AMANPOUR: What will happen when Congress comes back in lame-duck? What will happen with this tax battle...
PENCE: Before we get -- look, David Stockman is, you know, he's a really famous guy and a thoughtful guy. I just disagree with him vehemently and I, frankly, have for about 30 years. David believes that every tax increase equals a revenue increase, but that's not true. Anybody who is familiar with the historical data from the IRS knows that raising income tax rates will likely actually reduce federal revenues.
AMANPOUR: Let me ask David...
PENCE: So if we raise taxes, the American people are very likely going to -- the top 1 percent are going to send less money to Washington, D.C., and that will never get us out of this...
STOCKMAN: I just have to respectfully disagree. You will have some loss of revenue because some activity or transactions won't happen, but if you raise taxes on paper by $100 billion, maybe you'll get $90 billion or $85 billion. But it's just common sense fact that, when you raise the rates, you get more revenue. Normally, it's a bad thing to do. But we are in such dire shape that we have no choice but to accept the negative trade-off of some harm to the economy to start paying our bills. Otherwise, we're dependent on the Chinese, we're dependent on OPEC, we're dependent on a bunch of hedge fund guys to buy our debt, and this game is about over.
AMANPOUR: And, Congressman Pence, you talked a lot about the...
PENCE: Raising income tax rates on the top 1 percent will not increase revenues to the federal treasury.
AMANPOUR: Well, not -- not according to -- to the budget director, who is the architect of the biggest, most sweeping tax cuts in American history. But the question I have for you is, what about all that -- you know, you all talk about the middle class. But the middle class, we've seen their incomes stagnant, whereas the huge amount of wealth has been accumulated by a very, very small top percent. It's not fair, is it? Is it?
PENCE: Well, look -- look, what's not fair is the idea that, at a time when tens of millions of Americans are unemployed or underemployed, that you would actually allow a tax increase on job-creators, a tax increase on their employees. I don't know anybody back in Indiana, in the city or on the farm, who thinks that raising taxes on their small business owner boss is going to put them back to work or get them back to full-time.
AMANPOUR: We've got one -- time for...
STOCKMAN: Two years after the crisis on Wall Street, it has been announced that bonuses this year will be $144 billion, the highest in history. That's who's going to get this tax cut on the top, you know, 2 percent of the population. They don't need a tax cut. They don't deserve it. And, therefore, what we have to do is focus on Main Street, and that means getting our house in order fiscally, not tax cuts that we can't afford.
AMANPOUR: On that note, there's plenty to talk about, and we're going to see it develop in Congress pretty shortly all of this. David Stockman, Mike Pence, thank you so much, indeed, for joining us.
STOCKMAN: Thank you.
AMANPOUR: And the roundtable will be up next and looking back 50 years to another historic election. Stay with us.