'This Week' Transcript 12-31-23: Rep. Mike Turner & Fmr. Trump White House Staffers

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, August 28, 2022 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Stark warning.

Why was it the women in the Trump White House that led the way on this?

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FMR. TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR & THE VIEW CO-HOST: I don't think it's in any of our constitutions to be able to lie about what we witnessed.

KARL: Our exclusive interview with three Trump White House staffers who spoke out against the president they served after January 6th.

SARAH MATTHEWS, FMR. TRUMP WHITE HOUSE DEPUTY PRESS SECRETARY: I knew that I would have to defend that, and I – I couldn't live with myself.

CASSIDY HUTCHINSON, FMR. SPECIAL ASSISTANT TO PRESIDENT DONALD TRUMP & AUTHOR, 'ENOUGH': There was never a second guess of whether it was right or wrong.

KARL: What their message is going into 2024.

Plus --

REP. HENRY CUELLAR: We've got to get the federal government to do its job.

REP. TONY GONZALES: Talk is cheap. There has to be some actions.

KARL: House Republicans remain at odds with the Biden administration over foreign aid and security at the southern border. The latest from House Intelligence Committee chair Mike Turner.

And another Civil War clash in the Republican primary.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What was the cause of the United States Civil War?

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it always comes down to the role of government, and what the rights of the people are.

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Nikki Haley has had some problems with some basic American history.

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: If someone asked me what the cause of the Civil War was, it's easy.

KARL: Just two weeks before the first votes are cast in Iowa, Nikki Haley faces backlash for comments over slavery and the Civil War.

And a ruling in Maine keeps the Republican front-runner off another state's primary ballot. A legal battle likely heading to the Supreme Court.

SHEENA BELLOWS, MAINE SECRETARY OF STATE: I will always uphold what the court does.

KARL: Our powerhouse roundtable weighs in with their forecast for the year ahead.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning, and welcome to THIS WEEK. I hope you all had a chance to unwind and to enjoy some time with family and friends over the holidays as we prepare to celebrate the new year.

But even as the country relaxes just a bit, it's been quite a week in politics. A foreshadowing perhaps of the year to come.

Maine became the second state to say Donald Trump should not appear on the ballot as a presidential candidate, potentially teeing up another landmark case for the Supreme Court. Nikki Haley stumbled after a voter asked a simple question about the cause of the Civil War. The influx of migrants over the southern border hit yet another record. And Russia launched its most aggressive air strikes on Ukraine since invading the country nearly two years ago.

We'll get to all of those stories, but we begin today with a THIS WEEK exclusive as we approach the three-year mark since the January 6th attack on the U.S. Capitol. My conversation with three young women who worked in Donald Trump's White House and answered the call when it came time to tell the truth about what they witnessed when Trump tried to upend the 2020 presidential election. Former January 6th committee vice chair Liz Cheney singled out these young women as truth tellers after they provided some of the most compelling testimony of her committee's historic hearings.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

LI CHENEY, FORMER U.S. CONGRESSWOMAN FROM WYOMING (June 29, 2022): And I will tell you, it is especially the young women. Young women who seem instinctively to understand the peril of this moment for our democracy, and young women who know that it will be up to them to save it. And I have been incredibly moved by the young women that I have met and that have come forward to testify.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: For a Republican speaking the truth about Donald Trump, a man who has vowed retribution against those who have betrayed him, can be dangerous, especially if you worked for him. Despite that, these young women went public even as many of the men they worked with, some in more senior positions, stayed silent or actively enabled and excused Trump's actions.

Now, for the first time, they sat down together to tell the story behind their story and the threats they face and still face today. It's a fascinating conversation.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (voice over): Some of the most compelling testimony of the January 6th committee came from women in their 20s who were working just steps away from the Oval Office when the pro-Trump mob stormed the U.S. Capitol. Sara Matthews, the deputy press secretary, who was just 25 years old when she resigned that night.

MATTHEWS: I motioned up at the TV and I said, do you think it looks like we're f-ing winning? Because I don't think it does.

KARL (voice over): And Cassidy Hutchinson, the 24-year-old top aid to Chief of Staff Mark Meadows, whose riveting testimony was front-page news across the country.

DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: She testified today that a number of people inside that White House knew, in the days leading up to January 6th, that this could be dangerous.

LESTER HOLT, NBC NEWS HOST: Jaw-dropping testimony here in Washington.

BRET BAIER, FOX NEWS HOST: This testimony is stunning.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: And a complete game-changer.

JAKE TAPPER, CNN HOST: A portrait of a president who was completely and utterly out of control.

KARL (voice over): And there was the woman who brought them both to the committee, Alyssa Farah Griffin, who left the Trump administration on December 4, 2020, after serving multiple high-level roles.

HUTCHINSON: Both of these women made such a profound impact on how I ended up viewing all of this. And, you know, I – I wouldn't be here with you today if it wasn't for Alyssa and Sarah and Liz Cheney and the January 6th Committee.

KARL: And playing that incredible role you played.

HUTCHINSON (June 28, 2022): Mr. Cipolone said something to the effect of, please make sure we don't go up to the Capitol, Cassidy. Keep in touch with me. We're going to get charged with every crime imaginable if we make that movement happen.

KARL: It was the emotional, dramatic highlight of that entire committee.

HUTCHINSON: I appreciate you saying that. But I think that there's -- everybody's testimony that came forward and provided truthful information was incredibly important. And I just feel like I don't deserve the credit for that. Again, like, Alyssa and Sarah are --

(CROSSTALK)

GRIFFIN: But -- if I may say, no, the – if I can say, there is critical parts of history that the public would not know if not for Cassidy Hutchinson. Other senior officials, more senior than you witnessed them, but did not come forward, they did not testify whether it was credible threats about the attack on the Capitol, that people showing up that day were going to be armed, that there was this scheme to try to stop the vice president from certifying. You played such a critical role in telling the truth there. And I will never not be angry that people senior to us did not step forward and tell the truth and realize what a vital part of not just American history but preserving this country telling the truth is.

MATTHEWS: Really, you're -- you're being humble, but you deserve so much credit for the courage that that took because, like you said, I think all of the witnesses who came forward faced scrutiny and threats and harassment, but yours was to the next level because of the bombshell type of information that you had.

KARL: All of you faced massive blowback. What happened to you, like, after you resigned, after you, you know, came out and said what you said, and ultimately cooperated with the committee? What kind of threats did you face?

MATTHEWS: I think – I think after resigning -- I did this after resigning and after testifying. I largely tried to tune out any media coverage, not check social media. But I think what was tough was after resigning knowing that I upset friends who I was close to in the Trump administration.

KARL: Kayleigh McEnaney, who you were – you were her deputy.

MATTHEWS: Yes.

KARL: What did she say to you?

MATTHEWS: Yes. I called her on the night that I resigned on January 6th, and it was a very short convo. She said, OK, thank you for letting me know. I wish you well.

KARL: And that was it for -- you haven't talked to her since?

MATTHEWS: No, we have not spoken a word since that day. But I think that I am very at peace with that decision, and the same goes for testifying before the January 6th Committee. I think that I knew that I could not walk into the White House gates the next day after January 6th, especially as someone who was a spokesperson because I knew that I would have to defend that, and defend what we saw that day, and his dereliction of duty, and I – I couldn't live with myself.

And so that was why I made that decision. And then, going forward, to testify before the January 6th Committee. I stand by that decision, even if that meant losing some friends along the way. I mean there are very few people that I'm in touch with from the Trump admin, two of them sitting right here.

KARL: And, Cassidy, you faced -- I mean you lost friends and all of that, but, I mean, you faced death threats. I mean you had to leave town and get security.

HUTCHINSON: I moved to Atlanta for several months.

KARL: I mean – I mean you had – I mean you basically had to, like, go into exile because of the – of the threats you were facing.

HUTCHINSON: The American people can only elect officials if they are acknowledge -- if they’re educated on who those people actually are. And to be able to shed light on the lack of character that Donald Trump displayed that day, the lack of leadership that he displayed that day, there was never a second guess of whether it was right or wrong. And to this day I truly believe I gained so much more than I lost. I gained a whole new sense of community, a whole new sense of leadership, a different perspective on how our government should be run and what a responsible president actually looks like, but also on how perilous this moment we're facing as a country is.

KARL (voice over): They are all on the same page now, but as disturbed as Cassidy Hutchinson was by what she witnessed on January 6th, for a time, she remained loyal to Trump who continues to deny he did anything wrong on that day.

I want to ask you about something you wrote in your book about Alyssa. You write about coming back into the White House on January 7th, exhausted and freaked out by all that you had witnessed the day after January 6th, and you see Alyssa's on television, and she's very critical of Trump.

(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)

HUTCHINSON: My phone vibrated with a text from Alyssa moments after she was off the air. She apologized for not having given Mark and me a heads-up and explained that she had felt compelled to say something.

My phone clattered as I dropped it on my desk in disgust. She promised she wouldn't betray us. She promised she would always be loyal.

(END AUDIO CLIP)

HUTCHINSON: I still felt that sense of loyalty to the administration, and I don't say that with pride, and I had -- it was sort of the beginning where I had these split emotions about how to actually process what happened that day and how to process my own involvement in it, and what I could do moving forward.

I was really upset with Alyssa on one hand because we were very, very close, and she had worked for -- Alyssa had worked for Mark Meadows before I had.

So you were short of my shepherd in a lot of ways with just helping navigate that environment and I was so grateful for all of that, and there's also this side where I was really proud and somewhat envious of the courage you displayed.

KARL: After they reconciled, it was Alyssa who would connect both Sarah and Cassidy with the committee investigating the Capitol riot.

ALYSSA FARAH GRIFFIN, FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE COMMUNICATIONS DIRECTOR: Once the January 6th committee was stood up, Adam Kinzinger reached out to me and said, hey, would you be willing to meet just off the record with me and Liz Cheney? So, I did and I’ve been friends with Adam and his wife for years and gave them kind of my best recollection, what I knew, but I left December 4th. So, I didn’t see a lot of that kind of critical period leading up to it.

I did talk to Sarah and I recommended to Sarah and Congresswoman Cheney that they should connect and they should talk. And from there, they were -- you know, you were able to meet in the basement of the Capitol and provide --

KARL: With Liz Cheney?

MATTHEWS: Yeah. So --

KARL: She had a little basement office, no windows, down an unmarked corridor.

MATTHEWS: It was all very secretive.

HUTCHINSON: Wires coming from the ceiling.

(CROSSTALK)

MATTHEWS: Literally, it was all very secretive, too, because after I resigned from the Trump administration, I ended up going back to Capitol Hill and was working on Capitol Hill for a Republican there, and kind of had resumed a seemingly normal life. And it wasn't until Alyssa reached out and said, the January 6th Committee is interested in talking with you.

And obviously, I was sympathetic to the cause because I had resigned on January 6th, but it was a largely Democrat committee. And so there was a little bit of apprehension there on my part, and she said, Liz Cheney is willing to meet with you off the record. It will just be the three of us, and it won't leak. And --

KARL: So, the three of you met in the basement of the Capitol.

GRIFFIN: And nothing leaked by the way.

MATTHEWS: Nothing leaked from it.

KARL: You could have told me about it.

MATTHEWS: And nothing leaked from it and we sat there for probably, like, what? Four or five hours or something.

KARL: Wow.

MATTHEWS: And I just gave her my best recollection of the events leading up to January 6th, and the aftermath of the election and --

GRIFFIN: And the day of, that was what was most interesting. The West Wing that people were saying, this isn't our people. This is Antifa.

MATTHEWS: Mm-hmm. Exactly. So I was able to help shed some light, but I honestly thought that was going to be the end of it. I thought that, you know what? I don't have anything that's super compelling. I didn't talk to the president on that day.

So I thought, I’m going to cooperate, of course, because I’m sympathetic to the cause, but this will probably be the end of it. And I’ll point her in the right direction, and during that conversation, I said, you know who you really need to talk to next is Cassidy Hutchinson.

GRIFFIN: Those of us who were in the West Wing knew this woman had so much power, so much access.

KARL: Cassidy?

GRIFFIN: Cassidy -- and visibility into things that I would go to her to get that information, as a White House comms director, to know like the president's movements, the schedule.

So you were really, truly a key to figuring out the events leading up to that.

KARL: So you told Liz Cheney, you should really talk to Cassidy Hutchinson. Had you already given that message to her?

GRIFFIN: I had, and I think I had told you, you should consider talking before it ultimately came together.

HUTCHINSON: Yeah. Alyssa did reach out in early October of 2021. So this was about a month before I was formerly subpoenaed, and I was at this really delicate point in my so-called journey in all of this where I really wanted to come forward. But I also had concerns about it. I didn't know if there would be lasting implications.

And, ultimately, I told Alyssa that I would talk to Li Cheney if it meant that I wouldn’t be subpoenaed because I – I had been on the Mar-a-Lago payroll for several months and I hadn't found another job yet, so I didn't have a lot of -- I didn't have money to pay for an attorney, and then I was subpoenaed a month later.

KARL: Yes. Why was it the women in the Trump White House that -- that led the way on this?

GRIFFIN: For some reason, in moments that call for it, women tend to show an astonishing amount of courage. And I credit these women who are younger than me, had not a senior of titles and stepped forward.

I – I don't think it's in any of our constitutions to be able to lie about what we witnessed and not feel compelled to tell the public. For me, it fundamentally came down to, I want to be able to look my future kids in the eye and say, when history called for it, I – I did the right thing and I had the courage to do it. That matters to me more than any future, you know, job or power structure that might exist if he's president again.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: When we come back, you'll hear their warning on what they fear a second Trump term could mean for the country.

We're back in just two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEAN HANNITY, FOX NEWS HOST (December 5, 2023): You are promising America tonight you would never abuse power as retribution against anybody?

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Except for day one.

HANNITY: Except for?

TRUMP: Look, he's going crazy. Except for day one.

HANNITY: Meaning?

TRUMP: I want to close the border and I want to drill, drill, drill.

HANNITY: That's not – that’s – that’s not – that’s not retribution.

TRUMP: No, no.

HANNITY: I got it.

TRUMP: I'm going to be -- I'm going to be – you know he keeps -- we love this guy. He says, you're not going to be a dictator, are you? I said, no, no, no, other than day one.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was former President Trump saying he'll be a dictator on day one of his second term.

Here's more of my conversation with three women who served in Trump’s White House.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: What would it mean, in your mind, if Donald Trump became president again? What would a second Trump term look like?

GRIFFIN: Fundamentally, a second Trump term could mean the end of American democracy as we know it. And I – I don't say that lightly. We all witnessed him trying to steal a democratic election before and going to historic and unconstitutional lengths to do so. And that just shows that he's willing to basically break every barrier to get into power and to stay in power. But also I'm very concerned what -- about what the term would actually look like.

MATTHEWS: We don't need to speculate what a second Trump term would look like because we already saw it play out. To this day he still doubles down on the fact that he thinks that the election was stolen and fraudulent. And then his rhetoric has just gotten increasingly erratic. I mean he has literally called for things like doing away with parts of the Constitution, wanting to weaponize the DOJ, to enact revenge on his political enemies.

HUTCHINSON: The fact that he feels that he needs to lean into being a dictator alone shows that he is a weak and feeble man who has no sense of character and integrity and has no sense of leadership.

GRIFFIN: Everyone who was in the West Wing, and frankly a lot of Cabinet secretaries, they know how dangerous Trump is. People who I have the deepest level of respect for, like my former boss, Vice President Mike Pence, he's seen more than any of us have seen. He knows more than any of us know. And I would just hope, in this moment, when we are less than a year out -- or basically a year out from the election, that he would think about speaking out more forcefully just about the unfitness of Donald Trump.

This is not about politics. It's not about policy. It is about the character of the man who's the leader of the free world.

KARL: Yeah, because, even now, even three years later, almost, you know -- there are many that haven't come out, who know exactly what you all know, or know more.

MATTHEWS: I think it's really easy to paint all of these Republicans with a broad brush and say that they're doing it for, you know, their own personal ambitions, which I think is a large majority of them, but I think another thing that we have to consider a factor is that a lot of these people won't come forward, even if privately they'll acknowledge that Trump is unfit or will privately acknowledge that the 2020 election wasn't stolen.

It's because they know that they will face death threats, that their families will face death threats. I knew that, coming forward and speaking out against Donald Trump, I could potentially face security threats or death threats, online harassment. Despite all the personal sacrifice, I knew that ultimately it was the right thing to do. And so I just would encourage others to come forward because they're -- we're running out of time in order to try to stop Trump from being in the Oval Office again.

KARL: His campaign theme is retribution. I mean, this is the centerpiece of his campaign. He says, "I am your retribution."

This is a tough question, but let me ask each of you. Are you worried that you will face that retribution if he comes back in?

GRIFFIN: It is a very real concern. I've met with former Cabinet secretaries very recently who were also on this, you know, potential theoretical list, and -- and they're worried about it.

Listen. I'll say this, with Donald Trump, is what scares me as much as him and his retribution is the almost cult-like following he has over his most diehard supporters. The -- the threats, the harassment, the death threats that you get when he targets you, and he's deliberate in targeting, is -- is really horrifying and has no place in our American discourse and is unlike anything I've seen in the decades-plus I've been in politics.

I'm less worried for any, like, personal aspect for me, but it is -- he knows how to use government better this time. He can put in diehard loyalists who can weaponize every level of government against his detractors, against the American people, against the media. It's -- it's almost too scary to fully wrap your head around what it could look like.

MATTHEWS: The American people, and people in general, have short memories. And so they might forget the chaos of the Trump years. And also, they might not just be paying attention to what he's saying now and the threat to democracy that exists. And so it does really concern me, if he makes it to a general, that he could win.

And so I'm still hopeful that we can defeat him in the primary, but we're running out of time.

HUTCHINSON: Our singular focus needs to be, if he is the nominee, on making sure that he is not elected the president again next November.

KARL: Even if that means electing a Democrat?

MATTHEWS: It's really disappointing because I look at these options and I'm upset with them, but at the end of the day, I trust one person with our government and democracy than I do the other, and so I've never voted for a Democrat in my life, but I think that, in this next election, I would put policy aside and choose democracy.

HUTCHINSON: Right now, there's a large portion of the population that's not recognizing their mistakes, that's not working to continue to better our country. And right now we're completely splitting down the middle.

On one side, that's the truth, and that is reality, and the other side is propaganda and lies. This is a fundamental election to continue to safeguard our institutions and our constitutional republic. But if we crumble as a nation, we're setting the example for generations to come, not only in the United States, but on the global stage, that democracy is an experiment and it's not guaranteed. We're extremely fragile as a country, and so is the democratic experiment.

KARL: In response to our interview with these three women who worked in the Trump White House, the Trump campaign gave us a statement, calling them, quote, "ungrateful grifters who used opportunities given to them by President Trump to benefit themselves," and who had gone, quote, "full Judas."

When we come back, can Congress cut a deal on border security and get new aid to Ukraine?

The chairman of the House Intelligence Committee joins us, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS (D), NEW YORK CITY, NY: This is a national problem that has only been exasperated by Governor Abbott’s cruel, inhuman politics. And that requires additional, national solutions. The federal government must take responsibility and lead on this humanitarian crisis, instead of leaving it for cities and localities to handle.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: New York City Mayor Eric Adams weighing in this week on the influx of migrants and its impact on cities across the country.

Let’s bring in House Intelligence Committee Chair Mike Turner of Ohio.

Thank you for being here.

REP. MIKE TURNER, INTELLIGENCE COMMITTEE CHAIR & (R) OHIO: Good morning.

KARL: Before we get to the border, I just want to ask you, we -- overnight more clashes with the Houthis in the Red Sea. The Navy actually taking out four of these little Houthi ships that were attacking a merchant ship in the region.

What -- what’s your sense of how significant that is?

TURNER: Well, I think what’s significant is that the administration continues to not respond to the Houthi escalation in the area and look really to the operations that are going on in Yemen.

This really, though, is the -- is the Iran issue. I mean the Houthis, Hezbollah, Hamas are all, you know, satellites funded, trained by Iran itself. This administration has been very timid in responding to escalation by Iran. And in order to be able to address this, they’re going to have to look at operations into Yemen where the capabilities are resonant, where Iran continues to reload them as they attack the commercial shipping areas and put at risk U.S. military.

KARL: So -- so should the president be ordering attacks on Houthi positions in Yemen?

TURNER: I think the president absolutely has to look at what actions need to be taken in Yemen to be able to prevent the Houthis to continue to put commercial and military vessels at risk. The fact that the president’s not doing that is giving Iran a total pass, an ability to operate without consequences in the area.

These are -- this is a franchise of Iran again, just like Hezbollah and Hamas are -- is. And the administration’s timidry (ph) is really, you know, very curious.

KARL: Although now you've had three ships, small, small boats that have been taken out. They have been killed. But, again, they were -- this was -- looks like self defense by the Navy.

But I also want to ask you about extraordinary events over the weekend in Ukraine. President Biden is saying that we're witnessing the most extensive aerial attacks on Ukraine since the start of the war. We now see Ukraine has hit a -- a city inside Russia. How concerned are you about events in Ukraine?

TURNER: Well, I mean, you know, very -- I think this -- a lot of this stems again from the fact that the administration is not providing the type of aid and assistance to Ukraine to be able to do the job that needs to be done. The administration's open policy is for Ukraine to be -- to push Russia out of -- of Ukraine, to even -- to recapture Crimea, but they're not giving them the weapon systems and the capabilities to do so.

And now, the -- Russia claims that the -- the missile attack into Ukraine as a result of the attack that occurred on their naval vessel in -- in Crimea, certainly that -- that, you know, was followed by them -- by the announcement of them withdrawing their naval capability from Crimea. That makes Ukraine more safe.

Now, as we -- we see with these types of attacks that Russia is doing, where they said that this was revenge or -- or a retaliatory response, this is not going to cause the -- the -- the war to tilt one way or another. Russia is not going to win by a missile barrage into Ukraine. What's happening on the battlefield, though, is -- is a stasis. Russia is unable to -- to make significant gains in Ukraine. And that certainly goes to the Ukrainian's will.

KARL: But let me read you something that we heard from the Ukrainian foreign minister over the weekend about this latest aerial assault. He said, "Today, millions of Ukrainians awoke to the loud sound of explosions. I wish those sounds of explosions in Ukraine could be heard all around the world, in all major capitals, headquarters and parliaments, which are currently debating further support for Ukraine."

You mentioned your concern that the Biden Administration isn't giving Ukraine what it needs. But, what about the problem in the House? I mean are -- are you going to come to an agreement that will provide additional funding to Ukraine?

TURNER: Absolutely. The -- the funding for Ukraine issue is, as you know, is tied up in the issue of the administration's failure to address the border crisis that we have and the -- the six million people that have crossed the border during the Biden Administration. But every time there has been, on the House floor, a provision to support Ukraine funding, it's been well over 300 out of 435 members who -- who have supported. There will continue to be support.

But the aspect is not the -- the amount of support, it's what is supported and what is provided. The administration has been given the ability to provide long-range lethal weapons and lethal weapons that would make a difference, the type that Ukraine is calling for, that could change the outcome of -- of really Russia's configuration, its deployment in the area, and the Biden Administration fails to do so.

KARL: So, it's tied up in this issue of the border. It looks like they're working towards a deal between the Senate and the White House. What is your sense? Will there be an agreement that can actually pass in the House?

TURNER: Well, the issue really comes down to the administration changing its policy on the border. You know, back to six million people have crossed the border since the Biden Administration has come to be.

KARL: More than a quarter million in -- in December alone.

TURNER: And -- right. Exactly. Unbelievable numbers…

KARL: Yes.

TURNER: …in just December. So, the administration needs a fix. Also, we cannot continue this. You know, you compare the six million that have crossed the border so far, there are only 11 million people in my home state of -- of Ohio. So you have, you know, this comparative of, if this continues, it's an unprecedented burden. You saw the mayor of New York. We have cities across the country who are having, you know, huge impacts, who are calling on the administration to address it.

This is their opportunity to come to Congress, say we'll change this -- these policies, we'll address the issue of -- of securing our border. And then, of course, we'll move forward with the rest of the national security package that includes Ukraine and Israel.

KARL: So, let's get specific just for a moment. The deal that's being talked about in the Senate, as we understand it, is toughening asylum protocols for migrants arriving at the U.S.-Mexico border, as well as bolstering the personnel at the border -- border patrol. Is that going to be enough?

TURNER: Well --

KARL: For the Republicans in the House?

TURNER: Certainly have to bolster the -- the personnel. And that really is a funding issue. But policies need to change. The "Remain in Mexico" policy worked during the Trump Administration. It -- it significantly impacted the flow and the ability for people to present themselves in the United States.

And, also, you know, we're -- we're going to need a border that -- that is -- has a barrier. We're going to have to have some controls of our border. Every sovereign nation has to control their border. This is something the administration has an opportunity to step up to the plate right now and address.

KARL: And what's at stake if they -- if you don't have an agreement here? I mean not just in terms of the border, because you've tied this to Israel and -- and to Ukraine.

TURNER: Remember, the administration tied them together. When they proposed the national security package, they included border funding. It was Israel, Asia, Ukraine and the border. So, they began with their salvo of negotiations on the border. They just need to come to the table in a meaningful way.

KARL: OK. All right, Congressman Mike Turner, chair of the Intelligence Committee in the House, thank you very much for joining us.

TURNER: Thanks, Jon.

KARL: Coming up, Maine and Colorado take Trump off the ballot. When is the Supreme Court going to weigh in? We’ll be right back with the powerhouse roundtable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: The roundtable is here and apparently ready with their predictions for 2024.

We’re back in a moment.

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NEW HAMPSHIRE VOTER: What was the cause of the United States Civil War?

FORMER GOV. NIKKI HALEY, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA & REPUBLICAN PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think the cause of the Civil War was basically how government was going to run, the freedoms and what people could and couldn't do.

NEW HAMPSHIRE VOTER: In the year 2023, it's astonishing to me that you answered that question without mentioning the word slavery.

HALEY: What do you want me to say about slavery?

The first thing I should have said was slavery. I completely agree with that. When you grow up in the South, slavery's a given. Like, when you think of the Civil War, you know it was about slavery.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Attempted clean-up from Nikki Haley, as she drew criticism from all sides for those remarks on the Civil War this week in New Hampshire.

Let's dive into it with our powerhouse roundtable, ABC News political director Rick Klein; Politico Playbook co-author Rachael Bade; former DNC chair Donna Brazile; and senior editor of 'The Dispatch' Sarah Isgur.

So before we get to the Civil War, and we will, Donna, what -- what did you think, watching those women from the Trump White House telling their story?

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I -- I think, when we finally close the chapter, if we will ever close the chapter, on January 6th and the Trump administration, those three women will come to mind. They showed enormous courage, not only in their testimony before the January 6th Committee, but I think even now they're showing courage by telling their truth, sticking by their story and helping to shape the narrative of 2024, which is this is about democracy. And they laid it out.

KARL: And there were others. I mean, Stephanie Grisham, who had been the press secretary, resigned on January 6th. Olivia Troye, who advised Mike Pence on national security. And of course, there were men, too, people like -- like Bill Barr.

But -- but, Sarah, let me ask you. The -- Trump is out this morning on Truth Social essentially attacking these women already -- it's clearly struck a nerve -- pointing out that they had all praised him and praised him even as they left the White House, which I think is part of the point. These were real Trump loyalists until they turned, and turned decisively.

SARAH ISGUR, 'THE DISPATCH' SENIOR EDITOR, FORMER TRUMP JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, I mean, I think the bigger question that they bring up multiple times is "Where's everyone else?"

And not to plug Rachael's book here, but it makes me...

(LAUGHTER)

ISGUR: ... really think about what could have happened, what should have happened, frankly, if impeachment charges had been brought immediately after January 6th, if they had been narrowly focused. Pelosi tried to make it this broad, sort of, partisan impeachment. She waited so long. The purpose seemed to be to force Republicans not to vote to impeach the president for political gain in the midterms, instead of actually trying to impeach Donald Trump and preventing him to run for office.

RACHAEL BADE, POLITICO PLAYBOOK CO-AUTHOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTING POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: But I also wonder where those -- where these voices were back then. I mean, by the time a lot of these people came forward to tell their truth -- and they should get -- you know, should get plaudits for coming forward and speaking - it was, you know, a year after, a year and a half after, not just these women, but also Pence world, too.

By that time, sentiments around January 6th had very much hardened. What would have happened if we would have heard these stories right after January 6th, when Trump was the most vulnerable? I guess we'll never know.

RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Where they were then, and also where they are now. I -- I'm struck, Jon, by how powerful that is and how distant it seems. We're three years away. We're also two weeks away from the start of voting. And those kind -- those voices, that argument, is basically missing from the Republican primary. Donald Trump is the far-and-away front-runner, and that is barely part of the conversation right now.

KARL: And they are all, like, pleading for another candidate to win that primary but seem all poised to vote Democrat if he doesn't.

So I want to get to -- to Nikki Haley. But first I want to do a little bit of a flashback to what Nikki Haley said back in 2010 about the Civil War and the way one of her opponents is seizing on that now in New Hampshire.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY, (R) FORMER GOVERNOR OF SOUTH CAROLINA & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think you had one side of the civil war that was fighting for tradition and I think you had another side of the civil war that was fighting for change.

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER GOVERNOR OF NEW JERSEY & 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The civil war was not a choice between change and tradition. It was a choice between right and wrong, and that's it, and we want to stand on the side of right.

(APPLAUSE)

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, Rick, is this going to hurt Haley or does it weirdly help her among Republicans in South Carolina? What -- what -- what does this all mean?

KLEIN: I think for the politics, it's less about the substance and her trying to get it right finally and say, "Yes, it was about slavery," than about what it potentially says about her candidacy. I talked to some of the rival campaigns including the DeSantis campaign, they view this as a defining moment in the campaign because to their mind, this shows her to be untested, this shows her to be someone that has been very careful for a long time and for a lot of people that are saying, who's the alternative? Who's the person that can take on Trump? Their hope at least is that this blunts any momentum Nikki Haley might have felt because now, people are starting to ask that question. Maybe it elongates the primary a little bit, maybe it gives DeSantis a little bit of an edge, as all of these campaigns try to be the one standing against Trump.

(LAUGH)

KARL: Donna?

BRAZILE: Well, you know, I've thought about this for a long time, only because I thought Nikki Haley -- Governor Haley -- a governor of a southern state that, you know, chose to secede from a nation, she would know better. But, clearly, she's trying to swim in the same swamp as many of her other Republican colleagues and folks don't understand that slavery was and still is a defining moment in our country, and to not understand how to answer that question, and it took several days, hours for her to get her answer right. I was disappointed in her personally. But look, on the other hand, I don't think it's going to hurt her at all. You know why? Because I don't think Republicans give a damn. I really don't.

BADE: I will say also that this -- this is the risk you run when you have a strategy like Nikki has had -- Nikki Haley has had this whole campaign. Everything is very choreographed. She doesn't do a lot of media interviews. She very much sticks to her stump speech in all of her stops, and that's working for her. She's seeing a movement in the polls, overtaking Ron DeSantis in the early states, but it also means that you're less practiced when you get questions like this at a Town Hall.

And clearly, this is not one that she anticipated. She didn't know how to answer it at that moment, and there was blowback. And now that she is under the hot lights right now, she is center stage, she is the one that if anyone can overtake Trump, people are thinking it's probably her. So, she's got to get used to sort of being lose on her -- quick on her feet, I should say, because there is going to be more moments like this I think.

KARL: I mean, it's not exactly a got you question.

(LAUGH)

KARL: No.

ISGUR: Well, here's why Nikki Haley flubbed it though. She thought it was, right? It was clearly an unfriendly question coming from the audience. This is like a perfect campaign moment the candidates face time and time again. They're trying to anticipate where someone is trying to trap them, and so they try to give a cagey answer, not thinking, like, no, wait, this was an easy question. Just answer the question.

Look, it's very French Revolution. There go my people. I must follow them for I am their leader. Candidates do this across the board. The thing that will hurt her and what she did was the cleanup. It's not the answer that she gave that was bad, but in Republican politics, then having to backpedal, having to do the cleanup. She is now how many new cycles have we done of Nikki Haley having to re-answer the question. That's what Republican primary voters like so much about Donald Trump. That he gives the wrong answer and he's like, "Yeah, dictator on day one. What are you going to do?"

BRAZILE: And he doubles down on it.

ISGUR: Yeah.

BRAZILE: And that's -- that was her problem. She didn't know how to come out of it.

ISGUR: Yeah.

BRAZILE: And -- and now, we're going back and looking at what she said in 2010, in 2015 when she took down the flag. We have so much video of Nikki Haley. But again…

ISGUR: But it is…

BRAZILE: I don't think it's going to hurt her.

ISGUR: As someone also said, at the point that you're concerned about how your primary voters are going to be angry with you, if you say the Civil War was about slavery, maybe think about what that means.

(LAUGH)

BADE: Yes.

KARL: But you know, it's -- it's interesting. We saw DeSantis attack her, Christie attack her. She's trying to deal with it. Where's Trump?

(LAUGH)

KARL: I mean, it's -- so -- so while the three of them are engaged in this battle to be the non-Trump candidate, Trump is campaigning very little. He does have some events in the coming two weeks in Iowa, but he's on the campaign a fraction of what these are in, and he's winning. And he's winning. He's out with an ad that directly takes a shot at Biden over the border. He's already, like, seems to be waging the general election.

BRAZILE: Look, Donald Trump came in second place in Iowa -- in the Iowa caucuses back in 2016. He won a sliver of voters in the western part, a couple of voters in some of the other rural areas, but he didn't carry Polk County. He didn't carry Jasper. He didn't carry some of the big counties, Dubuque. He didn't carry the industrial east -- eastern part. So, Trump is going to focus right now on making sure that he win those caucuses. He win the caucuses and he wins them decisively, so he can go into New Hampshire and end this primary battle, so he can focus on his legal trials.

KARL: And we just showed some numbers. Trump is far away winning nationally.

BRAZILE: Yeah.

KARL: He's got that huge lead in Iowa and New Hampshire, not quite as big as the national lead, but if he wins those two states, Rick.

KLEIN: Yeah.

KARL: Why?

KLEIN: It's probably game set match, and quickly. I mean, there's a very compelling case that the Trump campaign will put forward now to say that he will be the de facto nominee by the middle of March, and on the current trajectory. That’s even --

KARL: I mean, maybe by the end of January.

KLEIN: Well, January if other candidates drop out, but if they don't. I’m saying, even if these five candidates remain, there's still a very viable path for him to have it wrapped up shortly after Super Tuesday.

And that’s kind of the wild thing. We have these very long campaigns. This could end quickly if Trump isn't stopped early, and the best chance to do it is as Donna points out is, Iowa or New Hampshire. One of these candidates, DeSantis, Christie, Haley, somebody has to emerge out of those early states as the alternative. Otherwise, it’s going to be over.

ISGUR: But even if they do, you're heading into Super Tuesday and Super Tuesday is built for national name ID, not really needing to campaign much on the ground. It’s not retail politics.

Even if you stop him there, I don't see how these candidates compete on Super Tuesday and especially when as you said, Jon, they're fighting amongst each other on this. They're not really still going after Donald Trump. She won't rule out being his VP. There's a whole lot of keeping doors open.

KARL: And in terms of the legal battles here, I mean, we have Maine and Colorado trying to keep Trump off the ballot. What do -- I mean, the Supreme Court, I guess we're checking our inbox every few minutes. They've got to decide whether to weigh in soon.

BADE: You know, you got to feel for John Roberts. The chief justice hates when the court is sort of drawn into the mudsling of politics. I mean, I remember reporting how much he abhorred being part of the first impeachment of Donald Trump, just overseeing the trial in the Senate. This is 100 percent going to put the Supreme Court smack in the middle of 2024 where John Roberts doesn't want it to be.

And either way they rule on this, people are going to accuse them of being anti-Democratic because if they rule against taking Trump off the ballot and say he can be on the ballot, then they're going to look like they're going against the Constitution. But if they knock it down, they're going to look like they're overturning the will of the people. So, it's bad either way for him.

KARL: OK. We don't have a lot of time. So, I want to get to our predictions or most surprising thing that you expect in 2024.

Rick?

KLEIN: We have not heard the end of the third party challenges. Right now, we've got Bobby Kennedy Jr. We’ve got Cornel West. We have No Labels and anything that may do with Joe Manchin.

I’m going to predict there's going to be more talk of that -- maybe somewhere from the business world, maybe a more a stronger Republican, particularly as Sarah points out if this is done fast. If it’s Biden and Trump and we know that by February or March, we're going to see more candidates, not fewer.

BRAZILE: Turnout will exceed expectations and it's going to help Joe Biden win decisively next year.

KARL: Okay. Donna, out on a limb.

ISGUR: Rick took mine. We sat in the green room and I told him I wasn't going to give him mine, and then he took it anyway.

Yes, I think third parties are going to be the story here. We're going to see the strongest third party candidacy since Ross Perot.

BADE: So, we just ran a story in “Politico” about the worst predictions of 2023.

KARL: Yeah.

BADE: So, I’m going to be just --

KARL: What was the worst?

BADE: -- dodge this question.

In my view, that we were going to have a shutdown and I was actually one of the people making it, but I did say that Kevin McCarthy would not be speaker long. So, I do get credit for that.

So, my prediction just for fun is that you know, Biden and Trump will drop out of the race and Barbie will be next president.

KARL: All right. I predict I’ll like Donna’s gumbo (ph) in the green room when this is over.

We'll be right back.

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KARL: As we turn the page to 2024, we wanted to take a moment to recognize the hard work of the people who make this show possible each and every Sunday. Have a safe and happy new year.

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