'This Week' Transcript 10-27-24: Sen. Lindsey Graham, Mark Cuban and Nebraska Senate Candidate Dan Osborn

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 27, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Closing message. Election Day just over a week away. More than 40 million votes already cast. And the race between Donald Trump and Kamala Harris, too close to call.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will win because we know and understand what is at stake.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We will put America first, and we will take back the nation that we love.

KARL: Celebrities are out too.

BEYONCE, MUSICIAN: We must vote, and we need you.

JASON ALDEAN, MUSICIAN: Do not sit this one out. Get out and vote.

KARL: This morning, our conversation with billionaire entrepreneur Mark Cuban on what he thinks will happen if Trump wins, and what he really thinks of Kamala Harris.

MARK CUBAN, ENTREPRENEUR AND HARRIS CAMPAIGN SUPPORTER & CO-FOUNDER, COST PLUS DRUGS: She knows how to be a CEO. She can have me out there talking business. She can be out there talking about Donald Trump.

KARL: We’ll also hear from Trump ally Lindsey Graham. Where does the race stand? Who has the edge in early voting? Rick Klein has the numbers from our new poll.

Plus, analysis from Chris Christie and Donna Brazile.

And –

DAN OSBORN, (I) NEBRASKA SENATE CANDIDATE: And I'm running as an independent because I'm frustrated. The fighting, the infighting, the outfighting, not getting anything done.

KARL: Independent candidate Dan Osborn is surging in deep red Nebraska. He's shaking up the battle for control of the Senate. And he has big plans to shake up Washington too. We traveled to Omaha to meet this year's most surprising candidate.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

For most of us, Election Day is already here. Virtually all of us live in places where you don't have to wait until November 5th to cast your ballot. More than 40 million Americans have already voted. This morning, we're going to talk about where the race stands, who's up in the polls, who's down, the tactics the candidates are using to convince undecided voters and to get their supporters to turn out. But this isn't a sporting event. This is about much more than tactics or polls. If there is one thing both sides agree on, it's that America is making a choice that will say a great deal about what kind of a nation we are, and what kind of a nation we may become.

Four years ago, Donald Trump became the first president in American history to refuse to accept the results of a presidential election, and to do everything in his power to try to overturn the will of the people. It was an effort that continued even after he left the White House.

This time, Trump, once again, seems to be making it clear he won't accept the results if he loses. But he might not have to. Donald Trump has a very good chance of winning this election. He might even be, at this moment, the front-runner. This even after his former chief of staff issued a stark warning this week that Trump wants to rule as a dictator, that he meets the textbook definition of a fascist.

Once again, this is not a normal campaign. But precisely because the stakes are so high, let's bring in our political director and Washington bureau chief, Rick Klein, to help us understand where the race stands now.

Rick.

RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, Jon, right now this race looks as close as it actually was in 2016 and 2020, which is to say it is basically a tossup. And if you look at the FiveThirtyEight battleground state polling, you see some momentum for Trump in some of the key battlegrounds, but all of these numbers, within a point or two points, well within polling margins of error. And it means we truly don't know who's going to win on election night.

But as you mentioned, some 40 million Americans have already voted early. We, of course, don’t know who they voted for quite yet, but far more Republicans are voting early this time than voted early last time. Donald Trump has changed his tune somewhat on that. And, of course, Covid changed a lot of the patterns, so it makes comparisons difficult.

But we're seeing some interesting things in the battleground states. In Georgia, turnout is already almost half of what it was in 2020. Again, with nine days left.

KARL: Wow.

KLEIN: And check this out, likely Republicans are actually outpacing likely Democrats in the early voting so far. A huge shift from four years ago.

KARL: Wow.

KLEIN: But Democrats have a lot more of their voters still on the table. They could still be out there. And in Pennsylvania, we're seeing Democrats basically doubling up on Republicans. A two to one margin. But that’s down from last time as well. One Harris campaign official said basically this is – this is not Republicans growing the pie as much as they're starting to eat their pie a little bit earlier. So, we're seeing that kind of a – of a shift.

Bottom line is though, we don't know what's going to happen in this race. And so many of the voters we've seen so far are basically people that vote every time. The people that are going to decide this election almost certainly haven't voted yet, Jon.

KARL: Now, we have our new ABC/Ipsos poll this morning. It shows Kamala Harris with a slight lead, four points nationally. That's within the margin of error. And, of course, Rick, other polls showed it tied or with Trump leading slightly.

KLEIN: Yes, 51-47 is not a safe lead. In fact, it narrows even tighter if you add in third-party candidates, you add in the battleground state polls. And as you mentioned, other polling out in the last couple days has this even. Maybe Trump up a point or two, or Harris up a point or two.

Trump's top issues continue to dominate so much of the conversation. We're seeing in our poll him as viewed as better equipped to handle the economy, better equipped to handle immigration and the border, but we are seeing fewer voters cite inflation as a top issue. It may be Harris breaking through a bit on that messaging. Harris' top issues, meanwhile, include abortion rights, big edge for her there, and protecting democracy, an eight-point edge for Harris. That plays right into the candidate's closing messages. We have her a big event on Tuesday that is going to hammer that point home.

KARL: Now, one thing that caught my eye in a poll, 49 percent said they believe Donald Trump is a fascist, but 8 percent of those people say they're going to vote for him anyway.

KLEIN: Jon, you said it earlier, this is not a normal election in so many ways. We see Harris with an edge on all of these personal attributes. But if it comes down to the issues, it's a different race.

Jon, this is as tight a race as we've seen, and as unpredictable a race as I've ever covered.

KARL: All right, Rick Klein, thank you very much.

Kamala Harris was joined last night in Michigan by former first lady, Michelle Obama. It was her first appearance on the campaign trail since the Democratic Convention. And she, once again, was making her case against Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHELLE OBAMA, FORMER U.S. FIRST LADY: Can someone tell me why we are once again holding Kamala to a higher standard than her opponent? We expect her to be intelligent and articulate, to have a clear set of policies, to never show too much anger, to prove time and time again that she belongs. But for Trump, we – we expect nothing at all. No understanding of policy, no ability to put together a coherent argument, no honesty, no decency, no morals. Instead, too many people are willing to write off his childish, mean-spirited antics by saying, well, Trump's just being Trump.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: All right, let's bring in top Trump ally, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: Good morning.

KARL: Great to have you in the studio.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

KARL: Quite an intro for you there from – from Michelle Obama.

But first –

GRAHAM: Yes. Yes, I think she’s not undecided.

KARL: Clearly. So, but let me just ask you just straight-up, where do you think this race stands?

GRAHAM: I like where we're at. The – the issues that mean the most to independents in your own poll are immigration, the economy, and inflation. And Biden won independents by 13 in 2020 in your poll. She's up by one. So, I really like where we're at.

Sixty-one percent of the people in "The New York Times" poll said we're on the wrong track. So, that’s the number I look at most, Jonathan, is wrong track. If you’re an incumbent, and she is, and 60 percent of the people plus believe the nation’s on the wrong track, and Trump still leading on the issues most important to people in their daily lives, Trump wins.

KARL: And she's clearly trying to turn this into a referendum.

GRAHAM: Yes, about him.

KARL: You know, to – not a referendum, but a choice.

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: Who do you want?

GRAHAM: Right.

KARL: But – but let me ask you, in terms of Trump's closing arguments. I think I know where you think they should be, but he's been all over the place. You know, there's the enemy within stuff.

GRAHAM: Yes. Yes.

KARL: He was on with Joe Rogan for three hours –

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: Talking about, among other things, life on Mars.

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: What – what do you think he needs to do – what – what should the closing argument be?

GRAHAM: Just go back to – to what people care about the most. People are hurting. Inflation is high. The economy has turned the wrong way. Immigration is broken.

Kamala Harris' America is you basically have to mortgage your house to fill up your car. And when you go to the gas station, you're likely to get robbed by an illegal immigrant. And your daughter’s playing against some guy in – in volleyball. I mean, that’s the America that people don't like.

And Michelle Obama's a good person. She's very articulate. But every time the Obamas pick the Democratic nominee, we win. You know, Obama picked Clinton. We beat her. They threw Biden over for Harris. And I think Trump's going to beat Harris simply because she's had a lot of time now to convince people she'll put the country back on the right track, and all the wrong track numbers are holding. When you ask people, who do you trust most to fix the problems you – you care most about, it's Trump, not her.

KARL: Well, let me ask you about where Trump is right now. I mean we had this extraordinary event this week.

GRAHAM: Yes, I heard that.

KARL: John Kelly, who, of course, was – was his secretary of homeland security. His chief of staff.

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: Longest serving chief of staff, saying that he's a textbook definition of a fascist.

GRAHAM: Yeah.

KARL: That he wants to be a dictator -- and he said a lot more than that.

GRAHAM: He has, and he lost his son in Iraq. General Kelly, I know him, had a good relationship with him.

But he's undermining a concept that's been good for America I think. Our generals have sort of been apolitical. He's entitled to his opinion I just categorically reject it.

Three weeks before the election you're calling basically Trump “Hitler”, a fascist, is not going to resonate.

What happened to joy on the Democratic side? They went from joy to now Trump is Hitler. That's desperation.

KARL: Well --

GRAHAM: As to General Kelly --

KARL: Yeah.

GRAHAM: -- I would say that the state of Israel, Donald Trump is the most popular politician from the West because he stood by the state of Israel. Hitler wanted to kill all the Jews. President Trump has been a friend of Israel, unlike any other.

So, no wars on his watch, the border were secure, inflation was down, mortgage rates were below 3 percent when President Trump was president. Now, they've over doubled.

I think General Kelly's criticisms are not based on facts. I think it's emotional. It's sad and it's not going to matter.

KARL: But -- well, first of all, obviously, Kelly's not alone in saying that.

GRAHAM: Yeah.

KARL: We heard General Milley who Donald Trump made the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff saying he's fascist to a core -- to the core. And it's not -- so let's put aside the word fascist for a second.

GRAHAM: Yeah.

KARL: Kelly also said that Donald Trump disparaged those American heroes who died for our country as losers.

GRAHAM: So here's --

KARL: And -- and it wasn't -- he's not saying he's Hitler, but he repeatedly said Hitler did good things.

GRAHAM: Well -- so here's what I would say to America --

KARL: I mean, did he make it up? I mean, I’m asking. I mean, you know Kelly. I mean --

(CROSSTALK)

GRAHAM: -- President Trump denied that he said that, but let's look at the record rather than the rhetoric. Nobody rebuilt the military stronger than Donald Trump except maybe Ronald Reagan. Nobody I’ve seen him -- listen, I’ve had a lot of interaction with him so I categorically reject the idea that he has anything but admiration for those who serve in sacrifice. I have seen him interact with the military.

So this idea he's hostile to those who serve is not borne out. When he was president, America was strong. The military had what they needed. We went after our enemies. People were afraid of America.

Since Biden-Harris has been -- since they've been in charge, everything's gone to crap. It's all broken. We had a secure border, now, it's broken. We had no wars, now the whole world's on fire. Mortgage rates have doubled. We're on the wrong track.

With all due respect to these generals, America is ready to move differently and Donald Trump is the best hope to put out the fires in the world to end the war in Ukraine to bring about peace in the Mideast, to restore broken border and get the economy humming. He did it once. He can did it -- do it again.

She had a chance. She failed.

KARL: But -- but again, it's not just generals. I mean, it's -- it's Kelly, chief of staff, Mattis, chairman of the joint chiefs. Jim Mattis, obviously, another four-star --

GRAHAM: Yeah.

KARL: -- who was his -- you know, chosen to be the secretary of defense. This is not a minor position.

And he said this of Donald Trump: His use of the presidency to destroy trust in our election and to poison our respect for fellow citizens has been enabled by pseudo political leaders whose names will live in infamy as profiles in cowardice.

Now, General Mattis, Secretary Mattis --

GRAHAM: Yeah.

KARL: -- is somebody you called a role model for the concept of duty, honor and country. Can you really dismiss --

GRAHAM: Now, now, he's weighed in politically. He has every right to his opinion but to General Mattis, I think you're rewriting history here because some reason, I don't know what that reason, is you're not going to be able to change what President Trump did.

He killed Soleimani. He put Iran in a box. He put Israel the strongest position they've been in.

He rebuilt our military. Russia didn't invade Ukraine. The border was the most secure in the last 40 years. Inflation was down. Mortgage rates were half where they are today.

He did all of that. He did that. He was a strong leader on the things that mattered the most. Whether you like him or not, that's up to you.

He's not a fascist. He's not Hitler. And that shows you how desperate this campaign is.

You got three retired generals, have been out of the game for a while. Three weeks before the election trying to replace joy with fear.

KARL: But --

GRAHAM: And let me say one thing to these generals, I admire you, I respect you, but for 20 years, you were given and others billions of dollars to train the Iraqi and the Afghan army, and they folded like a cheap suit.

How about a little self reflection about the job you did before you criticize others?

KARL: I mean, I could go through all the good things you've said about all three of those --

GRAHAM: Yeah.

KARL: -- those men. And look, Donald Trump --

GRAHAM: That was before they weighed in and turned America upside down –

KARL: Donald – Donald Trump put these –

GRAHAM: Using rhetoric that's dangerous and is off base.

So, they decided to do this. You're the ones that want to weigh in. OK, if you want to call him Hitler, then –

KARL: They didn't – they didn’t call him Hitler.

GRAHAM: Well, they’re –

KARL: What they did is – is they warned of what they saw.

GRAHAM: They’re trying to scare Americans that this man can't fix the problems we need fixed. I reject that.

I was there too. I was around him. I don't think he's a fascist. I thought he was a very strong president at a time we needed a strong president. I think he will be a strong president to get this country back on track, to revive our economy, to secure our border, and put out fires.

They're telling you they want four more years of Kamala Harris and four more years of the same policy. To these generals, you're trying to tell America that things are good now. They're terrible now.

KARL: All right, let me just –

GRAHAM: And if she's elected, based on your advice, everything goes to hell at home and abroad. So, reject their advice.

KARL: Now, you have been very critical of the generals, two of them using the word fascist. Mitch McConnell and – and secretary – and Speaker Johnson have been very critical, saying this is inciting violence.

GRAHAM: Yes. Yes.

KARL: How dare you call Donald Trump a fascist.

Let me just play you a little bit about what Donald Trump has had to say about Kamala Harris.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The true divide in American politics today is between these far-left fascists, led by Harris and her group.

We have a fascist person running, who's incompetent.

She's a Marxist, communist, fascist, socialist. She's not actually a socialist. She's gone past that.

Somebody's got to explain this woman (ph). This is a radical left, Marxist, communist, fascist.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I mean, come on.

GRAHAM: Why don't you ask me, do I think Kamala Harris is a fascist? No. Do I think she's a communist? No. I think she's the most liberal person ever to be dominated by a major party. I think she's ineffective. I think she's incompetent. She's had a chance to be the border czar and failed miserably. On her watch, she advised President Biden it was a good thing to get out of Afghanistan. She has been antagonistic to giving Ukraine and Israel the military weapons they need.

KARL: But we can acknowledge that the – when it comes to the insults –

GRAHAM: Yes, I guess –

KARL: They come just as strong, maybe stronger – stronger from Donald Trump.

GRAHAM: But – but you’re not – you’re not –

KARL: All right, we’re – we’re – we’re out of time. We will – we will – we will keep –

GRAHAM: You’re not having Lindsey Graham call her a fascist. She’s just incompetent and incapable and would be a lousy president.

KARL: We will continue this conversation. Thank – thank you, Senator Graham.

GRAHAM: Thank you.

KARL: Coming up, I sit down with billionaire entrepreneur who is stumping for Kamala Harris. My conversation with Mark Cuban, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARK CUBAN, ENTREPRENEUR AND HARRIS CAMPAIGN SUPPORTER & CO-FOUNDER, COST PLUS DRUGS: I invest in so many companies and I talk to so many and I help them. And I see the struggles. I see the opportunity. I see the heart. I see the fear sometimes when you’re running the business. And if Donald Trump is elected, that's 60 percent across the board tariffs, or even worse, can put them out of business, which is exactly why we need Kamala Harris to be the next president of the United States of America.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was billionaire entrepreneur, Mark Cuban, making the case for Vice President Harris on the campaign trail. I sat down with Cuban to discuss why he's backing Kamala Harris. The stakes of this election, and his own political aspirations.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: So you've been out there campaigning with Kamala Harris. How's it looking? Is she going to win?

CUBAN: I think so, for sure. I mean, when you go to one of her campaigns, she is just a dynamic speaker. I mean, the crowd is engaged. The energy is off the charts. I mean, if that's any indication, she's going to win easily.

KARL: So I've heard you say a couple of times that she's not a good salesperson.

CUBAN: Right.

KARL: Isn't that important, not just in the campaign, but in being president?

CUBAN: Well, there's different types of salespeople, right? There are salespeople with lousy products that have to over-sell. That's Donald Trump. Then there's other salespeople who may not be as boisterous and relentless, but know that they have a great product so they don't have to be boisterous and relentless. That's Kamala Harris.

KARL: Now, Trump has a basic message which he gives, and it's not all based on facts, to say the least. But the basic thing is the economy was great when I was president. It's a total disaster ever since, you know, Biden took over. I'm going to make it great again.

How do you -- what do you say to people who are saying, look?

CUBAN: I mean, you can use whatever metric you want. The economy is in great shape. That does not mean every single individual in this country is experiencing all the goodness of the economy. But that was the same under the Trump administration as well. You know, the stock market is at record high. The GDP is at record high. Real wages are greater than inflation. Now inflation is back down, you know, in the 2.5 percent, 3 percent range, variably. Jobs are still, you know, we're getting an incredible jobs report.

This goes back to the salesmanship. And this applies to Joe Biden. You know, I'm not going to throw Joe under the bus, but he's not a great salesperson. Donald Trump is saying this stuff that's not true. And you know the old saying, you repeat a lie enough people will start believing.

KARL: Now you're not a Democrat.

CUBAN: No.

KARL: I mean, you're not a Republican.

CUBAN: No. I think for myself.

KARL: So, and I -- you voted for Nikki Haley in the Republican primary.

CUBAN: I did, yes.

KARL: Would you be supporting her right now if she was the Republican nominee?

CUBAN: Not against Kamala. Against Biden, maybe.

KARL: And what do you make of Kamala now? You've spent time with her.

CUBAN: Sure.

KARL: You've gotten to know her more. You've been out there with her.

CUBAN: Yes.

KARL: What's your sense of her like? Like what kind of president would she be?

CUBAN: I think she'd be great because she's open minded. She's not an ideologue. She's not dogmatic. She wants to get input from everybody. I haven't given her a penny. People think you're giving her a lot of money. No, I haven't given a penny.

KARL: Why haven't you?

CUBAN: I haven't given a penny to a candidate since 2002. And they're just like my attitude is, if I have a good idea and if I feel passionate about the candidate, I'll help. I don't want it -- I don't want them to work with me because I paid them to work with me.

KARL: What did you think of Harris when she was running for president the first time around, in 2019?

CUBAN: I think I wasn't paying attention. Yes.

KARL: You didn't pay any attention?

CUBAN: But look, when you --

KARL: But you know the position she took. She was Medicare for all. It was a Green New Deal.

CUBAN: But she was she was representing the state of California. You could call the People's Republic of California. Right? And so when you have a far-left state, you know, you're going to do what those your citizens want. When you're representing United States of America, it's a much broader and diverse --

KARL: But she took those positions when she was starting to run for president the first time.

CUBAN: No, I get that. You know, I get that. But here's where we are now. She -- that was not a very long-lived run. And I think she learned the hard way that certain things --

KARL: Do you think she believed that stuff or was she doing it to run?

CUBAN: I think she believed it for sure. But, you know, I mean, look, she has to speak for herself in those things. What I do like about her is she continuously says she's open minded and she's proved it. You know, I've changed a lot of my positions in the past five years. Donald Trump has changed his. I think a lot of reasonable people have changed theirs.

And, you know, to say this was your position for Medicare for all, this was your position on whatever it may be, and to be shocked that somebody changed their mind, it's a bigger shock that someone's shocked.

KARL: Has she done a good enough job explaining to people why she did, why she's changed her mind? On the border, for instance. I mean, has she's done a good enough job?

CUBAN: You know, there's two elements there. One, she's only been running for 13 weeks. And when she started to run, when she replaced Joe Biden, she had a deficit in awareness. You know, even Donald Trump would say, well, I don't even know who Harris is. You guys know who Harris is? And she had negative favorables. And so she had to spend, what, is it, the last 13 weeks just letting people get to know her and, you know, getting to see that she is vibrant, she is smart, she is open minded.

And so when you're trying to win that battle, you're not going to answer all the specifics of every, you know, have the opportunity to answer all the specifics. And the proof is in the pudding. She went from, as I said, negative, and, you know, being right where Joe Biden is. And in 13 weeks, they're in a dead heat and it's a toss-up. That says a lot.

KARL: Well, that's one way to look at it. Another way to look at is that look at the incoming that Trump has had. I mean, he's got his former chief of staff saying that he's a fascist, that he admired Hitler, that he called American heroes suckers and losers because they died in battle for America. And the race is still tied.

CUBAN: Yes. Well, I mean 13 weeks, you know, again, in 13 weeks, how far can anybody go? She's done an amazing thing that I think will be written favorably about in the history books to go from nowhere, you know, from the outhouse to the penthouse. That's not easy.

KARL: Now, she's called Trump a fascist now, too. What do you make of that?

CUBAN: I mean, it's you know, it's not far from her, him calling her a communist.

KARL: Well, he's actually called her a fascist, too. He's called her other names.

CUBAN: A fascist, too. Right.

KARL: Yeah. Everything.

CUBAN: I mean, the name calling. You know, in a normal world, the two parties would get together and say, let's just stop this name calling, right? Let's just focus on the issues.

But this is not a normal world. Donald Trump is not a normal candidate. And I think it's not a stretch to call Donald Trump a fascist. You talked about the people in his cabinet that spoke the same way.

You know, he's talking about the enemy within and going after people using the military. He's talked about mass deportations where, you know, they'll stop people on the street and check their papers. What does that remind you of?

Talking about, you know, knocking on doors and pulling people out and deporting them, what does that remind you of? That's pretty damn close to fascism, if not the definition of fascism.

KARL: So at the risk of going full “Shark Tank”, I'll show you something --

CUBAN: Fire away, Friday nights on ABC.

KARL: Something that Kevin O'Leary said just the other day about this:

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KEVIN O’LEARY, SHARK TANK HOST: The Jan. 6th deal has been in the market forever. This rhetoric from people saying Trump is a Nazi and a fascist is in the market forever. Do you really want to spend your closing statements on old stuff that's already needled into 45 percent of the country that hates him?

(END VIDEO CLIP)

CUBAN: You know, that's like that's like saying, I'm sorry, Mrs. Lincoln, you know, but let's not talk about that. Let's talk about the play.

This is not new, you know, Is it unnerving to a certain extent that, you know, half of America continues to support him? Yes. Is there a reason? In my mind, it's leadership. If you don't have strong leadership and, you know, Joe Biden did a lot of great things, I think, you know, the economy and many other things can, that, you know, the CHIPS Act. There's so many great things he's done. But a leader he's not and he's effective, and I think Kamala is a leader.

KARL: But you do hear from a lot of serious people that -- look, I don't like the rhetoric. I don't like the stuff he says, but I like, I think he'll take the country in a better direction on the economy or whatever.

CUBAN: But then I like the details. You asked him for the details. There are none. And that's one of the reasons I'm a surrogate because I can go into the nitty-gritty of any business topic you want to talk about. And I can tell you the difference between Kamala Harris's plan and whatever -- whatever evidentiary things we have from Donald Trump.

KARL: So I want to ask you about what Trump has said a lot about you. But can I just read one of his posts just to get you?

CUBAN: Sure.

KARL: He says: Mark Cuban is a loser. Wouldn't take his phone calls anymore at the White House, and he went rogue. A weak and pathetic bully, he's got nothing going.

So that's what Trump has you to say.

CUBAN: Well, you left out the best part.

KARL: Oh, I did? I did. Oh, really low club speed. A total non-athlete.

CUBAN: I can out drive him all day any day.

(LAUGHTER)

CUBAN: So what? I don't care. Yeah. We have this give and take when he -- that's who he is. He's very transactional.

KARL: There was a nanosecond where you said that it was a good thing that he got involved in politics --

CUBAN: Yeah, When he first --

KARL: -- when he was running for president.

CUBAN: Yeah. When he first ran, I didn't think he had a chance to win. But I'm like, this is great. You know, he's not a traditional politician, and I thought that would be a net positive. I was wrong.

KARL: Did you -- I know you briefly looked at running in 2020.

CUBAN: Yeah, 2020, yeah.

KARL: 2020.

And what about this time? I mean, there was talk.

CUBAN: No chance.

KARL: No chance at all?

CUBAN: No, I've no interest, no interest in being a politician of any type. I have no interest in serving in the cabinet for Kamala Harris or anybody. I like being a disruptor as an entrepreneur.

KARL: Finally, in the presidential race, you have a situation where both sides are saying that if the other side wins, it's basically the end.

CUBAN: Armageddon, yeah.

KARL: I mean, it's like the worst possible thing. Trump says we won't have a country anymore. Kamala Harris suggests we won't have American democracy anymore.

What do you make of that?

CUBAN: I mean, hyperbole is nothing new.

KARL: And but it's more this year, isn't it?

CUBAN: Yeah, I mean, you know, you hear the stories about people saying, I'll leave the country and all that. If Trump wins, I mean, I'm not going anywhere, but I'm an American first. I'll do whatever I can to help this country wherever I can. And it doesn't matter to me who's president.

KARL: But it's not the end of democracy.

CUBAN: I hope not.

Do I think that Donald Trump has fascist tendencies? Absolutely, positively. I do believe Donald Trump poses a threat. I'm not going to say it's 100 percent, but I think it's greater than zero percent.

And to me, I mean, just look at January 6th. Just look, I mean, literally, if anybody here that works for you, if someone was chanting outside hang Mark Cuban, hang Mark Cuban, you all would rally around me and try to, let's figure this out.

To have somebody who's second in command and they're chanting, hang Mike Pence and you don't care, there's nothing you won't do.

KARL: But with all that, are Democrats going to accept the results?

CUBAN: Yes.

KARL: If Donald Trump wins?

CUBAN: Yes.

KARL: Given all that you just said.

CUBAN: Yes.

KARL: What it means.

CUBAN: Yes, now they'll go to work, you know, and try to make sure our institutions remain solid. But I think this all resides with Donald Trump. Maybe he has a few acolytes that he'll hire that will support him in some of these crazy things like he did before, with fewer adults in the room this time. But I do think those people around him will try to support our own institute -- our long-term institutions.

But I can't say with 100 percent certainty that he won't overcome that and do something that really sets us back. I mean, we wouldn't be the first democracy that had to take a big step back to move forward.

KARL: Our thanks to Mark Cuban.

Coming up next, Chris Christie and Donna Brazil. And later, could an underdog in deep red Nebraska decide control of the Senate? I'll have my conversation with the independent candidate now getting Donald Trump's attention. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: There’s just nine days till our election night coverage here on ABC News.

Let's bring in our powerhouse players. Former DNC chair, Donna Brazile, and former New Jersey governor and presidential candidate, Chris Christie.

Donna, I want to start with you. I – I'm talking to a lot of Democrats who are very nervous about this election. I'm talking to a lot of Republicans who are very confident about this election. What's your level of nervousness?

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Uh, zero. You know why?

KARL: Come on, really?

BRAZILE: Oh, no, man, I'm a street diva. I go out and meet the people where they are. I’ve been – I've been to so many battleground states and cities and talking to people, I don't have time to get nervous.

When people walk up to me, whether I’m in the airport or at the train station or just trekking through, they say, how do you feel? I say, have you voted? There are 65 million Americans with their ballots right now. Turn those ballots in.

So, how do I feel? I feel like we're fighting. I feel like the campaign has a real serious operation to track those who have – who need to turn in their ballots. And I also believe that in the closing nine days, the vice president has to be strong. Forget talking about Donald Trump. Talk about what she's going to do to help the middle class, help the poor, help those who are working every day of their lives and go out there and turn out this vote.

KARL: But her closing argument is about Trump, I mean, largely. It's Trump is a threat to American democracy. Site (ph) – she called her – called him a fascist. I mean it does seem to me that she's closing in on this Trump is a threat closing argument?

BRAZILE: No, I think she's also closing in on, I’m going to lower your costs, I'm going to protect your freedom, I'm going to be the champion for the middle class. I think she can close on all four notes and sound – sound like she understands how to lead the United States of America. And yes, she's competent, she's smart, and she has a tremendous gift, I think, of closing this deal with the American people.

KARL: Chris, it's really something to see the race so close. If anything, Trump may be with a slight lead here at this – at this moment. Even with all that we've seen, John Kelly coming out saying he praised Hitler and he called American heroes suckers and losers, that he's a textbook definition of a fascist. What did you make of how Lindsey Graham defended him on that?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & CONTRIBUTOR: Well, you want to talk about textbook hypocrite, I mean that's – that’s Lindsey. And – and let me just use his own words from the night of January 6th. He said, count me out. I've never been more humiliated and embarrassed for my country than with this president.

Now, look, you can agree with Donald Trump on certain issues. I do. But if you believe that fundamentally he's an embarrassment and a humiliation to this country, how the hell did Lindsey Graham sit in that chair and look in that camera and say the things he said about Donald Trump this morning? This is why people hate politics, Jon, because they know that what Lindsey Graham said on the night of January 6th is what Lindsey Graham really believes.

And by the way, you know it, and so does Donna.

We on the inside know that's what he really thinks, yet he gets on this show and on that camera and gives a whole another story.

KARL: Well --

CHRISTIE: I -- I listened to him that night, I was watching that night and I know Lindsey Graham and I know Lindsey Graham when he was a friend of John McCain --

KARL: So, so this is far -- this is far on Lindsey Graham, and we saw some amazing quotes from Mitch McConnell this week.

CHRISTIE: He’s just emblematic.

KARL: Saying so -- I mean so you have a lot of these people and McConnell's answer to the criticism he had given of Trump which is harsher than what you just read from -- from Lindsey Graham, is it pales in comparison to what J.D. Vance said about him. So this is -- this is across the board.

CHRISTIE: Well, look, it's -- it's emblematic of what Donald Trump has imposed upon these folks and what they've been willing to accept. I mean, the fact is they're scared.

Lindsey Graham this morning, when you see a guy like Lindsey, who's been around for a long time, Jon, going back 30 years now he's been in Washington, D.C., and when you see him yelling like he was yelling this morning, that's a guy who's scared. He's putting on a show for the one man show in Mar-a-Lago or Bedminster wherever he is this morning watching this stuff.

And real American people understand that if that's what you said on the night of January 6, that's what's in your heart and what you believe. And look, in the end, when you talk about what this election is all about I slightly disagree with Donna on this, I -- I don't think the vice president should be closing on Donald Trump. Let her surrogates do it. Her surrogates want to talk about that stuff, she needs to close the deal with disaffected Republicans and with independents, and the way she’s going to close the deal is look in the camera and say what you're going to do for the country.

BRAZILE: I agree, look, you're not disagreeing with me. You're saying the same thing I’m saying. I’m saying, don't waste all your time talking about Donald Trump. We know who Donald Trump is. The country know -- the world knows who Donald Trump.

You need to talk to the voters that you can reach, the independents, the soft Republicans you call them disaffected soft, I call them Americans. I call Democrats who are not excited yet, they're Americans, go and get them. Go find them, go reach them.

Do not think for one minute that a billion spent between all these campaigns and all these ads will get the people out that you need on election night. That's the ball game and that's what the Harris campaign is doing.

KARL: She -- she faces a fundamental problem though, isn't it, that most of the country thinks the country is heading in the wrong direction, the kind of numbers that you would see when an incumbent gets voted, out and she's not literally the incumbent but she's the incumbent vice president.

BRAZILE: Look, the reason why we keep using the word joy and I hope we continue to put that word out there because there is some joy in caring about your country, in loving your country, and wanting to do better for your country, and there's no question that since 2024, American people have been in a sour mood. That's why over the last 10 elections, they've been close and I’m not just talking about presidential, I’m talking about House and Senate. We keep changing horses thinking that that's going to get us to a better happy point.

But look, I think the vice president has an opportunity over the next nine days to really hone in on what troubles the American spirit right now, and yes, that is the fate of our democracy, but more importantly, it's how people feel about their own lives. If you can bring those Americans from the outskirts of hope and give him a path to freedom and dignity and opportunity, she'll win this election.

KARL: Let me ask -- ask you a tough question, Governor? You -- you -- you've said, you said what you said about Donald Trump. I mean, it's -- it's as harsh a critique as anybody, but you haven't gone the next step to say that you would vote for Kamala Harris. I mean if you really think that Trump is what you think he is then how come you're not supporting the person running against him?

CHRISTIE: Because she's got to close the deal with me.

KARL: Could she still close it?

CHRISTIE: Sure.

BRAZILE: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: Sure, she could. I got another nine days, I’m not voting until Election Day. I’m not one of these early voting guys. I’m a dinosaur. I’m going to go walk --

KARL: So you might end up voting for Kamala Harris.

CHRISTIE: I could, but I won't vote for Donald Trump, I could vote for her, but she hasn't closed the deal with me, Jon.

And look, here's the contrast that she needs to draw -- Donald Trump this week called our country a garbage pail.

BRAZILE: Yeah.

CHRISTIE: A garbage pail. He said we have become a garbage pail.

KARL: As he comes into, I’m proud to be an American.

CHRISTIE: If you're -- that's right, if you're an American who doesn't believe that about your country yeah how do you vote for a guy who does? Now what she needs to do is to directly answer the immigration question. Answer it.

You know what? They -- they fumbled it at the beginning. Now, she says that she wants to get tougher, stronger, better on it, she wants more border agents, all the rest of it, and she couldn't answer the question on the wall the other night.

I don't think she wants the wall. I don't think she wants the wall. I don't think she's ever wanted the wall, but here's what you do when you're a leader, a governor, or a president.

If that's what you have to do to get the job done, I'll give them the wall to get the other stuff on that bill that I want.

KARL: All right. Donna, I know you got a thought on that, but we're out of time. We'll pick it up next week. Thank you very much.

(LAUGH)

KARL: Chris Christie, Donna Brazile. Coming up, I traveled to Omaha to speak with a Nebraska candidate who could decide control of the Senate. It's a conversation you won't want to miss.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAN OSBORN, (I) NEBRASKA SENATE CANDIDATE (voice-over): D.C.'s Trojan horse? I don't even own a suit. I've been a registered independent my whole entire life. This is why normal people don't run for office. This is why people hate politics. This makes you want to cut your TV in half.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: But that's independent Senate candidate Dan Osborne of Nebraska responding to a barrage of Republican attack ads. Republicans didn't plan on spending millions of dollars to defend Senator Deb Fischer, but Osborne's insurgent campaign has taken off. So, we went out to Nebraska to talk to the candidate who has surprised just about everybody.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (voice-over): He's the candidate no one saw coming.

OSBORN: I've got a plan to take on corruption in Washington.

KARL (voice-over): A navy veteran, a mechanic, a former union president, and a first-time political candidate. Osborne is known out here for helping lead a 2021 strike at a Kellogg's plant in Omaha. He's an independent who declined an endorsement from the State Democratic Party and upended Republican Senator Deb Fischer's plans for an easy re-election. Part of his rise, a creative ad campaign.

OSBORN: The U.S. Senate is a bunch of millionaires controlled by billionaires. My opponent, Deb Fischer is part of the problem. She's taken so much corporate cash, she should wear patches like NASCAR.

KARL (voice-over): Republicans are now dumping millions into the race, portraying Osborne as a liberal Democrat in disguise.

SEN. DEB FISCHER, (R-NE) (voice-over): Nebraskans won't be fooled by this dangerous Trojan horse.

KARL (voice-over): I met up with him in Omaha for his very first interview on network television.

KARL: This is your first foray into politics. Why are you doing it?

OSBORN: Well, I'm doing it and I'm running as an independent because I'm frustrated. I'm frustrated with the two parties. The fighting, the infighting, the out-fighting, not getting anything done. You know, we've seen a farm bill, September 30th, come and go. It's on extension from 2018. We've seen two border bills get shut down. And people just aren't working together.

And -- but ultimately, I haven't always been a political guy. And it really wasn't until corporate greed came knocking on my door in the form of Kellogg's making record profits during COVID and then trying to take from the workers. And so it really opened my eyes to the fact, you know, the way our world is and the way our government's run.

KARL: I've heard you use a phrase, I think I have this right, that we're in a two-party doom loop. What, what do you mean by that?

OSBORN: Yes. Meaning exactly what I said before. They're just not getting anything done. You know, neither side wants either side to have a win. And I feel like we as people are getting left behind.

KARL: Have you always been an independent?

OSBORN: Yes. I've been registered independent from the time I could vote.

KARL: And you vote ultimately Republican, Democrat? How --

OSBORN: I vote on the person. Who they are, whether or not I believe they have integrity. I always lean towards a veteran if there's one in the race and based off of individual policies.

KARL: The Republicans have attacked you, saying you're really a kind of a hidden Democrat. You're secretly Trojan horse, I think was the phrase.

OSBORN: Yes.

KARL: Deb Fischer used. What do you say to that?

OSBORN: Well, I'd say well, first of all, I've been a registered independent from the time I could vote. I grew up in a very conservative household, the Reagan and Bush years. And for me, it's all, it's just a ploy. Deb Fischer is in trouble. We've been tied in the polls, within the margin of error in the last eight polls that have come out. So that's what they have. That's what they're going to try to use to demonize me. But the fact of the matter is, is everything that I do is issues based. So if you want to know where I stand and who I am, you just got to look at the issues.

KARL: So let's take a couple of those issues. Tariffs, that's a big issue in this campaign at the presidential level. What do you think about tariffs as a way to help American industry raise money, as Trump would say, or raise taxes as, as others would?

OSBORN: Yes, I think I think tariffs can be utilized for good. But you've got to be careful because a lot of times tariffs just comes back on the consumer and they're the ones paying the price. We've seen it with our soybean farmers are struggling because of tariffs on China. But I do believe in targeted tariffs can be successful if you do it right. But you got to think ahead on who it can damage and who's ultimately going to pay for it.

KARL: And what about the border?

OSBORN: Well, without a border, we don't have a country. Plain and simple. We've seen two comprehensive border bills get shot down. My opponent voted against them. Again two-party doom loop. They want to play politics with it. It would have added 1500 more border agents, money and technology to our ports of entry to help try to curb the drug trafficking through -- human trafficking through our ports of entry.

And I think she votes those down because she doesn't want the border closed because she takes money from the meatpackers in this state who benefit from a wide open border with an influx of undocumented workers that they can exploit their labor and pay them next to nothing and continue to enrich themselves.

KARL: So Deb Fischer is using Donald Trump in her latest ad. I mean, he's literally on his plane attacking you.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: His name is Dan Osborn and he's a radical left person. He's a Bernie Sanders-type Democrat. But we want somebody that's going to be strong, powerful and great for our country, and it's not going to be Dan Osborn.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Have you ever met Donald Trump?

OSBORN: No, I have not.

KARL: What did you think? Is it going to be effective? He's obviously popular in Nebraska. So what do Nebraskans think when they hear him saying you're a bad guy, you're a radical left, left to Democrat, he says?

OSBORN: It's the same thing that the Fischer campaign has been saying so it's regurgitated information. You know, he's never met me. I imagine if we met, we might like each other. But it's kind of strange that never meeting somebody, you just take blindly somebody's word.

KARL: And what about on the presidential? Like, are you voting for Kamala Harris or Donald Trump?

OSBORN: You know, at the very beginning of this, we made an announcement that we would not accept the endorsement of any one political figure or any one political party because I'm independent and I don't get --

KARL: That kind of upset the Democrats actually.

OSBORN: It did.

KARL: They didn't like that you did that.

OSBORN: Yes, they're still pretty upset.

KARL: Yes.

OSBORN: But, you know, it is what it is. I'm an independent and some people like it. Some people don't.

KARL: But what about who you're going to vote for? I mean, you got to vote for somebody, right?

OSBORN: Well, I don't give endorsements either. So if I tell you who I'm going to vote for, that's an endorsement.

KARL: Do you care who wins it, this race? The presidential?

OSBORN: Of course, I care. I want -- I want what's best for the country, just like everybody else does.

KARL: But the big issue is you could decide who controls the Senate. I mean, will you still just move your desk in the middle of the aisle or will you see what you --

OSBORN: Yeah, I think -- I think that's -- that's where I need to navigate. I need to navigate down the middle because that's what -- that's what the two party doom loop means. It means we're so far apart and politics is so polarized.

KARL: But even by not deciding again, if you win the Senate seat, you will have decided because if you're in the middle or you're going on one side or the other, again, any one of those three decisions could determine who's in charge.

OSBORN: Sure. Unless -- unless you can bounce back and forth between issues. I don't -- I don't -- I've read this book quite a bit and I've never seen --

KARL: You've got the Constitution. OK --

OSBORN: I've never seen anything in there.

(LAUGH)

OSBORN: And I've never seen anywhere written that says you have to do these things. I want to challenge the system because the system needs to be challenged.

KARL: I've heard you suggest this could be a movement if you win. And I assume you mean a national movement.

OSBORN: Yeah, a national movement. You know, I think what it's going to do, if Nebraska does the right thing and it elects a mechanic to the halls of power. First of all, the rest of the country is going to say, holy crap, did you see what Nebraska did?

(LAUGH)

OSBORN: Yeah, they're going to be talking about it. And it's -- what it's going to do is, it's going to tell people who are nurses, teachers, plumbers, carpenters, bus drivers, truck drivers, other mechanics. I don't want to leave anybody out. But it's going to it's going to tell them that you don't have to be a self-funding crypto billionaire to run for office.

KARL: You say it would take a mechanic to fix Washington. You really think you can fix Washington?

OSBORN: I hold no delusion that I'd be one out of 100 Senators.

KARL: Yeah.

OSBORN: And I -- and I don't expect to charge in there and be a maverick and start pounding my fist on the table. But I'm pretty good at forming alliances with people and -- and convincing people just to do the right thing by -- by, well, for Nebraskans and for the American people. I think this is the start of something special. People are ready for it. And I want to -- I want to be a part of it.

KARL: Our thanks to Dan Osborne. We reached out to Senator Deb Fischer for an interview about the race. She declined our request. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. And be sure to tune in this week to ABC News for the final installment of our "Protecting Your Vote" series. Steve Osunsami reports on the loss of thousands of polling places across the country and who it impacts the most. Have a great day.