Former Donald Trump attorney speaks on consequences the ex-president will face if held in contempt
The trial may go to a standstill if Trump violates gag order again, he says.
Former defense attorney for Donald Trump, Robert Ray, spoke with ABC News, providing his insights on Judge Juan Merchan's finding of contempt against the former president.
Judge Merchan held Trump in contempt for violating a gag order for the 10th time. Merchan stated that the $1,000 fines per violation were not effective and threatened to incarcerate Trump in the future.
Ray believes that the former president and his lawyers know they have tested the judge's patience, and he thinks the judge will take action regardless of who Trump is.
According to Ray, if Trump were to face consequences, his lawyers would likely appeal, causing the trial to come to a standstill.
ABC News sat down with Ray on Monday to discuss the possible outcomes that Trump could face if he violates the gag order again.
ABC NEWS LIVE: Let's bring in Robert Ray. He was Trump's defense lawyer in the first Senate impeachment trial. Robert, thanks so much for joining us.
Let's start with that contempt of court. That was actually the 10th. And the judge really gave that stern warning, saying next time there would be jail time. Do you think that that's really potentially an option?
ROBERT RAY: In order for it to be an option, the judge would have to issue that warning, which he did. And obviously, both sides are testing the limits with regard to contempt about whether or not that sanction, even if threatened, would be imposed. The prosecution up to now hasn't asked for it, but the judge has discretion, assuming he provides, you know, sufficient warning and notices to the consequences of what he believes to be conduct by the former president to violate the gag order; what the repercussions will be.
So I suspect now that he's pushed it about the judge has pushed it about as far as he intends to push it before he will act. And I think that the former president and his lawyers obviously are on notice of that fact. So, you know, this is a place that I think, as the judge indicated himself, is a place to be avoided. But he's signaled that he will act even though he understands who he's acting against. Now, the consequences of doing that are pretty important, because my guess is that they, if that were to happen, it would cause the trial to come to a standstill where the former president, through his lawyers, would likely appeal and seek relief from an appellate court.
And again, that's not a desirable outcome for anybody, either. It's not desirable out from the public. It's not desirable for the prosecution. Certainly, judge doesn't want to do that and hold up the jury. But that's, you know, that could be where we're headed here.
ABC NEW LIVE: You know Donald Trump very well as far as representing him before. I'm curious if you think, based on the man you know and his character, is this warning, this threat of a potential jail time enough to deter him?
RAY: Look, he's first and foremost a candidate for president of the United States. And if he finds that, you know, and a choice between what might get me in trouble before this judge in a courtroom and what his, what he believes to be his higher calling with regard to the electorate is, he's going to choose, you know, his candidacy over what the judge may or may not do.
Having said that, though, what I find to be the case here, and I'm sure this is the advice he is being given by his lawyers, is that there's a careful calibration going on here. And I think the former president is likely to try to steer clear of the threat of actual imprisonment for contempt.
ABC NEWS LIVE: And give us a sense of if you think that the evidence provided by the prosecution will really resonate with the jury. As far as that handwritten note, apparently written by Allen Weisselberg. Twelve different payments to then-Trump lawyer Michael Cohen.
RAY: The three, I think, key things that the jury will ultimately focus on are one, what they have to prove, the government will have to demonstrate beyond a reasonable doubt, and this is going to be the focus of, I think, the jury's deliberations, when they ultimately get the case, probably sometime later this month or maybe in early June. And that is, you know, are the records false? And there's some question about that. You saw that from, you know, some of the cross-examination today. Are they really, you know, business expenses, legal fees, or are they something else?
The second is, was there were efforts to conceal, and and the third is what was all of this done with the purpose of influencing an election? All three of those things will have to be shown. But most importantly, it has to be shown that Donald Trump knew. And I think we're still going to get to a point, even after today's testimony, where the jury is going to have to focus on what Michael Cohen has to say about what Donald Trump knew, because it was clear from these witnesses today, they don't really know, one way or another, what Donald Trump knew or didn't know. They just know what they were instructed to do.
ABC NEWS LIVE: And just want to kind of quote here, because the prosecution has said by the end of their case, the jurors will have a full picture of Trump's conduct and inescapably reach the conclusion that Donald Trump is guilty. How do you think the prosecution is doing on that?
RAY: Well, that's the, that's the big question, isn't it? I mean, that's obviously for the jury to decide whether or not they have presented that case. That's what they promised in opening. That's what you hope to be able to prove if you're a prosecutor.
The defense is attempting to poke holes in that argument, and it will ultimately be for the jury to decide whether or not the government has met its burden unanimously to convince all 12 jurors beyond a reasonable doubt that, in fact, Donald Trump knew, I think, well, we don't know yet. We're on Day 12.
It sounds like there's about maybe 10 more trial days left in this trial, according to the estimates that the prosecution gave today. So it should take us probably somewhere around Labor Day. I'm sorry, Memorial Day. And then we'll, we'll have probably jury deliberations, closing arguments and so forth in the first week of June or so.
ABC NEWS LIVE: So pardon the pun here, but in your estimation, the jury is still out. It's too early to decide, you know.
RAY: I mean, I guess it is a pun, but I mean, that's why this is such, you know, all criminal cases are tough questions, and they involve, you know, real questions of intent. This is no different.
ABC NEWS LIVE: Former defense attorney Robert Ray, we thank you so much for your time. Appreciate you joining.
RAY: Thank you for having me.
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