'This Week' Transcript: Gov Rick Perry

ByABC News
July 6, 2014, 10:19 AM
PHOTO: Gov. Rick Perry (R) Texas on 'This Week'
Gov. Rick Perry (R) Texas on 'This Week'
ABC News

— -- Below is the rush transcript of "This Week" on July 6, 2014. It may contain errors.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Starting right now on ABC's THIS WEEK, boiling point...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn around and go back.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Children and mothers pouring across the southern border. We go straight to the front lines of this rapidly unfolding crisis with the head of the Border Patrol and the governor whose state has been most affected, Rick Perry of Texas.

Then, on the brink...


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Four teens killed, threatening to set the Middle East tinderbox on fire. We're on the ground with the breaking details.

Plus, two hotly debated laws on marijuana and guns taking effect this week.

Will they put families at risk?

And could they be coming to your state next?



I'm Martha Raddatz.

As we come on the air this holiday weekend, we're tracking two big developing stories.

Overseas, where overnight, Israel launched air strikes against targets in Gaza amid fallout from a series of killings of Israeli and Palestinian teenagers. Many fears this morning that the region could be plunged into war.

We'll get to that in a moment.

But first to the southern border, where that immigration crisis is deepening. And this weekend, more arrests in Murrieta, California, where protesters from both sides of the debate continue to clash over buses carrying undocumented migrants to new detention facilities.

And this week, a special Congressional hearing held near the Texas-Mexico border on that surge of immigrants streaming in from Central America. We'll speak with two of the witnesses who testified there, including Texas Governor Rick Perry.

But first, here's ABC's Jim Avila.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Turn around and go back.

JIM AVILA, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The humanitarian crisis on the border now ripping at the fabric of American society. Flashpoint -- Murrieta, Southern California, where the demonstrators stopped Homeland Security buses trying to process Central American moms and kids who crossed into the U.S. illegally.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Why can't we just transport them on the bus to Tijuana and send them back across the border?

AVILA: Because Mexico shares a border with the United States, Mexican citizens can be deported almost immediately. That's different from children from South America. They're treated as refugees and processed through immigration courts.

The Obama administration wants to give the Department of Homeland Security more discretion to fast track deportations for all Central Americans.

But residents of these border towns are angry that the migrants are crossing over at all.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: This is an invasion.

Why is the National Guard not out there stopping them from coming in?


AVILA: But in an exclusive interview with ABC News this week, his first since then crisis began, Customs and Border Protection Commissioner Gil Kerlikowske says these immigrants should not be feared.

GIL KERLIKOWSKE, COMMISSIONER, CUSTOMS AND BORDER PROTECTION: These are family members. These are not gang members. These are not dangerous individuals.

AVILA: Kerlikowske says the young immigrants and mothers from El Salvador, Guatemala and Honduras often run toward his agents, wanting to be detained.

KERLIKOWSKE: These agents have gone well beyond the call of duty, taking care of these kids, treating them with true compassion, with true heartfelt sympathy.

AVILA (on camera): And you believe you have enough agents to do the job right now?

KERLIKOWSKE: Well, as you know, Secretary Johnson has just deployed an additional 150 agents to the Rio Grande Valley and that is on top of the 115 that are already moving in. So I'm confident that we have the resources.

AVILA (voice-over): They are detaining thousands each week, a projected 80,000 this year alone. Now Homeland Security is struggling to find a place to keep all of them.

For THIS WEEK, Jim Avila, ABC News, Washington.


RADDATZ: I'm joined now by Bishop Mark Seitz of the Catholic Diocese of El Paso, Texas, who has been on the front lines aiding those children and families entering the country.

Thanks for joining us, Bishop Seitz. The part of the story we haven't really heard about is why is there huge -- this huge influx of these refugees now?

What is happening in Central America to make them all come here?

Did son -- something suddenly change down there?

You've been down there with them.

BISHOP MARK SEITZ, CATHOLIC DIOCESE, EL PASO, TEXAS: Right. I think that's something that has been missed by many people. Hearing the story, we just take it up at the point when they arrive at the border. And what we need to begin to understand better is why would they leave?

What would it take for you or me to leave our home, to leave it all behind, just to leave it as it is and to make that journey that they do know is very risky?

They do know they're risking their life.

RADDATZ: And what...

SEITZ: And so...

RADDATZ: -- stories have you heard, Bishop?

SEITZ: Well, I've talked with so many people who said that their life was directly threatened. Down in Tapachula, in the southern border of Mexico, I spoke with a 15-year-old and a 17-year-old who told me that they had been recruited by the gang, that they would not join the gang, that their only option was to leave. And even though they were being deported from Mexico to -- back to Honduras, to San Pedro Sula, the most dangerous city in the world, they would not stay, they would make another attempt, because they felt that to remain would mean their death.

RADDATZ: Well, do you believe that they are coming here because they believe they can get in and that things are different and that they will be welcomed here?

SEITZ: I think a helpful analogy for me is a house that's burning and people at the windows ready to jump. We can say as many times as we want, don't jump, help is -- is coming, but if the flames begin licking at their backs, then they're go to jump. And they'll look for the safest place to land.

And that, I think, is what's happening.

Many of them do know that in the United States, there are people who would receive them. And that's where they go.

Now, at the same time...

RADDATZ: Well, Bishop, what...

SEITZ: -- we should point out...

RADDATZ: -- tell me what you would say...

SEITZ: -- that asylum claims...

RADDATZ: -- tell me what you would say -- tell me what you would say to Governor Perry. You know his feelings on this.

SEITZ: Well, I'd say to Governor Perry, I know that he is -- is a compassionate man and -- and I think we need to tune into that side of -- of our personhood. We know that there is great concern about people coming to our borders. We just need to find a way, first of all, to receive them according to existing laws that say we -- we must receive people who are seeking asylum. In fact, they are not illegal if they are coming under those circumstances.

And we need to look at the root causes, also, and see what we can do as a country to help the situation in Central America.

RADDATZ: OK, thanks very much for joining us, Bishop.

RADDATZ: Now, we turn to Texas Governor Rick Perry, who also testified at that special hearing this week.

You heard what the bishop said. He talks about compassion. You're a religious man.

What do you do about this?

GOV. RICK PERRY (R), TEXAS: Well, for over two years, we've drawn the attention of this issue to this administration. As a matter of fact, in May of 2012, we sent a letter, laid out what was happening with the unaccompanied minors that were showing up at the border. And we told them, we said, if you do not address this, here is what's going to happen.

And we're seeing that become reality today. This is a failure of diplomacy. It is a failure of leadership from the administration in Washington, DC. And it was -- messages have been sent now for multiple years.

In -- in 2010, I asked for the president to put 1,000 National Guard troops in place along the border to secure the border so that we could train up 3,000 Border Patrol agents to augment and to permanently secure that border.

RADDATZ: You just heard the...

PERRY: That has been the...

RADDATZ: -- you heard the commissioner...

PERRY: -- the real issue.

RADDATZ: -- of the Customs and Border Patrol say he is confident they have enough resources on the border. They've added...

PERRY: He is...

RADDATZ: -- people.

PERRY: -- he is absolutely and totally wrong. For one thing, there is a Border Patrol agent -- I should say, 15 Border Patrol agents per mile from El Paso to California. In Texas, that number is seven Border Patrol agents totally per mile. So the idea that there's equity and there's enough Border Patrol agents is totally and absolutely...

RADDATZ: But -- but...

PERRY: -- incorrect.

RADDATZ: -- but Governor, this -- this is about a law. This isn't necessarily about Border Patrol. This is about a law. You heard in Jim Avila's piece, they have to let these people into the country when they're from non-contiguous nations, when they're from Central America or South America.

Should that law be changed?

PERRY: The rule of law is that "The Constitution" requires the United States to secure the border. And we're not doing that. We haven't done it for years. And we are paying a huge price.

When you have catch and release policies that send...

RADDATZ: But -- but, Governor, please...

PERRY: -- a message to people...

RADDATZ: -- go back to the law...

PERRY: -- in Central America...

RADDATZ: -- the 2008 law that was signed into law by George Bush.

Isn't this is a backlog in the courts?

Doesn't that have to be addressed first?

PERRY: What has to be addressed is the security of the border. You know that. I know that. The president of the United States knows that. I don't believe he particularly cares whether or not the border of the United States is -- is secure.

And that's the reason there's been this lack of effort, this lack of focus, this lack of resources...

RADDATZ: He's telling people not to come.

PERRY: -- and...

RADDATZ: He's telling them in ads not to come into the United States, not to leave their homes.

PERRY: About -- about five years too late would be my response to that. The president has sent powerful messages time after time...

RADDATZ: You know, Governor...

PERRY: -- by his policies, by nuances, that it is OK to come to the United States and you can come across and you'll be accepted in open arms. That is the real issue.

RADDATZ: But, Governor, you've made -- I -- I want to go back to an interview you did on Fox News. You re--- you recently made some pretty serious allegations against the federal government.

Let's -- let's listen to what you said to Fox News.


PERRY: The federal government is just absolutely failing. We either have an incredibly inept administration, or they're in on this somehow or another. I mean I hate to be conspiratorial, but I mean how do you move that many people from Central America across Mexico and then into the United States without there being a fairly coordinated effort?


RADDATZ: Governor, do you really believe there's some sort of conspiracy to get people into the United States by the federal government, by the Obama administration?

PERRY: When I have -- when I have written a letter that is dated May of 2012, and I have yet to have a response from this administration, I will tell you they either are inept or don't care, and that is my position.

We have been bringing to the attention of President Obama and his administration since 2010, he received a letter from me on the tarmac. He sends -- I have to believe that when you do not respond in any way, that you are either inept, or you have some ulterior motive of which you are functioning from.

So the issue is, this president understands now that we have a huge problem on our southern border. We have to deal with it. And I don't think you're going to be able to address it until you put the resources there, and that's boots on the ground. We're asking for the FAA to allow for drones to be used.

Unless we secure our southern border, this is going to continue to be a massive amount of individuals that are coming to the United States. And, frankly, we don't have a place to house them as it is. And if we have a major event, a hurricane that comes in to the Gulf Coast, I don't have a place to be housing people who are displaced.

RADDATZ: OK, governor, I'm going to have to stop you there.

PERRY: This administration is housing them.

RADDATZ: I'm going to have to stop you there. But thank you very much for joining us.

PERRY: Martha, thank you. Yes, ma'am.

RADDATZ: We now turn overseas to that escalating crisis in the Middle East. Dramatic clashes all week over the deaths of one Palestinian and three Israeli teenagers.

And now the brutal beating and detention of a Palestinian-American teen is sparking new outrage. ABC's Alex Marquardt brings us the latest.


ALEX MARQUARDT, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: This is one of the many scenes raising fears this morning that this region could soon be plunged into war. An Israeli policeman pinning down a young teen while another repeatedly kicks and pummels the boy. The victim, his family says, is 15-year-old American Tariq Abu Khedair (ph) from Tampa, Florida, released this morning after four days in custody, his face still badly bruised and swollen telling me he's angry and just wants to go home.

What would you say to the Israeli police officers if you could speak to them now?

TARIQ ABU KHEDAIR, DETAINED BY ISRAELI POLICE: I would say, why would you attack me like that? At least try to tell me why would you do that to me if I didn't do anything to you?

MARQUARDT: It was Tariq's cousin, 16-year-old Mohammad Abu Khedair, who was abducted and burned alive on Wednesday. There have been violent clashes every day since, clashes the police tell ABC News that Tariq participated in, which he denies.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These undercover soldiers came out from nowhere and attacked him and beat him.

MARQUARDT: Today, suspects were arrested for Mohammad's murder. Israeli media reported believed to be Israeli extremists looking to avenge the recent murders of three Jewish teens, which has infuriated and saddened Israel on full display at their funeral.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think many, many people feel what if it was my own child, what if it was my own son, what if it was my own daughter?

MARQUARDT: The tension only growing as Israel continues to carry out air strikes on the Gaza Strip.

MARQUARDT: Israel accuses the Palestinian militant group Hamas of being behind the abductions and for failing to stop the rocket fire. Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu said this morning they will do whatever they can to restore calm but so far efforts for a cease-fire have failed as public anger on both sides grows louder -- Martha.


RADDATZ: Our thanks to Alex.

We're joined now by the Israeli ambassador to the U.S., Ron Dermer. Mr. Ambassador, first of all, profound condolences on the loss of the three Jewish teenagers whose bodies were discovered this week.

But you heard Alex mention in the report the tape that clearly appears to involve excessive force.

RON DERMER, ISRAELI AMBASSADOR TO THE U.S.: Well, I saw that video, and obviously it was very disturbing. Excessive force is not something that we accept in Israel. And there's an investigation by our justice ministry to look into exactly what happened.

It's important to understand from what I understand about this particular incident, this boy was one of six boys who had attacked the police with petrol bombs, with Molotov cocktails. Our police are under extreme threat in the Jerusalem area. They're facing mobsters and rioters. It doesn't mean that excessive force is acceptable. It's never acceptable.

RADDATZ: And you would agree that looks like excessive force.

DERMER: Yeah, it looks that way, but I can't rush to judgment.

RADDATZ: This young American's cousin was also killed. The autopsy showed he was burned alive. I know some arrests have been made. Does this appear to be a revenge killing?

DERMER: Well, the suspicions are in that direction, and it's important to understand our prime minister right when this happened condemned it, said that he would use all means available to bring the perpetrators to justice. We will find and prosecute to the full extent of the law anyone who perpetrated this action.

A murder is a murder is a murder whether it's a Jew or an Arab.

RADDATZ: And what happens next? We have Benjamin Netanyahu saying Hamas will pay. You've already started air strikes. What's the next step here?

DERMER: Well, first of all, the responsibility of the government of Israel led by Prime Minister Netanyahu is to bring quiet and security to the citizens of the south. We have about a million citizens in Israel who are facing rocket fire every single day. We've got 150 rockets that have been fired from the time of those kidnappings.

RADDATZ: So, this is just going to be back and forth.

DERMER: It's not a back and forth. It's not a cycle of violence. What we have is a terror organization in Gaza that has fired thousands of rockets at Israel's cities and that are firing rockets at us today. No government around the world, no country around the world would tolerate the firing of rockets at their cities. Israel is surgically striking at the terrorists in order to keep Palestinian civilians out of harm's way.

RADDATZ: I want to move to Iraq. We saw the release of a tape this weekend of the leader of is there, al Baghdadi, standing calmly in front of a congregation in Mosul, the second largest city in Iraq. This man has a $10 million price tag on his head. What does this tell you about the future of Iraq and what will this mean for the Middle East and Israel?

DERMER: Well, it's a big concern for Israel. And it's obviously for the United States of America. What you see happening in the Middle East is a real fight between radical Shias led by Iran and their main proxy Hezbollah and radical Sunnis which include ISIS, which includes Hamas as I talked about in Gaza, it includes al Qaeda, it includes all these groups.

And it's a religious conflict right now where both sides want to be the king of an Islamic...

RADDATZ: Do you see an all-out war?

DERMER: I hope not. We hope that we can take action against the most extreme elements. There's a lot of moderates in the Arab world, as well, and the moderates are your allies and it's important to strengthen them and it's important to encourage them.

The ones who suffer the most from the likes of ISIS and the likes of Hezbollah are actually the Arabs in the region.

RADDATZ: Thank you very much for joining us, ambassador.

DERMER: Thank you.

RADDATZ: Up next, Washington state legalizing recreational marijuana, and Georgia allowing guns into churches, bars, even schools. Two new laws, two very big debates that could impact your family in our Closer Look.

And later, the Supreme Court kicks off a contraception controversy. What you need to know about the big decision.


RADDATZ: Back with our closer look.

States are often called the laboratory of democracy. And this week, we're seeing that in action.

Washington State's experiment with legalized marijuana begins on Tuesday.

We'll get to that in a moment.

But first to Georgia, where one of the widest reaching gun laws in the country went into effect less than a week ago.

Nicknamed "The Guns Everywhere Law" by critics, it allows licensed owners to carry firearms into public places, like bars, churches, schools and some government buildings.

But a controversial group in Texas is calling for much more -- pushing for the open carry of weapons anywhere.

Byron Pitts traveled to San Antonio and brings us this closer look.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're going to do a little open carry at Chitler's (ph), guys. One more (INAUDIBLE) 68.

BYRON PITTS, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The movement started in Texas -- gun owners carrying long guns, like AR-15s, in public places, catching many by surprise, from critics...

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: You're coming here?



PITTS: -- to supporters. UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If a bad guy comes, there's a lot of good guys here to protect me.

PITTS: Causing panic in some communities.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: 911, what is the emergency?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It looks like I seen four white men walking toward the Jack in the Box with assault rifles.

PITTS: And quickly becoming an easy punch line for late night comics.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We're here, we've got gear, get used to it.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You guys aren't just firearm enthusiasts, you're ammosexuals.


PITTS: But for die-hard supporters, this is no joking matter. Rather, it's as serious as "The U.S. Constitution."

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is probably the safest corner in San Antonio right now.

PITTS: That's CJ Grisham, the man who started Open Carry Texas, a master sergeant in the U.S. Army, now just a few months from retirement.

CJ GRISHAM, OPEN CARRY TEXAS: This is sort of my around the house AR-15.

PITTS (on camera): I've never quite heard it phrased that way.

GRISHAM: My around the house AR-15?


(voice-over): He proudly showed us the small arsenal he keeps at home in his bedroom closet, all loaded -- his, his wife's and their children's.

Grisham says he went from gun enthusiast to gun rights advocate after this confrontation caught on the police officer's dashboard camera.

GRISHAM: I was arrested last year. My son and I were going on a hike.

PITTS: Grisham says he brought along that rifle strapped across his chest to protect them from wild animals.

GRISHAM: About halfway through our hike, a police officer approached.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Is there some reason why you have this?

GRISHAM: Because I can.


PITTS: Since carrying a rifle is legal even without a license in Texas, Grisham believes what happened next was illegal.

GRISHAM: Hey, no, don't disarm me, man. Hey.


GRISHAM: And at that point, he pulled his gun, stuck it to my head and threw me into the car.

How long are you keeping me in jail for?


PITTS: That video went viral. A national movement was born, not just the right to carry a long gun openly in public, but handguns, as well.

(on camera): And that's the bottom line for you, the right to openly carry a pistol.

GRISHAM: Right. And, you know, once we get that, people aren't going to be walking around with rifles. And you probably won't even see a whole bunch of people walking around with pistols, but we should have that opportunity.

PITTS (voice-over): The open carry movement's chief adversary is a group called Mothers Demand Action for Gun Sense in America, founded by Shannon Watts, a stay-at-home mom from Indiana.

SHANNON WATTS, FOUNDER, MOTHERS DEMAND ACTION FOR GUN SENSE IN AMERICA: If we use our wallets and we use our votes, we can effect real change in our country's gun culture.

PITTS (on camera): Her group pressured big name store chains, like Starbucks, Chipotle, Chili's and Jack in the Box to ask their customers to leave their guns at home. Just this week, retail giant Target weighed in, writing, "We respectfully request that guests not bring firearms to Target, even in communities where it's permitted by law."

WATTS: They listened to us when we said we don't want loaded assault weapons around our children when we're shopping.

PITTS (voice-over): Nearly every week, CJ Grisham, his wife Emily and often their 12- and 16-year-old, hit the road to attend open carry marches across Texas.

GRISHAM: Oh, our guns are kissing.


PITTS: One weekend, we rode along to a rally in San Antonio.

GRISHAM: They are people with guns and they're not shooting up a school, they're not shooting up a business, they're not robbing a bank.

PITTS (on camera): There are folk in the country that you are scaring, right?

GRISHAM: I realize that there are people that -- that have what I call an irrational fear of guns.

PITTS (voice-over): For Grisham and those who support him nationwide, the battle over open carry is far from over, it's just beginning.

For THIS WEEK, Byron Pitts, ABC News, San Antonio.


RADDATZ: Our thanks to Byron.

"The Dallas Morning News" reports this weekend that Grisham's group recently stopped carrying long guns into businesses to bring the focus back to open carry of handguns.

And now turn to Washington State, which on Tuesday, will become the second state to allow the legal sale of recreational marijuana. Washington follows Colorado, which is six months into its own marijuana experiment.

ABC's Clayton Sandell now on the law's impact so far in the mile high city of Denver.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Have your IDs ready.

CLAYTON SANDELL, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Depending on who you ask...

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We think the whole world is watching right now.

SANDELL: Colorado's legal marijuana experiment was either going to bring a harmless new gold rush or plunge the state into reefer madness.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Under the influence of the drug, he killed his entire family with an ax.


SANDELL: Six months since the first ever recreational pot shops opened here, Colorado is finding out what's working and trying to fix what isn't.


SANDELL: So far this year, recreational marijuana dealers have raked in nearly $70 million, giving the state $11 million in new tax revenues. Tourism isn't suffering, either.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The government still makes a lot of money off of arresting people for this where I live.

SANDELL: Half of Linda Andrew's (ph) customers come from out of state.

LINDA ANDREW: So we're constantly seeing people that are so excited just to be here, because they come from some place that it doesn't exist.

SANDELL: But with the good comes the bad.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Police found a receipt inside the home for pot purchased just three hours before the shooting.

SANDELL: Two deaths, including one alleged murder, have been linked to overdoses of edible marijuana mixed into cookies and candy, prompting new, stricter labels and packaging.


SANDELL: Dr. Sam Wang says last year, eight kids showed up at the Children's Hospital emergency room with marijuana poisoning. This year, already a dozen.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: When people decided they wanted to decriminalize marijuana, I think one of the things that people didn't entirely think about was kind of some of these public health concerns.

SANDELL: Then there are the banks. Businesses can't open accounts because the federal government still considers pot illegal.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: So while we are legal, we don't always feel entirely legal.

SANDELL: Heavily armed private security firms are thriving.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We look for anything suspicious.

SANDELL: Hired to move piles of cash from stores to secret vaults.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: We don't like to say how much our clients have in their store.

SANDELL: Pot advocates who argue weed is less harmful than alcohol point out, overall, crime is down, though any connection to marijuana is hazy.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The system of regulation is actually safer for the public than an unregulated black market.

SANDELL: They've been closely watching in Washington State, where recreational stores open this week.



SANDELL: Hoping to avoid the growing pains felt in Colorado -- ganja's ground zero.

For THIS WEEK, Clayton Sandell, ABC News, Denver.


RADDATZ: Our thanks to Clayton Sandell.

Coming up, the Supreme Court once again at the heart of a big battle over women's health. The decision that could affect millions around the country.

And on this Independence Day weekend, a new film called "America" creating big debate. The controversial filmmaker joins us next.

But first, the powerhouse roundtable's big winners of the week.

Back in two minutes.




UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What if George Washington had been killed by a sniper's bullet?


JEFF ZELENY, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): Could this provocative take on American history be this summer's box office smash?


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What would the world look like if America did not exist?


ZELENY: Controversial free market, Dinesh D'Souza offers a strident defense against the country's critics in historical issues like slavery and land taken from Native Americans and against charges today of the excesses of capitalism and America's role in the world, all pushing back against what D'Souza calls "the shame narrative."


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: If America is a force for good, why are they trying to make us feel bad?


ZELENY: The movie's other targets?

President Obama and Hillary Clinton.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Hillary wanted the radicals to become the government.


ZELENY: It's a one-sided view of history that the right-wing filmmaker hopes will equal the success of his last movie, "2016: Obama's America." That took in over $33 million, as one of the highest grossing documentaries ever.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It's not a rah-rah patriotism that uncritically celebrates America.


ZELENY: On this Independence weekend, a controversial look at America, new fireworks for the old partisan divide.

For THIS WEEK, Jeff Zeleny, ABC News, Washington.


RADDATZ: And Dinesh D'Souza joins us live, as well as Georgetown University professor, Michael Eric Dyson, who's interviewed in the film.

Welcome to both of you.

Mr. D'Souza, let me start with you.

The majority of this film seems to be a defense against those who question anything about this country's history.

Don't you have to look back, especially at something like slavery, acknowledge what happened, before you can move forward?

DINESH D'SOUZA, FILMMAKER: Oh, absolutely. And, actually, in the beginning of the film, we have numerous critics of America, you included, Noam Chomsky, a Native American activist. And we lay out the case against America very passionately and without me making any defense.

But I think that the film then turns around and address the critics and makes points that get neglected. So, for example...

RADDATZ: Pretty quickly, it moves on. I've watched it, as I told you...

D'SOUZA: Yes, it does.

RADDATZ: -- I watched the entire film.

D'SOUZA: Well, it does...

RADDATZ: It moves on very quickly.

D'SOUZA: The reason is that the critique is so well known. In fact, it's drummed into young people endlessly in schools and in colleges. What's missing is the answer to it.

So, for example, when Martin Luther King said I'm submitting a promissory note and I demand it be cashed, what was he talking about?

Actually, he was talking about "The Declaration of Independence." So the reform movements in America to change things have not been breaks with the American founding, they have been returns to the American founding.

So that's what the film is. It's a defense of the spirit of 1776, the same spirit that brought me to America as an immigration to live a kind of life unavailable elsewhere in the world.

MICHAEL ERIC DYSON, PROFESSOR, GEORGETOWN UNIVERSITY: Well, look, to say that there's not a discontinuity between Martin Luther King, Jr. and the larger American compact and -- and project is absolutely right.

The problem is, it's not the left that said that. It's not progressives that's -- that have made that claim, it's people on the right.

Now, they will make an exception for Martin Luther King, Jr., but those of us who are critics of the American state don't believe that America is a nation doomed to its own -- hoisting its on its own petard.

We're saying that, look, if you love America, as James Baldwin said -- he said I love America more than any other nation in this world, therefore, I reserve the right to criticize her relentlessly.

And I think the point you began with is something that we should remember, that those who are critics of America don't hate the nation, they love the nation. They want to love it into a better future.

Martin Luther King, Jr. said, the night before he was murdered, America, be true to what you said on paper. If the litmus test of authentic patriotism is the commitment to an ideal and a goal that furthers the conversation about all people participating equally, then that's the kind of conversation that we have.

He shouldn't be demonized and others who succeed in his, you know, who are successors to him, should not be demonized for their questioning.

RADDATZ: Professor...

D'Souza I think...

RADDATZ: -- I -- I want to move on, quickly, because we don't have too much time on this.

At the end of your film, you make a turn to politics more directly. And -- and you essentially have a conspiracy theory about Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama turning this nation into a socialistic nation, something you said started when Hillary Clinton was in college.

D'SOUZA: Yes. It's not a conspiracy theory, right here, a lot of people think that Hillary is like Bill. They go, well, we kind of want Billary back in the White House because -- and the point we make in the film is, no, there's actually a bridge connecting Hillary to Barack. And that bridge is Saul Alinsky.

Now, many of us develop our political ideas in our formative years. I was a young Reaganite in the early '80s. Obama talks about standing at his father's grave and having a sort of moment of revelation.

Hillary met Saul Alinsky in high school. She brought him to Wellesley College. She wrote her thesis on him.

So we're not inventing a connection between Alinsky and Hillary, they're -- the connection is well-documented.

What we show in the film is rare footage of Alinsky...

RADDATZ: Professor...


RADDATZ: -- just quickly, we have about 30 more seconds.

DYSON: Well, here's the reality. Yes, she has interpreted and interpolated Alinsky but she's not given the suspicions of Mr. D'Souza, somebody who's trying to bring down the American government. She's trying to make that rare act of a politician in public, to bring ideas to bear upon the forces that prevailed that helped the nation become its best self and to work against the -- the demons that are of the speaking, if you will, a negative impact on America.

So Alinsky, in terms of his impact on Obama and Hillary Clinton, I'm sure the Alinskyites would say it's barely discernible now in their political lives.

RADDATZ: Thank you both.

It's a very interesting movie. Everybody should go see it and continue a debate like this.

We'll be back next with our powerhouse roundtable.

But first, before we go to break, our special Fourth of July Powerhouse Puzzler.

Who was the 20th century president born on the Fourth of July?

Back in two minutes to see if the roundtable and you can guess the right answer.



REP. MICHAEL MCCAUL (R-TX), CHAIRMAN, HOMELAND SECURITY COMMITTEE: Our military bases are turning into refugee camps. I never thought I would see this in the United States of America. And we saw three children younger than my kids, seven, eight and nine, with their grandmother -- the mother is in Pennsylvania -- all in tears, crying. And I have to say, on a personal level, what an impact that had for me to see that, just as a human.


RADDATZ: And we're back now with our roundtable.

Joining us, ABC News contributor and Democratic strategist, Donna Brazile; former House speaker and CNN "Crossfire" co-host, Newt Gingrich; Yahoo! ! News national political columnist, Matt Bai; and ABC News political analyst, Matthew Dowd.

Welcome to all of you.

And let's start with immigration -- Donna, you heard what Rick Perry said about this. He said it's all about border security and what the president has done is basically too little too late.

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, what the president has done is, of course, doubled the number of troops or boots on the ground in terms of border security. They've tripled the amount of money used for the enforcement.

But what is happening is a regional crisis, young people fleeing violence, abuse from, you know, Honduras, El Salvador and Guatemala...

RADDATZ: Has that not been going on for years and years and years...

BRAZILE: Well, it's increased.

RADDATZ: -- and years?

BRAZILE: We've had 6,500 kids, probably, about three years ago. Today it's close to 65,000, 70,000 and it's growing. This is a crisis, a humanitarian crisis, and we have to resolve it. We cannot resolve it simply.

And it's not just a crisis of the United States, it's also a crisis of Mexico, Panama, Costa Rica. These kids are fleeing violence and they're looking for safety.

RADDATZ: Speaker Gingrich, do you think the law should be changed, that 2008 law?

And -- and there are some reports that President Obama would like that law changed, too...


RADDATZ: -- so they can send them back.

GINGRICH: -- I doubt very much if Senator Dianne Feinstein, who authored that particular amendment to the bill that passed in 2008, meant for it to potentially, next year, have 140,000 people crossing -- legally crossing the border under the law.

The Gallup -- the Gallup World Poll last year asked a question, were -- is there a country you'd like to move to?

A hundred and sixty-five million people said, yes, the United States.

Now, we've got to confront the reality, yes, there are a lot of deep personal stories, there are a lot of very attractive people.

Do you really think we're going to absorb 165 million people?

Sudanese, violence; Iraq violence; Syria, violence; much of West Africa, violence; Nigeria, violence. I mean there's got to be some rule of law that says we get to defend our own country and we get to control our border.

RADDATZ: What -- what a -- what about the -- the border, that they want to build up, that you heard Rick Perry say the -- the head of the border security is just wrong, we need far more to -- to guard the border?

That really doesn't solve this immediate crisis.

MATT DOWD, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: No. I mean there's two huge aspects here. There's one that is obviously a humanitarian crisis that we're in now -- right now, with mainly women and children coming over. I often think of the idea like if there were stowaways on the Titanic, you don't ask for their ticket when you're putting the women and children on the lifeboats. You put them on the lifeboats, you save them, you deal with the problem. And then when they get to port, you figure out what do we do with the situation when they bought a -- they bought a ticket or they came here illegally.

Solve the crisis.

But this is actually an environment that's created because we haven't done anything about immigration reform.

RADDATZ: Um-hmm.

DOWD: We haven't done -- we haven't secured the borders in any real way. And we haven't done a reform that deals with the people that are in this country.

So when you have an environment that's been -- that's created, this thing happens.

RADDATZ: Matt Bai, is that what happens -- has to happen, you have to get immigration reform before this can be solved?

And -- and -- and solving this right now, letting them in, does that not send the message to others to come on up?

MATT BAI, NATIONAL POLITICAL COLUMNIST, YAHOO! NEWS: Well, you do need to solve it and you can. There's a ton of common ground on this, as everybody knows. I mean the solutions aren't that hard to figure.

As Speaker Gingrich knows better than I do, you know, the -- the compromise happens politically when the cost of inaction with the broad electorate outweighs the risk of doing something that might really anger the most motivated people in your base.

This Congress has a 9 percent approval rating last I checked. It basically means their spouses don't think -- their mothers don't think they're doing a good job, right? RADDATZ: And...


RADDATZ: -- this is a good...

DOWD: And still no compromise.

RADDATZ: -- this is a...


DOWD: So there's something structurally wrong. I don't think we're going to get it.

RADDATZ: Speaking of polls and speaking of approval rates, there was a poll out this week that generated a whole lot of attention. When asked who was the worst president since World War II, 33 percent said Obama, 28 percent said Bush and Nixon came in with 13 percent -- Donna, you want to start on that one?

BRAZILE: Well, look, this president is¸ in the moment -- in the moment, six years, normally, that's when the itch starts, the itch to find a new president. And I also believe that when you look at the poll and how it was conducted -- not that I like to talk about the internal process of taking a poll -- there's no question that the Democrats concentrated all of their efforts on one or two and the Republicans said, yes, we dislike Obama.

You know what, if I was the president, I would ignore that poll and every other poll between now and the day he leaves office and focus on delivering what he promised to the American people.

RADDATZ: Matt, you wrote this week that it's -- Matt Bai -- that it's Obama's presidency, but he's still govering -- governing in Bush's world.

BAI: Yes. I mean I -- and, you know, a lot of people don't like to hear it. I mean it doesn't mean -- I think he could have done a better job of working his way out of a lot of this. And there are a whole host of reasons we're in this situation.

But if you look at how his term has been defined, aside from health care, virtually all of it defined by issues and conundrums that he inherited.

I don't think that's -- that -- what I'm not saying is that's because Bush made such a mess and Obama can't work his way out of it.

What I'm saying is I think we have deep, transformative, transitional problems in the society that are not going to be solved...

RADDATZ: Very -- very quickly, Matthew Dowd.

BAI: -- by one set of policies or another.

DOWD: It does say how dramatically the view of the public has changed on the president when he was elected and he took the office, when it was he was going to be the one, he was -- he got the Nobel Peace Prize and now he's viewed as one of the worst presidents.

I think it's all temporary. The only thing consistent about that poll is that Jimmy Carter and Richard Nixon are always on it.

RADDATZ: Speaker Gingrich, very quickly to you.

GINGRICH: Well, I -- I want to agree with Matt Bai.

We are in deep structural problems, whether it's the Veterans Administration, the Middle East, the border. And neither party has figured out a way to start offering really deep solutions. And shallow solutions just don't work. They break down in front of you in the...


RADDATZ: And all problems...


RADDATZ: -- all problems that will take a long time to solve.

The roundtable is just getting started.

We're back in less than a minute with that big Supreme Court case that could effect millions of women.

That debate is next.



JIMMY KIMMEL, HOST: Work even stopped at the White House today. About 200 White House staffers gathered to watch the game when lo and behold, their boss walked in and began to lead them in cheer.


I believe that we can win!

I believe that we can win!

I believe that we can win!

KIMMEL: Well, he believed in a lot of things that didn't quite work out...


KIMMEL: -- (INAUDIBLE) put that one on the list.


RADDATZ: OK, we'll get to soccer in a moment.

But back with our roundtable.

And we want to start with the Supreme Court and -- and, Donna, Hobby Lobby.


RADDATZ: A fierce divide in the Supreme Court this week.

Earlier, they sided with Hobby Lobby in a 5-4 decision that says that the company does not have to provide contraception because of their religious beliefs.

Later in the week, they issued an order providing temporary relief to a non-profit college that also objected.

This provoked the female justices to issue a statement saying, "Those who are bound by our decisions usually believe they can take us at our word. Not so today."

BRAZILE: Oh, let me tell you, this was a tough week, because the Supreme Court...

RADDATZ: And -- and very hard to follow...

BRAZILE: Well...


RADDATZ: -- what does that mean?

BRAZILE: It is. It is.


BRAZILE: But the bottom line is, the Supreme Court basically ruled that bosses can tell women what they can and cannot do with their body. They can control our reproductive health care.

This has nothing to do with religious freedom. This has everything to do with the Supreme Court now saying corporations are people.

Well, corporations have no soul, they have no pray (ph), they're legal entities. And now, our bosses can tell us what we can and cannot do in order to maintain our own health and reproductive health care.

RADDATZ: Something tells me that's not the way you're reading...


RADDATZ: -- that decision.

GINGRICH: The hysteria on the left about this is unbelievable. First of all, HillaryCare, 20 years ago, had a broader provision. The bill that Senator Moynihan introduced for Hillary had a broader provision in favor of corporate right to back out.

Second, the Hobby Lobby provided 16 out of the 20 contraception. The only four they didn't provide are abortifacients, which are a fundamental violation for people who believe that life begins at contraception.

So you go down the list. Nobody says women can't use their own money to buy contraception. In the case of Hobby Lobby, they're providing 16 of the 20.

BRAZILE: And they provided all 20 before the Affordable Care Act, so this is hypocrisy.

RADDATZ: Matt Dowd, what are the implications here.

DOWD: Well, that's what happens and what's happened in the last 10 or 15 years is we drop these kind of things in the toxic environment we're in, and then we have two sides that respond basically overstating.

Most people that have read this case and read all the briefs surrounding this, this is a very limited case. But we have the left that say it's a war on women. We have the right that says this is a war on religion and both sides in this case which is very limited, and I agree with the speaker on this, this is not about banning, this is not about banning contraception. This is about saying we as a company don't want to pay for these four. So it's not banning it and each side is overstating the case on this, which happens every time we throw these issues in the midst of this environment.

RADDATZ: Matt Bai, we like to think that the court is above the divisions in the country.

BAI: Still?

RADDATZ: But it didn't seem that way, it didn't seem that way this week.

BAI: No, I mean, look, the court has always been a political and a social and a cultural institution, that hasn't changed.

I was struck this week by how much, what's happening on the court reflects what's happening in the rest of the society. Because you didn't just see -- it's not just a breakdown of the left justices and justices on the right. It's women, right. It's all the women on the court. Now for years we had one woman justice, she was a Republican, now you have three women justices all of whom sided against the men on the court. It's to some extent demographic. All three of them are from New York City originally. I mean, you have a much more, you know, suburban or other, you know, western or Midwestern representation on the rest of the court.

So I think, you know, you're seeing the cultural divisions at large in the country play out as you always have.

DOWD: It is a problem because people now take the court decisions and are now viewed in a partisan way. That never used to be the case. So we now accept or reject what the court says based upon our partisan leanings and that's never happened before.

BRAZILE: But we don't pick and choose among what services, what reproductive services or what health care services men use, but we do it among women and birth control, contraception...

DOWD: I don't know -- who's...

BRAZILE: Women's health.

DOWD: Nobody is banning it. Nobody is banning it.

BRAZILE: The Supreme Court...

DOWD: But you are saying that if I work and I contribute, my health care now has to be basically tailored by my boss.

RADDATZ: OK, I'm going to switch this onto a pleasant topic.

DOWD: That's the Affordable Care Act.

BRAZILE: No, it says that I can make that choice...

RADDATZ: Donna, Matt, hang on, because we're going to talk about the World Cup, whether you like it or not.

DOWD: All right, all right, all right.

RADDATZ: And I know you want to talk about the World Cup. OK, we lost, we lost. But so many Americans watched this game. Will this continue? I mean it was so surprising how many tuned in to this, and it says something about this nation and how it's changing.

DOWD: Well, I think we love -- I think that we love the idea and every time we come around it's like the Olympics we have this.

I still have some doubts whether how much this will attach to the American public over time. I think part of the problem is we're used to a different kind of game. We're used to a game where you can have breaks and go to the bathroom and you can have breaks and go get something to eat and there's more activity and there's more conflict on the field, much more conflict even though we saw a lot in the Brazil/Colombia game. I think it's going to take a while becausethis is not a sport the American public really tunes in to.

BRAZILE: I disagree. I love the athletes. All those sweaty...

RADDATZ: Oh, yeah, we had all the athlete stories.

BRAZILE: I enjoyed it. I enjoyed it.

RADDATZ: Donna is definitely going to keep watching.

BRAZILE: Keep going.

RADDATZ: Thanks to all of you.

Right back with our "Sunday Spotlight" after this from our ABC stations.


RADDATZ: Now our Sunday spotlight on the story of trailblazing chef Leah Chase, she took a stand against Jim Crow and a segregated south changing history with a little bit of gumbo. Our Susan Saulny takes us to New Orleans.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is the best gumbo I ever had.

LEAH CHASE, CHEF: So he picks up the hot sauce in the gumbo. I said, Mr. Obama, you don't put hot stuff in my gumbo.

SUSAN SAULNY, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Not everyone can tell Barack Obama how to enjoy his lunch. But when you're the queen of Creole cuisine still cooking in the same New Orleans restaurant you built in the 1940s, there are certain liberties.


OBAMA: Leah Chase may be the most important chef you've never heard of. She's fried chicken with Julia Child, judged gumbo on "Top Chef," fed prime ministers and presidents alike. Ray Charles even sang about her cooking.

In the '40s and '50s, her Dooky Chase Restaurant was the only upscale restaurant in New Orleans to serve notable African-Americans who were passing through town.

So, Dizzy Gillespie, Ray Charles.

CHASE: Everybody. Duke Ellington, everybody.

SAULNY: But Chase would blaze a trail not just by bringing in big names, in the segregated '50s and '60s Dooky Chase was ground zero for blacks and whites who were hoping to change history together.

During the civil rights movement at great risk to yourself and your family, you defied the laws of the Jim Crow south. You allowed the civil rights movement, people who needed to strategize, who were white and black, to come in here and have meetings.

CHASE: You know, yes, we did. Anything you thought that could better people, you just did it.

SAULNY: But someone threw a bomb at the restaurant.

CHASE: But it didn't even worry me.

SAULNY: Freedom Fighters are meeting in an upstairs room.

CHASE: Everything. I knew I could not do what they were doing.

SAULNY: So that was your contribution to the movement.

CHASE: Feed them.

SAULNY: She wanted to fortify their hearts and souls with her etouffees and jambalayas.

CHASE: It's all about helping people. My daddy brought me up that way. The three things we had to live by was pray, work, do for others.

SAULNY: So when Disney moviemakers went looking for inspiration for "The Princess and the Frog," a model for their first black princess, they turned to Leah Chase.

CHASE: I was so proud of that because they had Snow White, Belle and...

SAULNY: So many.

CHASE: Cinderella.

SAULNY: Never one that looked like you or had a work ethic like you.

CHASE: They made her pretty and I'm so happy for that.

SAULNY: Even at age 91 you'll still find this self-taught chef hard at work in her kitchen whipping up the gumbo that in a city full of finicky foodies remains the gold standard.

You put pepper beyond what's in the hot sauce, though, no?

CHASE: The hot sausage, there enough pepper in there. You see, I make the roux with the grease from the hot sausage.

SAULNY: OK. Tips from a pro.

Like her gumbo, Leah Chase is an original cooking up a life of passion and activism. the finished product, unforgettable.

For This Week, Susan Saulny, ABC News, New Orleans.


RADDATZ: Our thanks to Susan. And if that made you hungry, you can head to ABCnews.com/thisweek to find Leah Chase's recipe for one of her famous gumbos.

And we end with some welcome news. The Pentagon reported no deaths of service members in Afghanistan this week.

That's all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out World News with David Muir tonight. And we leave you this morning with images you and a few of our own ABC Family submitted of your Independence Day celebrations.

Have a great day.


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