'This Week' Transcript 5-5-24: Sen. Tom Cotton, NYC Mayor Eric Adams & FTC Chair Lina Khan
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, May 5, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
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ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.
JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Dead heat.
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let's get out and work together and get this done.
DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will make America great again.
KARL: Six months to Election Day. Our new poll shows a tight race for the White House, as Democrats dig in on abortion.
KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is the new reality under a Trump abortion ban.
KARL: And Trump continues to campaign from the courtroom.
TRUMP: Well, all of this is greatly affecting our country and very negatively.
KARL: This morning, Rick Klein breaks down the new numbers. Senator Tom Cotton joins us live. And our powerhouse roundtable weighs in.
Campus clashes. Student protests erupt over Israel's war in Gaza.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We will not stop fighting. This is only the beginning.
KARL: Police move in, more than 2,000 arrested, many of them not students, as universities crack down.
BIDEN: There’s the right to protest, but not the right to cause chaos.
REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We have got to get control of these campuses, end of story.
KARL: The latest from New York City Mayor Eric Adams.
And –
I mean you've really shaken this place up. You are the most activist chair in this organization that we’ve had in the longest time, if not ever. Is that fair to say?
From tech titans to big business, Federal Trade Commission Chair Lina Khan on her aggressive approach to regulating America's largest companies.
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ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.
KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.
For as long as I've covered politics, politicians have said this will be the most important election of our lifetimes. They said that no matter how high or low the stakes actually were. Election Day 2024 is exactly six months from today, and this time the divisions in our country are so vast and the choice so stark there's little doubt this really is the most important election of our time. No more crying wolf. This is it.
We have some news this morning on the state of the race. Rick Klein is here with the new ABC News/IPSOS poll. As you look at the numbers, look past the top line. It shows the race essentially tied.
But that's not what's most important. If we have learned anything, it's that polls this far out are of limited value in predicting who will win. Our new poll does something else, giving us a stark view of what's on voters' minds and where the campaign is going.
Here's what stands out. Trump has a big double-digit advantage on most of the issues that Americans say are most important to them, especially the economy, crime, and the situation at the border. Even on the issue of who will best protect democracy, Biden and Trump are tied. But President Biden has a big, double-digit lead over Trump on the issue of character. He is viewed as more honest and trustworthy. And this week Trump gave voters a lot to consider about both character and respect for democracy. In a lengthy interview with "Time" magazine, the man who still refuses to accept the results of the last election refused to say whether he would accept the result of this one.
And the man who saw his supporters attack the Capitol three years ago said there would not be violence this time, if he wins, adding, quote, “and if we don't win, you know, it depends. It always depends on the fairness of an election.”
To be clear, Trump says no violence if he wins. All bets are off if he loses.
And you may have missed this. Trump is now calling for the arrest of special counsel Jack Smith. He did this in a post on social media shortly before 11:00 p.m. Friday night.
In a moment I'll be joined here in the studio by Senator Tom Cotton, a Republican who did accept the results of the last election and who has been mentioned as a possible Trump running mate this time around.
But we begin with ABC News political director Rick Klein with the breakdown of our new poll.
Well, Rick, it looks incredibly close, and third-party candidates represent an x-factor here.
RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, Jon, it is such a close race. You can see in our poll, Donald Trump has a very slight edge over Joe Biden among all adults. But if you hone in just on registered voters or likely voters, you actually get the opposite result, and a few-point edge for Joe Biden.
But, yes, if you add in third-party candidates, 12 percent of adults overall say they’d vote for Robert F. Kennedy Jr. if he is an option.
Now, if he’s not an option, and, remember, he’s not on the ballot everywhere, we’re seeing an interesting split develop among Kennedy supporters. Thirty-seven percent of Kennedy supporters say they’d vote for Trump if Kennedy isn’t on the ballot, 24 percent say Joe Biden. So, it’s not clear what the actual impact will be, but at least initially it looks like third party candidates like Kennedy are hurting Trump a bit more than Biden.
KARL: So, Rick, we see that Trump has a big advantage on many of the key issues, but a lot of voters aren't thrilled obviously with either candidate.
KLEIN: Yes, that’s exactly right. We're starting to see some daylight open up on the issues that are most salient to voters in polls. Immigration, economy, crime and public safety, these are all Trump areas. He's got a significant advantage in trust in handling these issues. The only areas where Biden has an advantage, health care and protecting abortion rights. But you’re right, about one in five voters overall, on just about all of these issues, say they actually don't trust either of the major candidates for president in – to handle them.
KARL: And Biden seems to be struggling with key demographic groups that he would need to win and win big if he stands a chance of being re-elected.
KLEIN: Jon, there is significant softness in the support for Joe Biden among core Democrats. In this poll, he's carrying black voters by 61 points. Well, that sounds like a lot, but he carried them by 84 points back in 2020. Latino voters, a very slight Biden edge in this poll, but it was a 21-point advantage in the exit polls back in 2020. And among younger voters, under 30, we’re actually seeing Trump with a slight edge. That was a big win for Biden last time around.
It's particularly stark to see that difference among voters of color. Black voters under age 50, far less likely in this poll to say they're supporting Joe Biden than older black voters.
KARL: Bottom line, Rick, this is shaping up as an election between two deeply unpopular men.
KLEIN: Yes, these are dismal numbers for both major party nominees. Joe Biden viewed favorably by only 40 percent of the country. Thirty-three percent of the country only. That’s a third of people overall have a favorable impression of Donald Trump. And here's a really interesting nugget as we look to see what the potential things could happen to change the course of this race. Among Trump supporters, 20 percent – that's one in five – say they would reconsider or no longer support Trump at all if he's convicted of a crime in that New York City hush money case. That's a huge, huge chunk in an election that could be as close as this one.
KARL: All right, Rick, thank you.
One more note, if you’re an undecided voter in the 2024 election, we want to hear from you. Just scan the QR code on your screen right now for more information on how you can make your voice heard in this election.
All right, I'm joined now in studio by Republican Senator Tom Cotton.
So, Senator Cotton, before we get to the campus situation and 2024, I want to ask you about Ukraine. You have been a prominent and consistent supporter for U.S. support for Ukraine against Russia, but right now we are seeing a situation in the House where Speaker of the House Johnson is facing an effort to throw him out as speaker because he made it possible for the House to pass that bill.
SEN. TOM COTTON, (R) ARKANSAS & (R) ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE MEMBER: Well, first off, I want to say, I think Speaker Johnson is doing an outstanding job. I agree with President Trump on that. I agree that we need to have unity in our party right now as we face off against Joe Biden and the Democrats.
And the legislation in the House passed, and that we passed after the House, was not just about Ukraine. It was also supporting Israel and supporting Taiwan and taking actions like making sure TikTok has to – or TikTok’s parent company has to divest, new sanctions on Russia, the ability to take Russian assets to support the Ukraine war effort in the future. So, it was a vital piece of national security legislation.
A large majority of Republicans supported it, and I think you're going to see the large majority of Republicans back Speaker Johnson next week as well.
KARL: But actually in the House a majority of Republicans voted against it and –
COTTON: Well, about two-thirds of House Republicans said that they wanted to support Ukraine in one way or another, even if they didn't support that specific piece of legislation. It was a much smaller majority that voted to cut off aid entirely. So, Speaker Johnson has about two-thirds of his entire conference behind him on that specific issue and almost all of them behind him on the question of Israel or Taiwan, for instance. Unlike the Democrats, who are deeply divided about Israel's war of survival against Hamas in Gaza.
KARL: And in the Senate, it was a majority – solid majority of – that supported this, but 15 Republican senators voted no. And I was struck by what Senator Mike Lee, your Republican colleague in the Senate, said about Ukraine funding, Taiwan, Israel, all – that whole package. He said it was unadulterated capitulation to vote for that bill, and that it was a bill that was a warmonger wish list. A warmonger wish list pushed through by Speaker Johnson.
I mean are – are we seeing a return, at least in some quarters, to kind of an isolationist Republican Party?
COTTON: No, I think what you see among a lot of Republicans is that they have legitimate and reasonable concerns about our defense industrial base's ability to support our own military, much less other countries' wars.
I share those concerns, and I think the way to do that is to invest more in that industrial base. That's largely a practical difference about circumstances here and our defense industrial base.
The Democrats, though, they have deep philosophical divisions on Israel. That's why you see all these little Gazas out there on campuses where you have people chanting vile antisemitic rhetoric. That is not something that’s going to go away.
KARL: Well, let me ask you about that. We saw President Biden come out. I mean, it was -- I’m sure you think it was too late, but he did come out and he clearly condemned the violence.
He's condemned the antisemitism. I assume you agree with what he did even if it was too late in your view?
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COTTON: So, no. I think you're mischaracterizing what he did.
Yeah, it was absolutely too late. It was two weeks after these pro-Hamas fanatics had taken over a lot of campuses, and set up these little Gazas.
Second, he didn't specifically speak to what they're saying and what they're doing. They're chanting final solution. They're telling Jews to go back to where they came from. They're spray-painting buildings with vile, antisemitic hate.
He said, well, we shouldn't have antisemitism or hate speech in the abstract or Islamophobia.
Where are the encampments, Jon, on campuses spreading Islamophobia? Why is Joe Biden so equivocal? Why does he have to draw moral equivalence between thousands of students who are setting up these little Gazas all across America --
KARL: Can I -- can I ask you --
COTTON: -- engaged in hate speech -- engaged in hate speech against Jews, assaulting Jews, disobeying the law, and some fictional encampment that’s spreading Islamophobia.
KARL: Can I ask you? You just three or four times now just used the phrase “little Gazas”. What do you mean by that?
COTTON: Well, they call themselves the Gaza encamp -- solidarity encampment. They’re little. They’re little Gazas.
KARL: I mean, are you -- it seems like you're mocking the situation in Gaza.
COTTON: Well, a lot of -- a lot of people do deserve -- these people do deserve to be mocked.
KARL: Well, no, no, Gaza. I’m talking about Gaza --
COTTON: No, on college --
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KARL: We had -- the World Food Programme has just now said that there is an outright famine in parts of Gaza. Tens of thousands of people have died. You're using this phrase little Gazas --
COTTON: Which is 100 percent the fault of Hamas, just like every civilian casualty in Gaza is 100 percent the fault of Hamas.
Yet Joe Biden, for seven months, has leaned on Israel, has pressured Benjamin Netanyahu, has told him to stand down when they get attacked by Iran, has said they can't go into the last holdout where Hamas has its final terrorist battalions.
But, no, these students on campuses, they deserved our contempt. They also deserved our mockery. I mean, they're out there in their N95 masks in open air, with their -- with their gluten allergies, demanding that Uber Eats gets delivered to them.
They should not have been allowed to fester on campus for two weeks when these liberal administrators and liberal politicians refused to send in the police to clear them out the very first day they set up their tents.
KARL: I mean, look, it's clear there's been vile stuff going on in some of these protests. It’s also clear there are some people exercising their right to protest.
COTTON: Well, you can protest --
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KARL: I assume we can agree that that’s okay.
COTTON: You can protest all you want. If you want to make a fool of yourself and support a terrorist group, you can do that.
Now, if you’re a foreigner, you can't. And where -- where's Joe Biden's administration demanding that universities turn over the names of any foreign students here on a visa, revoking those visas and deporting them? That's something that Joe Biden can do today.
But you are not allowed to violate campus rules and policies and break the law. Where were the liberal administrators and liberal politicians sending in the police on the very first day? We should not have tolerated this for a moment.
I mean, you have Jewish students who’ve been assaulted on campus. Jewish students have been told, it's not safe for you to come, go back home.
Just blocks from here, just blocks from here, Jon, you have one of the biggest little Gazas left at George Washington University. Yesterday, they called for a guillotine, for the beheading of university administrators.
KARL: So, I mean --
COTTON: Is that -- is that non-violent? They defaced --
KARL: No, I mean, I said there's no doubt there's plenty of vile stuff -- lots of vile things going on. There’s no doubt there's also some people legitimately protesting Israeli policy.
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COTTON: What’s underneath this all, what’s underneath it, it is antisemitic and anti-Israeli.
KARL: So, let me --
COTTON: But what's underneath it all, Jon -- what's underneath it all is a hatred for this country. That's why you find fliers once they get -- once they get cleared out that says “death to America”.
And we’re just blocks from where we sit right now, these fanatics have defaced a statue of George Washington. They spray-painted it, calling him a genocidal warmonger. They put a terrorist headdress -- they put a terrorist headdress on George Washington.
KARL: That's -- that -- that’s indefensible. But let me move on --
COTTON: But that’s the kind of thing that Joe Biden and Democrats are tolerating.
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KARL: You made your views abundantly clear, but let -- let me move on to 2024. You’ve been mentioned as a possible Trump running mate. Is that -- is that talk real?
COTTON: Well, first off, Jon, like, what we're talking about is 2024.
KARL: OK.
COTTON: The reason why Donald Trump -- one of the many reasons why Donald Trump is going to win this election is you've got Democratic protesters out there putting a terrorist headdress on a statue of George Washington.
KARL: I mean, I don't know who is a Democrat or not. A lot of people are very upset with Joe Biden.
COTTON: Meanwhile, you have --
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KARL: But about you, are you -- are you -- is that real, this talk of you as a running mate?
COTTON: You have patriots like these frat boys at UNC and around the country who are defending the American flag and Joe -- and Joe Biden refused for two weeks to come out and denounce it. That’s -- that is the 2024 election.
Now, as far as your question was concerned, I know that you and everyone else loves to speculate in this parlor game about who’s going to be vice president, who’s going to be in the cabinet. I don’t think it’s particularly helpful to Donald Trump. I don’t think that it’s good to be out there campaigning and putting yourself forward for the job.
KARL: Would you serve as his running mate if asked?
COTTON: But, Jon – Jon, it’s not helpful.
KARL: OK.
COTTON: What Donald Trump is focused on is winning this election. What I'm focused on is helping him win and making sure Republicans win the Congress. When he's ready to make his decision about vice president, he will. Afterwards, the election he’ll – he'll make his decision about the cabinet. Until then, anyone out campaigning for the job or pushing for the job is not helpful to what we should all be focused on, which is winning the election.
KARL: You remember what happened to the last vice president, Mike Pence. Did he – did Pence do the right thing by not doing what Trump asked him to do on January 6th?
COTTON: Look, I think the Constitution was clear that neither the Congress nor the vice president had the ability to reject those electors. It's also clear that it wasn't going to work because Nancy Pelosi controlled the House.
KARL: So, let me ask, you were very clear and unequivocal in what you said on January 6th, and in the aftermath. I want to pull up a quote of a specific line you said on that day. “It's past time for the president to accept the results of the election, quit misleading the American people, and repudiate mob violence.”
More than three years later, Trump has still not accepted the results. He is still misleading the American people.
COTTON: Jon, he – Jon, he did it – he did it that very day. He put out videos and he put out statements on social media telling those rioters to stand down. Just like he had said in a speech that day, to protest peace – to protest peacefully.
KARL: No, no, you said it’s past time for the president to accept the results. He still –
COTTON: To protest peacefully, Jon.
KARL: He still hasn't accepted the result of the election. I mean –
COTTON: Jon, he says, and I agree, that the election was not fair, and it was rigged in many ways with Democratic states and cities changing election law and election practices up to the last minute, with the media, to include your network, and 51 Democratic intelligence operatives saying the Hunter Biden laptop was Russian disinformation and social media then censoring all those things. Those were all deeply unfair.
Now, I – now, I –
KARL: I mean he was talking about rigged voting machines and everything else, you know –
COTTON: No, I – no, I never – I never –
KARL: Yes.
COTTON: And Donald Trump has not – like, we never said, like, you know, I don’t know, crazy conspiracies about the Venezuela rigging the voting machines.
KARL: Yes.
COTTON: But, look –
KARL: Just this one – one last thing in this. He's also calling the people that attacked the Capitol hostages. And he's suggesting that he would – may pardon all of them. I mean, I assume you don't agree with that.
COTTON: He said – he said that he would consider pardons. And some of them probably –
KARL: And he called them hostages.
COTTON: Some of them probably deserve – Jon, some of them have been held in pre-trial detention longer than the crimes for which they are –
KARL: So, you agree, these are hostages?
COTTON: Some of them have been held in pre-trial detention longer than the sentences for the crimes with which they are charged.
Now, anyone who assaulted a police officer or damaged public property, that’s different. For people who were wondered into the Capitol that they thought was open or was on the grounds, and where – where is the charges –
KARL: I mean it was like wandering. This wasn’t a tourist visit.
COTTON: Where – where is all –
KARL: I mean you – you haven't said this –
COTTON: Where is all the – no, I've said for a long time that the DOJ is using investigative techniques and tactics that they didn't use, for instance, when you had a left-wing street militia threatening to assassinate Supreme Court justices. They’re not using to clear out this little –
KARL: But for the record, you're not in favor for pardoning people that attacked police officers or broke into the Capitol Building?
COTTON: No, people who were involved in that riot, who assaulted police officers, or who defaced and damaged public property should face the legal consequences, but we shouldn't be using the kind of investment –
KARL: Isn’t it – isn’t it odd that the Republican nominee doesn't – or doesn’t agree with that?
COTTON: No, he’s said – that – he does agree with that, Jon. What – what shouldn't be used is every grandma who had a red MAGA hat that was within a country mile of the Capitol on January 6th shouldn't be sitting in pre-trial detention for a longer time than the crimes for which they might face a sentence.
KARL: All right, Senator Cotton, thank you very much for joining us here this morning.
COTTON: Thank you.
KARL: Up next, will Columbia and other schools in New York be able to hold in-person graduation ceremonies? I'll speak with New York City Mayor Eric Adams.
We’re back in two minutes.
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PRESIDENT JOSEPH R. BIDEN, JR.: So let me be clear. Peaceful protest in America. Violent protest is not protected. Peaceful protest is. Dissent is essential to democracy, but dissent must never lead to disorder or to denying the rights of others so students can finish a semester and their college education.
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KARL: That's President Biden addressing the turmoil on college campuses across the nation. The growing tension over pro-Palestinian activism, including some vile displays of Antisemitism, vandalism and intimidation, led to police intervention at numerous universities.
I'll speak with New York City Mayor Eric Adams about that. But first, the very latest on the campus unrest from Stephanie Ramos.
STEPHANIE RAMOS, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Pro-Palestinian protests on college campuses stretching to nearly every corner of the country this week.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
PROTESTERS: Let's go! Bye-bye...
RAMOS: Protesters briefly interrupting the University of Michigan's commencement ceremony yesterday, as dozens of police officers also cleared protesters at the University of Virginia. Nationwide, more than 2,400 people arrested, as some protests descended into chaos.
At Portland State University...
UNIDENTIFIED POLICE OFFICER: We're the police. leave the building now. Force will be used against you.
RAMOS: Police cleared an encampment that was twice established inside the university's library. At UCLA, an intense scene after the university called in city police. More than 200 arrested there, as officers forced protesters out of an encampment. Some defiant, telling our KABC the protests aren't over.
ILLAHE, UCLA STUDENT PROTESTER: We're not done. We're not done. We're not going to leave this at that. We're not going to let people forget what happened.
RAMOS: And in New York City, police raiding this academic building at Columbia University that protesters broke into and took over, Hamilton Hall, known for student takeovers over the last several decades.
Officials claimed the protests there and at nearby City College had been co-opted by outside agitators saying nearly half of the 282 people arrested were not affiliated with the schools. Columbia's president defended the decision to call in the police to clear that building.
MINOUCHE SHAFIK, COLUMBIA UNIVERSITY PRESIDENT: It was a violent act that put our students at risk, as well as putting the protesters at risk.
RAMOS: Many protesters are calling on universities to divest from companies that do business with Israel. The campus turmoil sparked by the war in Gaza now front and center for the 2024 campaign. Former President Trump applauded steps taken by the NYPD at Columbia.
FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP: The police came in; in exactly two hours, everything was over. It was a beautiful thing to watch, New York's finest.
(APPLAUSE)
RAMOS: President Biden speaking on the issue Thursday.
BIDEN: Vandalism, trespassing, breaking windows, shutting down campuses, forcing the cancellation of classes and graduations, none of this is a peaceful protest.
RAMOS: Biden also condemning antisemitism and threats of violence against Jewish students.
BIDEN: There is no place for hate speech or violence of any kind, whether it's antisemitism, islamophobia or discrimination against Arab-Americans or Palestinian-Americans. It's simply wrong.
RAMOS: For "This Week," Stephanie Ramos, ABC News New York.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: All right, thank you, Stephanie.
New York City Mayor Eric Adams joins us now.
Mayor Adams, as I understand it now, two of the city's universities have now asked -- have authorized the NYPD to come in and help clear encampments on their campuses. We see NYU and The New School. What is the very latest in New York right now?
MAYOR ERIC ADAMS, (D) NEW YORK CITY: And -- and several of our colleges asked the same. And we want to ensure we protect democracy and the right to protest, but we have an obligation that when those protests reach the point of violence as the president stated, we have to ensure that we use a minimum amount of force to terminate what is perceived to be a threat not only by our intelligence, but also the school and college officials.
KARL: And you had said that you had been saying for days, if not weeks, that there were outside agitators that were, you know, that were doing this stuff or provoking a lot of the stuff we’ve seen on the campuses. So -- particularly at Columbia -- did -- should the NYPD have gone in earlier in your view? Was that the suggestion?
ADAMS: That determination, we communicated with the college officials for several days leading up to the New York City Police Department action. And we knew we had to get permission unless there's imminent threat to life or severe threat to property. And once the school's made the determination, we shared the information that we had. Our intelligence division looked at it, and it was concerning to me.
But we were not going to overstep our legal authority and right to do so.
KARL: I want to read you something that New York Congressman Jamaal Bowman wrote earlier this week about the NYPD's presence on campuses Tuesday night. He wrote: The militarization of college campuses, extensive police presence, and arrest of hundreds of students are in direct opposition to the role of education as a cornerstone of our democracy.
What do you say to that, not just Congressman Bowman, but others who say this stuff has gone too far? I mean, the reaction has gone too far?
ADAMS: And -- and again, that’s -- that's the beauty of America. One has the right to have his or her opinion, and I respect that. I protested as a young man for apartheid and other issues to dismantle apartheid. And so, I respect that. He has position.
And I have an obligation and responsibility to ensure the city is safe; policing (ph) the city during 9/11. And there was one of the fliers that was found inside the protests, and if you look closely, it says “Death to America”.
This has left a point of advocating for a particular item, and as I say over and over again, there's a real attempt to radicalize our young people, and when you look at some of the information and some of the people who were there, we need to be clear that we cannot take this lightly.
And when I use the term of “outside agitators”, anyone can protest in the city, but when you are on college grounds and you do not attend that college, you are an outsider, and then when you train people to do disruptive things, you are an agitator. So I’m not trying to be politically correct. I’m trying to be correct for the city of New York as we make sure this continues to be safe.
KARL: All right. And, bottom line, Mayor, there are several graduations scheduled in New York City over the rest of this month. Are they going to be able to happen in person and peacefully?
ADAMS: I believe they should. It's a wonderful experience to graduate from an institution, and I don't think we should allow anything to get in our normal way of life. We will do our job.
And if the institution decides to graduate their students and celebrate a beautiful experience for their families, we will make sure it's done in a peaceful manner.
KARL: All right. Mayor Eric Adams of New York City, thank you very much for joining us on "This Week".
Up next, what diehard pro-Trump Republican was a no-show at Mar-a-Lago this weekend? The powerhouse round table is next. We'll be right back.
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KARL: I'm joined now by the Powerhouse Roundtable. We have NPR White House Correspondent Asma Khalid, The View Co-Host Alyssa Farah Griffin, Democratic Congresswoman Jasmine Crockett of Texas in her debut here on this week, Washington Post Columnist David Ignatius, author of the new book "Phantom Orbit: A Thriller."
So David, let me talk to you. I understand you just spoke with a very senior figure on the Biden campaign. What is their level of actual concern about this race? I mean, we hear happy talk publicly, but are there -- are they concerned?
DAVID IGNATIUS, WASHINGTON POST COLUMNIST & AUTHOR, 'PHANTOM ORBIT': So obviously, they're concerned. This is a close race. This poll, like most others, shows it neck and neck, a little lead for Trump. So, how do they to get out of this situation into something better? And I think their simple answer would be they need this to become -- this race to become a referendum on Donald Trump. They need to remind people what Donald Trump was like as president.
I mean, you know, Biden’s running as an incumbent. People never like an incumbent. But there’s a way in which – in which Trump is also an incumbent, has a record, so they want to focus on that more.
I think the thing they would point to in these poll numbers that you’re just releasing are the likeability figures for Biden. That’s the one area where he has a real advantage. So, if they would –
KARL: What's amazing about that is, he has an advantage, but he's not that likable either. I mean they're both very low. It's just that – it’s just that Trump is that much lower.
IGNATIUS: (INAUDIBLE) very low. He's that much lower.
I’d say one more thing that I kept hearing from Biden's campaign people. They feel that the more he's out on the road – they’d like to get him out of this trial because when he's in the – in the trial, maybe he's slumping and scowling, you know –
KARL: Yes.
IGNATIUS: But – he's not out doing things that make news that make people angry and upset, like the "Time" magazine interview. So, again, there's this feeling that as the race progresses, as people see more of Trump, they'll remember what his presidency was like, and the referendum on Trump, which is what the Biden people want this to be, will begin to push things their way.
KARL: Congresswoman, what's your sense of this?
REP. JASMINE CROCKETT, (D) TEXAS: Listen, here’s the deal. There are those that are glamorizing the Trump years. And they were anything but glamorous. But I think that the important poll number that we saw was on health care, and specifically on repro. And I think what people are forgetting is that there's so much new energy because of the actions of the Supreme Court.
Right now, everybody wants the president to fix every single thing in their lives, but the president can't fix every single thing. But one thing that he can work on that could become better or worse depending on who comes off the court is the court itself. And the court is the one that’s attacking our freedoms. And I think if we lean in and we talk about the fact that the president is the one that gets a Supreme Court pick, we know that these three justices that Donald Trump got to pick under his presidency, they are the ones that took away repro access. They are the ones that are attacking diversity, equity, and inclusion, affirmative action. They are the ones that are saying, you know what, Biden wants to help you on your student loans, but we refuse to allow him to give you the help that he wants to give you.
KARL: And yet, Asma, what we're seeing is that I think the biggest challenge Biden seems to be facing is enthusiasm among those core groups.
ASMA KHALID, NPR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yes, no, that’s very true. I mean I'm headed to Georgia this coming week, and in major part what I want to do is look at the so-called big-tent coalition that helped Biden win a state by Georgia. Very tight margins, 11,000 votes. What I've already heard in so many of my interviews with people is a lackluster sense of enthusiasm, whether it's black voters, whether it’s – you’d call them sort of like disaffected Republicans. There's a whole bunch of things that went right for Biden, I would argue, in 2020. It was unity and opposition to Donald Trump.
To make this a referendum, sure, is what the Biden campaign wants, but it’s really challenging because many voters are looking at this election as a referendum on Trump. You know, I was just up in Pennsylvania. Nonstop I heard about the economy and people don't feel great.
KARL: Representative – on Biden. On Biden, yes.
KHALID: Yes, yes, exactly, on Biden. I'm sorry, a referendum on Biden. And so people don't feel great about the economy now. This nostalgia for the Trump years is something that – I would say about the – the economy nostalgia I heard from Democrats even, which was really shocking to me, lay Democrats, remembering how good they thought their 401k was, they would say in the next breath, you know, they’re not going to vote for Trump for a variety of reasons.
KARL: Yes.
KHALID: But that’s what Joe Biden is up against, is –
KARL: I mean it’s a bit of a trick for an incumbent president to be making the election a referendum on his opponent.
ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, THE VIEW CO-HOST & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Right, but –
KARL: I mean –
GRIFFIN: These ABC poll numbers are actually some of the better ones for Joe Biden.
KARL: Yes.
GRIFFIN: If you look at kind of the aggregate swing state polls, Donald Trump has beat him outside of the margin of error pretty consistently. And we know our elections tend to be decided by half a million voters in a number of swing states. And I – I would caution that we might be running into a bit of a perfect storm for Donald Trump right now. And what I mean by that is to the point you made, when he's in a courtroom and he's not on the campaign trail saying, immigrants poison the blood of America, saying outrageous, scary things, talking about detention centers for undocumented migrants in this country, people kind of forget about the crazy.
This huge interview that he gave with "Time" magazine was completely eclipsed by the news cycle. Then add into that these – add into that these protests we see on college campuses. He risked losing support from the progressive left who are calling him genocide Joe. I don't know how you convince them in six months to come around and vote for you. But then on the right, some of these call him Nikki Haley soft swing voters, who are long order voters. And they’re like, if I feel like my kid isn't safe on a college campus, they might be able to hold their nose and vote for Joe – and vote for Donald Trump.
KARL: And, Congresswoman, isn’t that – I mean clearly the Republicans are trying to exploit what they’re seeing happening on the college campuses.
CROCKETT: Absolutely.
KARL: I mean you heard – you heard Tom Cotton.
CROCKETT: Oh, yes.
KARL: I mean they would like to make this wall-to-wall coverage.
CROCKETT: Yes.
KARL: So, how do you – how do you deal with that?
CROCKETT: You know what’s really interesting is that, yes, I did hear Tom Cotton. My question is, are young people that are disaffected by the president listening to the Tom Cottons of the world? Are they listening and hearing that Republicans are calling Palestinians Hamas and they’re calling them terrorists?
At least the Democrats are trying to do our best to, kind of, work through this. But the Democrats are the only ones that are being protested, not recognizing that some of these people are absolutely so much worse. Calling these places Little Gaza, telling people that they don't have the right to the Constitution and their First Amendment rights, that is problematic.
KARL: How much -- how much do you think Biden is -- is being hurt, though, by discontent, especially among the young voters, with America's policy towards Israel?
CROCKETT: I don't know that he's being hurt a ton. He's obviously being hurt. But when I look at the polling, supposedly the polling says that this actually ranks pretty low for young people. But it's that enthusiasm. The enthusiasm is what we're missing.
But I also want to remind people that Democrats weren't enthused by Biden before. Remember, Biden was losing before he was winning, before we saw South Carolina. And even once he got to South Carolina, it's not that people got excited, but they decided, you know what? Donald Trump is worse for America. And I think that that is what it will come down to again, is Donald Trump is worse for America ultimately.
GRIFFIN: But I do worry that the Biden campaign is, kind of, flailing at conveying that message at this juncture. They have six months to do it, but, I mean, that Time Magazine piece, that is gold. That needs to be in swing states. They need to be targeting Michigan and Wisconsin and talking about what his policy is with regard to Israel and Palestine and what Donald Trump's record is, the fact they he cut all aid to Palestine...
CROCKETT: Yeah.
GRIFFIN: ... that he did a Muslim ban. And I don't feel like there's that level of aggressiveness and, kind of, scene-setting, in raising the stakes...
(CROSSTALK)
KARL: Yeah, you don't like Biden, wait until you see Trump.
GRIFFIN: Right...
(CROSSTALK)
KHALID: I think the challenge for Biden, too, though, and I look at the remarks he delivered this week from the White House about the protests, and what struck me, because I covered Biden's campaign, was how he spoke about protests in the summer of 2020 as a candidate.
He -- he threaded a very fine needle at that point. This was after the killing of George Floyd. He spoke about there's no place for looting and violence. But also in that speech, he called out the use of excessive use of force by police.
GRIFFIN: Yeah.
KHALID: One thing that I thought was notable, and I have heard from folks on the progressive left, that there were -- you know, not seeing in Biden's remarks this week was no comment about the use of police force, even though, you know, folks have seen these viral videos of professors being slammed to the ground.
And I think that this shows how challenging it is for Biden to both speak to the progressive left of his party and the independent moderates who, in the polls, seem to be on board with him thus far.
KARL: But can you ask you how -- how you respond when you hear, like -- you saw Adams hold up that flyer from -- from one of the protests at Columbia or New York, "Death to America." You heard -- you know, but what we've seen, you know, at George Washington University.
I mean, what -- what's your response to some of the hateful, vile rhetoric that we've seen? Not -- it might not be all of the protests, but there's clearly an undercurrent there.
CROCKETT: No, I mean, honestly, I have denounced all of it. I think it's problematic, and it doesn't matter where it comes from. As a civil rights lawyer, for me, any type of hate should not be tolerated. And I thought that it was interesting that, even when you had Tom Cotton on, he talked about the islamophobia. And he talked about how we need to make sure that we make it clear that there's no place for that. But when you look at the legislation, or when you look at the resolutions, we know that they're not talking about that hate when it comes to the House or the Senate.
So I think that it -- it needs to be made clear. And there are always bad apples. As someone who has been involved in countless protests, there's always somebody that's going to be there to be an agitator, no matter what the cause is. But the problem is exactly what you said. It is the response when it comes to policing.
Policing in this country has never been able, in my opinion, to give an equitable response. It is always over the top. And I think that that is what's upsetting people on the left, is because we see these officers that are slamming professors down and holding them down and being very violent in response to speech. That's a problem.
IGNATIUS: So I just would add one thing. The heart of Biden's dilemma is that he needs to capture the moderate center. He needs the independent voters who haven't made up their mind yet, the people who think he's likable and...
KARL: The Republicans who have concerns about Trump?
IGNATIUS: Yeah, worried about Trump. But he's also got to energize his base. He's got to speak right to these moderate independents and he's got to fire up people on the left who think he's just not doing anything and not defending them and allowing the police to come on campus.
That's his problem, is somehow he's got to go through that very narrow gap. And I'd have to say, right now, I don't think he's doing it very effectively, and the polls show it.
GRIFFIN: And I think he -- I think the economy always registers as the number one issue.
KARL: Even among young people. That's...
(CROSSTALK)
GRIFFIN: Very much so, far ahead of Gaza, according to a Harvard poll.
KARL: Yeah.
GRIFFIN: But I think that he needs to go beyond just, kind of, stating stats and saying, "You know, inflation is down; on macro, the economy's doing better." He needs to speak to people's anxieties. Some things are outside of his control, interest rates, for example. But you talk to anyone under 45, and home ownership is unattainable. That is something that people are going to turn out to vote on. And he needs an inspirational message and is yet to find it.
CROCKETT: I agree with that. But I -- one of the things I've made clear is that this is a team sport. And so, if you like a Jasmine Crockett, and you appreciate the policies that I'm bringing, just imagine Donald Trump being in the White House. He is not going to sign my bills into law and people need to understand that it is not just about the presidency. The president is the one that's going to sign or veto something, but we need to have a strong House and we know what happens when we don't have a strong House. Look at the 118th.
KARL: All right.
CROCKETT: We also have to make sure that we have a Senate that is going to what's right.
KARL: Thank you very much. Up next, a "This Week" exclusive. An interview with the Biden official seen as an enemy of some of America's most powerful corporations and an ally of some of Donald Trump's most ardent supporters. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The heart of American capitalism is a simple idea, open and fair competition. But, what we've seen over the past few decades is less competition and more concentration that holds our economy back. We see it in big agriculture, in big tech, in big pharma, the list goes on. Rather than competing for consumers, they are consuming their competitors.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: President Biden in 2021, touting his administration's efforts to spur economic competition. Federal Trade Commission Chair Lina Khan is the youngest person ever to lead the FTC and she says it's her mission to protect consumers and employees from companies that she says are too big to care. She made some powerful enemies and has found some unlikely allies in Washington.
We caught up with her at the FTC's headquarters on Pennsylvania Avenue.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
LINA KHAN, CHAIRPERSON OF THE FEDERAL TRADE COMMISSION: The FTC has been squarely focused on making sure we're using all of our tools and authorities to protect the American people from illegal business practices.
KARL (voice-over): Lina Khan has become a force in the Biden Administration, winning some surprising allies and some powerful enemies along the way.
KARL: I mean, you've really shaken this place up. You are the most activist chair of this organization that we've had in a long time, if not ever. Is that fair to say?
KHAN: I'm a law enforcer. And in many ways, we're undertaking a deeply conservative project, making sure we're going back to the roots of what the FTC is about, the actual text of the laws that Congress created and making sure we're being faithful to the law on the books and the legal precedent.
KARL: The FTC's aggressive enforcement under Khan's leadership has made her a frequent target of business groups and "The Wall Street Journal" Editorial Board, which declared "Lina Khan Wears Prada," after her agency moved to block a merger between two luxury fashion firms last month.
KHAN: I don't see any Prada on now, but there obviously...
(LAUGHTER).
KHAN: I don't own any.
KARL: It's obviously a play on -- on the movie "The Devil Wears Prada," so that's how they think of you.
But they write, "There's no legal or economic logic to Khan's FTC's antitrust policy other than 'The only good merger is a dead merger.'"
KHAN: Look, 98 percent of all deals in America go through without even a second question being asked by the American government. It's absolutely true that, when we spot an illegal merger, we won't hesitate to act because, if we don't do our job, the American people will lose out.
KARL: You used the phrase "too big to care" to describe some of these big companies. What do you mean by that? What is "too big to care?"
KHAN: Well, the whole premise of our antitrust laws is that, when companies have to compete for your business or compete for your labor, that's a good thing because they have to jostle one another. They have to try to make sure they're providing you a better price, providing you a better product.
When by contrast, you eliminate that competition and you instead just have a single company, that means that the company doesn't have to compete to get your business. They can get away with mistreating you. And in practice, I think we all too often see parts of our economy where people are being mistreated because companies don't have to care.
KARL (voice over): For all the predictable critics, Khan has also won fans across the political spectrum...
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS, (I) VERMONT: Congratulations for doing a great job.
KARL: ... including some pro-Trump Republicans dubbed the "Khanservatives."
REP. MATT GAETZ (R) FLORIDA: She has brought litigation against big business more aggressively than any person to hold her position in a generation.
KARL: Does that surprise you to get praise from those quarters?
KHAN: Antitrust and anti-monopoly has a long bipartisan history in our country. And it's because there's long been a recognition that in the same ways that, if you concentrate power in our political sphere, that can undermine people's liberties and freedoms, if you concentrate power in our economic sphere, that can also be a major threat because then you see businesses can get away with coercing people, with dictating terms, with bullying people.
So the real ways in which monopoly power, in which concentration of economic power, hurts people and hurts communities, has a lot of resonance on both sides of the aisle.
KARL: Her highest profile case came last September, when the FTC filed a long-anticipated suit against Amazon, alleging the retail giant is a monopoly. It's an argument Khan has been making since she was in law school.
So you obviously made your name talking about the threat of Amazon as effectively a monopoly power. In what way is Amazon a monopoly? Because I can buy on Amazon, but I can also go down the street and I can buy at Walmart or I can buy at Target. I mean, how is Amazon a -- a monopoly?
KHAN: A few ways that we can tell that it's a monopoly is because it, too, is acting in ways that involve mistreating its customers. We've seen...
KARL: How so?
KHAN: ... that the fees that it charges small businesses have dramatically increased over the last few years, so that now some small businesses have to pay one out of every $2 to Amazon. It's basically a 50 percent Amazon tax.
Our lawsuit also alleges that Amazon has been using a whole set of secret algorithms to quietly raise prices for consumers. And so we alleged that they have been able to get away with doing this through a whole set of illegal tactics that make it difficult for rival e-commerce websites to really stand up and enter the market and compete in online superstores.
KARL: But people seem to like Amazon. That's why, I mean, Amazon Prime is so popular. How is there a problem if the consumers are happy with it?
KHAN: So antitrust is about protecting fair competition. And when companies are able to lock out the competition, there are all sorts of better companies, better ideas that are not able to make it to market.
And our lawsuit alleges that, if Amazon had not engaged in these illegal tactics, that would have allowed more rival online superstores to emerge and that would be better for consumers who would face more price competition, and it would also be beneficial for the thousands of businesses that have to sell through Amazon. They wouldn't have to just take whatever fee Amazon is charging them.
KARL: So if Amazon is a monopoly, what do you do about it? Do you break them up the way AT&T was broken up? I mean, How do you -- what do you do?
KHAN: So, right now, our lawsuit is focused on proving that Amazon violated the law. Historically, we've seen that the most effective remedies are those that stop the illegal behavior, that prevent it from happening again, and that fully restore the competition that's been lost through the illegal behavior. In practice --
KARL: That seems to be the hardest part. How do you restore the competition?
KHAN: That will be the important question for the court and one that we're going to be excited to explain to the court how they should handle that.
KARL: Now, Amazon -- and they said you're biased. I mean, you've made your name by talking about the threats of Amazon as a law student. You said highly critical things of Meta, and they asked you to recuse yourselves from any decision related to their companies. Why did you not do that?
KHAN: The ethics laws primarily require recusal when you have some kind of conflict of interest.
KARL: But not a clear bias? I mean, you obviously had an opinion about Amazon before you took this job.
KHAN: I have had done academic work. A lot of people that have the fortune of being appointed to these jobs come in through having done policy work, through having done enforcement work. And so, you know, we're absolutely focused on enforcing the law without fear or favor, but we also don't want to kind of indulge, you know, requests that are not serious and that are being made in a frivolous way, if there's no conflict of interest.
KARL (voice-over): Khan hopes her aggressive approach is going to stick regardless of who wins the presidential election.
KARL: Your term is going to be up towards the end of the year. Do you want another term as the FTC Chair?
KHAN: Look, in many ways, it feels like our work is just getting started. And so, we'll see what happens later this year, but it would be an honor to stay on.
KARL: And do you think your work will continue regardless of who wins the presidential election?
KHAN: The bipartisan concern that we see about monopoly power, the way we see concern about people's data being harvested and surveilled, the way we see concern about financialization of health care, these are all issues that is I think will continue to attract concern no matter who's in this job.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL (on camera): Our thanks to Lina Khan. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight," and have a great day.
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