'This Week' Transcript 9-8-24: Former Rep. Liz Cheney and Gov. Sarah Huckabee Sanders

ByABC News
September 8, 2024, 10:06 AM

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, September 8, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Principle over party.

LIZ CHENEY, (R) FORMER WYOMING CONGRESSWOMAN: Not only am I not voting for Donald Trump, but I will be voting for Kamala Harris.

KARL: Liz Cheney backs Kamala Harris.

CHENEY: Donald Trump, if he is re-elected, will be far more dangerous than we have ever seen before.

KARL: The latest high-profile Republican endorsement for Harris. And she got another Cheney endorsement.

CHENEY: Dick Cheney will be voting for Kamala Harris.

KARL: This morning, we're one-on-one with Liz Cheney, only on THIS WEEK.

The great debate.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is not 2016 or 2020. The stakes are even higher this time.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think I probably have won because of debating.

KARL: Trump and Harris meet for the very first time at the ABC presidential debate in just two days.

TRUMP: She wants four more years to enforce a radical left agenda.

HARRIS: Donald Trump is trying to pull us backward.

KARL: What's at stake, and what could unfold. Republican Governor Sarah Sanders of Arkansas joins us.

Plus, Chris Christie and Donna Brazile, and our ABC debate night coverage team.

And as the NFL season kicks off, a look back at U.S. presidents and America's biggest sport, including the time Ronald Reagan and John Lennon met on "Monday Night Football."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK. We are just two days away from the first and likely only debate between Kamala Harris and Donald Trump right here on ABC Tuesday night. A debate that could very well be the most consequential in modern American history with the possible exception of the debate in June that doomed Joe Biden's re-election campaign.

This week featured another extraordinary moment in American politics. Liz Cheney and her father, former Vice President Dick Cheney, long considered among the most conservative and partisan Republicans in the land, announced they are endorsing Kamala Harris for president.

The former vice president was once vilified by Democrats, labeled as a real-life Darth Vader, but his statement endorsing Harris offered an especially harsh view of Donald Trump. “In our nation's 248-year history,” Dick Cheney wrote, “there has never been an individual who is a greater threat to our republic than Donald Trump. He tried to steal the last election using lies and violence to keep himself in power after the voters had rejected him. He can never be trusted with power again.”

Of course, the Cheneys are not alone. Some of the most prominent Republican leaders of the last two decades have also declared Donald Trump unfit for office, including 2012 Republican presidential nominee Mitt Romney, members of the McCain family, the former speaker of the House, Paul Ryan, and Mike Pence, Donald Trump's own vice president.

And overnight we learned that former President George W. Bush will not be making any endorsement whatsoever. In other words, the only living former Republican president not named Trump is not supporting his party's presidential nominee.

But despite all that, the vast majority of Republican voters continue to support Donald Trump. Our latest ABC News/Ipsos poll found that 93 percent – 93 percent of likely Republican voters support Trump over Harris. That's almost exactly the share of Republicans who voted for Trump four years ago.

Will that change? Can Kamala Harris win over Republicans looking for an alternative to Trump?

Liz Cheney joins me now for her first television interview in months.

Welcome to THIS WEEK.

LIZ CHENEY, (R) FORMER WYOMING CONGRESSWOMAN: Thank you. Great to be with you, Jon.

KARL: So, bottom line, why did you make this decision to support Harris, and why’d you do it now?

CHENEY: Yes, I – you know, I’ve been voting for 40 years. My first vote I ever cast was for Ronald Reagan in 1984. I've never voted for a Democrat.

KARL: Wow.

CHENEY: And it tells you, I think, the stakes in this election. You know, Donald Trump presents a challenge and a threat fundamentally to the republic. We see it on a daily basis. Somebody who was willing to use violence in order to attempt to seize power, to stay inpower. Someone who represents unrecoverable catastrophe, frankly, in my view. And we have to do everything possible to ensure that he doesn't – he – that he's not re-elected.

Given how close this race is, in – in my view, again, it's not enough. You have many Republicans out there who are saying, well, you know, we're – we’re not going to vote for him, but we will – we will write someone else in.

KARL: Right.

CHENEY: And I – I think that this time around that's not enough.

KARL: Well –

CHENEY: That it's important to actually cast a vote for Vice President Harris.

KARL: I want to get to that in a moment. Be first, you've made it abundantly clear that you have had policy disagreements with Harris. You still have policy disagreements with Harris. But she has moderated her positions on a whole range of issues from where she was just, you know, just a few years ago.

Did those moderations and the efforts to present kind of a moderate face at the – at the Democratic Convention, did that make the decision to endorse her easier?

CHENEY: You know, the – I have never viewed this as a policy election.

KARL: Right.

CHENEY: But I think that – that it's a very important point. If you look at Vice President Harris' speech, for example, at the Democratic Convention, it is a speech that Ronald Reagan could have given. It’s a speech that George Bush could have given. It's very much an embrace and an understanding of – of the exceptional nature of this great nation. A love of America. A recognition that America is a special place. A recognition that we all have to work together to ensure that.

And you contrast that to ensure that we maintain it. You contrast that with what we hear from Donald Trump, again, on a daily basis, that America is a failing nation, that America is a laughing stock. The trash-talking of the United States of America very much is part of the message that Donald Trump is – is pushing.

And so, at the end of the day, I think it's important for people to recognize, he's not a conservative. The policies that we're seeing him put forward, including, you know, again, on an almost daily basis, this notion of embracing global tariffs, that he's going to impose 100 percent, 200 percent tariffs, that is fundamentally an anti-conservative policy. It's also a policy that I point out to friends of mine who say, well, we're going to vote for him because of his economic conservativism, will choke off global trade, will likely lead us down the path that we've seen before, for example, in the 1930s, lead to – at that point, it was a depression.

The important thing for people to remember about something like the tariffs that he's promising, including – you know, in addition to the fact that it's disastrous policy, he can do it alone. He does not need Congress, if he were to be re-elected, to impose those massive tariffs that – that will, in fact, kill the American economy and the global economy.

So –

KARL: I mean, in fact, he did some of that when he was in the White House last time.

CHENEY: And he’s – he’s promising – he's promising far more.

KARL: To go to a new level.

CHENEY: Right.

KARL: So, but – but before I leave Harris' policies. Back in 2019, when she was running for the Democratic nomination, she took a range of positions, Medicare for all. She suggested she would favor abolishing ICE, decriminalizing illegal border crossings. A whole range of – of issues that she has now, you know, apparently changed. Would you still have been able to endorse Kamala Harris if it was the Kamala Harris of 2019 and 2020?

CHENEY: Look, I – I think that she has changed in a number of very important ways on issues that matter. And I – I would encourage independents to look at where she is on these policy issues today. I would encourage independents to compare where she is today with where Donald Trump is on these issues.

And so, I think, from a policy perspective, it is very important to recognize the change, to recognize that she understands that this election is going to require a coalition of people from across the political spectrum supporting her, and – and that also necessitates an understanding that you've got to govern for all of those people. And on top of all of that, the Republicans have nominated somebody who – who, you know, is depraved. Somebody who shows us every day that – that, you know, he has tendencies and he's willing to embrace things that are fundamentally a danger to – to this nation and to our Constitution. So, the choice, in my view, is not a close one.

KARL: But have you spoken to Harris in the process of making this?

CHENEY: I have.

KARL: And – and can you tell us anything about that conversation?

CHENEY: I'm not going to talk about the details of the conversation, except I would just say that – that she has a full recognition and understanding of the stakes of this race, and of the importance of reflecting the broad coalition that's coming together to support her.

KARL: And voting for her to stop Trump, which you made it very clear is primary motivation here, is one thing. What kind of president do you think she would be?

CHENEY: Look, I think, you know, she has shown us, and you can watch again through the convention, you can watch in terms of the lessons that -- that she's learned as vice president, listen to her talk about her vision for this country, her vision for the future. I mean, we -- we've been talking about economic policy.

You know, you look at national security policy -- and again, there are certainly areas where I disagree with Biden administration, national security policy, where I’ve disagreed with Vice President Harris's position on issues.

But when it comes to fundamental alliances, when it comes to the importance of NATO, for example, and how important it is for the United States to lead in the world, we've seen a sea change. We now have a Republican Party that is embracing isolationism, that is embracing Putin.

That, you know, we've seen just in the last week, the Republican vice presidential nominee willing to appear, willing to be interviewed by Tucker Carlson who is platforming pro-Nazis, is himself pushing pro-Nazi propaganda.

That is not the party of Ronald Reagan, and I believe strongly that if you're talking about a national security set of issues and you care about America's leadership role in the world, a vote for Vice President Harris is the right vote to make this time around.

KARL: It’s an extraordinary reordering of the whole political system on -- when it comes to national security.

Who would Ronald Reagan be supporting in this race? Who do you think?

CHENEY: There -- there is absolutely no chance that Ronald Reagan would be supporting Donald Trump. Donald Trump doesn't stand for any of the things that Ronald Reagan did.

And it's another place where I would urge my Republican colleagues, both in the Congress but across the country, to really look at Donald Trump's policies, to really look at the danger that he presents, to look at -- at, you know, what he was willing to do to stay in power.

It's -- it's a firm rejection not just of traditional Republican policies but of the constitutional order on which this country depends.

KARL: So what do you say to those Republicans? And there are a lot of them who are absolutely adamant they're not supporting Donald Trump but they're not taking the next step, they're going to write somebody in.

And we've heard this from Mitt Romney. We've heard it from Mike Pence. We've heard it from Larry Hogan. We've heard it from a lot of -- a lot of Republicans that are certainly anti-Trump.

Why are they wrong in not taking the extra step?

CHENEY: Well, I would say, you know, given the closeness of this election, particularly if you're going to find yourself voting in a swing state, you've got to take the extra step. If you really do recognize the threat that Donald Trump poses, then -- then it's not enough to simply say, I’m not going to vote for him.

I would also remind them, you know what? It's a secret ballot.

So I would prefer to have as many people as possible out publicly making the case. But at the end of the day, you just have to wrestle with your own conscience when you're there in the voting booth.

And I would expect that you will see far more Republicans and independents, you know, when the time comes and they've got to make that decision make the right decision.

KARL: It's -- you know, there were a lot of talk during the primaries of the Nikki Haley voters, and a lot -- some states seemed like even when she stopped running, almost a third of Republican voters were looking for an alternative to Trump and voting for Nikki Haley. She's now saying that she is, quote, on standby to campaign for Donald Trump, to help him get reelected.

She's also, of course, called him unhinged, unqualified to be president, diminished.

What do you make of Nikki Haley's position on this?

CHENEY: I mean, I -- I can't understand her position on this in any kind of a principled way. I think that, you know, the things that she said that she made clear when she was running in the primary, those things are true.

And -- and again, you know, we are -- those of us who are conservative, those of us who believe in fidelity to the Constitution have a responsibility and have a duty to recognize, this is not about partisan politics, and -- and the country is going to need to rebuild conservative -- true conservative movement when we're -- when we're through this election cycle.

But this November, casting a vote for Donald Trump or writing someone in means that you've made the decision in too many instances that so many elected Republicans have made which is -- is to abandon the Constitution, to tell yourself that this is just simply, you know, a partisan choice. It's -- that's not what we're facing this time around.

KARL: By the way, are you still a Republican?

CHENEY: I’m a conservative.

KARL: Have you left the party? I remember because we -- we spoke about this a while ago, and you said if Trump were the nominee, you would not consider yourself a Republican.

CHENEY: I -- I’m certainly not a Trump Republican. I am a conservative. I think that -- that what's happened to the Republican Party today, you know, is indefensible. And I hope to beable to rebuild, as I said, after this – after this cycle.

But I also think it's really important for us as we're thinking about rebuilding, as we're thinking about the future of the country, to recognize that – that – that at the end of the day, the vast majority of people in this country want to know fundamentally that – that their elected officials are going to defend the peaceful transfer of power, and that they are going to put the Constitution first.

And – and as someone as – you know, who’s been a lifelong Republican, it's heartbreaking to me to see what has happened to so many of the elected officials in my party. And – and I know we can do better.

KARL: Trump has, obviously, made retribution a theme of his campaign. And he's talked about prosecuting you. He's done it a lot. I mean just again after you endorsed Kamala Harris. Are – are you worried about what will happen specifically to you if he – if he gets elected president again?

CHENEY: I don't think about it in those terms. I think about it in terms of what's going to happen to our country. And, you know, it's – it’s – it’s not personal from my perspective with one exception, and that is that I'm a mother. I'm the mother of five kids. And – and it is personal to me that my children grow up in a country where they know they can depend on the peaceful transfer of power, that they grow up in a country where their elected officials put fidelity of the Constitution first. That's how it's personal to me.

It's personal to me when I – when I listen to, you know, fellow Republicans in the past say things to me like, well, it's fine, there are guardrails. You know, he – he – he can't do that much damage. It's just simply not true. That –

KARL: Well, I mean on those guardrails, we had the Supreme Court has now issued its immunity decision, declaring essentially that – that – that a president has immunity for anything that president may do, virtually anything that – that can be in any way defined as an – as an official act.

How does that immunity decision by the Supreme Court – what does it mean to it – the possibility of a second Trump administration?

CHENEY: Well, it obviously makes – makes the danger even greater. But when you look at what Donald Trump would be able to do with the levers of power, the extent to which he's already said he – he will not abide by the rulings of the courts. You know, our courts can't enforce their own rulings. If a president won't abide by the rulings of the courts, the rule of law disintegrates immediately. He's made clear that he will, for example, pardon the – the January 6th rioters.

And if you think about, you know, the Republican Party – this is another point where they're – they’re presenting themselves now as a party of law and order. You know, Donald Trump sat for hours and watched people in his name brutalize the police officers, law enforcement, at the United States Capitol. He sat for hours and – and watched on television and ignored the pleas of his family and others saying, you have to tell the mob to go home. So, this is not a president who believes in the rule of law. This is a president who will use violence to achieve his own ends. And I think that the – the potential of the damage that he could do were he elected again is significant.

It's also important to remember, on January 6th, the person who perhaps played the most – single most important role, in addition to the law enforcement officers who physically fought, was Vice President Pence, because he refused to do what Donald Trump was – was telling him to do, illegally and unconstitutionally throw out votes. J.D. Vance, who Donald Trump has picked to be his vice presidential running mate, has said specifically that – that he would, in fact, do that. That he would put Donald Trump's orders and instructions ahead of the Constitution. And a – it’s – it is hard to imagine a much graver danger than a president and a vice president who will put themselves above the Constitution.

KARL: Do you think he'll ever be held accountable for what happened on January 6th?

CHENEY: I think, number one, it is up to us, the voters, to hold him accountable in November, not to re-elect someone who did what he did.

Number two, I think that people need to look at what he argues and what his lawyers are arguing in court, in the January 6th case in particular, which is, you know, trying, at every moment, to suppress that evidence. The Select Committee put on a significant amount of evidence, available publicly, transcripts –

KARL: Thousands and thousands of pages of transcripts and documents. Yes.

CHENEY: That – and – and Donald Trump has had for, you know, years now. And the special counsel has, you know, come up with even more, developed even additional evidence, testimony in front of the grand jury by those who were the most senior leaders.

The American people deserve to hear that evidence, And Donald Trump is doing everything he can to prevent it because he knows what those senior officials said. He's seen the evidence and the testimony.

The American people deserve to see it, but ultimately, we have to hold him responsible and accountable, and we have to make sure that he's never in a position of power again.

KARL: All right, Liz Cheney, thank you very much for joining us live here on THIS WEEK.

CHENEY: Thanks. Great to be with you, Jon. Thank you.

KARL: Coming up, she served as Donald Trump's voice at the White House. We'll talk to Arkansas Governor Sarah Huckabee Sanders about what the former president is doing to prepare for Tuesday's debate. We'll also ask her to respond to what Liz Cheney just said. We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She's in Pennsylvania, and she's practicing for the debate. She's locked herself in a room. She's got a lot to learn. She shouldn't even go to the debate. She should go back to Washington, D.C. and fix all the things she's complaining about.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Are you ready to face Donald Trump?

HARRIS: Yes, I am.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: What's the one thing you want to really get across?

HARRIS: Well, there is a lot, but, look, it's time to turn the page on the divisiveness. It's time to bring our country together.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Donald Trump and Kamala Harris on this week's debate. Arkansas' Governor Sarah Sanders joins me now.

Governor Sanders, thank you for being here, and I -- people may not realize this, but as I understand it, you actually played Kamala Harris in the debate prep for the vice presidential debate four years ago. Isn't that right?

GOV. SARAH HUCKABEE SANDERS (R), ARKANSAS: I did. It's been quite a while and I almost actually forgot that, I had that role and participated, but, you know, it was very difficult to get in that mindset, but I was glad to be helpful in the process and glad to see this debate finally take place and see this matchup between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris. I think it is really important for the American people to see the big contrast that exists between these two candidates.

KARL: And I want to get to what Liz Cheney had to say and her endorsement, but before I get to that, on the debate, what do you think the stakes are? How important is this for former president Trump?

SANDERS: Well, I think it's actually more important for Vice President Harris, somebody who doesn't speak to the media, doesn't take questions -- in fact, at the end of this interview, Jon, I will have done more interviews during this election cycle than she has since becoming the Democrat nominee for president.

It is absurd that she does not take questions from the press, from the American people, and so I think this is actually a much more important night for her because it's so rare that we hear from her, that we hear her take questions, or that we know anything that she actually stands for.

KARL: How is the former president preparing for this? What's your sense? You have been with him before big moments. He likes to say he doesn't need to prepare for a debate, but what is he doing?

SANDERS: He prepares every single day not only -- I think the biggest way that he does that is by traveling around the country and actually talking to voters. He takes questions from the press on a regular basis.

So I think every day is debate prep for Donald Trump. He'll go in game time ready just as he does for every interview, every rally that he does. This is not something that is a heavy lift for him.

I think that's why you're hearing so much about the preparation for Vice President Harris because this isn't something she does very often, and I think she has a lot to get ready for, and I don't think that she's up to the challenge, in large part not just because I don't know that she's a great debater, but she's so wrong on the issues that Americans care about, and she has a terrible track record to talk about.

Donald Trump has a good story to tell. He shows up at this debate from a position of strength.

She shows up from a position of weakness. The administration that she is totally responsible and accountable for has been an abysmal failure. The economy is bad. Inflation has skyrocketed.

You go to any grocery store or gas station as a family, as an American, you're feeling the failures of this administration. She doesn't get to run away from that.

You look at the crisis at the border. They have opened it wide up, allowing millions of people to come in. They don't know who they are, where they're going or what they're coming for.

We actually had taken steps and made significant progress on securing the border under President Trump. We actually had a safer world. We didn't have conflicts left and right all over the place.

She has to be held responsible for these things. She doesn't get to run away from ‘em, and I think that's what makes this debate so difficult for her this week.

KARL: Well, you heard from Liz Cheney and, obviously, she's not -- not alone among prominent Republicans that are -- that are supporting Kamala Harris or simply saying that Donald Trump is unfit for office.

How do you square that -- that record that you just talked about, which is obviously debatable and will be debated, with what happened at the end of the Trump presidency where, you know, he did try to overturn a presidential election, tried to overturn a democratic election?

SANDERS: I do think she actually is significantly in the minority here. You look across the board, prominent Republicans are supporting President Trump.

But ultimately, I think she's a non-factor. I’m not trying to be rude, but you don't get to call yourself a conservative or Republican when you support the most radical nominee that the Democrats have ever put up. That doesn't make you a conservative. It certainly doesn't make you a Republican. I think it makes you somebody who wants to protect the establishment.

Frankly, I don't think this is news. It should come as no shock that Liz Cheney is not supporting the president. But what should come as a shock is that she is trying to call herself a conservative Republican or either one of those two words while supporting somebody who so clearly does not represent conservative principles.

KARL: Well, well, on one specific that she pointed out and others have, too, you know, Donald Trump is talking about, you know, widespread tariffs -- tariffs on virtually every that is important into the United States, big tariffs. It's become almost a centerpiece of his economic message right now.

How is that conservative? I mean, I’ve been covering politics for a long time. Conservatives usually don't like taxes, don't like tariffs. Now, Trump is talking about them all the time.

SANDERS: This is a president who uses that as a tool to hold others’ feet to the fire. He wants to make sure that we're actually making things in America. There's nothing more conservative than empowering Americans and American companies to build things here versus building them overseas.

We have to quit becoming completely dependent and reliant on people who hate us, people like China, people like Russia, people like Iran. We have a president now who has allowed himself to be completely walked all over, and a vice president who has been right there by his side, allowing other countries to take the lead.

As we move into the next four years in the next administration, we have to decide who do we want to be the world leaders? Do we want it to be the United States or do we want it to be our adversaries like China, like Russia?

Frankly, I don't want it to be them. I want it to be the United States. And there's only one person and one president and one administration who's done that before and will do it again, and it's Donald Trump.

We certainly cannot count on Vice President Harris to build back American strength when she's never demonstrated a capability of doing that in the past.

KARL: All right. Well, Sen -- Governor Sanders, thank you for joining us on “This Week”. We'll see all those issues debated out right here on ABC on Tuesday. Thank you for joining us.

SANDERS: Thanks for having me.

KARL: Up next, Chris Christie and Donna Brazile on the big debate Tuesday night, and later, with the NFL season underway, we opened up the ABC Archives for some iconic football moments in presidential history. You've got to see this stuff. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

TRUMP: She doesn't have the look. She doesn't have the stamina. I said she doesn't have the stamina.

HILLARY CLINTON, (D) FORMER UNITED STATES SECRETARY OF STATE AND FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: It's just awfully good that someone with the temperament of Donald Trump is not in charge of the law in our country.

TRUMP: Because you would be in jail.

CLINTON: What we want to do is to replenish the social security trust fund --

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Such a nasty woman.

(CROSSTALK)

TRUMP: Proud Boys, stand back and stand by.

Why didn't you do that four years ago, even less than that --- why didn't you when you were vice president?

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I am not --

TRUMP: I really don't know what he said at the end of that sentence. I don't think he knows what he said either.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Some highlights from Donald Trump's past six general election debates. This Tuesday will be Trump's seventh televised general election debate. That is more than any other presidential candidate in American history. So, what can we expect this time? Chris Christie and Donna Brazile are standing by. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: The ABC presidential debate is just two days away.

Let's bring in former DNC chair Donna Brazile and former New Jersey Governor, Chris Christie.

So, Chris, you have debated Donald Trump. You have helped Donald Trump prepare for a debate. You have seen this all play out.

What – what is going on with him right now? What – how do you think he is actually getting ready for this debate?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: He doesn't get ready. I mean, as someone who was in charge of debate prep in 2016 and 2020 for him, it was a constant struggle. There were times when we would go and debate prep would be scheduled. We’d go in to sit with him and he would just say, no, I’m not doing it. And – and that would be it. And it just wouldn't happen.

And so my guess is that, you know, especially now, as you said in – in the lead up, you know, his seventh general election presidential debate, he really doesn't think he needs to prepare. He believes that just whatever his gut instincts are, are what's going to carry him.

He will allow people to speak at him for (INAUDIBLE). I will guarantee you there's been no mock debates. There never has been. He won't allow it, won't permit it. So, he will be typically Donald Trump, which is, he's going to go in there and wing it. And that's why I think what Kamala Harris does in this debate is significantly more important than what Donald Trump does because he’s going to be him. He’s just going to wing it. You've seen this show before. She's the one that's going to get the most attention.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Absolutely.

KARL: So, what does she – I mean she's obviously spending a lot of time preparing. They've built a set. They're filming mock debates. What – what is she trying to accomplish here?

BRAZILE: Well, first of all, she has to own the future. She has to walk into that room and own that stage. He's a showman. I totally agree with the governor. He's a showman. He's been preparing for this for the last 20 years because Donald Trump knows the TV. He knows the angles. He knows the cameras. And he knows –

KARL: Instinct – instinctively.

BRAZILE: The guy is – is one of the greatest marketers of my entire lifetime. I mean maybe someone else exists. But she has to own this debate in terms of her messaging, and making sure that she talks to the American people and tell them up front, let's talk about inflation. Let's talk about it. We’ve had to wrestle this – this damn thing down. Let's talk about gas prices. Let's talk about grocery – I mean, she has to own this.

And also, I would remind her about Muhammad Ali. One of the greatest, you know what, champions in – in – in the universe. But when he went into that first fight with Sonny Liston, they asked the, you know, the underdog, what's your approach? He said, well, I’m going to sting like a butterfly – no, I'm going to –

CHRISTIE: Float like a butterfly.

BRAZILE: Float like a –

KARL: Float like a butterfly, sting like a bee.

BRAZILE: Thank you very much. He said, your hands can't see, OK, how I’m going to do this.

CHRISTIE: Yes.

BRAZILE: So, she has to take that same messaging in her spirit –

KARL: Is there –

BRAZILE: And go in there and not be intimidated or rattled by what is essentially someone who knows how to hurl insults at you.

KARL: So, you saw all those clips from debates past. And – and Trump's best and maybe worst moments, both, are totally spontaneous.

BRAZILE: Yes.

KARL: When he looks at Hillary and says, that's because you’d be in jail. Or to – or to Joe Biden. I don't know what he just said. I don’t think he does either.

Is there a risk for her to being too practiced and appearing too canned? I mean –

BRAZILE: Well, I think for a woman -- I mean, there's a certain way that you have to come across. She can come across very presidential.

And look what she did during that debate with former Vice President Mike Pence, she said I’m speaking. She kept control of the mic. She kept control of the moment.

And again she has to constantly remind the American people, here's what I plan to do, not just sit back and respond to all of the nonsense and the lies and all of the other stuff that's going to come from Donald Trump. She has to own it. If she owns it, she can win it.

KARL: What -- we -- what we're hearing from the Harris campaign is they want to get under his skin, provoke him. Will they be able to do -- will she be able to do that?

CHRISTIE: She won't have to if she's smart.

(LAUGHTER)

CHRISTIE: I mean, look, you know, having been in a number of these debates myself, Jon, and then prepared Donald Trump for them. One of the things that you tell to people you're -- you're helping and that are told to you when you're getting prepared is about what word should you write on that yellow legal pad when you walk out there? Your touchstones --

KARL: Right.

CHRISTIE: -- to remind you of what to do.

If I were preparing Kamala Harris, I told her to write two words only on there: charm and disarm. That's it.

She needs to look into that camera and charm the American people. She needs to show that she's not going to be the 24-hour-a-day leaf blower noise that he is.

She's got to go and show them there's another way to lead. There is a way that you can be kind, that you can be smart and tough at the same time. That's the charm.

Disarm, Jon, is do not engage him in that stuff.

BRAZILE: Thank you.

CHRISTIE: The smartest answer she gave in the interview on CNN was when Dana Bash asked her about Trump's accusation that she'd only recently become Black and she did what's hard for candidates to do, she paused for two or three seconds, shook her head, and she said, same old playbook, next question.

That's what will get under his skin. If she refuses to engage him in that back and forth, which Hillary failed at miserably because she wasn't good at it and she engaged, don't engage with him on that. That increases his stature. You want to decrease his stature by being dismissive of him.

KARL: You saw that the Harris team really wanted these mics to be live and, you know, ultimately, the two sides had to agree and they negotiate -- the rules had already been negotiated under Biden, so the mics won't be hot when you're not speaking.

Are you surprised that the Trump team insisted and even Trump himself continued to insist that they -- that his mics be muted, his own mic? I mean --

CHRISTIE: No, I’m not surprised and two different reasons, right?

KARL: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: Reason number one for the staff is not shocking to anybody, because they know how awful he is when the mic is live, and they don't want that. They're the practical political people. Trump's reason is totally different.

KARL: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: These are the rules that I agreed to and I’m not giving in.

KARL: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: Because to have opened the mics would have been to give into her, that's what his concern was, all ego-based.

KARL: It's all about the rules.

CHRISTIE: All ego-based.

BRAZILE: Look, I don't think that makes a difference. I saw the memo and I said, why bother? I mean, look, again, don't take the bait. That's a great -- that's great advice.

But she has to walk into that room again, on the room, on her message, and say this is about the future and explain the American people what she's doing, what she plans to do and then outline that vision and just look at Donald Trump. She gives him a side eye and basically say stop.

KARL: All right. Well, it's going to be right here on ABC on Tuesday. W got an hour pregame. You guys are both going to be there before the debate and --

BRAZILE: Can we bring out popcorn and wine?

KARL: Bring it all.

Up next, my ABC colleagues Martha Raddatz, Mary Bruce and Rachel Scott will be here for the latest on what we know about how Trump and Harris are getting ready for the debate. We'll be back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: And our pre-debate coverage starts at 8:00 p.m. Eastern right here on ABC Tuesday where I will be joined by our team who is all here right now. We have "This Week" co-anchor Martha Raddatz, our Chief White House Correspondent Mary Bruce who covers the Harris campaign, and Senior Congressional Correspondent Rachel Scott who covers just about everything on the face of the earth.

(LAUGH)

KARL: So let me start with you, Martha. We saw -- it's a point that is underappreciated. Donald Trump has done more general election debates than anybody in the history of American politics. You were actually on the stage as the moderator the last time he debated a woman, Hillary Clinton, in 2016.

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS CO-ANCHOR: And it was very obvious that that was different for him. And right away, he starts out with kind of the body language, he was walking around the stage. That was the debate, as a reminder, that was a town hall debate. Each candidate had a lectern, but Donald Trump almost immediately left his lectern, and he was looming over her and in the background, and he would go after the moderators too.

I mean, specifically, try to debate us, and that was a challenge because you just kept putting it back on him. Mr. Trump, please answer the question, please let's go forward. I mean, you basically wanted to give him a time-out if he didn't stop that. But watching the dynamic of the two was very different in those debates with Hillary Clinton than it was with Joe Biden.

KARL: And how -- Mary, so obviously, the Harris team has studied that debate --

MARY BRUCE, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Oh, yeah.

KARL: -- and the other debates. Bring us inside the kind of prep they're doing.

BRUCE: Oh, they are taking this very, very seriously, taking a very different, in fact basically the opposite approach to Donald Trump. She is hunkered down in Pittsburgh. She's studying up, she is doing these mock debates. They've erected a stage, they are doing the full TV lighting. They have -- a lot of actually the people who prepped Hillary Clinton for that debate now involved in this.

Clinton's former aide Philippe Reines is playing Donald Trump and he goes full method actor really inhabiting the role, and they are quick to note that, yes, Kamala Harris is an experienced debater, but this is different because, of course, Trump has a lot of experience at this. This is the first time she's faced off with Trump. The first time she's done a presidential debate, actually the first time she will come face-to-face with Trump. They have never met in part, of course, because Donald Trump did not participate in the peaceful transfer of power, of course, during the last election. So this is a lot of new territory for her.

The goal that the campaign has, of course, is for her to continue to define herself, do that before Trump can do that for her, and then to pivot and go on the attack. They are very concerned about that Trump amnesia as they describe it, that voters have sort of forgotten some of the chaos of the Trump years. She wants to highlight what she believes is his failed record, and then attack.

And look, Kamala Harris is someone who knows how to land a punch, and she punches hard. But she has to pick those moments. She's also someone who we know rehearses those attack lines, and workshops those attack lines.

KARL: Right.

BRUCE: But this is a balance here.

KARL: And sometimes they appear rehearsed. Sometimes they appear rehearsed.

BRUCE: Exactly. It's a careful balance she has to achieve.

KARL: By the way, in case you're wondering what those images you were seeing, those were live shots, we can bring it up again, of the Philadelphia Constitutional Hall where the debate is taking place. Our team is in there right now, literally right now, working on constructing that set.

Now, Rachel, you heard what Chris Christie said. He said Trump doesn't prepare for debates. I am hearing that he's actually doing a little more preparation for this. Bring us inside that camp.

RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes. I'm hearing the exact same, Jon. Look, I think the reality is that Donald Trump is preparing more than he is letting on. There is nothing formal. There are no mock debates. Christie was absolutely right about that. There is no lighting. There's no one standing across from him in a suit that they think that Kamala Harris is going to wear on the debate stage that night.

KARL: Right.

SCOTT: None of that is happening, but he is doing these sort of informal policy talk sessions, right, with his advisers, and I am told that also Congressman Matt Gaetz has been brought into the mix as well, and he is helping Trump on some of the issues that may be more challenging when talking about his legal challenges, issues around abortion that we know he's going to face some questions about.

KARL: Firing questions at him.

SCOTT: Exactly, and also former congresswoman Tulsi Gabbard which we know challenged Vice President Kamala Harris on the debate stage back in 2019. She's been involved as well. One thing to watch for, I think, is going to be key. When it came to Hillary Clinton, Donald Trump at least had some respect for her as a person, as a politician.

KARL: I mean, she went to his wedding. She went to his wedding with Melania.

SCOTT: He genuinely does not think that Kamala Harris is a smart person. He says that publicly and he means it. And he says it privately as well. How does that come across on the debate stage and does he lose his cool in a way that turns off voters?

RADDATZ: Which she would very much like to happen. That he loses his cool. Again those muted microphones, I don't think it'll make that much of a difference, frankly, because he can still talk during his time. He's going to go after her. She's going to go after him. So whether he loses his cool -- in many ways, Donald Trump has been the same in every debate except the one with Chris Wallace, and I think he learned his lesson in that one, that he went too far.

If you look back at the debates of Donald Trump, he's essentially the same. He pops off, he says something, he doesn't seem particularly well-prepared on policy, and it hasn't made much of a difference.

KARL: The debate you moderated as you well remember.

RADDATZ: As I do well remember.

KARL: It was right after the "Access Hollywood" --

RADDATZ: 48 hours after the "Access Hollywood."

KARL: Where Republicans are fleeing, everybody thought, most Republicans thought the race was over.

RADDATZ: We didn't know whether he'd actually debate.

KARL: I mean, he basically saved his campaign with that debate. I mean, he can -- he's not to be underestimated.

RADDATZ: Well, remember the showmanship part of that, too, because just before we walked out, in walked the women who had accused President Bill Clinton of sexual assault.

KARL: Paula Jones, Monica Broderick.

RADDATZ: They were in the audience and remember also that was with an audience. It does make a difference. We had to shush the audience a few times during that.

KARL: Yes.

RADDATZ: But that debate, he walked out of there and felt he won the debate. Hillary Clinton walked out of there and felt she won the debate.

KARL: But talk about that, the audience, because he wanted an audience for these debates as well, the CNN debate and this debate, and he agreed not to. How does -- because he plays off an audience. How does that (INAUDIBLE)?

RADDATZ: He does. And an audience can make a difference if the audience is sitting there cheering for you which has happened with Donald Trump in rallies and everywhere else, and the town hall that he had.

KARL: Yes.

RADDATZ: The audience was -- but you have to keep -- my experience, and I did Joe Biden and Paul Ryan, the audience kept pretty quiet except the one with Hillary Clinton and Donald Trump, and you had some, you know, booing and hissing, and that does make a difference.

He does play off the audience. He obviously can't this time, but he will try to have that energy in different ways.

KARL: And Rachel, his team really wants him to focus on issues, not the personal attacks. I guess that's -- we don't know.

SCOTT: Yes. You don't really know what version of Donald Trump is going to show up that night, but for good reason because even when you look at the "New York Times"-Sienna poll today, you see that he's still leading on key issues, namely the economy, immigration and crime. And --

KARL: And not personal attributes.

SCOTT: And not -- but some of his attacks calling Harris liberal, progressive, those are actually landing amongst some voters.

KARL: All right. We will continue this conversation Tuesday night at 8:00. Watch us.

Up next, Ronald Reagan, the time -- we're going to talk about the time he ran into John Lennon on "Monday Night Football." Seriously, this happened. And more great presidential moments in a moment, all from the ABC Archives, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: And finally on this opening week for the National Football League, we dive into the ABC Archives for some memorable moments involving two American presidents and America's most popular sport.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: On the day of his second inauguration as president, Ronald Reagan spent some time practicing flipping a coin.

RONALD REAGAN, (R) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Oops, no. Not that one.

(LAUGH)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: On that day, he would start his second term and become the first president to do the Super Bowl coin toss.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The Dolphins called heads. Mr. President, would you please toss the coin?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Despite the practice, the coin flew a little off course.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN: It is tails.

(CROWD CHEERING)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: The toss and a classic Reagan-esque touch.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REAGAN: Well, thank you. It was a privilege, and all I can say is something that used to be a little prayer of mine when I played football myself. May everyone do their best. May there be no injuries. May the best team win, and no one have regrets.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Two years later, when the New York Giants visited the White House, they treated Reagan to the familiar tradition of pouring Gatorade on the winning coach, except they used popcorn. Before he became president, then-governor of California Ronald Reagan, visited ABC's "Monday Night Football" booth where none other than John Lennon was there talking with the anchors. A decade later in the White House, ABC's Howard Cosell joked with him about it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

HOWARD COSELL, ABC SPORTS BROADCASTER: Remember "Monday Night Football" in San Francisco when you were governor, and John Lennon came into the booth?

(LAUGH)

REAGAN: Yes. That was extraordinary.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Fast forward to 2006 when people were wondering whether then-Senator Barack Obama would run for president, he made an appearance on "Monday Night Football."

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BARACK OBAMA, (D) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: So tonight, I would like to put all the doubts to rest. I would like to announce to my hometown of Chicago and all of America that I am ready -- for the Bears to go all the way, baby. Dun dun dun dun dun.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Two years later, the night before the 2008 election --

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Senator Barack Obama and Senator John McCain will be joining Chris Berman, coming up on our Toyota Halftime Show.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Obama and Senator John McCain appeared on "Monday Night Football" to make their final pitch to voters.

And I'll make a pitch here to tune into "Monday Night Football" tomorrow night on ABC and ESPN. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us, and tune in here Tuesday night for full coverage on ABC from the National Constitution Center, there it is in Philadelphia.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)