'This Week' Transcript 1-19-25: Jon Finer, Steve Bannon & Sen. Alex Padilla

This is a rush transcript of "This Week" airing Sunday, January 19.

ByABC News
January 19, 2025, 9:30 AM

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, January, 19, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Trump's return. Twenty-four hours until he's sworn in with Republicans preparing for full control of Washington. Former White House chief strategist, Steve Bannon, joins us.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: Most people in our movement look at this as President Trump broke the oligarchs.

KARL: He's attacked Elon Musk and now he's taking aim at Mark Zuckerberg.

BANNON: That guy will flip on President Trump, and he'll flip on us in a second.

KARL: Our exclusive interview with the MAGA movement's enforcer.

Plus, the clock runs out for TikTok. What will Donald Trump do?

SHOU CHEW, CEO, TIKTOK: I want to thank President Trump for his commitment to work with us to find a solution that keeps TikTok available.

KARL: Democratic Senator Alex Padilla of California, and our roundtable on TikTok's fate and Trump's embrace of big tech.

And this morning, the long-awaited Israel/Hamas ceasefire begins. Hostages expected to be freed any moment.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I can't allow myself to raise expectations until I'm giving Keith a hug.

KARL: This morning, Ian Pannell is live from Israel. The father of an Israeli American hostage joins us, and White House Deputy National Security Adviser Jon Finer with the latest on the ceasefire deal.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

We come on the air this morning on the precipice of a historic moment, one that feels more like the beginning of a new era than a new presidency. Whether you are hopeful, or whether you are fearful, there is no denying major changes are coming. Donald Trump is about to become just the second ex-president to come back into office. The man who was the 45th president soon becoming the 47th.

He arrived here last night, staying at his golf club just outside of Washington, where he and soon-to-be first lady again, Melania Trump, took in a fireworks show with family and supporters. His incoming White House staff also arrived, armed with dozens of executive orders ready for Trump to sign on day one.

Here is the scene outside of the Capitol this morning. It is cold, and it is about to get much colder, forcing tomorrow's inaugural ceremonies indoors, something that hasn't happened since bitter cold temperatures forced Ronald Reagan's inauguration inside some 40 years ago. A move Reagan joked about in his speech.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT (January 21, 1985): We stand again at the steps of this symbol of our democracy, or we would have been standing at the steps if it hadn't gotten so cold.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: All four living presidents, Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Joe Biden say that they will be there with Donald Trump as he is sworn in inside the Capitol Rotunda. Inside the very building that was attacked by rioters shortly before the last inauguration.

Trump will also be honored tomorrow by some of the biggest names in business, including the three richest Americans, Elon Musk, Jeff Bezos, and Mark Zuckerberg. Their goodwill towards Trump is something new. Four years ago, many of those now honoring him saw him as a pariah. This morning you'll hear from one who never stopped supporting Trump, an architect of his 2016 victory, and today one of the most influential figures in Trump's MAGA movement, Steve Bannon. Bannon has harsh words for Trump's newfound big-money friends. He tells me they are coming to Washington tomorrow as a form of surrender to Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: As soon as Zuckerberg said, I – I’ve been invited and I'm going, the floodgates opened up and they were all there knocking, trying to be supplicant. So, I look at this and I think most people in our movement look at this as President Trump broke the oligarchs. He broke them. And they surrendered.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Much more of that coming up.

But first, we go to two major breaking stories this morning involving Trump and outgoing President Biden. In the Middle East, a long-awaited hostage and prisoner exchange between Israel and Hamas begins to go into effect. We'll have the very latest on that in a moment.

And this morning, a huge story affecting some 170 million Americans. The wildly popularsocial media app TikTok has gone dark, shutting down following a Supreme Court ruling this week upholding a ban on the app unless it is sold by its Chinese parent company.

ABC's Elizabeth Schulze and Rachel Scott joins me now with the latest on TikTok's fate.

Let me start with you, Elizabeth.

So, TikTok, as of last night, not available to the vast majority of Americans.

ELIZABETH SCHULZE, ABC CORRESPONDENT: Completely shut down in the U.S., Jon. So, when you log into the TikTok app, you don't see your feed, you can't scroll, you can’t post. Instead what you see is an image that says “TikTok is not available right now.” That message goes on to say, “President Trump has indicated he'll work with the app on a solution, so stay tuned.”

We also do not see TikTok in the app stores from Apple or Google as of today.

So, keep in mind, TikTok didn't have to shut itself down under this law that is now in effect. It said basically it didn't have enough explicit reassurance by the Biden administration, the companies it works with, Apple, Google, Oracle wouldn't face penalties under this law. The White House basically called that a stunt.

But the bottom line is that right now we had never seen a nationwide shutdown of a popular social media app like this by federal law affecting about 170 million U.S. users.

KARL: But – and let's just pause for a second, 170 million people on TikTok. We're talking about more than half of every man, woman, and child in the United States.

SCHULZE: It's massive. And it's not just the users. We're also talking about content creators and small businesses. Many of them say that their livelihoods depend on this app.

And I've talked to content creators. A lot of them say that the U.S.-based alternatives, Instagram reels, YouTube shorts, simply are not as lucrative as TikTok. The reason why there is the algorithm, it keeps users hooked on that platform for longer, especially those younger users that are so key for brands and advertisers.

KARL: So, Rachel, you heard the message. You know, Donald Trump is working on this basically is what TikTok’s saying. You spoke to Trump about this. He wants to keep TikTok alive.

RACHEL SCOTT, SENIOR POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I spoke to President-elect Donald Trump on the phone for a wide-ranging interview yesterday, and I asked him directly what exactly his administration could do. What could he do to save TikTok as he says that he wants to do. He told me he would like to do a 90-day extension. That he said he would likely do that as they sort of figure this all out.

We know that he has been in talks with the CEO of TikTok, that he plans to attend the inauguration. I also just found out that he also plans to attend his rally tonight.

KARL: This – the TikTok CEO is attending Trump’s rally tonight?

SCOTT: Tonight.

KARL: Incredible. So, can he do this though? I know there's a provision in the law for a – the president right now still is Joe Biden, to have a 90-day extension, but Biden's the president right now. Can Trump actually do this when he gets sworn in tomorrow?

SCOTT: And what is interesting here, Jon, is because you have some top Republicans, including allies of the president-elect who say, no, he cannot. I will tell you we just got this statement moments before we came on the air from Senator Tom Cotton who says, “now that the law has taken effect, there is no legal basis for any kind of extension of its effective date.” So, that's pretty clear-cut coming from a top Republican in the Senate.

Elizabeth and I were talking about this. There was an opportunity for this 90-day extension, but it had to happen before the law went into effect. There also had to be progress on a sale. And I will tell you, in my conversation with the president-elect, there was no indication that there was any progress on that front.

KARL: And we've heard nothing. We know there’s an offer out there, talk of a second offer, but there’s no progress that we can see towards a sale of TikTok, which was what this called for anyway.

Elizabeth Schulze, Rachel Scott, thank you both for joining us.

All right, we turn now to the Middle East where a ceasefire is moving forward with the expected exchange of hostages and prisoners between Israel and Hamas.

Let's go to ABC's chief foreign correspondent, Ian Pannell, with the very latest from Tel Aviv.

Ian, what is going on?

IAN PANNELL, ABC CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Yes, I mean, incredible scenes here. We’ve been coming to this square pretty much since straight after October the 7, 2023, when this was set up as a place for the family, the friends, the supporters of the families, of the hostages who were taken. Remember, more than 250 were captured. And we now know that the first three of 33 to be released as part of this ceasefire deal are going to be released today.

We’ve been seeing pictures up there of what appears to be Red Cross vehicles inside Gaza. We think possibly on their way to try and collect some of them.

And a reminder of who these people are. These are deeply personal stories for so many people. We spoke to the sister of Romi Gonen. She was at the Nova Music Festival. She was on the phone to her mom as she was being attacked. She said, mom, I've been shot. And that was the last that she’d heard from her.

The two other hostages who are going to be released today, also young women. And this is expected to happen in the next couple of hours or so, in exchange for hundreds of Palestinian prisoners.

It is an historic day. Finally the guns have fallen silent. Relief for people inside Gaza. We've seen people already streaming back to what is left of their homes.

And a huge relief for Israelis as well. There's a small minority who are opposed to this, but the vast majority have been supporting the families of the hostages. They also want to return to some semblance of normality.

But a reminder, there's going to be hugely challenging for President Trump's team. This is just phase one. Phase two and three need to see the release of all of the hostages, dead or alive, and the crucial question of what comes next. What does Gaza look like, who governs Gaza?

Remember Hamas is a military organization but it was also the government inside Gaza elected democratically. So what replaces them? Who -- who is going to monitor that?

We know the U.S., Qatar, Egypt are going to be deeply involved in the negotiations, are going to start again within a couple of weeks.

But it's going to be tough. Keeping this peace deal in place, a very fragile ceasefire. But for today, at least relief, and some happiness -- Jon.

KARL: Ian, massive challenges ahead and a great deal of uncertainty. We know you will keep us on top of it all. Thank you very much.

I am joined now by the outgoing White House deputy national security adviser, Jon Finer.

So tell us, it looks like the first release of the hostages is happening. But what are the challenges going forward in terms of getting the other hostages released and, of course, moving beyond that to a lasting solution in Gaza?

JON FINER, WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, Jonathan, as you say and as we just heard reported, in the coming hours, maybe even minutes, we expect to see the first three hostages released under the terms of this deal.

Already, the fighting has ceased in Gaza which provides enormous relief to the people there who have been living in very difficult circumstances now for more than a year, not to mention the just unconscionable circumstances the hostages have found themselves in.

We also expect hundreds of trucks of humanitarian assistance to surge into Gaza today and over the course of the coming days throughout this phase of the deal.

As you say, implementation will be a challenge. There are going to be a number of issues that emerge during the course of trying to get all the different moving pieces that account for implementing this deal lined up. There are going to be some political challenges. There are going to be some operational challenges, and that's why we have been so closely coordinating with the incoming team because as President Biden said the other night, the bulk of implementation is going to take place on their watch.

They're fully up to speed, and we have been as transparent and supportive as we can as we hand this off.

KARL: And the incoming Trump team is fully committed to seeing this implementation through.

FINER: That is our very strong belief. That's everything they have said publicly and privately to us, and it's profoundly in the interest of the United States and the people of the region. So that's what we expect.

KARL: What do we know about the conditions of the other 30 hostages to be released in -- in this phase?

FINER: We don't have a ton of information about their condition. We believe that the vast majority of those hostages are alive but there is going to be much more revealed during the course of actual implementation of this deal as hostages are released over the course of the next six weeks. So, you know, more to come.

KARL: What -- what do you say to -- to some of Israelis? And we heard Ian Pannell tell us that most Israelis are very happy to see this come to take place. But there is concern by some to see that you have so many of these prisoners -- the Palestinian prisoners, more than a hundred released for just the first three hostages released. What do you say to some who are concerned about who would be released?

FINER: I guess what I would say to this, is the Israeli government made a very difficult decision but I think had reached the same conclusion that we have reached over a long period of time, which is that ultimately, the only way to end this war, bring the hostages home, secure humanitarian relief for Gaza was some sort of exchange along the lines that was negotiated.

And I want to say something in particular about President Biden here because this deal is really the deal that he laid out back in May.

The attention of the world, of the press, of maybe even other governments around the world had moved on to other issues but President Biden literally just about every day would call Jake Sullivan or me or others on our team and ask for an update on the deal, what he could do to help push things forward, who he could deploy to the region, who he could call on the phone. And he made you know dozens of calls to heads of state involved in negotiating this deal, to ultimately get it done.

It never escaped his attention and it really was his persistence that ultimately led to the -- the day that we're going to have today and the opportunity for a better future in the region that this unlocks.

KARL: But -- but no doubt this was a joint effort at the end, a joint effort with the incoming Trump team.

FINER: We got significant support from the Trump team. We have been, you know, very transparent about that. We've kept them fully up to speed. They deployed members of their incoming team to the region. The president said -- president-elect said helpful things about the need to get this deal done.

But ultimately, at the end of the day, it was our team that was in the driver's seat for the negotiations directed by President Biden with their support.

KARL: Okay, Jon, before you go, I have to ask you about TikTok. The -- you know, TikTok asked for the outgoing administration -- for the Biden administration to give reassurances that there would be no enforcement of this ban. They say they didn’t get a strong enough assurance on that point.

Could the Biden administration, in this last hours, have done anything to keep TikTok online?

FINER: Jonathan, I don't have a lot to say about this because, frankly, it doesn't feel completely on the level. Our administration was completely clear that there would be no action taken during the course of the last day of this administration, that ultimately the disposition of the situation would fall on to the next administration to decide and to execute. TikTok chose to do what it chose to do. There are obviously other conversations going on that they or the incoming team could speak to. But on – on our side, I think we were extremely clear that there was no need to take this action. They chose to do it. So, I think the question should go to them.

KARL: OK, Jonathan Finer, at the White House in his last hours on the job. I really appreciate you joining us.

FINER: Thanks very much for having me.

KARL: I'm joined now by Jonathan Dekel-Chen. He is the father of Sagui Dekel-Chen, an Israeli American who has been held hostage in Gaza since he was taken prisoner by Hamas on October 7th during those awful terrorist attacks.

Sir, thank you for being with us.

You’ve been – this has been a long road for you. How are you feeling as you are hearing the news about the first hostages, three women, being released?

JONATHAN DEKEL-CHEN, FATHER OF SAGUI DEKEL-CHEN: Well, I and all of Israel, I am sure, will – excuse me – be thrilled with the homecoming of these three young women. I think we're all concerned about what condition they're going to be when they are released. And we hope and pray that they're alive. Again, as your reporter said, we’ve had absolutely no information about really any of the hostages for months, if not over a year. The Red Cross was never allowed visit Hamas, Red Crescent or any other international organization.

So, there's extreme tension both right now about the condition of the 33 who are supposed to come out in the first phase, and how do we bridge between this first phase that will take six weeks, and the two subsequent phases, and to make sure that they are implemented, that neither side, by accident or through intent, in – is able to kind of wiggle out of this.

They had to be forced to this agreement.

KARL: And – and your son, Sagui, he's 30 –

DEKEL-CHEN: Thirty-six.

KARL: Thirty-six. And – and when's the last time you had any update whatsoever on his condition?

DEKEL-CHEN: The last positive sign of life that we got, as many other people got, was a December – early December 2023. So, over a year ago.

KARL: Over a year ago?

DEKEL-CHEN: Yes, sir.

And even that is little assurance because many families got proof of life with the return of the first batch of women and children, at that time, were able to tell us that they had seen, not just Sagui, but many other members of my small kibbutz community. At that time we had 79 hostages. Today Kibbutz Nir Oz still has 29 hostages of the 89. So, they were able to tell us about a lot of men who remain behind. Many of those were subsequently executed by Hamas. And so every minute is crucial.

KARL: But – but Sagui, we are told, is on the list of the 33.

DEKEL-CHEN: Yes. He is on the list of the 33, yes.

KARL: And – and he – and – and this is – he’s got three daughters.

DEKEL-CHEN: Yes.

KARL: And the youngest daughter was born after he was taken hostage. So, he has never seen his youngest daughter.

DEKEL-CHEN: Right. His wonderful wife was seven months pregnant. And for nine horrific hours was able to survive in the safe room of their home in our kibbutz with her two little daughters, while there was murder all around and around our community. They survived. And their youngest was born in mid-December. She only knows her dad as a poster on the wall, and – and not the man himself.

KARL: You're going to be attending the inauguration tomorrow. What – what's your message to the incoming Trump team about the importance of getting this thing followed through on?

DEKEL-CHEN: Well, first, it's immense gratitude. It is absolutely true.

KARL: Gratitude?

DEKEL-CHEN: Gratitude.

KARL: Yes.

DEKEL-CHEN: The – the Biden team absolutely did extraordinary work in getting the super structure of this deal together. However, it took a tweet the subsequent statements from President-elect Trump to get this home. And what we ask of President Trump and his team is to keep their finger on this because it is the Middle East. It's a volatile place. Things change in a moment. And so, not just to hostage families, the seven Americans and all of the 98, but Israel and the region desperately need for the Trump administration to show its strength and to see this home. All 98 with a durable ceasefire.

KARL: All right. Our thank you to you. Our firm hopes for your son's Sagui, for the other members of your kibbutz, and for every single one of those remaining hostages. May they be free soon. Thank you very much.

DEKEL-CHEN: Thank you.

KARL: Jonathan Dekel-Chen.

Coming up, my conversation with one of the most influential and controversial leaders of the MAGA movement. Hear what Steve Bannon thinks about those billionaires now rallying around Trump, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: Mothers and children trapped in poverty in our inner cities. Rusted out factories scattered like tombstones across the landscape of our nation. The crime and the gangs and the drugs that have stolen too many lives.

This American carnage stops right here and stops right now.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Donald Trump's inaugural address in 2017, known as the American carnage speech, a dark portrayal of the country and both political parties.

Steve Bannon was Trump's chief strategist back then and an architect of that speech. Few figures in the MAGA movement are more controversial or more influential. His "War Room" podcast serves up hard-edged attacks on Trump's enemies mixed with calls for revenge and retribution.

Bannon spent four months in prison last year for contempt of Congress. He refused to testify about his conversations with Trump. He still talks with him regularly. In fact, I'm told one of the very first calls that Bannon received after he was released from prison, was from Donald Trump.

I sat down with Bannon at the Capitol Hill townhouse where he broadcasts "The War Room." We've interviewed him before. This time his tone seemed slightly different, a bit less confrontational, although as you will hear he did baselessly call Mark Zuckerberg a criminal. That's the same Mark Zuckerberg who will be attending the inauguration tomorrow as a guest of Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: I interviewed you just hours before you went into prison. And now we're sitting here again together just hours before Trump's going to be sworn in.

STEVE BANNON, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF STRATEGIST: If I remember correctly, we talked at least before and afterwards about how we were going to win this.

KARL: You were quite confident.

BANNON: Very confident.

KARL: So he's going to go out there. It's the second inaugural. You were an architect of the first inaugural, which was American carnage and a condemnation of everybody that was around him on that stage.

Is he going to do it again? Is this American Carnage 2.0? Because I'm hearing he's not. I'm hearing this is a very different tone.

BANNON: No. No. No, bring the country together. Unify the country.

KARL: What does Steve Bannon think of that?

BANNON: I think it's very appropriate for this. Look at the coalition we put together. What happened on 5 November? Right?

Look, I realize I'm -- you know, always on the attack, but he's president of the United States. He won this victory. He has a big coalition to pull together. And I think he's going to try to unify the country around a course of action that we have to take.

I think he'll lay out the challenges, and he'll lay out the beginning in some sort of 65 -- 60,000 foot level what his policies and proposals are. But I think it'll all be about unifying the country and going forward together.

KARL: So does that mean all that talk of retribution is never mind?

BANNON: President Trump has said, and I think in response to you, that his idea of retribution is, is peace and prosperity, is security in a -- in a new golden age.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: So prosecuting his enemies, going after the January 6th committee, going after the prosecutors, that -- they went after him, Mark Milley, all that stuff’s -- forget about that?

BANNON: I didn't say that. I think that is different. I don't think that's revenge or retribution at all. I -- and I'm a big believer, and I've said this over and over again, I say it on the show every day, we have obligations to this republic that this can never happen again. And I think we've got to go back to the beginning.

KARL: So what do you make of the fact that sitting there with him, I guess now we're inside, but you're going to see the three richest Americans ever. You're going to see Elon Musk, Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, prime seats.

That doesn't seem like the forgotten men and women that Trump talked about last time. Are you surprised to see that?

BANNON: I am not. They're there as supplicants. They're not there as the oligarchs.

Remember what Biden said about the oligarchs -- Jonathan, you know better than anybody, because you've chronicled this in detail, we had no power. President Trump was out and I mean, when out, the political class and the Republican Party and Fox News turned against him. We're going to make him a non-person.

KARL: He was banned from their platforms.

BANNON: For, I think, 18 months.

But as soon as Zuckerberg said, I've been invited. I'm going. The floodgates opened up and they were all there knocking, trying to be supplicants.

So I look at this and I think most people in our movement look at this as President Trump broke the oligarchs, he broke them and they surrendered. They can say, we'll take off any constraints that we can, no more checking, everything.

And when Biden talks about that, they create the oligarchs. They only became oligarchs and they flipped on them when they had surrendered. And now, and now, they're going to come to Trump saying, I view this as September of 1945, the Missouri, and you have the Imperial High Command --

KARL: Imperial Japanese.

BANNON: And -- and he's like Douglas MacArthur. There -- that is an official surrender. Okay? And I think it's -- I think it's powerful.

KARL: Mark Zuckerberg is there. Do you believe his conversion?

BANNON: Absolutely not. I think Mark Zuckerberg is a criminal. I think, Mark, I think in a properly adjudicated.

KARL: A criminal?

BANNON: Yes. For 2020, for the Zuckerbucks.

But I want to see that -- I want to see that in a --in a systematic adjudication either in the House or I think better with a grand jury and a special prosecutor to go through 2020.

KARL: You find you want Trump's Justice Department, Justice Department under Trump, to prosecute Mark Zuckerberg.

BANNON: I didn't say that. I didn't say that. I didn't say that.

What I want is the House to do it first. But if they're not prepared to do it, a special counsel's set up that looks at the 2020 election and looks at it seriously and adjudicates it. If there's nothing there, there's nothing there.

Zuckerberg's, you know, road to Damascus came a little late.

KARL: Yeah.

BANNON: It was after the 5th of November. It's very, you know, now wants to be a bro. He Kung Fu fights. He's going to UFC. He's got his hair done differently.

He's -- he's cut. That doesn't hack it with me. That guy will flip on President Trump and he'll flip on us in the second. When it’s -- when it's convenient for him, he will flip.

KARL: I mean, there's no evidence that he did anything that affected the outcome of the election.

You called Elon Musk a truly evil person.

BANNON: Yeah.

KARL: It’s a little harsh.

BANNON: It was said in context. Let's see, what he did is that he came out and he called American citizens, he retweeted something called ‘our workers retards”, said that we were not up to speed to do what taking these jobs. He said that the MAGA movement was a bunch of racists and that they should be turfed out of the Republican Party.

And Elon, because he's tweeting all the stuff online, he may or may not mean that. But to me, there has to be an accounting for that. Now, listen, he's like I said, he's done great things. He supported us in 2025 -- 2024. And that was a major reason that President Trump won it. He supported the ground game.

KARL: When you go after Elon Musk the way you have so harshly, do you get blowback from Trump? Does he reach out to you and say, knock it off, this is my ally, this guy helped me, he’s coming to my administration?

(CROSSTALK)

BANNON: I never -- I never -- I never -- I never -- I never disclose anything, conversation with the president or even with the staff or anything like this. But I would just duly note, I would just duly note. I didn't see any leaks in the press about the staff or anybody having problems with it.

So I don't ask them. I don't -- my permission structure is not to go back and ask people for permission because I'm --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Well, if Trump told you directly, knock it off, Bannon, this is my guy, would you knock it off?

BANNON: If President Trump has a conversation with me, I'll keep that conversation between President Trump and myself. How's that?

KARL: Donald Trump has them as guests down at Mar-a-Lago. He's at the inauguration. They're in his administration. I mean, I understand you're saying it's a surrender.

BANNON: Let's -- let's -- let's be clear about this. Trump's not making -- and when I say guest, he's not making an outbound call. They're calling. They're stacked up in Mar-a-Lago like planes on a Friday night over LaGuardia. OK? We're trying to -- they're trying to get a landing slot to get in there and be a supplicant.

KARL: Elon Musk is basically living there.

BANNON: He is living. He's got, I think, a cottage there.

KARL: I mean, Trump seems to like having him around.

BANNON: It would seem President Trump would let you know if he didn't.

KARL: So you have like you have the following that is the kind of ground troops of the MAGA movement.

BANNON: Some not all, but we have a -- we have a -- we have a -- because people come to us for the information on the show.

KARL: So what do they want? What are their -- what do they hope --

BANNON: They want President Trump is what they want, and they got him.

KARL: What if he fails to deliver?

BANNON: He's not going to -- he's not going to fail to deliver. Is everything going to be perfect as the far right thinks it? No, it's not. And I don't -- I never pretended it is. I do have a theory based onThomas Kuhn's "The Structure of Scientific Revolutions" about paradigm shifts. If you shift the paradigm, eventually they're going to debate on your -- on your -- on your turf.

And right now, I think if you see -- if you see the -- the hearings of the cabinet officials and see these ideas coming out, America first ideas, right? Populist ideas, populist nationalist ideas, we've shifted that paradigm.

KARL: There was no pushback from the old Republican Party and you would argue not much of a pushback from the Democrats.

BANNON: Jonathan, I'm shocked. I thought there’d be Republicans on the panel that were asking hard questions. I thought Democrats would be going nuts. And really, from a policy perspective, I sat there. I think I saw the end of both old -- the Democratic Party as it exists and the husk of the Republican Party as McConnell and Paul Ryan hoped.

KARL: So when Trump comes up there and gives the second inaugural. You say it's not going to be American second carnage, again (ph)?

BANNON: I think President Trump will go through how we got here. Where we're going, what his plan is to lead us and to bring us together. He's a unifying figure right now because, think about it, this coalition -- and that's why he has a -- he has a difficult job. He has the oligarchs that have surrendered, right, now --

KARL: Bezos, Zuckerberg --

BANNON: The oligarchs, all of them. And also -- also the crypto guys. It's a whole --

(CROSSTALK)

BANNON: It's a whole -- it's a whole ecosystem.

KARL: Yeah, yeah, yeah.

BANNON: You have that. You have working-class African Americans. You have South Texas in the Rio Grande Valley; people are now prepared not just to stop voting for Democrats, but to vote for him. He's got -- he's got kind of the hard right, right? The MAGA. He's got -- he's now got financiers. He's got corporatists. He has to hold -- his thing is to hold that coalition together. But if you had to have somebody to do it, he's the guy to do it. That's why he is at the level of Washington and Lincoln. And this will be known.

And when history is written, Elon Musk, Steve Bannon, Tucker Carlson, Jonathan Karl will all be washed away and forgotten in the footnotes. They'll know two things -- and Pelosi be washed away, Schumer. They'll know two things. Trump and the MAGA movement. This is changing American politics. American politics, as I said for years, is ultimately going to get a place of two alternative versions of populism, a populist nationalism that President Trump has built up, America first. And you're going to have some sort of still populist globalism that looks like the left may try to come together with.

KARL: We contacted Meta regarding Bannon's comments about Mark Zuckerberg. They declined to comment. Up next, what will Democrats do to try to stop Trump's second term agenda? We'll be right back with Senator Alex Padilla of California.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: (INAUDIBLE) is taking shape in America of extreme wealth, power, and influence that literally threatens our entire democracy, our basic rights and freedoms, and a fair shot for everyone to get ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was President Biden in his farewell address from the Oval Office this week, warning about the dangers of big tech and its ultra wealthy leaders.

Democratic Senator Alex Padilla of California joins me now.

Senator Padilla, good morning. Thank you for being here.

I want to start with the – one of the big news stories this morning, which is TikTok is now dark. And 170 million Americans can no longer access the app. What do your constituents say about that?

SEN. ALEX PADILLA, (D) CALIFORNIA & JUDICIARY COMMITTEE: Constituents on – on both sides of the debate, but, you know, the law has been passed. The Supreme Court has upheld what's currently happening. And it's clear that it’s going to be one of the first items that President Trump will have to contend with.

So, I don't think the final chapter's been written. TikTok had plenty of time to do what the legislation called for and sell the majority interest here. So, we'll see what happens in the days ahead.

KARL: And do you think President Trump should do what he has said he would do, which is to save TikTok?

PADILLA: Well, I think first, it's – they're going to figure out whether to give this sort of 90-day extension.

KARL: Right.

PADILLA: To keep conversations and negotiations going.

Look, we’re – we support the creative community, and social media platforms, but clear there have to be guardrails to protect against a lot of the harms that are increasingly evident when it comes to, not just but TikTok, whether it's addiction to social media, the power of misinformation and disinformation that extends (ph) so many issue areas. Those are undeniable and have to be addressed, whether TikTok stays or whether TikTok is sold or whether TikTok goes away.

KARL: So, the inauguration is obviously tomorrow. Are you going to the inaugural?

PADILLA: I – I do plan to be there, of course.

KARL: And what are your – what are your expectations for a second Trump term?

PADILLA: There's sort of a lot of – maybe not hoping for the best, but hoping for some good, but preparing for some bad if the first administration was any indicator.

Look, there's been a lot of assessment or analyzing of what this means for Democrats, the outcome of the November elections. I think Democrats, and I'm speaking for my colleagues here, stand ready to work with the new administration where we agree. If we want to build on our progress from the last four years in record job creation, wage increases, record-sustained low unemployment, and historic investments in our nation's infrastructure from an economic and security standpoint, that's great. But if he wants to start the administration by gutting the social safety nets simply to fund tax breaks for billionaires, that's a non-starter.

So, I think the question is really for Trump and Republicans, how are they going to choose to approach this new term and this new session of Congress?

KARL: Well, let me ask you about the working with Trump part of that.

John Fetterman, your Democratic colleague from Pennsylvania actually went down to Mar-a-Lago and met with Trump. And he said -- he actually told me shortly before going down there that he is rooting for Trump to be a successful president, saying, if you're rooting against the president, you're rooting against the nation.

So are you -- are you rooting for Trump to be successful? And have you reached out -- would you like to meet with him one-on-one the way Senator Fetterman did?

PADILLA: Look, if I’m going to root for any president to be successful, it depends on how we define success. And I just laid out, if we're going to continue the progress of the last four years for the sake of our national security, for the sake of our economy and working class families -- and absolutely, Donald Trump or anybody else.

But I’m not going to root for President Trump's success simply on his terms.

And I’ll give you a classic example. Just a couple of months ago, despite all the rhetoric around immigration and immigrants that we've heard from him for years and years and years when he says publicly that he's supportive of helping Dreamers, hey, I’m all ears. I have to do that.

I owe it to Dreamers and all of my constituents to see if there's a path forward for young people who came to this country and have established their lives here are contributing to communities, contributing to our economy, whether it's legalization and a pathway to citizenship for Dreamers, for farm workers or millions of essential workers. That's the goal, and I’ll work with whoever I need to try to make that happen.

KARL: Okay, and before you go, very quickly, we've learned that Trump plans to visit California on Friday, you know, to survey the damage at the fires. He's had quite a back and forth insults traded with -- with your governor, with Gavin Newsom.

Just very quickly, how important is it for those two to work together to rebuild L.A.?

PADILLA: Yeah, look, look forward to incoming President Trump visiting the fire-impacted areas and to visit with the fire-impacted families that are struggling right now, and especially to get away from this notion that we're going to attach strings to disaster aid. We have never done that as a country. We have never done that as a Congress and we shouldn't start now.

Give communities and families the resources they need to recover, to rebuild, and that's the way -- if you want to unify the country, that's the way you can start.

KARL: All right. Senator Alex Padilla of California -- thank you for joining us this morning.

And you can see at the bottom of this, your screen, how you can support the relief effort for SoCal Strong.

Coming up, Rachel Scott has more from her conversation with President-elect Trump, including what we can expect on executive orders in his first week in office.

We'll be right back with the roundtable.

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KARL: So what executive orders is Donald Trump going to sign first? Well, Rachel Scott just asked him. We'll be back with the Roundtable in a minute.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Be sure to tune in tomorrow for full coverage on ABC. And let's bring in the Roundtable. We have ABC's Chief White House correspondent Mary Bruce and the newest member of our ABC News White House team, Senior Political Correspondent, Rachel Scott; and Politico Senior Political Columnist, Jonathan Martin.

Mary, let me start with you. We -- the inauguration is inside, big change.

MARY BRUCE, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Yeah. They're starting from scratch. It's a huge change. And look, there's no doubt that Donald Trump clearly wanted to have that image of him out on the west front of the Capitol, taking the oath of office. And now that he's all completely changed the forecast, we know he is going to be brutal.

The president-elect says he's doing this because of the danger. It certainly though also lets them avoid the potential for smaller crowds because of the cold. It means he's going to have less interaction with his -- with his supporters. We know that that image of the crowds is important to him.

And look, these things are in the works for years. I mean, they've been putting up the -- the reviewing stance since before the election.

JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO SENIOR POLITICAL COLUMNIST: Yeah. Yeah.

BRUCE: And now, they have to redo everything. I mean, the guest list of 1,600 outside the Capitol now is to be scrapped to 600. That's a nightmare for any party planner, but it means --

KARL: Oh God, (inaudible) need to be the one.

BRUCE: -- the dignitaries, tech billionaires, everyone is scrambling. I will say this lastly though. The president-elect understands political stagecraft better than anyone. So whether it's inside or outside, he's going to find ways to connect with his supporters and have those indelible images.

KARL: It would've been something Rachel to see Mark Zuckerberg, Jeff Bezos, Elon Musk, Tim Cook out there in sub-freezing temperatures --

MARTIN: The full party (ph).

KARL: That would have been really something. So you spoke to Trump. What's he going to do right out of the bat? What's he telling you?

SCOTT: Yes. The president-elect even told me yesterday that he thinks some of those tech CEOs are probably happier it's going to be inside and a whole lot warmer.

KARL: I guess so. They probably had high-tech gear, though, right? Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

SCOTT: That is true. Behind closed doors, you had Trump advisers tell Senate in-house Republicans to expect a slew of executive orders especially on day one. President-elect Donald Trump has said this on the campaign trail. I asked him what executive actions does he plan to move forward with on day one? He said to expect immigration to be a very big focus. He also said environmental protections that were put in place by President Biden including electric vehicle mandates. He said expect these to rapidly disappear calling them ridiculous.

I also asked him about these pardons for the January 6th rioters, something that he has vowed to do repeatedly on the campaign trail.

KARL: Yes.

SCOTT: Will we see that on day one? He wouldn't commit, but he told me it will happen very shortly. Still some questions here though on which rioters he would pardon including those who assaulted police officers that day.

KARL: So I got to say, I don't know if you agree with me, Jonathan, but when I heard Bannon, I thought that he was dialing it down a bit. I mean, he still -- so he called Zuckerberg a criminal, so he didn't dial it down that much.

MARTIN: Yes.

KARL: And we're hearing, and Trump told Rachel this as well, unifying tone for the inaugural, no American carnage, but this agenda is --

MARTIN: The new Trump, Jon?

KARL: This is going to be the agenda that he campaigned on. I mean, you heard Rachel mention, I mean, pardons for January 6th. I mean --

MARTIN: I don't think Trump is capable of any significant change. He is what he is more than any other modern American political figure. I think he's fixed. Look, I think he's going to go forward with pardons of a lot of folks who committed crimes on January 6th. I think there's going to be aggressive action on immigration and deportations in ways we haven't really seen in this country.

KARL: Starting tomorrow probably, right?

MARTIN: Starting tomorrow. It's down in Chicago. So, look, I think Trump is going to fulfill a lot of what he campaigned on, but ultimately, Jon, you know this, Trump cares how he's perceived and he wants to be liked by everybody, most -- certainly the press, right? And so I think that the coverage of him is going to be crucial in the first months. What kind of coverage is he getting? Is it positive coverage or not?

That's going to shape him more than any other norm, more than Congress, more than the courts, more than anything else, is the coverage going forward?

KARL: OK. Quickly, TikTok. Who's going to pay the price for TikTok going dark? Because this is going to be very unpopular with a lot of Americans.

BRUCE: Well, and Donald Trump certainly is saying that he is going to come up with a plan, right? He mentioned that to you. He's been out there making that --

KARL: Whether he can.

BRUCE: Making that very clear. But I don't know if he actually can do that. And, you know, this really is big, and it is going to present challenges you were discussing earlier within his own party, because certainly this legislation passed for a reason. You have plenty of Republicans who want this ban to hold, and so is it going to set up a little bit of conflict between the new president, members of Congress, and certainly you have those voices in his ears coming from Silicon Valley as well.

KARL: I mean, you have those national security concerns, but you have people who love that app and are going to be upset that they cannot use it today.

SCOTT: Yes, absolutely, and not only to mention that --

KARL: Including Rachel Scott who has quite a TikTok following.

SCOTT: Yes. And look, President-elect Donald Trump feels like he got elected, in part, because of his outreach on some of these social media platforms, reaching out to these younger audiences as well. So, look, it's one of the first things that he said this morning on Truth Social. Save TikTok. This is going to be his push, but can he get it done?

KARL: OK.

MARTIN: And the first real test between he and congressional Republicans who are more hawkish on China.

KARL: Yes.

MARTIN: This is a stand-in for the intraparty tensions on China broadly.

KARL: OK. So I want to get to the other guy. Joe Biden still in office. "New York Times" had a couple of stories that I thought were very interesting about Biden including this one. I think we have the graphic -- Schumer, I'm urging you not to run, how Schumer pushed Biden to drop out." So I have to say as I read that article, it made me think of something that we --

MARTIN: You're reminded, though.

KARL: Yes, back in July on this network at the Republican convention, here's what I reported.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I am told that this was a one-on-one meeting, just the Senate leader and the president, and that Chuck Schumer forcefully made the case that it would be better for Biden, better for the Democratic Party, and better for the country if he were to bow out of the race.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: OK. Now when I reported that, Jonathan Martin --

MARTIN: Yes.

KARL: There was pushback from the Democratic leader's office saying it was idle speculation. Now it seems they're very eager to embrace what he did.

MARTIN: That's the difference between an unplanned leak and a planned leak, OK? Last year, last summer, Chuck Schumer didn't want that leaking out in that fashion. Now this is about history and posterity, and Chuck Schumer wants the textbooks to record that when the moment came in summer of 2024, he too was pushing out Joe Biden. You and I know it was much more Nancy Pelosi than it was Chuck Schumer, but he's playing for history now, Chuck is.

KARL: And you have new reporting, I mean, Pelosi -- I mean, the Pelosi-Biden --

MARTIN: Yes.

KARL: -- tension has not faded away one iota.

MARTIN: Just the opposite. My column today, I report that Jill and Joe Biden have not reached out to Nancy Pelosi since she fell in December and broke her hip in Europe, which is an extraordinary sort of silence from two people who were known for their personal decency and kindness that's sort of bigger than politics.

KARL: Yeah.

MARTIN: And she's been a long-time ally and I spoke with one of Pelosi's daughters, Alexandra, yesterday who referred to Jill Biden as Lady McBiden and urged the first lady put on your big-girl pants and start thinking about your husband's legacy.

KARL: It's -- and how is that coming?

(LAUGH)

BRUCE: Well, I was going to say, I mean, legacy certainly is going to be at the front of so many people's minds as -- come tomorrow afternoon as they sit there and watch Donald Trump be sworn in. Certainly, Joe Biden has been out there trying to define his own legacy. But you can't help but remember and think that when he dropped out of the race, he was doing it in part, he thought to save his legacy, that he would be defined by how he put his party over his personal interest, paving the way for Kamala Harris to come in and drive his agenda forward. And now, it's quite the opposite.

Now, you are seeing so many Democrats, and I think a lot of people in the country, and you have to wonder what Joe Biden and whether he's thinking this as well, wondering whether his decision to drop out when he did, his decision to run again, now that is going to define his legacy for the role that he played in Donald Trump's return to Washington.

KARL: And Democrats, I mean, I'm hearing -- and I'm sure you are Rachel, especially on the Hill, real frustration with Biden on the way out.

SCOTT: Oh, absolutely.

KARL: I mean anger.

SCOTT: Yeah. Anger, frustration, I think across the board and -- and a little bit, I think this has to do with also how Vice President Kamala Harris ran her campaign as well. Frustration is a finger pointing, it is a blame game. But look, they're all confronted with the same reality. It is President-elect Donald Trump who is going to be there on Inauguration Day, taking the oath, and he was elected by the people of the United States, and they are trusting him to carry out his vision for the country.

MARTIN: It's the great tragedy.

BRUCE: And remember, Joe Biden still says that he thinks he could have defeated Trump.

KARL: Yes.

BRUCE: So this is something that he is still very much actively wrestling with, whether he likes it or not, he still isn't ready to accept it seems the political reality

KARL: All right. Thank you all. We will be right back.

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KARL: Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. And be sure to tune in Monday across ABC and ABC News live platforms for full coverage of the second inauguration of Donald Trump. We'll see you there. Have a great day.

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END