'This Week' Transcript 7-30-23: Gov. Chris Sununu, Rep. Dan Goldman and Actor Matthew McConaughey

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, July 30, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Alleged coverup.

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Indict me. I consider it actually a great badge of honor.

KARL: Donald Trump hit with new charges in the classified documents case as he awaits another possible indictment over January 6th.

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If the election becomes a referendum on what document was left by the toilet at Mar-a-Lago, we are not going to win.

KARL: The Hunter Biden plea deal unravels.

SEN. TED CRUZ (R-TX): This deal stunk from day one.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): This is a prosecution being done in a fair way.

KARL: And the speaker of the House floats impeachment for President Biden.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): We will follow this all the way to the end. And this is going to rise to an impeachment inquiry.

REP. PETE AGUILAR (D-CA): This is just a complete distraction.

KARL: This morning, all the legal and political impact with Republican Governor Chris Sununu, Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman, and analysis from our powerhouse roundtable.

Plus --

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY, ACTOR & GREENLIGHTS GRANT INITIATIVE CO-FOUNDER: These two extremes have the microphone. We are much less divided than we're being told we are.

KARL: Just a year after the Uvalde massacre, our exclusive conversation with Matthew McConaughey on the state of American politics and his initiative to make America's schools safer.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK.

We come on the air this morning after a week of stunning legal developments that are bound to have an impact on the 2024 presidential election. Although just how they will impact the race is unclear. We expected Donald Trump would be indicted last week on charges related to special counsel Jack Smith's January 6th investigation. We expected a federal judge in Delaware would affirm the plea agreement Hunter Biden worked out with federal prosecutors, effectively ending the legal drama, if not the political drama, surrounding the president's son. Instead, Jack Smith dropped entirely new indictments in the classified documents case, alleging a coverup spearheaded by former President Trump. Alleged actions that were both brazen and comically inept.

And the federal judge in Delaware refused to accept the Hunter Biden plea deal, giving Republicans even more ammunition to make allegations against President Biden's family central to the 2024 campaign.

Meanwhile, this week Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy had nothing to say about the new coverup allegations against Trump, but he did float the possibly of moving forward with an impeachment inquiry against President Biden.

Finally, overnight we learned that Trump’s super PAC spent more than $40 million on legal fees related to the many investigations he now faces. We'll explore all of it this morning.

Chief Justice Department correspondent Pierre Thomas leads us off.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And we're going to make America great again.

PIERRE THOMAS, ABC NEWS CHIEF JUSTICE CORRESPONDENT: An epic battle intensifying this week between the Justice Department and former President Donald Trump. Trump and his legal team had been bracing for a new indictment from special counsel Jack Smith regarding Trump's role on January 6th. The Trump team and Smith even holding a critical last-minute meeting on Thursday as team Trump tried to convince the special counsel not to indict.

And then dramatically, that same day, only hours later, Smith announces new charges against Trump, placing the former president at the center of an attempted coverup relating to these classified documents Trump had taken from the White House. Smith adding to the 37 counts regarding the alleged mishandling of classified information and obstruction levied against Trump just last month. Now, in a superseding indictment, Trump charged with another count of illegally retaining a top-secret government. The Special Council now claiming that he’s recovered the document that Trump was allegedly waiving around at Bedminster about a potential attack against Iran.

TRUMP: This is secret information. But look, look at this. This was done by the military, given to me.

THOMAS: And in an explosive new allegation, Smith's charging that Trump, his private aide, Walt Nauta, and a new defendant, Mar-a-Lago’s property manager, were involved in a conspiracy of obstruction. The indictment alleging that Trump, Nauta and property manager Carlos De Oliveira attempted to destroy surveillance footage that may show Nauta removing classified documents from a Mar-a-Lago storage closet at Trump’s direction.

President Trump, who says he’s being harassed by Smith, claims he’s unphased.

JOHN FREDERICKS: If, going forward, right, you get these indictments, you get convicted and sentenced, does that stop your campaign for president?

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Not – not at all. There's nothing in the Constitution to say that it could.

THOMAS: Trump's new charges part of a week full of legal twists intersecting with the 2024 campaign. Hunter Biden's anticipated plea deal with the Justice Department collapsing after a judge raises questions.

The deal negotiated for months by Hunter Biden's attorneys and a Trump-appointed lead prosecutor had Biden set to plead guilty to misdemeanor charges of tax evasion, with prosecutors agreeing not to bring charges against Biden for possession of a gun while a drug addict. Now that deal in limbo with the parties scrambling for new language to present to a judge in a month.

In Washington, it sees the new parlor game is how much the legal woes damage the president or Trump politically.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Thanks to Pierre for that report.

Donald Trump was on the campaign trail last night in Erie, Pennsylvania, where he sounded off on the latest charges from special counsel Jack Smith.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: These are ridiculous indictments. They want to damage the leading candidate. By the way, leading by far I have to say.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Our Rachel Scott was there.

Good morning, Rachel.

RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jon, good morning to you.

Trump's legal defense is now the cornerstone of his campaign. He uses it as a rallying cry, calling those indictments a badge of honor. The former president going after Republicans on Capitol Hill, insisting if they do not pursue investigations into President Biden and his family then they should be fired. And he’s also lashing out at this very crowded Republican field, insisting his rivals, including Florida Governor Ron DeSantis, are wasting millions of dollars on money that he says should be going to help Republicans win in the general election.

But, of course, Trump is spending much more on legal fees than just about anything else. Sources tell ABC News the SuperPAC supporting the former president has spent $40 million on legal fees in just a matter of months. And all of this comes as the investigations into Trump only intensify. He's now faced with this unprecedented challenge of having to balance conflicting campaign events with court appearances and hearings. He's making it clear he still is in this race and he is the frontrunner. But for the most part, his rivals are hesitant to go after him, clearly worried about turning away the voters they would need to win the Republican nomination, Jon.

KARL: All right, Rachel Scott, thank you.

And joining us now from Iowa is New Hampshire’s Republican Governor Chris Sununu.

Governor Sununu, we see these latest charges from Jack Smith. The allegations here are pretty brazen in terms of allegedly destroying evidence. How is it that so few Republicans are expressing concerns about this?

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU, (R) NEW HAMPSHIRE: Well, it's kind of the boy who cried wolf, right? I mean we’ve -- we've seen the indictments, one, two, three times. We expect more to come. The average voter right now just considers them all to be politically driven. And – and whether that was the intention of the Department of Justice or not, they’re -- they're allowing Donald Trump to play this victim card very, very well. But, ultimately, it – it doesn't -- it doesn't pan out. Six months from now it's going to be a very different story. I think the reality is that Donald Trump cannot actually win the vote in November of ‘24. He can get the nomination, but he can’t actually close the deal against Biden. So, if you’re going to support Trump, you've going to hand it to the Biden and Kamala Harris administration. That is not a good thing. And that’s why I think a lot of these other candidates are going to have an opportunity to surge.

We’re going to narrow that field down. It’s not going to be 13 people going into Iowa and New Hampshire by any means. And then definitely by Super Tuesday, I think it’s a one-on-one race and the former president loses. I mean that’s just how the math is – is ultimately going to play out because the majority of Republicans don’t want Donald Trump. If you look at the polls, he’s under 40 percent. In New Hampshire he’s at about 42, 41 percent. Here in Iowa, which I'm visiting, I'm the governor of New Hampshire, not Iowa, but – so, when you look at that, it’s not what he has, it’s what he doesn’t have, right? And – and again, in the next six months, it’s only going to get worse.

KARL: All right, so – so you decided not to run for president, but you are also dedicating yourself to ensuring that the Republicans nominate somebody else, somebody not named Trump. What are you hearing in Iowa? You were there at the Lincoln Day Dinner with all the candidates out there. Trump seemed to get a warm reception, at least from what we saw. What were you hearing from Republicans?

SUNUNU: Well, Trump – Trump got a warm reception, but it was without a doubt. And I think anybody in that room would tell you, it was the worst speech. It was the worst 10 minutes. He came out. He read – he read from a binder. He didn’t look up. He didn’t smile. It was – it was absolutely dead speech.

And this is not the Donald Trump of 2016. Don’t fool yourself. And as more and more folks realize that, he doesn’t have the energy, he doesn’t have the fast ball, he basically is droning on for 90 minutes on his long form speeches about his legal battles as opposed to talking about the future of this country, solving the problems of this country, which is what all the other candidates are doing.

So, at some point, look, every -- ever see a soap opera, they get kind of boring. The only thing worse is the rerun of a soap opera, and that’s what he’s bringing, a lot of drama to the table.

The other candidates are doing well. I think Vivek had a -- had a very strong speech. I think Tim Scott. Doug Burgum really connected with folks on kind of that small town feel. He’s the guy that grew up in a small town, on a small farm. That connected with a lot of folks.

So, a lot of the other candidates are showing something. I’m going to give DeSantis a lot of credit. I think he came out early. He took his 10 minutes but didn’t drone on, but really got the crowd fired up.

So, some of these candidates are coming with it to be sure.

KARL: And, as you know, the polls consistently have Trump with that huge lead. I mean one of the latest, Monmouth University, not only has Trump at the top with a, you know, nearly 30-point lead, but also the candidates that are actually taking him on, directly taking him on, are at the bottom. And what -- what -- what is it going to take --

SUNUNU: Well, he --

KARL: -- what’s it going to take to change that dynamic?

SUNUNU: So, a couple things. He is the sitting -- he is an incumbent president. So, anyone who thinks that he wouldn’t be at the top, of course, he was going to be at the top. He’s got the name ID, the recognition, all of that. Again, the fact that the majority of Republicans clear don’t want him, that’s an opportunity.

And then it’s about galvanizing. That’s what it takes. These candidates have got to find out who’s the best of the others, so to say, but they’re all quality candidates, they all bring something a little different to the table.

I think you’ll see three or four of the 12 or 13 that don’t even make the first debate. Maybe five. I think you’ll see three or four stuck in low single digits in late October, November. And there will be a lot of pressure for them to drop.

I think you’ll see four, five, maybe six come into Iowa. Three or four or five maybe come into New Hampshire. And then everything kind of falls from there and you’re down to a one-on-one race.

And that’s the Iowa/New Hampshire opportunity to really filter things out. We -- this is where the conversations are happening, where voters are getting a lot of one-on-one contact. And I think that’s the opportunity for the Republican Party.

KARL: If Trump ends up winning the nomination, will you support this No Labels effort to have a third party candidate?

SUNUNU: No. Look -- no, no. Look, I'm going to make sure Trump isn’t the candidate. I know No Labels is doing their thing. It’s an interesting -- it’s an interesting opportunity given 70 percent of America, not just Republicans, but America doesn’t want Trump or Biden, right? They don’t want either of them on the ballot.

So there’s an amazing -- you call them politically homeless, right? They don’t have a political home, anyone to go to, and that’s the void that I think this No Labels thing would be trying to fill.

So, we’ll see where the (INAUDIBLE) and all that.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: But you don’t see you -- but you don’t see yourself supporting -- but you don’t see yourself supporting that effort even if Trump’s the nominee?

SUNUNU: The Republican nominee is not going to be Donald Trump. And I'll be supporting -- I'll be supporting that candidate (ph) for sure.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: OK. Before you go, I've got to ask you, Kevin McCarthy is raising the possibility of an impeachment inquiry into President Biden. What do you think? Is that what Republicans in Congress should be dedicating their efforts right now to trying to impeach Biden?

SUNUNU: No. No, look, I -- I think that the accusations against Biden, Hunter, and President Biden are very real. They have to play out in court. We have to find out what all the evidence is. Nobody even knows any of that, right?

So, if they’re found guilty of something, that -- that opens up a whole different story because we’re talking potential bribery. That’s an incredibly serious accusation. And so, therefore, if found guilty, yeah, I think Congress should definitely take something up.

But I think they’re really, really far from really figuring out what the realities there are. But those are very serious accusations that have to be followed up for sure.

But, look, America has got amazing problems around mental health, around the opioid crisis, fighting to secure the border, having somebody in Washington, D.C., have some fiscal sanity because even Republicans don’t do a very good job of that lately. You know, really -- things that really impact everyday lives of Americas. And I’d rather have the focus on those issues. And if the guilty verdict comes out of the Bidens and comes to bear, they can take it up at that, at the appropriate time.

KARL: Right now, a lot of allegations, very few proven allegations.

Governor Sununu, thank you for joining us.

SUNUNU: You bet.

KARL: We're joined now by Democratic Congressman Dan Goldman of New York, a former federal prosecutor who also served as the lead counsel in Donald Trump's first impeachment.

Congressman Goldman, thank you for joining us.

Taking a look at these new charges, these new superseding indictment from Jack Smith, how serious are they?

REP. DAN GOLDMAN (D-NY): Well, it’s very serious, less because of the additional defendant I think but more because it demonstrates Donald Trump’s knowledge of what his conduct was and how wrong it was, and that he was trying to obstruct the investigation that he knew was ongoing.

That is quintessential consciousness of guilt, which shows that he knew what he was doing was wrong, and so, we already had a very detailed, devastating indictment and now, you layer on the knowledge that Trump shows about the illegality of his conduct and it just gets worse for him.

KARL: There’s so much for voters to try to absorb in – in all these sprawling cases. I mean you have the New York district attorney case. You have potentially new charges coming out of Fulton County, Georgia. You have the documents case. And whatever’s going to come on January 6th from Jack Smith. And not to mention all the civil cases. What – what – cutting through all of it, what – what is the most important for people to be watching? What -- and what is the most dire threat to Trump of all of this stuff?

GOLDMAN: Well, I think the most important thing to take away is that Donald Trump does not believe that the law applies to him. He simply believes he's above the law and that he can do whatever he wants. We saw that in the first impeachment when he abused the power of the presidency in order to extort a foreign government, a democracy, in – in to helping him with his campaign, and has continued on in full force because no one has yet held him accountable. The Republicans in Congress refused to hold him accountable and he feels like he is completely invincible. But the takeaway from all four cases, from the civil cases is that Donald Trump simply thinks he's above the law.

KARL: I want to turn to the other major development this week involving Hunter Biden. Were you surprised to see the judge in Delaware reject the plea deal? Not reject it, but not accept it.

GOLDMAN: Well, right. I think that there's been a lot of hey made of this. But this is a fairly typical process that goes through. This was an unusual agreement, in part because it's a 24-month agreement, and there's the possibility that Donald Trump will be president. And we know from his presidency how much he weaponized the Department of Justice to go after his enemies and to favor his associates. And so Hunter Biden’s lawyers are concerned that Donald Trump, if he were to get the presidency, would weaponize the Department of Justice. And so there is an added calculation to this, but the fact of the matter is that this is a Trump-appointed U.S. attorney, a Trump-appointed judge. This is a very independent and thorough investigation.

And I think that whatever happens in the Hunter Biden case, we can rest assured that it was done based solely on the facts and the evidence, and that there was nothing else to it.

KARL: But, if – and you’ve kind of touch on why this was in there, but the line in the plea agreement that is most important and most controversial is this one.

It says: The United States agrees not to criminally prosecute Biden, Hunter Biden, outside of the terms of this agreement or any federal -- for any federal crimes encompassed by the attached statements of facts.

And the attached statement of facts goes into all of his foreign income that he received, that’s the center of what Republicans have been talking about -- from Russia, from China, from Romania.

Was that too broad, I mean, to have basically a blanket immunity from anything related to all of that income?

GOLDMAN: No, because that’s what they’ve been investigating for five years, and they ultimately determined they could not charge him. And for whatever reason, we don’t know, the House Republicans have no idea what the actual evidence is that David Weiss has, and this was an exhaustive five-year investigation.

And so, what Hunter Biden’s lawyer wanted was some confirmation that they will not charge him for any crimes related to the investigation that they un -- that they underwent. That’s fairly typical and oftentimes, prosecutors and defense lawyers go back and forth about what degree of immunity a defendant will get.

But let’s remember, this is not as if it’s a new investigation. This is five years and we had testimony of foreign bank accounts, domestic bank accounts, search warrants, hundreds of --

KARL: So --

GOLDMAN: --- thousands of documents that they pored over and ultimately, they decided they could not charge Hunter Biden with. And that’s how the process should work.

KARL: In light to that, the White House -- White House press secretary this week said that they -- a pardon for Hunter Biden is off the table. But we haven’t heard President Biden rule it out. Do you think a pardon for his son would be a mistake?

GOLDMAN: Yes, and I don’t think there’s any chance that President Biden is going to do that, unlike his predecessor who pardoned all of his friends and anyone who had any access to him. President Biden has restored the integrity of the Department of Justice and I think you see that in this case, where he kept on, and Merrick Garland kept on a Trump-appointed U.S. attorney to investigate the president’s son.

If there is not an indication of the independence of the Department of Justice beyond that, I don’t know what -- what we could look for.

KARL: All right. Congressman Goldman, thank you very much for joining us.

The roundtable is next.

And coming up, my exclusive conversation with Matthew McConaughey.

We’ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP: There's only one candidate, and you know who that candidate is...

(APPLAUSE)

TRUMP: ... who's going to get the job done.

GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We must restore this country to greatness.

SEN. TIM SCOTT, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We must choose greatness over grievance.

NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Our best days are yet to come.

WILL HURD, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is running to stay out of prison. And if we elect...

(BOOING)

HURD: I know. I know. I know. I know. I know. Listen, I know the truth -- the truth is hard.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Those boos are coming from Iowa Republicans at the party's annual Lincoln Day dinner. They clearly didn't want to hear any criticism of Donald Trump.

Now to the roundtable, former DNC chair Donna Brazile; former Trump Justice Department spokesperson Sarah Isgur; Politico senior political columnist Jonathan Martin; and welcome our ABC News contributor, Asma Khalid, also an NPR White House correspondent.

Thank you all for being here.

So, J-Mart, what -- it's like there's no discernible reaction from Republicans...

MARTIN: Yeah.

KARL: ... to this pretty explosive new indictment from Jack Smith?

JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO SENIOR POLITICAL COLUMNIST: Well, I thought the reaction in Iowa to Will Hurd's critique goes to the heart of the non-Trump candidate's challenge in trying to confront Trump. You can't leverage multiple federal indictments against your opponent because your voters are taking the side of your front-runner against the Justice Department.

That puts you in a pretty darn tough spot when you're trying to beat somebody who has been indicted, and there's pretty damning evidence, and you can't use that as a political weapon. Boy, you know, what do you do as a trailing candidate?

Well, you try to work around it, but it's tough to work around it when it's all the press, obviously, is covering. It's all Trump wants to talk about. And so where are you left? We're halfway done with this year now, and the story of the primary has been Trump, Trump, Trump.

It's hard for any of these guys to get oxygen at all. You heard the governor of New Hampshire in that piece say, "Look, eventually, at the end of the year, the field's going to narrow. Our voters will come to their senses." There's no evidence of that happening yet, Jon.

KARL: Yeah, I mean, look at the FiveThirtyEight polling average. Let's bring up this graphic. This is pretty dramatic. This is an average of all the -- you know, the major polls. And you have Trump with 52.4 percent. Nobody else is even close. The real story, besides Trump's strength and growing stronger, is DeSantis's fall.

ASMA KHALID, NPR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Mm-hmm.

KARL: Asma?

KHALID: That's right. I mean, and -- and, look, that's what? That's a 30-plus-point margin that Trump has over any of his other opponents. I am highly skeptical if anybody says -- saying really that there is a lot of potential for some other candidates, including DeSantis, right? Because you look at historical evidence of previous cycles. The closest comparison anybody gives is McCain. But what folks forget is that Trump has the power of incumbency

KARL: Yeah.

MARTIN: Yeah.

KHALID: -- in the way that John McCain didn’t have in 2008, right? So, this is not a John McCain/Ron DeSantis --

KARL: And McCain came back from the dead in 2008.

KHALID: Yep.

KARL: Now, we have DeSantis laying off a third of his -- of his staff.

KHALID: Yeah.

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: DeSantis, the guy who is asleep at the switch?

I mean, are we surprised that DeSantis cannot capture the imagination of the Republican base? At a time when America is still trying to figure out how to heal itself from its past, DeSantis is willing to go out there and essentially say, people benefitted from slavery. Really? Who the hell has he been talking to?

When Tim Scott, his -- one of his opponents -- when you see members of Congress defied Black conservatives saying, stop, stop, stop.

So, I’m not surprised Mike -- Mr. DeSantis is having a problem catching fire. I had to say that because I’m a descendent of slaves. We did not benefit from slavery.

And if Mr. DeSantis cannot wake up and figure out that he needs another message, other than attacking people of color, gay people, trans people, then he is going to continue to fall as a result.

KARL: Yeah, DeSantis he has to start defending these Florida education standards that include this line about talking about the skills that slaves earned under slavery.

Let’s take a look --

BRAZILE: No skills.

KARL: Let's take a look at what Tim Scott had to say about that.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: There's no silver lining in freedom -- in slavery. Slavery was -- it was really about separating families, about mutilating humans, even raping their wives. It was just devastating.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Now, Sarah, here's the thing. So -- first of all, to have a candidate to come out and remind people that slavery is bad --

SARAH ISGUR, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Hot take.

KARL: -- is something else. But DeSantis’ reaction to this has been to attack those Black Republicans and to accuse them of siding with Kamala Harris and the woke Democrats, right?

ISGUR: Look, the substance of the attack has some real problems, right? The national AP standards have nearly the identical language. This has been a political attack.

The problem for the DeSantis team has been that once again he's getting mired down in this fight, instead of the actual numbers that matter here. You know, set aside the poll numbers or any of this other data points that people are looking at, there's one number that I’m focused on from now until Iowa and that's Republican primary voters, who do you think is best or most likely to beat Joe Biden in a general election? As long as Donald Trump is winning that number, nothing else matters.

And when I ask these campaigns, you know, what are you going to do to change that number? Because it doesn't matter about the substance, it doesn’t matter about the indictments. If they think Donald Trump is most likely to beat Joe Biden, that's the candidate.

KHALID: I mean --

ISGUR: And they're not able to turn that around if you are fighting over the AP standards in Florida, and Ron DeSantis having to say, well, I didn't know about it, but it's also an attack from Kamala Harris. Like that is not the line of -- doesn't matter. General election, Donald Trump can't win.

MARTIN: Well, I think this is hard for the pre-Trump GOP to swallow. I had a column this week talking about some of these donor events that take place this summer, and, you know, Aspen and Bohemian Grove, sort of --

KARL: The real people.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Tough assignments -- tough assignments over the summer.

But you these people in the Republican Party, the kind of donor class and what I would call the pre-Trump leaders, the Paul Ryans and Jeb Bushes. And they're pining for anybody else besides Trump.

What I think is hard for them to swallow, John, is that, A, the party has changed, and B, their problem isn't Trump. It's their own voters. Their voters like Trump and Trumpism, and this gap between the old guard and where the party is today seems to get wider and wider every year, and they can't come to terms with that.

The issue isn’t Trump. It's the voters. And the reason we know that is because the rest of this field, A, can't attack Trump for his criminal liability, okay? And, B, it's really hard for them to get any traction on electability because their voters think a would-be felon is their best nominee in the general election. When the voters think that, it's hard to get through.

KHALID: I think the challenge is, and, Sarah, what I was hearing from you is it's wild to hear that so many sort of Republican base voters think that Trump is the best opponent to take on Biden because when you look at some of these indictments, the felony charges and independent voters, that's where this becomes a real liability, right?

ISGUR: The fact that he lost in 2020.

KHALID: Yes, like that is the real liability.

MARTIN: They don’t think he did lose. That was a problem, right?

KARL: They didn’t think he lost, yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

KHALID: And yet -- and so I think there's a disconnect, right?

Like, we had our poll, recently, the NPR/PBS poll and the number of all voters who feel that Donald Trump has done nothing wrong dipped. Meaning, there are more folks in the broad pool of voters, but that doesn't jive with all the Republican base is. So, that becomes a problem as you --

BRAZILE: Well, as long as his contenders -- those who are seeking to become the nominee are not willing to take him on and to address the big -- the other big elephant. The Republicans are no longer talking about the American people. We're talking about one individual in this country, of 330 million people.

We're not talking about the Republicans will do different on climate, what they will do different on the economy, what they will do different on any issue because all we know is Donald Trump is not running to make America great again, he's running to stay out of prison.

KARL: And yet, Donna, the polls show that he, some polls show that he can beat Joe Biden.

BRAZILE: Some --

KARL: And even the polls that have Biden leave, it's in the margin of error.

BRAZILE: But that's because we're very divided country, and it's going to be a close election, it's going to come down to some of my favorite states in America. But at the end of the day, I still believe that he's a bill -- he's a liability.

ISGUR: Donald Trump is more popular among Republicans than Joe Biden is among Democrats, and it's not close. Ask them about the economy, ask about foreign policy, Donald Trump beats Joe Biden, on all of these measures (INAUDIBLE).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: So, we had -- we had -- the -- let's talk about Biden. I mean we had the Hunter Biden plea agreement, basically put on hold at the very least, were you surprised by that?

ISGUR: Oh, I was shocked that we now have another month basically, of this continuing. But right from the beginning, we knew that there was a problem. You have the Hunter Biden team come out, as soon as the indictment was announced and say, these ends --

KARL: The investigation is over.

ISGUR: -- the investigation. And then the guy running, the investigation comes out. He's like, no, it's not. And then none of that was solved for a month.

Now in the hearing itself, we learned a lot about that plea deal, didn't we there was a real disagreement over whether it was going to cover everything Hunter Biden had ever did before now or not. But in the end, what the judge actually sent them home to do their homework on was something totally different. It was about whether the judge herself is going to decide whether Hunter Biden had violated his pre-trial diversion agreement. Totally unheard of, because they're afraid that a Donald Trump Department of Justice will fabricate a reason to revisit this pretrial --

BRAZILE: You know, Donald Trump Justice Department started this investigation. A Republican U.S. attorney is leading this investigation. So, the notion that the Republicans have not had a bite at this apple is full.

KARL: So, we heard from the press secretary at the White House to rule out a pardon for --

BRAZILE: Yes.

KARL: -- Hunter Biden. But I haven't heard Joe Biden say that, you know, Joe Biden, better than any of us.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Let me tell you something, the man I know -- the guy who goes to church every week, if Karine the press secretary came on and said, no pardon, that's off the table, then it's off the table.

KARL: Because there's nothing he cares about more than his son.

BRAZILE: He loves his family, all of his family, but he also love justice and truth. And he -- and he understands that Hunter must face this music. He will stand by his son because he loves his son, but he understands what's at stake here.

KARL: And Asma, meanwhile, Kevin McCarthy coming out. And I mean, it's interesting. He seemed to kind of walk it back at the beginning of the week, he said, we're going towards an impeachment inquiry. And now he seems to be saying, well, maybe if nothing else works out. What is going on?

KHALID: Well, I would say look at the fact that what you have 18 House Republicans who represent districts that Biden won in 2020. They don't want to be voting on impeachment as you head into a re-election cycle. They'd much rather be talking about issues around say the economy, which some Republicans think is a real liability still, for this White House.

I would think it's just the fact that McCarthy seems to be constantly tugged between the Republican base of his party that wants to pull on culture war issues, and would love to go after Biden on impeachment. And some of the -- I think, real practical folks within his party who realize that this is not --

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: Well --

KARL: Who's driving that (INAUDIBLE)?

MARTIN: -- he's tug -- he's tug between his speakership depends on keeping the far right happy because any day now, they could overthrow his speakership. The irony, Jon, is that his future as speaker after the year 2024, depends on the people that don't want impeachment because they're the ones facing those tough races. And so, he is torn.

Look, I think the impeachment issue is puzzling for a lot of reasons. But perhaps most of all things that when you mentioned Sarah, to Biden's numbers are not great as is. And I really think after Labor Day, when I'm sure there's going to be a wave of polling, if it's clear that Biden is not getting any credit for the economic improvement, which we've seen across the board. I think Democrats are going to have another conversation about the future. Because if it's clear, he's not getting credit for the economy at all, then it's obvious that voters are separating out that issue and he's made a judgment on Biden himself, it's impervious to the economy.

BRAZILE: First of all, Kevin McCarthy could not -- cannot keep his clown show together. They don't want to take on the tough issues of making sure that we can get the appropriations bill through so that the government will not face a shutdown --

(CROSSTALK)

ISGUR: It was Donna saying this for the first impeachment of Donald Trump, just curious with.

KARL: All right.

BRAZILE: But, but, but let me just say this about Mr. Biden's numbers, they will improve and know why?

KARL: What (INAUDIBLE)?

BRAZILE: Because he's going to bring the family home if --

KARL: All right.

BRAZILE: -- Democrats (INAUDIBLE).

KARL: We're out of time.

MARTIN: I feel very (INAUDIBLE) --

KARL: Thank you, thank you very much.

Up next, my exclusive interview with Matthew McConaughey. Stay with us.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: My interview with Matthew McConaughey is next. You won’t want to miss this one.

We’ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MATTHEW MCCONAUGHEY, ACTOR & GREENLIGHTS GRANT INITIATIVE CO-FOUNDER: On June 25, 2022, the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act was signed into law following the Robb Elementary school tragedy in my hometown of Uvalde, Texas. Now, part of this bill sets aside billions of dollars to make American schools safer. The problem is, not enough school districts that need these grants know how to apply for them. And for those that do, it is a complex and expensive process. But now we have a solution.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Matthew McConaughey announcing the new Green Lights Grant Initiative he founded with his wife Camilla to help schools access federal grant money for safety and security. I sat down with him for a wide-ranging interview about schools, guns and American politics.

We began the conversation with what sparked his school safety initiative, the massacre last year at Robb Elementary School in his hometown of Uvalde, Texas.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: I remember watching you at the White House. I've seen a lot of celebrities come to the White House on various causes, but I've never seen somebody do quite what you did, when you stood at that podium just after the massacre at Robb Elementary, and spoke from the heart.

MCCONAUGHEY: Maite wore green high-top Converse with a heart she had drawn on the right toe because they represented her love of nature. Camilla's got these shoes. Wore these every day, green Converse with a heart on the right toe. These are the same green Converse on her feet that have turned out to be the only clear evidence that could identify her after the shooting. How about that?

KARL: I mean, this was something that obviously hit you really hard -- hit all of us hard, but really hit you.

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah, it did, You know, it happened in my hometown. My wife was out of the country. She hears about the news and immediately writes me and says, "We've got to go down there." She cut her trip short, flew in. We packed up and headed out. And we had, you know -- we had chaperoned around to the right places. Congressman Tony Gonzales was already on the ground there and helped us go to the right places. We met many of the families.

The families started to invite us into places and -- and -- and hardships that they were going through, they were inviting us in. We had families invite us in to come to the first viewing of their child. And that, to us, felt like we were trespassing, but the mother and father are going, "No. please come in."

So all of a sudden we were down there, and then Camilla got really close and ingrained with quite a few of the families and the mothers in particular. And when we left there, the consensus was, "Can you help make their -- their lives matter?"

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: So that led to us ending up in -- in D.C. And then the president asked me if I would speak at a press conference there, and I sure as hell wasn't going to say no to that.

KARL: That was over a year ago.

MCCONAUGHEY: Yes.

KARL: I remember what you said. You said that there's a window to get something done.

MCCONAUGHEY: Right.

KARL: And something was done, you know, a bipartisan bill.

MCCONAUGHEY: Thirty-two days later.

KARL: Yeah. But now we're over a year past that.

MCCONAUGHEY: Yep.

KARL: And you're trying to make sure that that's actually working?

MCCONAUGHEY: Right. What -- what I'm trying to do -- my wife and I have started this Green Lights Grant Initiative to -- to follow-through, all right. The first bill that was passed for safer schools in 30 years, and it's the Bipartisan Safer Communities Act.

It's got all these grants that can help secure schools physically. It's also mental health counseling for the -- for the kids in these schools. It's the first time it's happened, bipartisans, come together. It's there. And it's already working in some ways. But there's billions of dollars that are still left to be spent.

KARL: I mean, it's follow-through you don't often see because this passed over a year ago...

MCCONAUGHEY: Yes.

KARL: And billions of dollars for school safety, great. It's awesome. And then you find out -- you come along now, a year later, and the money hasn't gone out yet.

MCCONAUGHEY: Well...

KARL: Most of it hasn't.

MCCONAUGHEY: Look, let me give you some numbers here. Congressman Gonzales comes to me about three months after Uvalde, and says, "Matthew, Camilla, 119 schools, 100 -- and 12 applications, zero awards." What -- what -- what are we doing? That math does not add -- that's a zero success rate.

One, way too few -- few applications. Number two, the 12 applications, we went 0 for 12?

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: In the districts right there where Uvalde just happened? So that's when we started, Camilla and I started researching the country and going, "Is this -- I doubt this is just a problem down in South Texas. We know such a problem all over -- all over America. You've got 14,000-something schools. This grant initiative, the Greenlights Grant Initiative is going to connect those districts to those billions of dollars. That's there…

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: …available and wants to be used to make our kids safe.

KARL: I mean, it suggests there's something wrong with the system. If you…

(CROSSTALK)

MCCONAUGHEY: And they admit it though. The government admits…

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: …that it shouldn't be this complicated.

KARL: You said something else at the White House. You said that the middle ground is where most Americans are…

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah.

KARL: …on this issue.

MCCONAUGHEY: Yes.

KARL: …the guns issue. I think you're right, but I've also been following the gun issue for years after tragedy after tragedy…

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah.

KARL: …and nothing gets done.

MCCONAUGHEY: No.

KARL: …on the gun side of it. So, is part of the issue the way it's framed? Because it does freak out a lot of people that consider themselves strong second amendment…

MCCONAUGHEY: Sure.

KARL: …and they are like (ph) any measure is a measure towards confiscating…

MCCONAUGHEY: Sure.

KARL: …all guns. So, how do you speak to those people? I think that's kind of what you were doing at the White House.

MCCONAUGHEY: Well, one of the things -- it was just one word.

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: I went in there and flipped, seemed to get those hard second amendment…

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: …defenders' ears to at least listen and that was -- I changed the word from 'control' to 'responsibility.'

KARL: Right. They hate gun control?

MCCONAUGHEY: Well, control sounds like a mandate and nobody wants a mandate. No one wants to be controlled. But responsibility is still something that we can all go, yeah, I'll take responsibility, and a lot of the far right or the Republicans, they almost feel like responsibility is a value that they have ownership of and it's a sense of -- a sense of almost pride and honor to be responsible.

So when the narrative got changed and the questions, and started calling gun responsibility, a lot more conversation that I even noticed in the few days that we were there, were able to be had from both sides because the second amendment defenders could talk responsibility. I could look you now and talk responsibility with someone from the other side of the aisle.

KARL: I mean, some of the issues that is you specifically have talked about, universal background checks, raising the age for purchasing of assault rifles, national red flag laws, a long -- a waiting period -- a longer waiting period for assault weapons.

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah.

KARL: These are positions that have widespread approval…

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah.

KARL: …among the American public.

MCCONAUGHEY: 80-something percent, right.

KARL: I mean, if you look at the Fox News Poll just earlier this year, universal background checks, 87 percent.

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah.

KARL: Allowing police to take away guns from people who have been shown to be a threat, 80 percent. Raising the minimum wage, 81 percent. Waiting period, 70s -- I mean, it's very rare you see any political issues with that much agreement, and yet none of those things have been done.

MCCONAUGHEY: It's an interesting stat about the populous, almost near unanimous. I mean, the populous vote is there and the how do the sides and the contingencies have -- they're bunkered into their sides on this. And I don't know how the law works, that was a question I had. Wait, can there be a populous vote on this, an uprising that says, "You're not representing the masses. The law is not representing the masses." That math -- you may know more about this than I do -- that math should add up, and right now it doesn't.

KARL: Do you have advice to particularly Democrats on this issue, who the minute they speak about gun control…

MCCONAUGHEY: Yes.

KARL: I mean, you see, you mentioned one thing, get rid of the word "gun control."

MCCONAUGHEY: Right.

KARL: But even without that…

MCCONAUGHEY: Yeah.

KARL: …do you have any advice of how they can speak?

MCCONAUGHEY: Quit patronizing. There's a whole lot of Americans that needs you to at least meet them where they are, and what they're understanding, and how they've grown up on this issue with guns in their lives, and how they -- most of them do handle them responsibly.

So, don't cast them down as being archaic or cavemen and women, and how could you -- no.

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: Listen to them for a minute, and when you are coming in hot, which sometimes the left does, on this issue and many others.

KARL: Sometimes, oh, yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: OK?

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: And as if (ph) immediately saying, "You idiot. You dumb ass."

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: What? How foolish? You've lost him. You've lost him. They get more defensive, all right? So come in and meet them where they are and try to hear where they're coming from, first, and understand that it's -- they have a viable stance, a viable position they're taking that they didn't just come up with last night.

KARL: I've heard you say that we're not as deeply divided as we're told that we are.

MCCONAUGHEY: No.

KARL: Really?

MCCONAUGHEY: Look at the percentages we just talked about.

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: 86 percent, no. But the two on the -- I was talking with my wife about this yesterday. It's human nature. You don't slow to -- you know, you don't slow down to 35 miles an hour on the interstate because everyone's looking at the daisies and the rainbow in the field to the right.

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: Now, you slow down to 35 miles on the interstate going northbound because everyone is slowing down to look at the car wreck on the southbound traffic on the other side.

(LAUGH)

KARL: Right.

MCCONAUGHEY: We love the wreck.

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: We love -- it's entertainment.

KARL: Yeah.

MCCONAUGHEY: We love -- we don't put our finger on. And we don't love to watch health as much as we like to watch disease. These two extremes have the microphone.

KARL: Yes.

MCCONAUGHEY: It's more entertaining. Trump has been great, it's selling fear.

KARL: Yes.

MCCONAUGHEY: Fear sells more than hope.

KARL: Could you see yourself running for something?

MCCONAUGHEY: Could I see? It's more of a larger question for me of, is politics the category where I can be the most useful?

KARL: Or can you do more outside? Like what you're doing here.

MCCONAUGHEY: Well, that's a good, there's a great question that I'm still answering. And as of right now, to be a private citizen with my wife and to come up with an idea like the Greenlights Grant Initiative, to work with the government publicly to help them, not doing the job for them, helping them, pull off what they set out to do in the first place.

KARL: Yes.

MCCONAUGHEY: There is an argument that that's more useful. What I'm doing right now, in a small way. But.

KARL: But to do the kind of big change

MCCONAUGHEY: Yes, well, to do the big change, right. I mean, I'd have to be convinced that that's a category that I'd be could be quite useful in. And it's something that I -- that I -- that I think about all the time.

KARL: You do?

MCCONAUGHEY: Yes, it was -- I mean, starting as, as, as the man I am, as a concerned father.

KARL: Yes.

MCCONAUGHEY: As, as a husband, as a, as a, as a person who believes in people, as a Texan, as an American is like, man, come on. I believe in, I believe in us.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: A refreshing perspective. Thank you, Matthew McConaughey.

Coming up, a preview of Linsey Davis' exclusive interview with Vice President Kamala Harris.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS, (D) VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Women in our country are having miscarriages in toilets. Laws are being passed that make no exception for rape or incest. These supposed leaders have decided they're in a better position to tell her what's in her best interest.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Vice President Harris speaking in Iowa Friday about abortion. Afterwards, ABC's Linsey Davis sat down with the vice president for an exclusive interview. Here's a first look.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LINSEY DAVIS, "ABC NEWS LIVE PRIME" ANCHOR: Bus loads of migrants have been dropped off right at your doorstep by some GOP-led states. Despite those tactics, you do have Republicans who are largely making inroads with Latino voters, and there are many critics, some within your own party, who say that there's more that your administration should be doing on the migration front. Do they have a point?

HARRIS: So first of all, let's agree that people should not be the pawns in a political game. Human beings should not be treated as pawns in a political game. What is happening in terms of sending these migrants -- most of whom have fled great harm, and sending them across the country for the sake of some political showmanship is just irresponsible. If you want to deal with the problem, then do it if you are a leader by participating in the solution.

And one very clear solution, very significant solution has been in front of us for years now. We need to pass immigration reform. You know, there was a time where George Bush, John McCain, others, people who differed on many issues agreed. Let's be sensible and solution-oriented on this issue.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: You can watch Linsey's full interview with the vice president, Monday at 7 P.M. on ABC News Live Prime. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: And that's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight," and have a great day.