position that it is exclusively up to the states is an abdication of responsibility by anyone elected to federal office."
This is a tough -- a tough position for those candidates to be in, Terry.
MORAN: The logic of the Republican Party is a national ban on abortion, right? Because the ratchet in the primaries is that whoever is going to take a more pro-life, anti-abortion rights position is going to get more votes in those primaries because the base controls it. And the logic of the position is that there needs to be a national ban on abortion. That's what these judges in Texas are doing, that they can use the power of the federal judiciary to stop abortion nationwide. That is political disaster because most Americans have always been in the vast muddled middle on...
ISGUR: But when it comes to Donald Trump, it feels like 2015 all over again. Who's leading the party, the base voters, or Donald Trump leading the base voters? So I wouldn't be surprised, if he's the general election nominee, that Susan B. Anthony gets on board like everyone else.
HEITKAMP: But think of -- think of...
RADDATZ: And he certainly...
HEITKAMP: Think of what's happening in the cascade effect in state elections. You saw that in Wisconsin, where a liberal judge -- so now this issue cuts across the board and it has a huge effect on who's sitting in the state legislature, who has that governor's seat, who has the mayor's seat and who has the Supreme Court seat.
RADDATZ: And now let's talk about the president.
(LAUGHTER)
Let's talk about 2024. Marianna, we heard the White House dance around this announcement but they're whispering. It's going to be Tuesday. It's going to be pretty low-key, the way Biden announces. How do you -- how do you see that?
SOTOMAYOR: Yeah, you know, a couple of my colleagues have been reporting about the days leading up to this announcement. And it really has been a low-key affair, really meeting with his wife, a number of advisers, to put out a video, which seems to have been filmed out in Wilmington, Delaware. It's possible his headquarters will be there instead of Philadelphia. We obviously see the president going there a lot.
But they really want to keep the focus on what he is doing as president. They -- Democrats largely -- you couldn't even say this on the congressional side -- just want to have the Republicans duke it out in the primary, have Biden, kind of, be in the backdrop talking about his own achievements.
SOTOMAYOR: So it's likely that it's probably going to take that kind of tone.
RADDATZ: And, Terry, do you expect everyone to -- all Democrats to suddenly rally around the president?
MORAN: Well, I'll -- I'll will leave that to our Democratic former official here. My own sense is that most Americans don't want to vote for an 81-year-old man for president. Neither do they really want to vote for a 77-year-old man for president. They'd like -- they'd like to go to the next generation. And I think part of their modesty is the -- is the Biden White House operation aware that people are uneasy with his age.
RADDATZ: And -- and to that point, Heidi, the Wall Street Journal editorial board had a very strong statement about it, saying "The public understands what Mr. Biden apparently won't admit, that electing an octogenarian in obvious decline for another four years could be a historic mistake. It's impossible to know Mr. Biden's real physical and mental state because the White House goes to great lengths to hide it, but his decline is clear to anyone who isn't willfully blind."
HEITKAMP: Absolutely, and -- and the -- the real issue here is when you don't compare Biden to, you know, kind of, the perfect candidate; you compare him to who the likely nominee is. And I think that there is a comfort level as we move into this that Donald Trump probably will be the nominee. This will be a repeat of 2020. Biden has a lot of things to run on. He's done a lot of good policy things that both progressives and moderate Republicans like. And so I think there isn't going to be a lot of opposition within the Democratic Party. But I also think that the attention that we're going to see Democrats expose is these false lines among the Republicans.
So, I mean, you know, there is going to be this question, right? And rightfully so. But I think, when you look at what the administration has in fact accomplished in the last four years, it's pretty impressive. It's a pretty impressive record. And so let's see how this plays out.
RADDATZ: And, Sarah, let's move on to the GOP side. This wasn't the greatest week for Ron DeSantis, comes to D.C., a rare appearance, only to find that about half of the Republicans in Florida -- who are from Florida, in Congress, are going for Donald Trump.
ISGUR: Yeah, I mean, look, I think that Joe Biden's team is making a smart decision in the sense that they want a replay of 2020, where he didn't really do much, say much, keep all the focus on Donald Trump and make it a referendum on Donald Trump. That worked really well for them last time.
I have to say, where I think they're making a mistake is assuming that Donald Trump is the weaker Republican candidate. It feels very Hillary Clinton, you know, trying to, sort of, egg on, you know, "This is our chosen candidate" Democrats, of course, have played in many Republican primaries so far in the last few years, to try to pick their candidates. It is not clear to me at all that Donald Trump would be the weaker candidate against Joe Biden.
As far as Ron DeSantis is concerned, I think Republicans, and this is true for Tim Scott and Nikki Haley and all of these guys, Donald Trump changed the scoring in Republican primaries. It's like we got rid of the three-pointer, and yet here are all these Republicans sitting at the three-point line making these difficult shots...
(LAUGHTER)
... and Donald Trump just says the thing. It's a dunking contest right now. Start dunking. Don't say you want a drama-free president, and then everyone, you know, sitting on this roundtable is, like, "Ooh, that was an attack on Donald Trump." No, say "Donald Trump is a drama queen" -- like, you need to actually bring it to Donald Trump if you want to beat him.
RADDATZ: And, to that point, Marianna...
(LAUGHTER)
... we have about one minute left. Chris Christie, this week -- Chris Christie is of course an ABC News contributor, often sits on this roundtable, but toying with a presidential run. He was at a New England college town hall this week and basically said "Donald Trump has failed us." Do you think that will resonate?
SOTOMAYOR: I mean, we have seen so many attacks against Trump, and it really hasn't. It seems like Christie's position is to just go in and constantly be saying these things. Maybe that could resonate in early states to some voters. But, at the end of the day, in this kind of primary climate where we've seen Trump just, again and again and again, be underestimated and come out on top, I don't know.
RADDATZ: And let me just say it is very early. It is still April...
SOTOMAYOR: Yeah.
RADDATZ: ... in [2023]. We have a very long time to go.
But thank you all for joining us. We're going to be talking about this for a very long time.
Coming up, as tensions rise between China and Taiwan, we were on Capitol Hill for a late-night war game. It was bipartisanship at work, next.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, (D) 46TH UNITED STATES PRESIDENT: Taiwan makes their own judgments about their independence. We are not moving, we are not encouraging their being independent. We are not -- that's their decision.
SCOTT PELLEY, CORRESPONDENT AND ANCHOR, CBS NEWS: But would U.S. forces defend the island?
BIDEN: Yes, if in fact, there was an unprecedented attack.
PELLEY: So unlike Ukraine, to be clear, sir, U.S. forces -- U.S. men and women would defend Taiwan in the event of a Chinese invasion?
BIDEN: Yes.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: President Biden last fall saying for the first time that if China invades Taiwan, the U.S. would send troops to defend it. It is an invasion many experts predict could happen in this decade. We got a fascinating inside look this week at how members on the House China Committee are gaming out war scenarios.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ (voice-over): In the sky, on the sea, China staging combat exercises, a show of force, a warning that a potential blockade of Taiwan could be coming. The Chinese army even releasing this simulation of how they detect the nearby island, a self-governed democracy that China claims as its own territory. But on Capitol Hill this week, lawmakers staged their own simulation.
REP. MICHAEL GALLAGHER, (R-WI) CHAIR, HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON CHINA: Tonight is not about a desire for war. It is certainly not about playing frivolous games.
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, (D-IL) RANKING MEMBER, CHAIR, HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON CHINA: It is about prevent war games.
RADDATZ (voice-over): China Committee Chairman Mike Gallagher and Ranking Member Raja Krishnamoorthi set up the exercise with the Center for a New American Security.
STACIE PETTYJOHN, SENIOR FELLOW AND DIRECTOR OF THE DEFENSE PROGRAM, CENTER FOR A NEW AMERICAN SECURITY: This game is going to be a Chinese invasion of Taiwan set in 2027.
GALLAGHER: What exactly do we know right now about their mobilization effort?
RADDATZ (voice-over): Members from both sides of the aisle coming together, politics set aside. There's Virginia Republican Robert Wittman and Massachusetts Democrat Jake Auchincloss, the members taking on the role of advisers to the president.
REP. ANDRE CARSON, (D) INDIANA: What if we have we communicated (ph) to ex-pats and students from China right now (ph)?
PETTYJOHN: This is part of what you get to decide.
RADDATZ (voice-over): That is Stacie Pettyjohn, a senior fellow from CNAS, acting as the Game Master.
GALLAGHER: The Chairman of the Joint Chiefs can't pick up the phone and talk to his PLA counterpart.
PETTYJOHN: Correct. Unfortunately, General Holmes is cut off.
RADDATZ (voice-over): Retired General Mike Holmes is playing the role of Chairman of the Joint Chiefs, laying out to members what military options there are.
MIKE HOLMES, RETIRED GENERAL AND CHAIRMAN OF THE JOINT CHIEFS: The biggest benefit from fighting from a distance is you preserve and protect your forces.
RADDATZ (voice-over): But diplomatic and economic options are on the table as well.
REP. ASHLEY HINSON, (R) IOWA: Our allies agreed to take part in economic activities with us as a precursor to this conversation.
REP. RAJA KRISHNAMOORTHI, (D-IL) RANKING MEMBER, CHAIR, HOUSE SELECT COMMITTEE ON CHINA: Has there been any activity at the United Nations yet?
RADDATZ (voice-over): After debating how the U.S. should react, lawmakers took a vote, announcing their move.
GALLAGHER: We will be standing with our friends in Taiwan. We have forces in the region that are pre-positioned. We are surging forces in the region. We are also prepared to impose maximum economic pressure in the event of an invasion, including sanctions against most major Chinese banks including kicking China of the SWIFT system.
RADDATZ (voice-over): But wait a minute, Chinese authorities played by CNAS staffers quickly counter surging troops forcing a communications blackout in Taiwan and banning exports of electronic goods to the U.S.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE, CNAS STAFF: So that means we are going after companies like Apple, Dell, HP. You want a new iPhone? Guess what, you are not going to get it.
RADDATZ (voice-over): Lots of questions, lots of lessons.
RADDATZ: It was remarkable to see all of you there working together. It is not a view we often get. We see you in hearings. We see you on TV, but this was a group that was really working together.
GALLAGHER: We are trying to and again, ultimately, we are hoping to generate creative ideas that can pass this Congress for what we can do to enhance deterrence. So, our hope is by doing different, we generate more member engagement and more member ideas.
RADDATZ: There's obviously lessons learned from Ukraine. One of them was, the U.S. Intelligence certainly believed Russia would be moving in.
GALLAGHER: Yeah.
RADDATZ: But really off the mark in terms of the power of Russia and the power of the troops. Do you trust the intelligence on this one, Congressman?
KRISHNAMOORTHI: I trust the intelligence community and their assessment right now. I think you have to prepare for the worst and hope for the best. I think that is just the way we have to approach this scenario.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
RADDATZ: And that is what they are doing. Our thanks to the House China Committee. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
RADDATZ: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out World News Tonight, and have a great day
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