TRANSCRIPT: ABC News/Facebook/WMUR Republicans Debate

ROMNEY: No, that's...

HUCKABEE: ... was praising you for that, and...

ROMNEY: I do not support and have never supported a timed withdrawal, so that's wrong, Governor.

You know, it's really helpful if you talk about your policies and the things you believe, and let me talk about my policies.

And my policy is, I've never talked about a timed withdrawal with a date certain for us to leave. That's not the case. Simply wrong.

I've also supported the troop surge, Governor, and I supported it on the same day the president brought it forward.

And the critical thing here is for us to stand together and to say, "I think we do agree with the troop surge. We believe that the troops surge is going to make an enormous difference for the world and protect us from the establishment of safe havens from which Al Qaida could launch attacks against us."

GIBSON: Very quickly.

PAUL: There's always a radical element in almost all religions. They have to have an incentive. We give them that incentive.

The question that you don't -- aren't willing to ask is, why is it that they attack America? I mean, they don't attack the Canadians. They don't attack the Swiss. If it were merely because they wanted to go into Europe, why do they...

(CROSSTALK) ROMNEY: Is it such a puzzle?

ROMNEY: Is it such a mystery as to why they attack America?

PAUL: It is...

ROMNEY: They're not going after Luxembourg.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: It is because we've gone six...

GIULIANI: Ron, Ron...

ROMNEY: We're the strongest nation in the world.

PAUL: We have...

GIULIANI: Ron, it's simply not true.

Islamic terrorists killed over 500 Americans before September 11, 2001, going back to the late 1960s. They have also killed people recently in Bali, in London. They have launched attacks in Germany.

(UNKNOWN): Madrid.

GIULIANI: Where did the attack on the Munich Olympics take place: in the United States, or did it take place in Germany?

GIBSON: All right. Let me stop this...

GIULIANI: I could go on and on. The attack on Leon Klinghoffer.

Islamic terrorists have attacked us...

PAUL: You paint all Islamics...

GIULIANI: ... and our allies all over the world...

PAUL: ... the same way, and this is a dangerous thing...

(CROSSTALK)

ROMNEY: No, of course not.

GIBSON: Gentlemen...

PAUL: What you're doing is damaging our relationship by destroying our relationship with all Muslims. That's what you're doing.

GIULIANI: I do not.

(CROSSTALK)

THOMPSON: Charlie, you started it.

(LAUGHTER)

GIBSON: I did start it. Yes, I did.

GIULIANI: Charlie, you wanted a free-for-all.

It is important to make this point. Just the opposite, Ron. I have great respect for the Islamic religion. I have great respect for the Arab world, for the Middle East.

I think we should be closer to them. I think we should trade more with them. I think we should have cultural exchanges with them.

The overwhelming majority of the Islamic world...

PAUL: Why do we support their dictators, then? Why do we prop up all their dictators?

GIBSON: (inaudible)

GIULIANI: ... and on the evening of September 11, 2001, the day my city was attacked, I got on television, and I said to the people of my city, "We're not going to engage in group blame. This is a small group of people. This does not typify a great religion and a great people."

GIULIANI: I do not accept that criticism.

(CROSSTALK)

GIBSON: I'm going to move on to domestic policy. And I'm going to violate a promise that I made to all of your campaigns.

I promised that we wouldn't do any questions on video tape, questions from somebody outside this room. But I'm going to violate it with a question from the president of the United States, who posed a question that I think is important about all of you, posed a question at his last news conference about what he thought candidates ought to be as they ran.

GIBSON: Take a look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

BUSH: You can't be the president unless you have a firm set of principles to guide you as you sort through all the problems the world faces.

And I would be very hesitant to support somebody who relied upon opinion polls and focus groups to define a way forward for a president.

It is -- and so, my question, if I were asking questions to people running for office, what are the principles that you will stand on, in good times and bad times? What would be the underpinning of your decisions?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GIBSON: What are the principles, and are they constant?

GIBSON: You all have been questioning, as I've watched you campaign, you've all been questioning your opponents.

And I'm going to ask, Senator McCain, you and Governor Romney, because you two have been going at each other, in interviews and in ads about this, of the constancy of your principles or whether or not you look to opinion polls and focus groups to make up your minds.

So let me have the two of you dialogue with each other about this and answer the president's questions, and then I'll bring the other four in and give them equal time.

MCCAIN: The principles and philosophy that I hold, I have held since I raised my hand at age 17 as a midshipman at the United States Naval Academy to uphold this nation's honor; to serve it; call Americans to sacrifice and serve for their nation and defend the greatest nation in the history of the world.

Now we need to restore trust and confidence in government. Now we are in a titanic, transcendent struggle of the 21st century, which we have been discussing earlier.

MCCAIN: I believe that for the last 20 years, I've been engaged in every major national security issue that has affected this nation. And I have been involved in many of the decisions as to how those are handled.

And I again say that I'm glad to know that now everybody supported the surge.

I said at the time that General Petraeus and his strategy must be employed, and I was criticized by Republicans at that time. And that was a low point, but I stuck to it. I didn't change. I didn't say we needed a secret plan for withdrawal.

I said that we can prevail, and as General Petraeus has said, this is the central front in the battle against radical Islamic extremists. We are succeeding.

And I will believe that if we had done what the Democrats had wanted to do, Al Qaida would be trumpeting to the world that they defeated the United States of America.

So my principles and my philosophy are those embodied in those words that we believe that all of us are created equal and endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights.

MCCAIN: I will defend those. I believe in them. And I believe America's best days are ahead of us.

ROMNEY: Charlie, when I sat down with my family and had the discussion about whether or not to get into this race, we went around the room and each one of my five sons and five daughters-in-law expressed their views. And it's because of them and because of my concern about the future of America that I'm in this race.

I'm convinced that America is the greatest nation on Earth, that we are a good nation and a strong nation. And we are safe and prosperous in part because of our greatness and our strength.

I'm concerned, though, right now, we face challenges of such an unprecedented nature that unless we deal with them honestly and effectively, America will become less of a nation than it needs to be to preserve the peace here and the peace around the world.

ROMNEY: And I believe it's essential for America to stand for principles of an eternal nature.

Related

WATCH: VIDEO: Political Plays of the Day

Candidate Bios, Pictures and Favorite Things

I think at the heart of our strength is the family. I don't think there's anything more important to the future of America than the work that's going on within the four walls of the American home.

I think we have to strengthen America's families. I think we have to have good schools and good health care for them, moms and dads tending to the needs of kids, that we have to have better schools and better health care.

I believe, also, that this nation has to have a strong and vibrant economy. I don't think we can lead the world unless we have the leading economy. And finally a strong military to keep us safe.

So, my overriding principle is keeping America the strongest nation on earth. And there'll be a lot of choices and pulls and tugs in different directions, but keeping America strong through all those elements, through our families and our values, through our economy and its vibrancy, and through our military, is what is essential to me for the future of this land.

GIBSON: All right. Let me turn to Mayor Giuliani.

I must say, you don't sound like two guys who've been sniping at one another over and over in your ads and interviews.

(LAUGHTER)

You sound different.

Mayor Giuliani?

GIULIANI: I think what the president had in mind is that at the core of leadership is knowing what you believe, standing for something.

Ronald Reagan was my hero in that respect. I wrote about it in my book, "Leadership." And I think one of the things President Bush was getting at is that too many people in politics today put their finger up and go with the poll.

You know, you can see it in some of our Democratic colleagues, changing their position...

GIBSON: But let me interrupt you for...

GIULIANI: What do I stand for?

I laid out 12 commitments to the American people. I wrote them out. The first one is the most important: keeping this country on offense in the Islamic terrorist war against us.

The rest of them lay out what I believe this country has to do over the next four years. That would be my guidepost. If I'm elected president, I'll put that card on my desk. And every day I will try to accomplish it.

End illegal immigration. Solve health care through private options. Reduce taxes. Reduce the size of government on the civilian side.

GIULIANI: Expand the military. Appoint strict constructionist judges.

These'll be the beliefs that I have, the way Ronald Reagan got elected to increase the size of the military, to reduce taxes.

GIBSON: Let me interrupt you for just a sec, because, with all due respect, many of your fellows here on this stage have said you'd had to moderate an awful lot of your views to get within the mainstream of the Republican Party, and that you don't believe now what you believed when you were a mayor.

Governor Huckabee, you've been accused of having been a tax-and- spend governor when you were in Arkansas and changing your beliefs now.

Governor Romney, I don't have to go into how many times they've told -- called you a flip-flopper in terms of issues and what you believed as governor of Massachusetts.

Congressman Paul, with respect to you, I don't know that you've changed much, except your party...

(LAUGHTER)

... because you were a Libertarian when you first ran for president.

Senator Thompson has been accused of running on a more conservative record for president than when he was in the Senate.

And, Senator McCain, you've been accused of moderating your views on the Bush tax policies in order to get into the mainstream of the party and on immigration, to moderate your views.

GIULIANI: Charlie, that's the reason why you lay out the things that you believe in.

GIULIANI: There are beliefs that you have that you're not going to vary from, no matter what the winds of change bring about. There are some that you are going to change.

Look at Ronald Reagan. Ronald Reagan had three prime goals: to increase the size of the military to win the Cold War, to reduce taxes and to reduce the deficit. He accomplished two of the three. The third one he wasn't able to accomplish, probably because the first two, in his view, were more important.

So of course you can't accomplish every single thing that you want. Over a period of time, your views on things are going to change. But if your essential philosophy stays the same, the way it did with Ronald Reagan, the way it did with our great presidents, that's what leadership is about.

GIBSON: Governor Huckabee?

HUCKABEE: Well, Charlie, I think the question the president was asking was not as much about our policies, because those can change with each generation, with each year, with each circumstances, but the principles -- what is it that's deep inside of us, that guide us, that direct us, that show the framework of what we're going to do?

And I think the simple answer for me is all the way back to the document that gave us birth.

HUCKABEE: And it goes like this: That we hold these truths to be self-evident, that we are endowed by our creator with certain inalienable rights, these being life, liberty, and the pursuit of happiness, that we are created equal.

In that sense of equality, the greatest principle is that every human being and every American is equal to each other. One person is not more equal because of his net worth or because of his I.Q. or because of his ancestry or last name.

That was a radical idea when those 56 signers put their names on that document, knowing that if their experiment in government didn't work, they were going to die for it.

Those are principles. Those are things that you'll live for, you'll die for. That sense that all of us have an essence of equality and that the primary purpose of a government is to recognize that those rights did not come from government, they came from God, they are to be protected, and then defined as the right to a life, the right to liberty -- our freedom -- to live our lives like we want to live them without government telling us how to do it. And ultimately, not to be happy, but to have the pursuit of happiness. That's our principles.

GIBSON: And I take your statement. It is an interesting statement of the basis that we all believe in this country.

GIBSON: But you started by saying: But we can change our policies -- -- how often did you say?

HUCKABEE: Our policies often reflect what's going on at the time. For example, if the primary thing we are facing is war, then we're going to be talking about military size and military might. If we have a problem with illegal immigration, the number one issue right now might be securing the borders.

I'm not saying we change our positions, but we change the policies in terms of the priority, but those principles don't change. The principles are still to make sure that we recognize the equality of each other and that we recognize where those rights come from and what those rights are.

GIBSON: Senator Thompson?

THOMPSON: Everyone has kind of a wish list. I think it's most important, though, that a president of the United States understand that our principles, our first principles are based on the Constitution of the United States -- understanding the nature of our government, the checks and the balances, the separation of powers that our founding fathers set up a long time ago.

THOMPSON: There's a reason for that. They knew about human nature. They learned from the wisdom of the ages.

They set the government up according to that. They set the powers out in the Constitution of the federal government, and they basically said if the powers aren't delineated in this document they don't exist.

And then we got the 10th Amendment that says if they're not delineated they belong to the people and to the states.

That's fundamental to everything else.

And then we grew from that, principles such as a dollar belongs in the pocket of the person that earned it, unless the government can make a case that it can spend it better. You don't spend money that you don't have, and you certainly don't spend your grandchildren's money with debt that they're not at the table when the decision has been made to spend it.

GIBSON: I'm going to run out of time on this, but I want to come back to that point.

Go ahead.

PAUL: The president asks a very important question. And we should all come together and we shouldn't have that many disagreements, because we should be bound -- bound by the Constitution.

But the people in this country think we live in an age of relative ethics, is what they have come to the conclusion of.

Sure, profess to believe in the Constitution, but why have we gone to war since World War II without a declaration of war? Why do we have a monetary system that is not designed by the Constitution? Why do we have a welfare state running out of control, not designed by the Constitution?

You can't pay lip service to the Constitution without obeying it.

And we should have peace and prosperity. That should be our goal.

We, in foreign policy, ought to have a golden rule. We ought to treat others as we would want others to treat us. And we don't treat others so fairly. We treat them like we're the bully, that we're the policeman of the world, and we're going to tell them to behave.

PAUL: If we don't -- if they don't listen to us, we bomb them. If they listen to us, we give them more money. And it's bankrupting this country because we don't live up to our principles, the principles that are embedded in our Constitution.

(APPLAUSE)

GIBSON: Let me turn for the next few moments to health care.

The Democrats have talked a lot about this, and they have spelled out some pretty specific health care plans.

But what you propose, what you have talked about in terms of health care, in many ways represents a more basic change in the way health insurance would be obtained.

A little background on that, ABC's medical editor, Dr. Tim Johnson.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DR. TIM JOHNSON, ABC MEDICAL EDITOR: In general, Republicans have criticized Democratic proposals for health care reform as radical expansions of the federal government's role.

But many health care experts say that it is actually the Republicans' emphasis on individuals buying their own policies versus getting their insurance through employers that is a more radical change.

JOHNSON: And it raises concerns. Individual policies can be more expensive for the same coverage because of administrative overhead and sales costs.

Group policies like those provided by employers can bargain with providers for lower costs and do a better job of monitoring quality.

Medical professionals caution that individual insurance may sound good on paper but it usually turns out to be very difficult for people, on their own, to find quality policies at the right cost.

Charlie?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

GIBSON: All right. Dr. Tim Johnson, thanks very much.

We're the only industrialized nation in the world that doesn't insure all of our citizens. If we can afford a trillion-dollar war in Iraq, why can't we afford medical insurance for everybody?

Governor -- Mayor -- Mr. Mayor?

GIULIANI: The reality is that, with all of its infirmities and difficulties, we have the best health care system in the world. And it may be because we have a system that still is, if not wholly, at least in large part still private.

To go in the direction that the Democrats want to go, much more government care, much more government medicine, socialized medicine, is going to mean a deteriorated state of medicine in this country.

GIULIANI: I mean, I said, jokingly, in one debate, if we go in the direction of socialized medicine, where will Canadians come for health care?

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

GIBSON: But do you all agree that we have the best health care system in the world?

MCCAIN: Now, tell me when people get sick where they come to to get health care.

(CROSSTALK)

THOMPSON: We certainly have the best health care in the world.

(CROSSTALK)

GIULIANI: Charlie, that doesn't mean it shouldn't be improved. And I think that the notion of people buying their own private health insurance is a very good one, so long as a lot of them do it.

Only 17 million Americans right now buy their own health insurance. If 50 million Americans were buying their own health insurance, because it would be just as tax advantageous to do it that way, and we had a health savings account, people -- economists believe there'd be a 30 percent to 50 percent reduction in the cost of health insurance, and quality would come up.

The only thing that reduces cost and increases quality is a significant, dramatic, large consumer market, not government control.

GIBSON: You all have proposed free market, consumer-purchased insurance. And you all talk about giving tax deductions for buying insurance.

Let me do a little math. The average family employer-provided insurance, when the company's buying, it's $13,000 a family.

Now, you talked about a $15,000 to $20,000 deduction -- right? -- for people buying their own insurance. If you take a median-income family of $62,000 in this country, you've just saved them $3,000 on their taxes. That doesn't come close to buying an insurance policy.

MCCAIN: Sure. And next year, if you continue 10 percent inflation associated with it, it'll be even further away. And the next year after that.

Because the problem with health care in America, it's not the quality. It is the inflation.

And in all due respect to your expert that we just saw, he's talking about the wrong aspect of this issue. The right aspect of this issue is inflation, if we could get it under control and get it reduced so that health care costs are reasonable in America, then those people will be able to afford it.

GIBSON: And to get health care costs...

MCCAIN: And they can -- and they will be able to go out and choose their insurer, anywhere in America, and they will be able to then to get affordable health care in America.

But we have to make the recipient of the health care more responsible. We have to have outcome-based results for health care. We have to emphasize wellness and fitness.

One of the most disturbing things in America is the increase in diabetes, obesity and high blood pressure amongst younger Americans. So we have to award wellness and fitness.

HUCKABEE (?): Charlie, I'm...

MCCAIN: And that way, we'll have a healthier nation and we will have less health care costs.

But, again, you made a statement about European nations, they all get health care. Well, some people here in New Hampshire have been to Canada. I don't think they want that system.

ROMNEY: A lot of people have ideas about health care and improving health care. We took the ideas and actually made them work in our state, as people in New Hampshire know. We put in place a plan that gets every citizen in our state health insurance, and it didn't cost us new money. And it didn't require us to raise taxes.

What we found was, it was less expensive or no more expensive to help individuals who had been uninsured by their own private policy than it had been for us to give out free care at the hospital.

And since we put our plan in place last April, we've now had 300,000 people who were uninsured sign up for this insurance, private insurance.

And where the doctor -- good doctor was wrong is that it's true the insurance companies don't want to sell policies to one person at a time. It's expensive.

We established what we called a connector, a place where individuals could go to buy policies from any company, and that connector would in turn send their premiums on to those companies.

So the economics of scale existed. And as a result of what we did, the premiums for health insurance for an individual buying insurance went from $350 a month to $180 a month, with lower deductibles and now with prescription drugs.

ROMNEY: The answer...

GIBSON: Anybody...

ROMNEY: Let me just -- I just -- I want to underline this.

We don't have to have government take over health care to get everybody insured. That's what the Democrats keep on hanging out there.

The truth is, we can get everybody insured in a free market way. We don't need Hillary-care or socialized medicine.

PAUL: Charlie, you really answered the question -- you answered it in your question, because you said, "How can we afford a trillion- dollar war and we can't afford health care?"

Well, that's the reason.

The resources are going overseas. We're fighting a trillion- dollar war and we shouldn't be doing it. Those resources should be spent back here at home.

There is an inflationary factor. We can't afford it. We do have good medical care, but the costs are so high now that our people in this country are actually going to India and getting their heart surgery done.

PAUL: They pay the plane ticket, the hospital and the hotel and they get it for half-price.

So it's inflation, but if you don't understand how inflation comes, we can't solve this problem. It comes from deficit financing with this war-mongering foreign policy we have. We run up the deficits. We tax. We borrow. We borrow from the Chinese. We can't borrow enough.

Then what do we do? We print the money, and then you wonder where the inflation comes. The value of the dollar is down and the prices go up, where the government gets involved in certain things like housing or medical care or education, prices are skyrocketing.

So you have to deal with the monetary issue to solve the problem of the medical issue.

GIBSON: Senator Thompson?

THOMPSON: Ahem.

(LAUGHTER)

PAUL: Don't print anymore money. We don't need anymore money.

THOMPSON: So if we would stop printing so much money, we could get out of the war and provide health care to everybody.

PAUL: Get out of the war, and we wouldn't have to print the money.

THOMPSON: OK. I just wanted to...

(CROSSTALK)

THOMPSON: I wanted to make sure I had this right.

(LAUGHTER)

THOMPSON: Let me break it down a little bit so I can understand it a little bit better.

PAUL (?): Keep trying.

THOMPSON: We've got the best health care in the world. It costs more than it should.

We can either go one of two ways.

We can let the government take it over, and that'll lower costs, like they do in other countries. We will also sacrifice care, which nobody wants to do -- we're not going to do, in this country.

Or we can make the markets work more efficiently. There are a lot of components to that. Part of that is not just giving a tax break to the individual. That's part of it. But it's also putting them in a position to get the best prices for the care they're getting.

We do that in every other aspect of our life. That's what keeps prices as low as they are.

THOMPSON: I mean, if the consumer had no concept of what the product was costing and did no shopping for it, when you could get an MRI here for one price or over here for half the price, you don't even know that to make the choice. It wouldn't work at all.

So you can do that. You can open up these markets so a person can buy their insurance from all over the country. We've got various state regulations now, that, as a practical matter, prohibit that. Make the markets work.

But we're never -- let's be honest with the people. We're probably never -- if you lower costs, more people who want insurance will be able to afford it. We're probably never going to achieve total coverage.

A good number of the people who are uninsured can afford it and choose not to do so. A good number of people who are eligible for government assistance, and choose -- can manage and choose not to.

GIBSON: But Government Romney's system has mandates in Massachusetts, although you backed away from mandates on a national basis.

ROMNEY: No, no, I like mandates. The mandates work.

THOMPSON: I beg your pardon? I didn't know you were going to admit that. You like mandates.

ROMNEY: Let me -- let me -- oh, absolutely. Let me tell you what kind of mandates I like, Fred, which is this. If it weren't...

THOMPSON: The ones you come up with.

(LAUGHTER)

ROMNEY: Here's my view: If somebody -- if somebody can afford insurance and decides not to buy it, and then they get sick, they ought to pay their own way, as opposed to expect the government to pay their way.

ROMNEY: And that's an American principle. That's a principle of personal responsibility.

So, I said this: If you can afford to buy insurance, then buy it. You don't have to, if you don't want to buy it, but then you got to put enough money aside that you can pay your own way, because what we're not going to do is say, as we saw more and more people...

GIBSON: Governor, (inaudible) you imposed tax penalties in Massachusetts (inaudible).

ROMNEY: Yes, we said, look, if people can afford to buy it, either buy the insurance or pay your own way; don't be free-riders and pass on the cost to your health care to everybody else, because right now...

THOMPSON: The government is going to make you buy insurance...

ROMNEY: No, the government is going to stop...

THOMPSON: ,.. and make you pay -- I mean, the state -- your state plan, which is, of course, different from your national plan, did require people to make that choice, though. The state required them to do that.

What was the penalty if they refused?

ROMNEY: They refused to pay your -- let's go back, Fred. What's your view? If somebody...

THOMPSON: Well, I asked the question first.

(LAUGHTER)

ROMNEY: OK. Well, I'll answer your question, you answer mine.

ROMNEY: If somebody is making, let's say $100,000 a year, and doesn't have health insurance, and they show up at the hospital, and they need a $1,000 repair of some kind for something that's gone wrong. And they say, "Look, I'm not insured, I'm not going to pay." Do you think they should pay or not?

THOMPSON: Did your plan cut people off at $100,000? Was that the level?

ROMNEY: No, actually...

THOMPSON: Did it only apply to people with $100,000 income and over?

ROMNEY: It actually applies to people at three-times federal poverty. They pay for their own policy. At less than three-times federal poverty, we help them buy a policy, so everybody is insured, and everybody is able to buy a policy that is affordable for them.

The question is this, again, if someone could afford a policy and they choose not to buy it, should they be responsible for paying for their own care?

Or should they be able to go to the hospital and say, "You know what? I'm not insured. You ought to pay for it."

What we found was, one-quarter of the uninsured in my state were making $75,000 a year or more. And my view is they should either buy insurance or they should pay their own way with a health savings account or some other savings account.