'This Week' Transcript 4-13-25: U.S. Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick, Sen. Elizabeth Warren & Stephen A. Smith

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 13, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Changing course.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: People were jumping a little bit out of line. They were getting yippie.

KARL: President Trump hits pause on at least some of his tariffs after days of market turmoil, but he escalates the trade war with China.

TRUMP: China was, by far, the biggest abuser in history, but somebody had to do it.

HOWARD LUTNICK, WHITE HOUSE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: Either China comes to the table with Donald Trump or they don't. They can't afford to be without us.

KARL: The president now carving out exemptions on electronics. The partial reversals bringing a sigh of relief. So, what will the 90-day pause mean for the American economy? Are Trump's tariffs constitutional? This morning I'll ask Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick. Senator Elizabeth Warren responds.

And, will he or won't he?

STEPHEN A. SMITH, HOST OF ESPN’S ‘FIRST TAKE’: I have no desire to be a politician, but I've decided I'm no longer going to close that door.

KARL: Our exclusive with ESPN's Stephen A. Smith, the king of the "hot take," takes on Trump and the Democrats, and why he's thinking about running for president.

Plus.

TRUMP: We're honored to have Gretchen Whitmer from Michigan. She's really done an excellent job.

KARL: How did Gretchen Whitmer end up in the Oval Office while Trump signed retribution orders against his former aides? The roundtable takes on all the week's politics.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it's THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

President Trump's trade war is still on, but it looks a whole lot different than it did just a few days ago. The biggest change coming in the dead of night on Friday. At 10:36 p.m. Eastern Time, U.S. Customs and Border Patrol put out a notice saying that a wide range of electronics will now be exempt from Donald Trump's new tariffs. That means no new tariffs on smartphones or flat-screen TVs, no new tariffs on laptops and memory chips, no new tariffs on the machines used to create semiconductors. The move takes away, at least for now, most of the new tariffs on the largest single category of imports from China, as well as electronics made everywhere else in the world.

Is this all more Trump flexibility? Is it all part of a multidimensional negotiating strategy? Or is it just more chaos? How long will these exemptions last? In a moment, I'll talk to Commerce Secretary Howard Lutnick to try to find out what is going on and what will happen next.

But first, here’s a look at the extraordinary week of surprises, reversals, and market turmoil.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (voice over): When he announced his tariffs last week, President Trump called it liberation day. The markets didn't see it that way.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Close to about 4,000 points lost in just two days. You can see there on the opening bell, down 1,200 points here.

KARL (voice over): But Trump didn't seem to care, declaring late last week, “My policies will never change.”

Even as the markets continued to tank, and his allies on Wall Street pleaded with him to at least take a breather and put his tariffs on hold, Trump stood firm.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Would you be open to a pause in tariffs to allow for negotiations?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, we're not looking at that.

KAROLINE LEAVITT, WHITE HOUSE PRESS SECRETARY: He said he's not considering an extension or a delay.

KARL (voice over): There would be no negotiation.

TRUMP: They’ve ripped us off left and right. But now it's our turn to do the ripping.

KARL (voice over): It wasn't just stocks tanking, but bonds, too, and the U.S. dollar. JP Morgan put the risk of recession at 60 percent, warning of higher inflation. Others warning of economic meltdown. For a while, at least, Trump seemed unfazed.

TRUMP: I know what the hell I'm doing. I know what I'm doing. And you know what I'm doing, too. That's why you vote for me.

KARL: The next day, a stunning reversal. Trump announced he would pause the so-called reciprocal tariffs that had just gone into effect for 90 days. The move blindsided just about everybody, including his own top trade adviser who was testifying before Congress when he saw the news.

REP. STEVEN HORSFORD (D-NV): Are you aware that the tariffs have been paused?

JAMIESON GREER, U.S. TRADE REPRESENTATIVE: I am, yes.

HORSFORD: When – when – when were you made aware of that?

GREER: I understood the decision was made a few minutes ago.

HORSFORD: It looks like your boss just pulled the rug out from under you and paused the tariffs. The taxes on the American people. There's no strategy. You just found out three seconds ago sitting here, we saw you.

KARL (voice over): President Trump said the move was prompted by the market turndown.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Well, I thought that people were jumping a little bit out of line. They were getting yippie, you know. They were getting a little bit yippie. A little bit afraid.

KARL (voice over): His reversal caused market whiplash. The Dow spiking 2,900 points. The S&P posting its biggest one-day gain since the 2008 financial crisis. But the rebound was short-lived. Even with the pause, 10 percent tariffs remain in effect globally, and a 145 percent tax on everything coming in from China, prompting China to impose a 125 percent tariff on American products, an all-out trade war between the world's largest economies.

SCOTT BESSENT, SECRETARY OF THE TREASURY: It was a big mistake, this Chinese escalation.

KARL (voice over): While the White House says there are negotiations underway with more than 70 countries, the big one is China. And while Trump sounds like he really wants a deal –

TRUMP: I have great respect for President Xi. He's been, in a true sense, he’s been a friend of mine for a long period of time. And I think that we'll end up working out something that's very good for both countries. I look forward to it.

KARL (voice over): Trump writing on social media, quote, “We are waiting for their call. It will happen.” But that call hasn't come.

A spokesperson for the Hong Kong office of China's foreign ministry writing, “We must solemnly tell the U.S., a tariff-wielding barbarian who attempts to force countries to call and beg for mercy, can never expect that call from China.”

The tariffs will have an impact on just about everyone, from farmers unable to sell to China, to higher prices at home for everything from toys and clothing to high-tech electronics. Although the Trump administration announced late Friday that smartphones, computers and other electronic parts will be exempt from tariffs, at least temporarily. The president is now acknowledging there may be, quote, “problems,” but he insists it will be worth it.

TRUMP: Again, there will be a transition cost, and transition problems, but, in the end, it's going to be – it’s going to be a beautiful thing.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: I'm joined now by Secretary of Commerce Howard Lutnick.

Secretary Lutnick, thank you for being with us this morning. I really appreciate your time.

So, let's start with that news. The –

HOWARD LUTNICK, WHITE HOUSE SECRETARY OF COMMERCE: It's my pleasure.

KARL: Let's start with that news late Friday that this exemption on electronics, smartphones, laptop computers and the like. What's the thinking? Why the exemption?

LUTNICK: Well, if you remember, over the past couple of months President Trump has called out pharmaceuticals and semiconductors and autos. He called them sector tariffs. And those are not available for negotiation. They are just going to be part of making sure we reshore the core national security items that need to be made in this country. We need to make medicine in this country. We learned it during Covid. We need to make it in this country. We need to make semiconductors. Because if we don't own semiconductors here, remember, all – virtually all semiconductors are made now in Taiwan and they're finished in China. It's important that we reshore them.

And so the president is going to come out with his policies on semiconductors and pharmaceuticals. They're going to be outside the reciprocal tariffs. And he was just making sure everyone understood that all of these products are outside the reciprocal tariffs and they are going to have their own separate way of being considered.

KARL: But – but – but, wait a minute, I'm – I'm asking you about the exemption, not about – I mean the – the notice that went out Friday night saying that electronics, a wide range of electronics, including smartphones, including components used to make microchips, that these are now exempt from the reciprocal tariffs. Why that move?

LUTNICK: Well, remember, those products are going to be part of the semiconductor sectoral tariffs which are coming. So, you’re going to see this week there will be a register in the federal registry. There will be a notice put out. That is different types of work.

So, we're going to do that. We did that in autos. The president is going to do it for pharmaceuticals. I think he’s going to do it for semiconductors. So, all those products are going to come under semiconductors, and they're going to have a special focus-type of tariff to make sure that those products get reshored.

We need to have semiconductors, we need to have chips, and we need to have flat panels. We need to have these things made in America. We can't be reliant on Southeast Asia for all of the things that operate for us.

So, what he's doing is he's saying they're exempt from the reciprocal tariffs but they're included in the semiconductor tariffs, which are coming in probably a month or two. So, these are coming soon. You shouldn't think this is really outside of it. Really think of it as being included in the semiconductor space. Much like pharmaceuticals --

KARL: Okay, so --

LUTNICK: -- they require special attention, and the president is on it.

KARL: So -- so you're saying that the big tariffs on things like smartphones and laptops, iPhones -- all those iPhones built in China -- that those tariffs are temporarily off, but they're going to be coming right back on in another form in a month or so? Or what -- what are you saying?

LUTNICK: Correct, that -- that's right. That's right. Semiconductors and pharmaceuticals will have a tariff model in order to encourage them to reshore, to be built in America. We need our medicines, and we need semiconductors and our electronics to be built in America.

We can't be the holden and rely upon foreign countries for fundamental things that we need. We can't be relying on China for fundamental things that we need.

Our medicines and our semiconductors need to be built in America. Donald Trump is on it. He's calling that out.

So, you should understand these are included in the semiconductor tariffs that are coming and the pharmaceuticals are coming. Those two areas are coming in the next month or two.

So, this is not like a permanent sort of exemption. He's just clarifying that these are not available to be negotiated away by countries. These are things that are national security, that we need to be made in America.

KARL: The president's made it clear he wants negotiations with China. Have you had any conversations with your Chinese counterpart? Has there been anything between you and the Chinese?

LUTNICK: I think we've had soft -- the way I would say it is, is soft entrees, you know, through intermediaries and those kind of comments.

But we all expect that the president of the United States and President Xi of China will work this out. I am completely confident as is he that this will be worked out in a positive, thoughtful and effective way for the United States of America.

I mean, Donald Trump has the ball. I want him to have it. He's the right person with it.

He knows how to play this game. He knows how to deal with President Xi. This is the right person for the right role, and I am confident this is going to work out with China.

Yes, is it in a tough spot now? Of course, it is. But that'll -- you'll see. The -- all of that energy will sort of decline, and we'll end up in a perfectly reasonable place with China. I'm confident of that.

KARL: But -- but can I ask you? The president's called President Xi a friend. He said the Chinese are proud people.

Can you explain to me what the vice president was saying not long ago when he referred to the Chinese people as peasants?

Let me -- let me play the sound, so you can hear it.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We borrow money from Chinese peasants to buy the things those Chinese peasants manufacture. That is not a recipe for economic prosperity. It's not a recipe for low prices, and it's not a recipe for good jobs in the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Did the vice president go off message there? I mean, he's calling the Chinese peasants. This is something that we heard the -- that the Chinese say was ignorant and disrespectful.

I mean, I haven't heard Donald Trump talk that way about the Chinese.

LUTNICK: No, I'm just going to step back and really just leave the vice president to let him defend himself. He knows what he meant and we all know what he meant, which is that, you know, the Chinese have basically attacked America and ripped us off by -- by undercutting our businesses by -- the government of China assists their businesses to undercut our businesses, drive them out of business, and take that manufacturing over to China.

It's happened in pharmaceuticals. It's happened in so many industries, we feel it, steel and aluminum, so many.

So, the idea is if the government of China is behind their businesses -- imagine if the government of America, the United States of America was backing your business, I mean, you'd be a killer in the world.

So that's what the Chinese have been doing. And finally, Donald Trump is standing up to it saying, look, in order to make it fair for American businesses, we have to put a tariff on China to level the playing field, to take their government out of being a competitor. We need to have medicines built in America. We need to have those products here in America because we need them.

We can't have a war and be asking China to send over penicillin. It just -- it's not reasonable. We can't rely on other countries for semiconductors. We can't rely on other countries for steel and aluminum.

These are national security issues, and Donald Trump is going to make sure they're reshored, we have the capacity to do it.

If you've seen, you know, an auto plant these days, these are beautiful plants. You know, these new modern plants are amazing and the jobs they create for our American workers are amazing jobs.

And that's what Donald Trump is focused on -- bringing those jobs and those factories back to America and employing American workers. He’s on it and he’s going to bring them back.

KARL: The president also said there's going to be a transition cost, transition problems. I mean we are going to see higher prices in America. It's not like you can open a factory tomorrow to build iPhones or to – to make sneakers, shoes. I mean we – we – we buy a lot of shoes in this country, 99 percent of them are made elsewhere. I mean do you – are we going to become a nation of cobblers again? I mean what – this is going to mean higher prices, isn't it?

LUTNICK: I mean have you seen – I – I don't necessarily think so. I think the idea is that we can manufacture here in America. As I said, there’s a – I saw Panasonic, you know the battery company, right, the Japanese company, they built an amazing factory in Kansas, which they're opening now. They put it in the ground when Donald Trump was the president, and just finishing now. Four thousand new jobs built from what – they made deals with the community colleges nearby and all the – the local community and the local university. They trained people for this. Four thousand high-tech jobs in Kansas. That is what's coming back to America. You're going to see that production, that – that kind of high-tech factories going to produce things here at very reasonable prices.

KARL: So –

LUTNICK: So, I think this is going to work out. Plus, our farmers are going to finally have access to the world's markets.

KARL: I've never –

LUTNICK: You know, our farmers have never had the opportunity to sell corn in India. So, what’s going to happen is –

KARL: I'm afraid we –

LUTNICK: As they sell more and more products, prices will come down.

KARL: I mean, Mr. Secretary –

LUTNICK: More volume – it’s lower prices. You're going to see lower prices in America on lots of different products.

KARL: Mr. – Mr. Secretary, I mean right now we're seeing them effectively being locked out of a very large market, especially people like soybean farmers in China.

But let me ask you about the constitutionality of these tariffs. As you know, the Constitution, right there in Article 1, Section 8, makes it very clear, “the Congress shall have the power to lay and collect taxes, duties, imposts and excises.” Congress has the power to impose tariffs, not the president. And the president has cited this 1977 emergency law that doesn't mention tariffs. This is a law about sanctions, about seizing foreign assets. So, how concerned are you, and are you prepared to defend this in court? As you know, there's already at least one court challenge to the constitutionality of these tariffs.

LUTNICK: The president knows the law. The president's general counsels know the law. They understand this, that Congress has passed law that is gave the president the ability to protect our national security. We need to make medicine in America. If you don't think that's national security, you're not thinking it through. We need to make semiconductors in America. We need steel and aluminum in America. We need to manufacture in America. If we just run gigantic trade deficits and sell our soul to the rest of the world, eventually we are going to be the worker for the rest of the world. We're going to be the thinker for the rest of the world, but they're going to manufacture. And if some day they say, gee, we're not sending it to you, we'll be nothing.

So, I think the president has national security in mind, and he's here to protect America. We need to reshore these things. And we all know it.

KARL: Sir – sir, we’re –

LUTNICK: It is vital for us to reshore it, and we know it.

KARL: Mr. Secretary, we’re – we’re – we're really out of time, but a very quick question, how concerned are you about what's happening to the U.S. dollar? We have seen the dollar at its – at its – you know, having its worst week in three years. There are concerns about a weakening dollar because of – because of all of this uncertainty. How concerned are you about that?

LUTNICK: I – I am not – I am not concerned about it. We are focused on our tariff policy. We are focused – we have so many countries coming in to negotiate with us.

KARL: OK.

LUTNICK: The president has given us the ability, let's go get these great deals done. And we're on it. And the president is on it. And we're really, really focused on delivering the best thing for the American people.

KARL: All right, Secretary Howard Lutnick, thank you very much for joining us. Appreciate your time.

Coming up, Senator Elizabeth Warren joins us live with her reaction to what you've just heard.

We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): Right before Donald Trump declared that some of his tariffs were off again, he sent out a message to his billionaire buddies. He posted, this is a great time to buy, in all caps.

Was that market manipulation? Was it corruption in plain sight?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Senator Elizabeth Warren this week talking about the comments from President Trump that dramatically moved the stock market this week, and Senator Warren joins me right now.

Senator Warren, let me get right to what we just heard from Secretary of Commerce Lutnick. We had this exemption on all electronics, and he said that the reason is because they're going to impose new tariffs in the coming months. What do you sense? What's going on here?

WARREN: Look, there is no tariff policy. It's just all chaos and corruption. That's all we have going on. And how can you believe any of these guys? What did Donald Trump tweet out all in caps? I will not back down. How many hours was that? 24 hours, 30 hours, before he turned around and backed down.

They talk about an emergency. They've got a 10 percent tariff on basically every country in the world everywhere. What's the emergency that we have with Belgium or the emergency we have with South Korea?

So, look, these guys are into chaos and into corruption, and this is the reason that it is time for Congress to step up and to say, under the authority that the president is currently using by declaring these national emergencies, no. The law says specifically Congress can just say, there's no national emergency across the board here, and revoke that authority from the president.

That will mean we can go back to having actually a real tariff policy. Congress will have its position in place, and then we can negotiate where we need to negotiate, but we got to stop this craziness.

KARL: I understand that you want to, effectively, repeal, if I have it right, the 1977 law that they're using to justify this.

WARREN: No, no, no.

KARL: No. To repeal the --

WARREN: I just want to use the law.

KARL: Yes. Yes.

WARREN: That's right. And use the part that says, no, when the president declares an emergency, it is then up to Congress to say, OK, by standing by, or to say, no, there is not the kind of emergency that you have declared.

KARL: OK.

WARREN: I want us to follow the law.

KARL: OK, so -- but that law does not mention the power to tariff, and as you heard me also ask the secretary of commerce, the Constitution itself makes it clear that the power to impose duties, tariffs, lies with Congress. There's also a constitutional challenge here.

WARREN: Right.

KARL: Do you think the courts are going to step in here?

WARREN: The courts may step in here, but we don't have to wait for the courts to step in here. Look, every Democrat is ready to go, to push back and take away from the president the power he's now exercising and the chaos he's now creating. The question is whether or not the Republicans will join us in this.

There will be a vote in about 15 days, and the Republicans can either decide that their entire job is to do nothing but bow down to Donald Trump, or the Republicans in Congress can say that their job is to stand up for the American people and to stand up for the American economy and roll back what Donald Trump is doing.

And you know, I just want to underscore here. We talk about what's happening in the stock market, talk about what's happening in the bond market. But a lot of economists are saying and a lot of folks on Wall Street is that we're headed toward a recession.

And that recession will be felt one family at a time all across this country. Prices will go up and people will lose their jobs. It will be felt by every small business across this country. Many people get hit in recessions and are never able to fully recover.

It is time for Congress right now to step into the emergency that Donald Trump has created, use our own powers and roll back this chaos and opportunities for corruption that Donald Trump is now exploiting.

KARL: So, more broadly, can you help me understand where Democrats stand on the issues of terrorists themselves? Not the -- not the back and forth, but on the issue of tariffs as an instrument of U.S. economic policy?

Let me read you just a couple quotes from some leading Democrats.

Governor of Colorado, Jared Polis: Tariffs are bad outright because they lead to higher prices.

Minnesota governor, obviously, former vice presidential candidate, Tim Waltz: Every economist, conservative or liberal, will tell you tariffs just simply don't work.

J.B. Pritzker, the governor of Illinois: Tariffs are a tax -- a tax on working families, a tax on everyday necessities.

I'm old enough to remember when it was Democrats that were pushing for tariffs as a way to protect American jobs and American industries. And I know you've been in favor of tariffs before -- again, not the way Trump is doing it.

So what -- where do Democrats stand on this fundamental issue: tariffs, good or bad?

WARREN: So -- well, I think that -- I think Democrats are entirely united that Donald Trump's across-the-board tariffs are bad. They make no economic sense.

But that doesn't mean there aren't specific cases where tariffs make a lot of sense. If you have a plan in mind, a goal in mind, tariffs can be a tool in the economic toolbox.

But remember the underlying here, and I think -- I think you're right to focus on prices and costs.

What did Donald Trump say on, day one? He said on day one, he would lower prices. That's what he ran on. Once he got elected, his first interview, he said, the reason he won is because he said on day one, he would lower prices.

He's six weeks in when someone points out to him that the tariff policy he's pursuing is likely to raise prices and he said he couldn't care less.

And that's the problem we've got. Donald Trump and the Republicans are -- it's like they've taken a five gallon bucket of paint and just thrown it across the economy and said, there, that'll take care of everything.

They are trying to put tariffs in place on every country, on virtually every product that they export to the United States, and they're trying to do it all at once, with no policy in mind.

So I hear from a small business here in Massachusetts who says, gosh, I'm a -- I'm a fabricator. I bring in raw materials from other countries. I then make my product here in the United States and export it to other countries. He said, what Donald Trump is doing just completely destroys my business, I just close up shop. That's all I can do.

Donald Trump doesn't care about costs for families, doesn't care about what this does for small businesses. Instead, he's off trying to make Republicans bend a knee and say whatever he wants them to say and trying to get world leaders to suck up to him.

Congress has the ability to put a stop to that and we need to put a stop to it now.

KARL: All right. Senator Elizabeth Warren, thank you very much for your time this morning.

Up next, a ubiquitous presence on television, unafraid of controversy, sounding off on everything from sports to pop culture to politics. ESPN's Stephen A. Smith joins us here exclusively in a moment. He says he's thinking about 2028. We'll find out why.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHEN SMITH, HOST OF ESPN'S "FIRST TAKE": Nobody is calling out the President Donald Trump. I will. And I'm not going to call him names and all of this stuff, like stupid folks on the left doing. Engaging in incendiary rhetoric is unnecessary, it's immature and it's uncalled for. He's the president of the United States, treat him with the respect that he deserves, but in the same breath, call him to the carpet for stuff that he's doing.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: All right, that was Stephen A. Smith, host of ESPN's "First Take." He's one of the most, maybe the most listened to sports commentator in America lately. He's been talking a lot about politics and this week, he opened the door to a possible run for president in 2028. So joining me now, Stephen A. Smith, thank you very much for being here on "This Week." So --

SMITH: Happy to be here.

KARL: We'll get to your possible political future in a second. But you said when Trump got elected, we should give him a chance. How's it going? I mean, what's your take on where Trump is now at day 80 plus?

SMITH: Well, I don't like what I'm seeing, but I'm not surprised. I mean, this whole tariff war situation is utterly ridiculous. I mean, my attitude was, is that he should have immediately targeted China and not every nation on the planet for crying out loud, just throwing tariffs at everybody. Ultimately, he dialed that back as we saw over the last few days. And folks on the right are up in arms basically, I should say, I mean positively, essentially saying that that was the plan all along.

There doesn't appear to be a plan. Let's be -- let's be very, very clear about that. It seems to be a bit very haphazard and it's just thrown against the wall to see what will stick. But in the end, what you have to applaud them for is for trying something. We're spending about $2 trillion more than we're raking in. We're losing our credit rating. There's a lot of stuff that's going on in the United States of America, financially, economically, that has been tinkering towards disaster and somebody had to do something.

And so when you look at it from that standpoint, I, I can understand the need for tariffs as Senator Elizabeth Warren had articulated. But in the end, what it comes down to is that it does seem to be a bit haphazard, right? And it seemed geared towards large businesses when we all know small businesses is what makes this country thrive. And I don't see him targeting that nearly enough. But we shall see.

KARL: I mean this is one thing he’s been consistent on forever. He's been saying, America gets ripped off in trade. He's been an advocate of tariffs –

SMITH: Yes.

KARL: Even before he was an advocate of, you know, stopping immigration. What about this idea that we can bring back American manufacturing to – you know, through tariffs? I mean is that – is that realistic? Is it plausible?

SMITH: Well, listen, there are better minds than me that can answer that question. I didn’t – I can’t see that happening. I think they’ve – they’ve said that we've lost over 5 million manufacturing jobs over the last 20 plus years or so. I don't know if that's coming back, particularly with the age of AI, ChatGPT and other things coming in – into the forefront. I just can't see that happening.

But again, if that's the song that you want to sing to the American public, to the constituency out there that you think is going to vote for you, he seems very convincing in letting people know what he feels in getting them to see his way of thinking. But I think it's a product – a by-product, rather, of the Democratic Party and the fact that they don't seem to have any mission, any vision, any kind of leadership. They seem redalist (ph) to say the least. And now it’s at a point where they’re getting mocked religiously.

And so, as a result of that, you're going to look at him, and regardless of the troubles that you think he might bring forth, unless things become disastrous economically, the fact of the matter is, the American people have already said during the last election, he's a bit more normal, or closer to normal than the Democratic Party. And that's where the real problem lies. It’s not a two – it might be a two-party system, but there's only one party running this country right now because the Democrats have no muscle whatsoever.

KARL: Well, let me ask you about the Democrats. So – so, Elizabeth Warren talked about getting Congress to stop him. I mean that's not really going to go anywhere. You got the House that's controlled by – by the Republicans. So is the Senate. He's not going to sign anything into law.

And then we have Gretchen Whitner, who’s talked about as a possible candidate for president. She – she's tried to engage Trump. She was in the Oval Office. I'm sure you saw this. I mean maybe we can bring up the – the picture.

SMITH: Yes.

KARL: At one point she seemed like she was trying to hide behind her own, you know, her own binder as – as Trump was praising her. What did you make of Whitmer trying to engage Trump?

SMITH: Well, listen, she's the governor of Michigan. She has no choice but to do that. And anybody that thinks otherwise is just being foolish and immature and childish. The fact is, is that she’s the governor of a state in the United States of America. You need to do business with the federal government. He's the president of the United States. You don't get to circumvent him.

So, as a result, you have to be an adult in the room and be prepared to do business. And anybody that would encourage her to do otherwise is just being utterly ridiculous.

KARL: Well, let me – well, let me –

SMITH: I was watching Bill Maher in real time – I'm sorry.

KARL: But let me ask you, though –

SMITH: All right.

KARL: She was there while he was signing these executive orders, basically asking his Justice Department to investigate, you know, people that – that had criticized him. Should she have used that opportunity, she is there, to actually speak up on that?

SMITH: Probably so. I mean, again, but the real issue is, is that whatever it takes to get business done is what we need to be focused on. Whatever her business is, with that particular issue, her particular state, I understand that.

The bigger picture here is that Elizabeth Warren was just on with you. You're going to have a multitude of Democratic representatives on with you. They talk and they talk and they talk, but what can they do? They position themselves to do absolutely nothing. I didn't hear anything about tariffs from Democrats before the election. Trump had been preaching about this for the longest time.

The way people decry his strategy, he's been bloviating about that. They said nothing about it. Instead, they talked about everything from woke culture to cancel culture, to abortion rights and all of this other stuff.

KARL: So –

SMITH: But that wasn't going to win the election. And that's what we have to look at. What is it going – what is it going to take to get the job done? That's why somebody who’s a sports analyst, for crying out loud, is in the doggone polls.

KARL: Yes.

SMITH: It’s not – it’s not – it’s not somebody big upping me, it's an indictment against the Democratic Party that doesn't have leadership and doesn't have a vision. And it's sad.

KARL: You know – you know, I saw you mentioned Bill Mahar. I saw Steve Bannon was on with Bill Maher, and he was asked what Democrat he worries about.

SMITH: Yes.

KARL: And you were the only name he mentioned as a Democrat he’d be worried about.

So, are you – are you really – are you really thinking about running for president? Is this something you – you think you’d be –

SMITH: Listen, I've been – I have no choice because I've had elected officials, and I'm not going to give their names, elected officials coming up to me. I've had folks who are pundits come up to me. I've had folks that got a lot of money, billionaires and others, have talked to me about exploratory committees and things of that nature. I'm not a politician. I've never had a desire to be a politician. I just signed a contract extension with ESPN. I am very, very happy with my day job.

KARL: A pretty good one too.

SMITH: I'm very happy. My boss is a pretty damn good one. That’s right, it’s a pretty damn good contract. I couldn't be happier.

But here’s the reality, people – literally, people have walked up to me, including my own pastor for crying out loud, who has said to me, you don't know what God has planned for you. At least show the respect to the people who believe in you, who respect you, who believe that you can make a difference in this country to leave the door open for anypossibilities --

KARL: So --

SMITH: -- two to three years down the line. And that's what I’ve decided to do.

But again, whether it's Wes Moore -- Governor Wes Moore who I know, or Governor Josh Shapiro from Pennsylvania who I know, Andrew Cuomo, who I had the pleasure of interviewing, who's trying to get back in things be the mayor of new -- be the next mayor of New York, et cetera, I see a lot of people that obviously and clearly are more qualified than me.

But in the same breath, when you think about what Trump is getting away with, when you think about what -- you brought up about Steve Bannon who's trying to be slick because he's looking at a non-political individual like myself, looking at me as a populist, but you -- you better be careful what you ask for because some of the stuff that Trump and the right has been trying to get away with, like circumventing the 22nd Amendment of the Constitution, talking about how there could be a third term.

Excuse me, be careful what you wish for --

KARL: Yeah.

SMITH: -- because if any GOP member, if any Republican supports that, I don't want to hear a word out of their mouth ever again about the -- following Constitution, the Constitution, the Constitution.

That's what they've been living off for years, and then you're talking about circumventing the 22nd Amendment, and you think that's cool?

No way. That's not -- that's not something that we -- we should stand for.

So I would hope somebody else would step up that's more qualified than me, but if it has to come down to me, it is something I would consider. Yes, I would, because I don't mind the thought of tussling with these folks at all on the left or the right. All of them disgust me to be quite honest with you.

KARL: All right. Stephen A. Smith, when you come back on the show, we'll have you, we'll -- we'll continue to talk about this. I appreciate it.

SMITH: Anytime.

KARL: All right. Thank you. Thank you.

When we return, how did Michigan Governor Gretchen Whitmer end up in the Oval Office as President Trump held court on a slew of orders that she doesn't support?

The roundtable is here to tackle that and much more when we come back.

I'll say thank you.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I'm not going to have time for retribution.

PAM BONDI, ATTORNEY GENERAL: There will never be an enemy's list within the Department of Justice.

KASH PATEL, FBI DIRECTOR: There will be no politicization at the FBI. There will be no retributive actions taken by any FBI should I be confirmed as the FBI director.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Well, as it turned out this week, the president proved that he's got plenty of time for retribution. He's now taking aim at people who served in his administration during his first term. The roundtable on that and more when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Let's bring in the Roundtable. Former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, Former RNC Chair Reince Priebus, Dispatch Senior Editor Sarah Isgur, and ABC News Contributing Political Correspondent and Politico Capitol Hill Bureau Chief Rachael Bade getting the prize for the longest title on here.

(LAUGH)

KARL: But Sarah, let me start with you. The so-called retribution executive orders, this was pretty extraordinary, targeting Chris Krebs who ran the Cybersecurity effort at the -- in the Trump administration and Miles Taylor, who of course was anonymous. He was a former Chief of Staff at the Department of Home Security. Krebs, he wants the DOJ to investigate, in part because he said that the election wasn't stolen.

SARAH ISGUR, DISPATCH SENIOR EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Right. I mean, for those of us who are on Kash Patel's list, we're sort of checking our mail a little more frequently than we were before. But these orders are meant to chill people who disagree with the president, particularly those on the right, conservatives and Republicans and former Republicans, but they are losing some altitude. The more law firm executive orders they put out by the way, means the less effect they actually have.

He, of course, tried to ban the Associated Press from the Oval Office. They won a huge court case just this week.

KARL: Decisively.

ISGUR: Where the judge just kind of was like, this is a joke, right? You don't have a right to be in the Oval Office, but you also can't ban someone from being in the Oval Office because of their viewpoint, because they won't call something the Gulf of America. So, I think these are bad. I'm not sure how effective they are.

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, first of all, these issues of security clearances, when you get a security clearance, the DOJ is not just measuring access, they're also measuring trustworthiness. And I've got to tell you, if I was -- when I was Chief of Staff, if I started writing op-eds to The New York Times saying, I am the Trump resistance -- I'm the resistance within the Trump administration while serving the president. He was Chief of Staff.

KARL: This is Miles Taylor you're talking about.

PRIEBUS: Miles Davis. He would --

KARL: Not Miles Davis, that would be --

(LAUGH)

PRIEBUS: He was Chief of Staff with DHS.

(CROSSTALK)

ISGUR: This isn't about security clearance. They said they were opening investigations.

KARL: Yeah. He is directing the DOJ to investigate.

PRIEBUS: Trump is not --

ISGUR: They didn't even have security clearances.

PRIEBUS: The thing I agree with you is that Trump is not blurring the lines. He's drawing the lines and he is drawing the lines for everyone to see that if you're going to serve at a -- in a capacity --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: But you don't think it is appropriate, do you, Reince? I mean, you don't think this was all --

ISGUR: But --

PRIEBUS: I do. I think as far as Miles, yeah, as far as that Chief of Staff --

KARL: They should open (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Chris Krebs because he didn't say the election was stolen.

PRIEBUS: I don't know enough about the Chris Krebs --

KARL: Because he told truth?

PRIEBUS: -- issue. But I will tell you, if you have a Chief of Staff in a department that writes anonymous op-eds against the president --

KARL: They should be investigated by the department --

BRAZILE: Can we come back to reality here?

PRIEBUS: He should not have a security clearance?

KARL: But that's not --

BRAZILE: Can we come back to reality?

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Can we come back to reality? We're talking about something that happened in the past. And I understand why the president may dislike them, but to use the American -- the taxpayers' money or whatever to investigate these individuals or to prohibit them to do anything is just stupid. He's in a season of revenge and retaliation. He should be in the season of bringing the American people hope. To give the American people relief from the prices, from the everyday things that they care about.

PRIEBUS: The president can ask for an investigation and anything he wants to ask.

BRAZILE: The president -- I understand --

KARL: He signed an executive order.

PRIEBUS: He can do that.

BRAZILE: He has the power of the pen, but it's stupid.

BADE: Isn't the Justice Department supposed to be independent?

PRIEBUS: Are you saying that the president --

BRAZILE: It is absolutely stupid.

PRIEBUS: Wait. You can say -- you can have that opinion. But are you saying that the president of the United States can't request an investigation on anyone?

KARL: For somebody telling the truth about --

BRAZILE: For somebody who told the truth about an election?

PRIEBUS: For someone betraying his job and serving the president of the United States?

BRAZILE: Betraying the trust of the president --

KARL: All right. All right. Let me --

BADE: He never alleges a -- can I just say this is what President Trump wanted. I mean, talk about a distraction from the tariff disaster this week. I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Because you wrote something very provocative this week, Rachael. We're starting --

BADE: Not me.

KARL: You. Yes.

BRAZILE: It's called good trouble.

KARL: Given what's happened on tariffs, given that the nervousness that a lot of Republicans have and certainly a lot of the president's well-heeled supporters have had about what's happening in the markets as a result of what the president has done, risk of recession and everything, are we starting to see some breakdown among Republicans, some Republicans finally willing to at least say what Trump is doing is wrong?

BADE: Yes. I think this was a big week for Donald Trump and not in a good way. I mean, there has been this sort of narrative since the election that he basically defies gravity, right? He runs roughshod over his own party, foreign adversaries, or allies, I mean, universities, law firms, et cetera. This week he's the one who got checked and not just on the tariffs. Obviously he took a step back on those after all indications were that he was not going to have a pause, that he wasn't going to do exemptions.

KARL: My policies will never change.

BADE: Exactly. And then all of a sudden the markets spoke and he's doing a 180. But it wasn't just that. It was actually the leadup to that that was most interesting to me. I mean, there were a lot of people who were part of a MAGA coalition who for the first time were really coming out and pushing back against him.

I mean, Elon Musk is in the Oval Office, he's in the cabinet room during these cabinet meetings, and he was out there pushing back against Trump's tariff policies, number one, and attacking --

KARL: Zero.

BADE: Attacking Peter Navarro, his top trade adviser, calling him Peter Retardo. I mean, like the fact that this is even happening just shows something is going on. And meanwhile on Capitol Hill, I mean, this was sort of not -- you know, it wasn't big in the headlines, but there was a big budget vote on Capitol Hill this week. They eventually got the votes to do it, but Donald Trump wasn't the one who got those holdouts to yes.

It was the speaker and the majority leader in the Senate. He actually met with a lot of holdouts, tried to convince them to vote a certain way, and they told him no. What's going on? Bad week for the president.

BRAZILE: Name names. John Kennedy from Louisiana spoke up. Rand Paul from Kentucky spoke up. Ted Cruz spoke up.

KARL: Thom Tillis of North Carolina.

BRAZILE: And Mr. Grassley.

KARL: And Chuck Grassley.

BRAZILE: Who has a legislation with Maria Cantwell from Washington.

BADE: Huge ally.

KARL: What about, Sarah, what about the Supreme Court? We've seen -- he's had some setbacks at the Supreme Court, and this issue of tariffs, I mean, you heard me talk about the constitutionality, the question of constitutionality with our guests. Do you think this is going to go anywhere, and will this Supreme Court back up Trump's tariffs?

ISGUR: The administration has asked the Supreme Court to step in in 10 different cases to decide what the status quo will be as the litigation is pending, and six of those have been decided so far. It's been about a 3-3 record for this administration. But what's interesting is the cases that they're losing on. Really, they've lost two 9-0 cases from the Supreme Court on immigration in particular.

The cases they've been winning have been on pausing grants, on money issues. So we still have birthright citizenship out there, for instance. The tariff question is a huge one, because I have not heard anyone from this administration defend the constitutionality of these tariffs. Congress didn't given the president the power. Congress can't give the president the power. And so I wonder if they're just sort of biding their time hoping the Supreme Court will stop him and save them politically, then they can blame those guys as we've seen Biden do, Trump do, and Obama do when they have a policy that would make their base happy but it's maybe not popular nationwide.

KARL: I mean, Reince, this is -- there is a real constitutional issue here.

PRIEBUS: I think there could be. I just don't know -- we're not -- I'm not an expert in what the tariff constitutionality process is. But I know enough about politics to know that the difference between last week and this week is a totally different universe. And as I said last week, there's going to be an announcement on deals, there was.

And what do have a week later? We've got deals. We have an advance of 90 days and we've got Scott Bessent who has emerged to be in charge of these --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: We haven't had any deals announced yet. I don't think (inaudible).

PRIEBUS: Well, they're not yet announced.

KARL: OK.

PRIEBUS: But I do believe that they're on the cusp of --

KARL: Are they going to be ratified by Congress? Because I remember the (inaudible)

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: -- all these countries to the table. 90 percent of our trade imbalance is confined into 15 countries.

KARL: Yeah.

PRIEBUS: And these countries actually are coming to them. It's not the other way around.

KARL: What're saying --

PRIEBUS: So I think that it's been a big difference (inaudible) --

BRAZILE: What you're saying is the phone is ringing and the president is waiting to answer the phone, so that he can cut individual deals with individual states, so that the penguins will be saved in the country that they have (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: China is not picking up the phone.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: You know who is going to be saved?

BRAZILE: And McDonald Island will be free to the United States tariff.

PRIEBUS: The middle-class jobs.

ISGUR: This is wild, by the way --

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: Why do you think Gretchen Whitmer (ph) went to the White House?

BRAZILE: Well, you want to know about that?

ISGUR: This is why conservatives have always been against tariffs. They're corrupting. It allows a president or the government, or even Congress to decide favorites, to decide --

(CROSSTALK)

ISGUR: -- I will get the deal, but you don't get a deal.

KARL: So, about Whitmer, what'd you make of her hiding in the Oval Office?

BRAZILE: First of all, I thought it was a legitimate reason why she went over to the White House, and that was to save the people of Michigan.

KARL: Yeah.

BRAZILE: They just had a huge ice storm and she wanted the president to declare it as a state of emergency. She also went because of the tariffs on the auto industry and so forth. Look, if you go into the White House own it. I went in the White House under George W. Bush. I had to own it. You own it. You don't try to escape it. You tell the world.

KARL: You don't hide behind (inaudible).

BRAZILE: Tell (ph) I went in there to save those levies and to save my hometown. I would do it again and if Katrina happened again.

KARL: You are right. Rachael?

BADE: She absolutely got punked. Big Gretch gets punked; that's the headline right now. I mean, this was intentional. Somebody in the West Wing said, OK, this woman is a potential threat to the party in the future. She won Michigan by what, double-digits, 10 points, something like this last time she was up and we got to put her in a bad way. And I mean they did.

But, this underscores the tension in the Democratic Party right now where you have these sort of Democratic governors.

BRAZILE: Yeah, I agree.

BADE: They have these Trump blues, as my colleague calls it. They've got to work with the president. They have to work with him on local issues. But that's out of vogue right now. I mean, the progressives want you to fight Trump and that's why she is --

BRAZILE: You could do both.

BADE: -- putting up the folder and hiding her face.

BRAZILE: I think you could do both.

PRIEBUS: She's trying to thread the needle.

KARL: (Inaudible)?

PRIEBUS: She's trying to thread the needle between running for president, managing her state, and a Democratic Party that's a 25 percent --

KARL: I'm not sure she's running for president, but we'll find out.

PRIEBUS: -- somewhere below to (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: We got to take a break. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)