Transcript: Kerry, Hatch

SEBELIUS: The best possible legacy is to pass health reform this year and have a bill that President Obama could sign. And hopefully at every step along the way, they'll ask themselves what would Teddy do? And move it forward.

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STEPHANOPOULOS: But, Senator Kerry, there already is a big debate over what would Teddy do. I mean, I think a lot of liberals and progressives saying he would fight for this public health insurance option and, you know, if that -- if you didn't have that, it wasn't worth doing.

Others look at it, and I think you may be one of them who say, no, the lesson of Senator is that he got what he could get, the perfect couldn't be the enemy of the good.

KERRY: Well, Ted would put facts on the table and he would put the reality of life for a lot of Americans on the table. And the reality of life is that we have over 87 million Americans every year during some portion of the year who don't have insurance. And almost 50 million who all of the time don't have insurance.

It costs them and costs America an enormous amount of money. We are not managing an efficient health care system. And so we are delivering worse health care for more money than many other nations in the world.

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Now Orrin knows that. We know we can do a better job of providing health care to Americans. And what Teddy would do is he would fight for that public option, because he believes -- believed that the public option, as I do, is an effective -- the best way possible to be able to reduce the...

STEPHANOPOULOS: But he could count votes as well...

KERRY: Now let me just finish...

STEPHANOPOULOS: ... and the votes don't seem to be there.

KERRY: Let me just finish. Let me finish. He would fight for it, and he would do everything in his power to get it, just like he did for the minimum wage or like he did for children's health care, et cetera. But if he didn't see the ability to be able to get it done, he would not throw the baby out with the bathwater. He would not say no to anything because we have to reduce the cost. We have to make these changes. And he would find the best way forward.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So he wouldn't agree with those like Howard Dean who say it's not worth doing if you don't have the public health insurance option?

KERRY: I think there is an enormous amount, George -- oh, here is what Teddy would do. He would say, I'm going to fight the fight, and if and when we get to the point that we can't get there, we'll see whether or not we can do enough to make good happen out of this.

And you can't make that measurement today. We have to go down that road.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You said, earlier this year, Senator Hatch, that Senator Kennedy was really missed in the negotiations, because of his ability to speak to progressives and reach out to Republicans.

What about going forward right now? Who can fill that void and is there a deal to be had here?

HATCH: One thing that Kennedy had, he could bring together all of the base groups of the Democratic Party. They wouldn't take him on once he made up his mind. And as somebody who over the last 33 years passed almost every health care bill that works, many of them with Ted Kennedy, in fact, most of them with Ted Kennedy.

Everything from orphan drugs to the three AIDS bills to the CHIP bill, you can just name it, you know, even people with disabilities. I mean, we worked on all of those together.

In every case, he fought as hard as he could, like John has said here, but when he recognized that, you know, he couldn't get everything that he wanted, but he could get a good bill by working with the other side. And making through compromise, he would always come through.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Did you think he would move in that direction now?

HATCH: I have no doubt about it. I mean, if he was here...

STEPHANOPOULOS: Is it doable now?

HATCH: ... I don't think we'd be in the mess we're in right now. And look, Ted was the leading liberal in the Senate -- in the whole Congress, as far as I'm concerned. And others come very close to him, like John here.

I mean, very good people, but you know, let's be honest about it, the people out there are very concerned. They don't want a Washington-run government plan, it's just that simple. And I think that is showing up everywhere throughout America. When Medicare is $38 trillion in unfunded liability, and then they want to take $400 billion or $500 billion out of Medicare, I mean, come on, this doesn't make sense. And Teddy would have recognized that.

And look, I -- we used to get in tremendous fights, he and I, but we would always come together in the end. And it was always because both of us were willing to go to the center. And sometimes he would go to the center-right.