Transcript for Son of convicted terrorist struggles to find empathy for his father
Hi everyone I'm on an advise welcome to another episode of uncomfortable the goal here is to have a honest and unflinching conversations about some of the things that seemed to be dividing America. Right now we like to figure out with a one on one guest every week not just what they believe but also why they believe what they do. So I'm very pleased to introduce our guest this week. He sack effort came joins us live in studio thanks for being here thank you for having me so it's impossible to tell. You're story. Without first telling the story of your father in very short summary and well your dad was saved us there. He was notorious for all the wrong reasons because he was the basically the first. It is Muslim terrorists to commit murder and US right back in 1990 yes. And U seven years old at the time he was leader also convicted as a co conspirator in the 1993. World Trade Center bombing. This cripple more or more accurately he was convicted in the landmark bombing trial for of the plot to bomb several landmarks around New York City but he is involved with all of the men who were also involved in them to portraits of. And we should clever I ran off the top you have since. Rejected. All the ideals upon which your father conducted those actions you now have written a book about a you preach. And do a lot of talking and speaking about tolerance and peace and that the context in which even by these two years in separate incidents. So as imagine we like to talk about sort of how people come to believe whatever it is they believe to be true. For you that started very early in your childhood so tell me path that what was it like. To grow up being you. Can't give enough time. You know growing up. I had a relatively normal childhoods. You know we were Muslim families live growing you know being raised in America so I knew. We weren't your stereotypical. American family but for the most part we were you know pretty staple. My father was a very humorous Manning has a very loving man and never had any doubts that he'd love to my family. There really wasn't until. I see maybe year before he went to prison that. He started spending more time with the blind check from another man and and many of the men were involved in the bombing of the World Trade Center in 1993 in. He would often take me to the mosque in Brooklyn where the plane should expo couldn't. In a just became. I think more impatient quick and anger. He was very fresh traded I think buying American foreign policy particularly in the Middle East especially being from Egypt. Where he was born and raised I mean. Unfortunately the United States a very long history of supporting some pretty terrible dictators and under the guise of democracy in the Middle East Hosni Mubarak being an example that the present former president of Egypt. And her mother was. Born and raised in each yes he came in to the states as an adult as a young man correct and became a citizen. Right and you and your siblings were born in race here current. And am. So Q I mean this is all very yeah you all that you are very young when a lot of this happened. We were aware of your father's beliefs that young and panicking when I'm nice and you really know what people stand forth sometimes it just doesn't process that your whole world view is really just. Sort of constructed around your parents. Absolutely you know when your being talked the things that your top player parents who don't ask if it's right around you just assuming parents have your best interest at heart and I. You know for that year before he went to prison he was taking me to the shooting range which was beings are mailed by the FBI. With the other man and and teaching me how to fight presumably with the intention of going to Afghanistan or or somewhere else to fight to when they would've considered infidels. And you know just in general. Having mean be around men like the playing Shea who advocated for violence against western society and and and and really anyone who didn't fit into a very narrow idea of what it meant to them. To be a good most what was that idea specifically what for you time. Senior. Hatred of of basically anyone who didn't believe in the exact same. Kind of extremist tenants. This this interpretation of Islam that they all followed. That Jews were the enemy. You know key people or noxious evil what they were actively trying to make me evils that I would go to hell with them I mean just those kinds of those kinds of us. Where those things. I'm just curious how those came about the aegis take you to the mosque and much she listened to it in and Jordan where they explicit lessons that were passed down like what was the sort of the places significance of feminist congress. A lot of it was at the mosque. You know a lot of times I would. To sit there quietly while the panel Saturn circle in and had discussions about. You know. Ten American foreign policy or even religious interpretation. A lot of it was an Arabic. And my average is not that strong and it's six and seven year old in the US so. You know often times when he would wake me up for the first prayer in the morning for fracture prayer. After prairie would sit down and tried to extol ideas. Where you I mean you're so young at that point that we you allowed to question him was just the thing that was sort of we can talk about cancer was at all the information Richard coming one way I never really felt like quay was. Trying to force it on me but when you're that young I'm actually need it to be forced on me just kind of brain. Take what your parents teach children and accepted as truth. Right I mean normally is what is defined as around to actually heard of before the age for Easter questioning everything to your parents present to you. I'm really look at touch him. Because what I've read about her fascinates me she was contrary to human rights and raised in Pennsylvania. That it's prepared and then later converted to a sperm and then met and married your father very soon after. I thought was her role in your family. While she she converted to a slam in her early twenties and she was born and raised Catholic can in Pittsburgh and it's basically lost her faith actually she would tell me this story all the time about how. She went to her priest and and was asking questions about the trinity shooting quite understand how the trinity worked through every time he gave for an answer she had another question until he got so frustrated that he test. Yelled at her if you can't believe they knew of no faith at all she said she left the church of that day knowing that she was no longer Catholic. I'm so she began this journey trying to find some ideology that fit with the way she saw the world and she says she found an old dusty book and Carnegie library. About Islam and starter reading and and that led her to the mosque in Pittsburgh. Room where she actually. Met my father the night that she converted to Islam. She was in the process of learning about the religion and considering conversion for a few months and in. The night that she was going to say this year had declaration of faith. They asked her if you wouldn't mind going upstairs in sanction it and from prayer study that story on the she was nervous but she century earn. She went upstairs and she locked eyes with this man she says very green news and just looked so egyptians and separation Haddon. You know went home a few days later she got a phone call from her friend semi who have been helping her through this whole process is and that one of the men from the purse that he. Would like to get together with you and see if you'd be interest in marriage and there's not a whole lot of stating that goes on rankings that meet together chaperone a few times in. Decide if we want to make ago so that's what they did they map and decided they were trying to be merry and I think a few weeks when they were. Year did your mother ever tell you I've ever talked to her. About what it lies about Islam that drew her in I didn't athletes in the context of the things that your father than. Leader in gage amateur show contrary to so many of the court tenants and I wonder how that has set itself up in your family dynamic but did you ever talk to her about that. I had heard it I. I have you know she she converted to shoot it just it seemed to make sense stare and one of the experiences she tells her about all the time is. Before she even really knew anything about Islam. But she knew she was no longer Catholic she wanted to. Pray to god and she wasn't exactly sure how to do you thought to myself well first law have to be cleaned so she went and took a shower. And came accountant and sure called the nuns in her Catholic school of oral Covert operation you know should be covered up so she covered up most of her body. And and she cut down on her knees and and I started to pray and when she read about Islam and how you're supposed to pray. She was shocked she saw so so many similarities to how she naturally thought one should be connected to god and and the process in which Muslims pray to god I think that was probably one of the things that really stuck efforts seem. Fortuitous or. Sign from a greater you know power perhaps you know I think that's kind of worker to a and when she went to the mosque she says she was so surprised my idea sister. Who she had from a previous marriage. We went with her to the mosque what you wanna to acquire about Islam and she said the man just laughed. My sister and she said it was so contrary to stereotypes that you hear about most of men being like tough. Guys who are just very stoic can. She said they were like little kids just loved playing with her and that was something that endeared her very much to the community and I think that's. Those things are had a lot to do it why she became most. You and I should also mention you've written a book about your life story. And he you've talked a lot about the details of what it was like you grow up with your father and and and how things kind of unfolded in front if you. When you're seven years old. In 1990 is when things really start to come to a head to some degree that's the year that. You're father. Murders. Answered ultra nationalist. Rabbi whose founder of the Jewish defense leak. And you find out about it in the most. Bizarre way I just can't even imagine its having your soul this kind of unfolding before you could tell me that's rain what it was like at that time for. Well the night of the assassination I was asleep. In bed and my mother I remember her coming rushing into the room and waking up and going to my Dresser graphic moment. Close out of sentencing significant uplift ago. And I had no deals going on but it. I carried whatever she threw my arms down stairs and actually fell back asleep waiting for my uncle to come pick us up she basically said my father have been an accident. And that was she yes. And that he was also injured in the US he was actually shot trying to flee. And and he in mark on or anxious the same hospital Bellevue hospital. And Connor died that night. So when my uncle that there. He took us to his apartment in Brooklyn and by the time we got there authority to detectives waiting at his apartment he my father worked. In in New York City in an for the sit so in order to do that he had to leave and one of the Five Boroughs and Hubert for the yes he he was an air conditioning. Maintenance repairman he was educated as an engineer but when we moved to New Jersey. Miami. Malcolm the government job initially as an electrician and his working for the city. I'm but but in order to do that he had to have an actress who won the Five Boroughs he used my uncles address in Brooklyn. So there were detectives waiting at his apartment when we got there. And and actually the first few days my mother didn't really tell me happen beyond that it was just an accident and she went to see my father in the hospital that night thinking he was going to die that's. She heard that's how she found I mean to me how she found out was so much more. Shocking than I did she was sitting at home while I was asleep and had. Watching television and what do Russia Russia is watching was interrupted by breaking news saying that. Meyer Kahn had been shot and so at his assailant an either or expected to live and they cut to footage of my father covered in blood being put into an ambulance and this was her introduction to. This ideology them. My father has taken out before that had she ever come into contact with anything else because obviously your father but having these conversations with engaging a lot of this. You know ideology and in at least it conversational way am I attending the mosque he was high associating himself with the people. He was I mean his mentor I think you mentioned. Kind of someone of a mentor to him was later went on to human of the founders of kindness and was she aware of any well this was. The you know the Levy these early ninety's so the Afghan war was. Coming to an end or close to it and my father very much wanted to go to Afghanistan defied witnesses where. Muslims from all over the world were going to fight. The Communist infidels and to. Yes absolutely. And my father that was presented this thinking noble and good thing actually well even even among Americans this wasn't something counter to you know American ideals are fighting the Russians in Afghanistan or secretly doing it. Offer for some time. I'm so wasn't counter to my mother's American ideals. But nevertheless she actually did not want father going to fight in this war. As as any white wooden and my grandfather actually came to the US the summer before the assassination. He thought to visit but it was actually some topic try to convince him. To take my family Egypt that is my grandfather would take service on my father went to Afghanistan to fight and my grandfather says absolutely not if your enemy to had stay here to care if him. And I think because that option was caught off to him he decided he was going to find some other ways to contribute to this battle seesawed between Islam and non Muslims and so this was the path he took. The context of macular growing up now because you're an American kid. These are the conversations you're having read your father. And home in the mosque and the shooting range as you mentioned and then you go to school presumably. Where this is not what your being tied it's basically. Contradictory to hot and lessons you learn in elementary and middle school at that age. So how did you could even at the LK that past and present some kind of this inventory write how we sort of reconciling. Why I think. You know growing up. With any culture or any religion that isn't perceived as normal in the United States are constantly trying to find a line between. In any ER parents' culture and their religion which are raised and being an American and American culture. You know that was difficult for me but I think it's difficult for anyone who. Who doesn't fit into a very traditional idea what it means to be American. You know for me. It's amazing what it's the arrogance of thinking your better than everybody else can do to them. To build a wall between you and people you've made interact with every day and me class and I. Interactive. Than your average American kids in. But in the back of my mind well me or not must mean not my kind of must so atlas. It was easy to be it's always he's appeared and think and I think he'd carry that arrogance around me short in the back in my hand were taught to view everybody else. Less than you absolutely. And and it wasn't really until. In a lot of ways when my father went to prison. It is the fact that he he was Korea rejects. You know we've visited him for many years at Rikers Island fanatic and upstate new York and we talked on the phone every week and and but eventually. Those conversations just became very repetitive and I was going through so much when. When he went to prison I was going to public school in cliffside park Rangers happens. They made it pretty clear that they lost comeback and the school yes and the community in general and we left our house that night and never came back at whatever can carry enhancement we have. If you leave behind friends or neighbors fewer and currently fashionably. Did you ever talk to any you know militant and not just that you and now we left and and we were so afraid. I mean to her death threats coming from the JPL's. We have the FBI watching us while not until. Not until later initially was to stand like PD investigating my father for the assassination. But eventually you know the FBI was watching us and we come to our house every other year or so to Asians and ask us questions who were in contact with you know who we've. Who we've talked to we've been interacting with. And it always felt like an interrogation in and I never he never did anything. But. It's so up until that point mother's been telling you there's an accident the truck. When he realized that it was not now and it -- realize what you're. You know it's interesting because. I think with my mother trying to cope with. Her life basically falling apart she didn't. Ever sit me down and have day here all the facts conversation. It was something that I kind of start to pick up I remember. Being in my uncle's apartment and record and when the news would come on that would crush all kids. I remember. At a compromise seeing a picture of con on the television picture my father and not really knowing anything. And it was it's are not being ask me. But could you are ditched. Trying to do what they could've I don't know that she made it like she didn't want to talk about it but in a lot of she may have just in the interest of protecting me from you know this dramatic event. And it wasn't really until I went back to school my first day and a necessity the private school. A private Islamic school in New Jersey offered scholarships to myself siblings to go because we've been happening marks to go and my first day I walked into. My first grade class and every single student jumped up and surrounded me and started just throwing questions I mean I felt like. You know the scenes in the movies where. Criminals coming out of a courthouse with his lawyers and their press all around them and yelling questions at them and one can you know was yelling. Yeah did you father assessment on and I was I was like so. Shocked and uncomfortable by a testing confronted with the question I actually laughed at and even know it was just an awkward laugh and you cannot answer and so a lot of information about it secondhand through people who at her to answer that and and it was also hard because. There are people who some community didn't want my family fair game. And being associated with extremism. For a lot of religious pages don't want. And and there were other people who thought that it was their responsibility. To protect. My knees my father's family not because of what he'd done but just because they sauces is innocent victims in all of this. And then there were other people who are very proud of what my father had bought my first game boy with a hundred dollar bill that some hand to me because of my father it is there were a lot of mixed signals about. What's right and what's wrong again in. When this violence OK and when is it not and and my father declared his innocence for years to them before the World Trade Center bombing he maintained his innocence and my mother believed him and and I believed him and even in the back of my mind it up myself while Kahane as a bad person he was a terrorist he advocated for violence against. Arabs and Muslims. For no other reason than the fact that they were Arab foremost on. Members of the GPL had committed horrible acts of violence against innocent men women and children so there was a justification. In my mind for. Tell us even Canadians because he been steeped in this have been raised in this ideology even at that age are you thinking. My father may be that the right thing here. Absolutely and we went to Egypt at the summer after the assassination family. And you know we had armed protection by the Egyptian government or snipers on the rooftops around all the buildings of household personal lobbying. Truck of soldiers followed us everywhere he went to went appearance they gave us a private Torre who Estes very weird. You know them. Reference by some people for my father for what it is starkly different at the way he retreated at the and he absolutely and in this whose it was confusing to me but after. After the World Trade Center bombing that excuse of being a bad person was no longer possible they've targeted in this and people pregnant almost murdered by them. In the bombing. So that excuse couldn't work anymore. How old are you that I was ten years old during the bombing I was actually home sick from school I believe it was Friday. Could be mistaken I think it was apparently. And and many of the men who would eventually be involved in that bombing would often come Tor house to check on us and I think some of them felt it was their responsibility to protect. My family because my father had sacrificed himself for this for the school be. And and every Friday. Because I want to Protestant school they had Friday prayers there at the mosque and and I would seem from its the man who rented the Ryder truck that the bomb was put into you. And he would always make it a point Tacoma community on little tiny kid. Just check on me and to talk to me and these are your fathers tank these gentlemen you called uncle yeah well my uncle dream. I believe in my father or cousins he wasn't technically my mind legitimate uncle but you know in the Middle Eastern columnist article fresh. Yet so these were these are men who were. Who I think took it upon themselves just check on him it in relate to whole lot besides that but. Phillies ten years old went to each the line between this terrific thing you're seeing unfolding on TV screen. And the man who is your. I Utah connection. I'm not sure that I that I really could I knew the what what happened was wrong. I mean if there was no justification for and I knew that it was different from the assassination. But even you know. As I got older gorillas at there was no justification for either my asked myself what could came from. Connors assassination. You know unfortunately. His son and his son's wife and some of their children were killed and Israel for years later. His grandson was arrested for committing any crimes against Palestinians nothing changed. Nothing was made better. And and so eventually even the excuses that my young mind. Accepted realized they were you know it was unacceptable. Here this is the part that fascinates me knows a lot of people who. Eat in the unit limited or direct. Influence under your father because you were so young when he went to prison. How do you keep that sort of grounding in the possibility that all those things he learned early on could maybe not be true we did that come from without your mom was. With that exposure to the outside world but where does that come from. It was definitely. My mother always taught me. And a standard license. It's cover intricately want to be treated you know Adam. And it wasn't really until I began interacting with people that I've been taught these stereotypes about that are even stark question my father. Well my father taught in the first time I mean Jewish friends talk about it in the Balkans and I think even the net and I was at a youth convention. In Philadelphia Phillies at the time and sixteen and a -- it very very badly in school. Initially the it was just tension room. My father had gone in and you know kids to hold lotteries just believe. You know as a child be quiet kid in. I like to draw too much time and attention to myself and I think some people liked it. Felt it was easy to draw attention to means that to themselves. And so I was always getting into fights and news news. Very hard but. Essentially. It's Turner's hospital. Presently you're mentioning some of the people this is actually pretty certain fascinated me because the people that you came into contact with Internet Chal yes things that you had been tied. What struck me about the we've talked about it was. Really and I mean no offense but this just how mundane. And my boring those interactions or there is no big interfaith summit. Are all ram or some thing is to kid meeting her kids. And so I went to the city's convention and count to this panel use violence but something that was very passionate about because we've been believed some auction. And maybe three days into with this kid that it seems to have become very close with them and in as close you can in three days. We were walking around Philadelphia and any mention that he was too and it was like shocked me because analysts often. If Muslims and Jews were natural enemies enemies you know. It's never got along. And I was sixteen. And as the first person you'd ever considered to be different ideas I lived. Suction on staples life I mean I moved on average. Every nine months. I'd probably buy it and I'd been in. Maybe ten different schools. A lot of them private Islamic schools because my mother was a teacher and she moved where she could find work and often times these were private schools. And it was cheaper because there are so can other. An island of racial to liberals were very poor so violent and terrible neighborhoods and my mother in room like me being house title outside rebel Lawton and I didn't correct people. Too much. And so I find out that the skippers tuition and my first feeling I felt great sense of pride because I thought I'd done something that nobody had ever done before. You know which is of course ridiculous but when you wouldn't you know that sheltered you don't know any better. It's no value now not sleep not by then. Trying to think if it changed now hadn't changed my name by then buy it. And I think him in and that's very streams of things you forget along your life had changed her name I was born but as he's sentenced Serpa. Change trying to is accurate team. Those sixteen or seventeen to. Two separate identity from people and what is it like for you today just me any reports. I don't know Iowa I like my name it's it's the weird thing for me was always just getting used to Zack mean people would. Same an imminent and respond because it's so wasn't used to responding to order. In it. Yet just in it was a it was always weird for me just get used to mine in mining and impetus to show them. I don't know I don't feel weird about saying my own it is like talking about them via cement. Anxious to maybe. Younger me and tell. And how did you pick the named back. A woman nickname was Z because most people can't salmon as he's so good. So I want to keep my nickname thighs actor's second area. To say keep an Ecuadorian. That's as well you can look at. Website at a time Harry about how you you meet these friends users challenged everything you can tell when you were growing up. And that moment when that happens you know is that just like. Yet to shock America pledged that what is found there wasn't. It was. Like a little chink in the armor. For me it was the first hint that may be. What I believed was wrong. And and it snowballed from there each person and I. Interacted with who you know each type of our kind of person the first time in eight K friend. I was not nice to disperse. Yours may not it was and it wasn't so much like me no cursing at America for those kind of treating them like I was better than them and and this young man showed me kindness and zero recent. And because I'd been bullied so much in school was very familiar with what it was like to be treated poorly for things I had no control over either because of my father's actions because that was the new care because those quieter for whatever reason. I was so familiar with what it felt like to. Be believed that. It was like slapping myself in the face realizing that I was doing to this kid exactly what has been done me a thousand times and I didn't want to ever make anybody feel the way I had been made to feel and that's when I really have to start challenging. Myself and what I believed. And how I perceived people. Wouldn't that come from that's another thing that fascinates me because a lot of people who are bullied. We'll than just go on to bully other people like people who were taught to hate woman find a reason to hate other people how did you. At sixteen or seventeen find a reason to say. Wait maybe the things I held to be true. Archer. My life has stuck for so long. It was so heart. Always moving always being bullied and it wasn't just name calling those beatings constantly I mean every other day on average for ten years I was getting into a fight with somebody. And I never started one of them not once. And you're it took I was I was so tired it took so much energy to. Hate people who had done nothing to me. And had a conversation with my mother I said no. I don't. One and not like people because accurate or not like people because there K. And and she said to me. I'm tired of hitting people. And when she said that commute just clicked in my hat like it takes so much energy to heat people he's never met. I mean let alone you know people that you keep you interact. And patent. Two separate myself and kind people. Just seemed to it didn't make any sense to and you literally got tired of hitting people in. And and what she said that to me it was like she gave me permission to go out into the world and experienced people aren't encumbered by the purchases sides and top. And so that's what I did. I went out and started interacting tryst without judging people and and that kind of became my my me. My goal to. Meet as many kinds of people and interest to. If you were kind and I want to be different it was really that is and I and it was so much easier to reference. When you're not judging people because of color of skin or their religion and sexuality and apartments. Practice and in want to live in that world anymore it was so hard and and so much better on the other side I mean it so that pets. And I think they learn their honesty from being politically cassette I was so familiar with that feeling the for years and and I I refuse to perpetuated a distant one a do it and you know in it was the hardest thing of all the things have gone through polling was the hardest thing than ever had to deal with. But I think it taught me more about myself. And about how I should interact with the world than anything else. Meanwhile your father serving out a life's. You're in contact with him for a number of years -- right and then at the age at which you decide to change your name and cut off all ties he stopped contact. Spent the better part of a decade sooner so right yes did you re initiate contact that he reach out to you or you're in contact. Oh he reached out to me actually the first time I ever spoke. Publicly. Louis. I was on the cover of the Philadelphia Daily News. The morning that I was flying too. Texas a particular speech at a peace conference student peace alliances annual convention. I was within my mid twenties I think 26 may be something like that police haven't. We haven't spoken and consumers can it's yes and toes I think seventeen. And as he notes has mounted announcing in wolf that's the thing. Was on the cover of the daily news it was like all over the airport which was players because they said you might be on the cover and then. I'm in the airports o'clock in the morning and my whole face is the cover that says my father of the terrorist on and I am thinking thank god places. 530 not 10:30 in the morning because there's no one here and officials walls of my face. What's that like for you by the way to speak your face but that headline. Shook his way I think he's parolee the thing that I think to have the most. In I lose. I consider every single time that I can't do an interview or speech or talk to anyone it's a privilege I'm so lucky. That I kid to. To share my life and the people of interest in and that someone might get something from. Naked. Tears just thinking about what can think of to do's and you know he's at the airport to limit the airport in speaking out against your father is everything you've been taught growing via and I go to this convention first time I ever spoke publicly I got up on stage and spoke for twenty minutes and I have standing ovation that people crying and it was just an incredible experience for me. And by the time I got back to my hotel that night there was an email from one of my father's lawyers saying that today saw the paper and that. My father's been looking for for years he wants to get in contact with him I was so freaked out they didn't even respond to it. But she did the lawyer said united support which are doing them and I still didn't respond and now on sale wasn't sure I want to be in contact with my father Adam. And at that point I didn't even realize how much animosity actually had toward my father because. Everything had to deal as a result can go away. When you decided to cut off contact was it to deliver it. You say to him I don't want to talk to you anymore no I don't just my mother remarried and my step that unfortunate losers physically and emotionally abusive and and in many ways he was the opposite of my father. An and similar in other ways I mean in the sense that. My stepfather was a Muslim but he was most of them in name only I mean he practiced zero tenants of Islam policy was in front of other Muslims and and and he took great. He took in my opening glee him physically. Hurting me and and it was just such a hard time in my life and I are resented my father. You know we would have these same conversations when it got to be too expensive or move too far away to be able to visit my father. Adam. You know we would have these weekly conversations and I was going through so much and the conversation Toro is just me being good to your monitor URU. Community making your prayers him. He need to do this and you need to do that and and eventually it just got to the point north or you know if you really cared about Meehan and about my life. Being good maybe should stuck around. Thank you for listening to and comfortable each of our episode is now available on the truly an act. In an as a free mobile audio app available across IOS android and windows. Downloaded for free today and listen to the latest episode of uncomfortable five days before they're released. You can also find us on apple podcast Spotify pitcher and he BC news.com. And if you like what we're doing take a minute lead as a rating and a quick review it helps others to find these conversations and only really just wanna -- we to think. Plus we have made it easy just click on the link in the description at this past. 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This transcript has been automatically generated and may not be 100% accurate.