'This Week' Transcript 11-26-23: White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, Rep. Ro Khanna and Former Governor Chris Christie
This is a rush transcript of "This Week" airing Sunday, November 26.
A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, November 26, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Hope for hostages. Some captives freed and families reunited as a four-day pause between Israel and Hamas takes hold.
FARHAN HAQ DEPUTY SPOKESMAN FOR THE SECRETARY-GENERAL: This is an important step in the right direction, but much more needs to be done.
KARL: The first break in fighting after seven weeks, providing relief for Gazans, but what comes next in the war?
JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We have end this cycle of violence in the Middle East.
KARL: The latest this morning with White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan and Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna.
Closing in.
CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE & (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR: New Hampshire can change our party. That's why I'm here.
KARL: Now, just 50 days until the first primary votes are cast, Republican candidates take on the frontrunner.
NIKKI HALEY, (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Chaos follows Trump. We can't afford any more chaos.
GOV. RON DESANTIS, (R-FL) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Trump is the best turnout machine for the Democrats.
KARL: We have exclusive new reporting on one well-financed conservative group that says Donald Trump can be beat. A look at the numbers and the Republican electorate.
And we'll talk to presidential candidate Chris Christie and our powerhouse roundtable.
Plus --
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS ANCHOR: Third-string quarterback and you go out and win the game.
JOSHUA DOBBS, MINNESOTA VIKINGS QUARTERBACK: Yes, it’s been – it’s been tremendous.
KARL: From NASA to the NFL. Martha Raddatz goes one-on-one with the Minnesota Vikings rocket scientist quarterback on his meteoric rise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.
KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.
We have exclusive new reporting this week on an influential and well-funded conservative group backed by billionaire Charles Koch that ABC News has learned will soon endorse a Republican alternative to Donald Trump. Based on millions of dollars in research, the group is making the case that Trump can be defeated in the Republican primaries and plans to spend heavily to try to make that happen. We'll have a look at the numbers and the history as we ask whether another Republican can really beat Trump.
But first, we begin with breaking news out of Israel. As we come on the air this morning, we are awaiting news of the release of more hostages taken by Hamas. Overnight, another 13 Israelis were released, eight of them children, one just three years old according to the Israeli prime minister's office. Separately, Hamas has released another four citizens of Thailand. We will have much more on the hostages who have been released and those who haven't, including the Americans still being held, when we talked to President Biden's National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.
But we begin with ABC's Matt Gutman in Tel Aviv with the latest on the hostages.
Good morning, Matt.
MATT GUTMAN, ABC NEWS CHIEF NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Hey, good morning, Jon.
We understand that at least ten additional Israeli hostages, all women and children, plus people from other nationalities, are expected to be released in the coming hours as part of this third batch of hostage releases from Hamas. And multiple sources telling us this morning that Americans are expected to be on that list.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
GUTMAN (voice over): Overnight, after a seven-hour delay, this late-night convoy bearing 17 hostages crossing out of Gaza and into safety. The second round of Hamas-held hostages included 13 Israelis and four Thai nationals, extending a tenuous ceasefire for at least another day.
Among the Israelis, eight minors, including nine-year-old Emily Hand, seen here escorted by gunmen to a Red Cross vehicle. Red Cross personnel welcoming them to freedom.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Welcome.
GUTMAN (voice over): Late night celebration in Israel, including this huge rally in Tel Aviv, demanding the release of all the hostages. In exchange, Israel releasing another 39 Palestinian prisoners from its jails, women and teenage boys, into the West Bank.
There, thousands waited to greet them near Ramallah, welcomed as heroes with fireworks and confetti. The ceasefire affording Gazans the opportunity to survey the apocalyptic destruction in northern Gaza, and to scramble to gather desperately needed food, water, and supplies before the ceasefire ends.
The Hamas-run health ministry in Gaza reporting the death toll nearing 15,000. A majority of them women and children. But Saturday's release nearly fell through, jeopardizing even that short respite. Hamas leadership alleging that Israel violated the ceasefire agreement by opening fire on Gazans trying to return to the north and by allowing too few aid trucks into Gaza. Israel refuting Hamas' claim. The U.N. reporting 133 aid trucks went in instead of 200.
Hours into the standoff, Isarel’s Prime Minister Netanyahu convening his war cabinet with Egyptian, Qatari, and U.S. mediators breaking the impasse. Additional aid sent in, and the Red Cross vehicles finally rolled out through the Rafah border to Egypt and onward to Israel.
The first round of hostages Friday greeted in Israel with jubilation.
GUTMAN: It was just a short time ago that the hundreds of people here received the news that the hostages are with the Red Cross, that they are safe. And this spontaneous singing broke out.
GUTMAN (voice over): There were also tears, and ahead of additional releases, uncertainty.
GUTMAN: What is it like not knowing if she's going to be part of one of these deals? She's 75 years old.
NOAM SAGI, SON OF HOSTAGE AGA SAGI: It's nerve-racking. We don't know what will happen next. Everything is (INAUDIBLE). The trust level is so low.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
GUTMAN (on camera): And, Jon, so far today the ceasefire's holding for that third day. Now, this ceasefire/hostage exchange was designed to last for four days. Israel has said that for each additional ten hostages that Hamas releases, that will buy the organization 24 more hours of ceasefire, but Israel has made very clear in the past couple of days that once the ceasefire ends, it will resume its war against Hamas with the aim of destroying the organization.
Jon.
KARL: Our thanks to Matt Gutman.
We are joined now by White House National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan.
Jake, thank you for joining us.
We are awaiting the release of more hostages today. Will there be Americans among those released?
JAKE SULLIVAN, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY ADVISER: Well, John, as you know, this first set of hostages, 50 hostages over four days, is women and children. And there are three Americans in that category, two women and one child. We have reason to believe one of those Americans will be released today. But until we actually see her safe and sound, out of Gaza, we cannot have 100 percent certainty that it will happen.
So, we are going to watch this hour by hour, and hopefully have a moment, a moment of joy, where one of the Americans is safely out and ultimately reunited with her family. That’s what we are waiting for as we speak.
KARL: The child that has been taken hostage all these weeks by Hamas is Abigail Edan. Of course, she was just three years old when she was taken hostage, turned four just two days ago. What do we know about her condition and her fate?
SULLIVAN: We don’t know about her condition. What we know or have reason to believe is that she is still alive, and we are hopeful that she will be reunited with her family soon. But I don’t want to say more than that right now because, a, I don’t want to give any false hope, and, b, perhaps more importantly, I want to make sure that Hamas actually follows through with what it has committed to today and that we see the release of the 13, including one American. And I will leave it at that for right now because I'm going to save further commentary on this for the moment when we see that incredible moment when an American is free, when Abigail is free. And we hope it happens as soon as possible.
KARL: And I've seen conflicting numbers. What are the total number – what’s the total number of Americans held hostage, the two women, one child, how many total?
SULLIVAN: There are nine U.S. citizens and one U.S. LPR, Green Card holder, for a total of 10 Americans. Three of them with – are women and children, seven of them are men.
KARL: And what – what do we know of the conditions of those that have been released already? Now, obviously, there have been no Americans released yet, but the Israelis that have been released.
SULLIVAN: Obviously, this is an incredibly painful, harrowing, difficult circumstance to be held hostage by a terrorist group, to be grabbed from your home. Oftentimes some of these hostages have – had family members killed. So, the trauma of that is just intense.
Physically, many of them are doing OK. Emotionally and psychologically, this is going to take a long time to recover from. And Israel and other countries have mobilized substantial resources to be able to deal with that trauma as we go forward.
KARL: In fact, Abigail, now four-year-old Abigail, her parents were killed.
SULLIVAN: Yes, her parents were – were slaughtered right in front of her. And what that little girl has had to go through all of this time, it’s just unspeakable. It’s unthinkable. It’s something that neither you or I could even begin to imagine or contemplate.
KARL: Impossible to –
SULLIVAN: And our hope is that she gets out, gets into the hands of her family – or into the loving arms of her family and that they can help the long, slow process of allowing her to heal and to find the love that she so badly deserves.
KARL: Now, this deal includes the release of three Palestinian prisoners for every hostage released. And if you look at the celebrations, we’ll show it now, in the West Bank as the Palestinian prisoners were released, some of the people celebrating were waving Hamas flags and chanting, the people want Hamas.
Are you concerned that this deal has given a huge propaganda victory, a reward for Hamas for what they’ve done?
SULLIVAN: Well, I can’t deny that -- that Hamas gained some benefits from this deal. One of them is the ability to refit and retool inside Gaza. Another is to try to use social media and other formats to generate some propaganda out of it.
And these are difficult decisions that any Israeli prime minister has to make. But this Israeli prime minister made this decision because of the benefit that came with it, which is 50 innocent people coming out of Gaza to be reunited with their families.
And there have been past instances where Hamas has gained some benefit for some time for prisoner exchanges, and then gone right back to the same kind of brutality and lack of care for Palestinian civilians that has exemplified its rule for the last 15 or more years. And so that often fades fairly quickly.
KARL: And the Israeli defense minister has said that at -- when this four-day pause ends, that they’ll go back to the fighting with all intensity. Is that your expectation or do you believe that this pause may be extended for the release of more hostages? There’s still going to be some 150 more hostages held by Hamas.
SULLIVAN: Well, first, Jon, it could be that the pause is extended for another day or two days or three days or even more. The ball is in Hamas’ court on that because what Israel has said is that it is prepared to pause another day of fighting for ever 10 hostages that Hamas releases. So, Hamas could choose on Tuesday, on Wednesday, on Thursday, to continue to release hostages and then the pause would continue. If the pause stops, the responsibility for that rests on the shoulders of Hamas, not on the shoulders of Israel.
And then, ultimately, Israel is going to want to continue to conduct military operations against Hamas, particularly the leadership of Hamas, that were the architects of this brutal, bloody massacre, the worst massacre of the Jewish people since the Holocaust. And Hamas represents a continuing threat to Israel. In fact, Hamas leaders have said on television that they would like to repeat October 7th again and again and again.
So, Israel does have the right to defend itself. It will take action to suppress and ultimately eliminate the threat that Hamas poses to the state of Israel. And that is what any country would do to defend its territory and its people.
KARL: All right, National Security Adviser Jake Sullivan, thank you for joining us.
SULLIVAN: Thanks for having me.
KARL: And we're joined now by California Democratic Congressman Ro Khanna, a member of the Armed Services Committee.
Congressman Khanna, let's just take a moment to think about the fate of that one American hostage, 4-year-old Abigail Edan, just turned four on Friday. Her parents slaughtered right in front of her. You spoke to her aunt recently.
What's your expectations on what's going to happen with her?
REP. RO KHANNA (D-CA): Well, it's heartbreaking. Her aunt was in my office, and she was not focused on the brutal murder of her family. She was focused on Abigail, getting her out.
Such resilience. Some of the people in my office were in tears. She was not -- she was just focused on the hostages getting out as were other family members. That has to be our highest priority.
KARL: And have you heard anything beyond what we just heard from the national security adviser about her fate or the fate of other Americans?
KHANNA: I’ve not. I’m hopeful, but I trust Jake Sullivan. He’s careful, and I appreciate what he and the president have done to help facilitate the hostage release.
KARL: Now, we had this pause, we’re now halfway through, a four-day pause, it may be extended if there's a release of more. You had opposed the idea of a permanent ceasefire. Do you still oppose the idea of a permanent ceasefire?
KHANNA: Well, I think we need a ceasefire now. And I came out for that a couple of days ago, and I’ll tell you why.
A couple of reasons. First, we need more of the hostages to be released, and we see now that it's working.
Second, there are still Americans in Gaza. We need those Americans and American families to be released.
The third point is this -- Israel has diminished Hamas' military capability. They now have troops to prevent another October 7th attack.
But I just talked to the Saudi ambassador. I talked to the UAE ambassador. Here’s a reality on the ground -- there are 40,000 Hamas fighters. 40,000. Israel has killed 2,000. It is unrealistic that they're going to be able to kill 40,000 other Hamas fighters, let alone undermine the political and cultural influence of Hamas.
So, we need a real solution. And that needs to be a Palestinian state with an Israel state.
KARL: So, let me ask you what I asked Jake. You see the celebrations in the West Bank with people waving Hamas flags, Hamas flags, chanting slogans for Hamas. Is Hamas really diminished? I mean the – I mean Israel wants to eliminate Hamas. It sounds like a fraction of their fighters killed, but what about – what about their political support?
KHANNA: Their military capability has been diminished with the bombing in northern Gaza, but their political support, it sometimes actually increases every time you have images of children and women killed. That's why there has to be a diplomatic solution until there is an independent Palestinian state.
There is not going to be peace or security in that region, and America needs to show leadership. I believe our Gulf allies will help us if we bring the diverse Palestinian voices to the table. There needs to be one condition. Any Palestinian voice at that table needs to recognize the state of Israel, and then we need to work towards an independent Palestinian state.
KARL: But you agree, Hamas is a terrorist organization?
KHANNA: Yes, Hamas is absolutely a terrorist organization.
KARL: So, you're not suggesting they deserve or should have a seat at that negotiating table?
KHANNA: They should not. They should not. But there need to be Palestinian voices that recognize the state of Israel. And the question is this, what happens to actually end the threat. What is Israel’s plan? Are they going to try to kill 40,000 fighters? You know, we – there 14 – 13 -- 12,000 Palestinians who have died on 2,000 fighters.
If you do the math of 40,000 fighters, are you going to have hundreds of thousands of Palestinians killed? That's not a realistic solution. We need to listen to our regional allies, figure out how we diminish Hamas' military capabilities so October 7th never happens again, and then work towards a two-state solution, a real solution, not lip service where we actually have a Palestinian state.
KARL: You've called on the Israelis to do more, and now you're calling to protect Palestinian civilians, civilians in Gaza. Now you’re calling for a permanent ceasefire or is it not –
KHANNA: A lasting ceasefire.
KARL: A lasting ceasefire.
KHANNA: Yes, but -- which the president, by the way, has said that he hopes for. I mean he’s –
KARL: So – so, Bernie Sanders just – just penned a guest essay in "The New York Times" saying that there should be strings attached to aid for Israel. And he says, “The blank check approach must end. The United States must make clear that while we are friends of Israel, there are conditions of that friendship, and we cannot be complicit in actions that violate international law and our own sense of decency.”
Do you agree with Senator Sanders that there should be strings attached to our aid to Israel?
KHANNA: What I believe is that we have to enforce the Leahy Law, that is the U.S. policy, that any aid to the United States needs to be consistent with human rights law. I support the aid for the Iron Dome and defensive equipment for Israel, for equipment Israel may need to deter Iran, but we need to make sure, and our State Department needs to make sure, that any of our aid isn't used in a way that violates human rights. That's not just for Israel, that’s around the world.
KARL: So, that's unconditional aid for Israel’s self-defense, for self-defense?
KHANNA: Self-defense and any aid needs to be consistent with the Leahy Law that the State Department needs to enforce, which is that nothing should violate international human rights law. That is the current law. It's for the State Department to enforce it.
KARL: All right, Congressman Ro Khanna, thank you for coming and talking to us today.
KHANNA: Thank you. Appreciate it.
KARLL: Coming up, can Donald Trump be defeated in the Republican primary? We have exclusive new reporting on the conservative group planning to spend tens of millions of dollars to try to make that happen. And Chris Christie joins us live.
We are back in just two minutes.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
DONALD J. TRUMP, (R) FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I call them the J6 hostages, not prisoners. I call them the hostages.
I'm a very proud election denier because, unless the truth is found, we will never have fair, free and honest elections.
We will root out the Communists, Marxists, fascists and the radical left thugs that live like vermin within the confines of our country.
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: Donald Trump has skipped the debates. He has done far fewer political events than his rivals. But his incendiary and dangerous rhetoric has shown the kind of general election campaign he will run and the values he would bring back to the White House. Trump has vowed to use the Justice Department to go after his enemies. He has suggested that former Joint Chiefs chairman Mark Milley should face the death penalty, and he has said federal prosecutor Jack Smith will end up in a, quote, "mental institution" by the end of his presidency.
And at 2:03 a.m. on Thanksgiving, he issued a long screed on social media calling a New York judge a "psycho" and personally attacking a court employee by name who had already received hundreds of threats, many of them Antisemitic, in the wake of previous Trump statements.
At this moment, though, Donald Trump leads in the polls and is the overwhelming favorite to win the nomination. But there are some signs that could change. ABC News has learned that Americans For Prosperity, a group backed by billionaire conservative activist Charles Koch, plans to endorse one of Trump's rivals in the coming weeks and is prepared to spend heavily to try to bring Trump down.
Our political director Rick Klein is here to break down the state of the race.
RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yeah, Jon. We are now just 50 days away from the Iowa Caucuses, and the New Hampshire primary just eight days after that. And as you mentioned, Donald Trump is far and away the front-runner right now. But we have reviewed, at ABC News, some of Americans for Prosperity's internal research, their polling, their door-knocking data.
And their view of the race is that most people don't think it's even begun. In fact, about 40 percent of Republicans in Iowa and New Hampshire say the race hasn't even started yet. And their research suggests that as many as 75 percent of Republicans might be open, just might be open to a Trump alternative if they think that that person can win.
And in their view, they say there's a lot of money that can be spent on a ground game, on organization. The last time that they -- that they had any kind of public report on this, Jon, they had $70 million in the bank to put toward an effort to try to defeat Donald Trump.
And in part what they're looking at it the public polling on this, because we are seeing a much different primary play out nationally than in some of the early voting states. In the national polling average at 538, Donald Trump has been leading wire to wire and big. Right now, he's up 45 points plus on his closest rivals. That is not a close race.
It isn't -- it isn't the same, though, as in the early states. In Iowa and New Hampshire, we're talking about 27, 28-point leads. Critically, Donald Trump's winning by a lot, but he's under 50 percent in both of those early voting states. And that gives Trump's rivals a lot of hope that, maybe even expectation, that once people start to engage, there's a chance of changing those numbers and maybe someone breaks through in one of those states.
KARL: All right, Rick, but he still has a big lead in Iowa and New Hampshire, just not as big as he does nationally. But as we know, Iowa and New Hampshire love to deliver surprises.
KLEIN: Yeah, and some history here is really instructive, Jon. Because, back in 2012, the last time that Republicans had an open primary race to go up against an incumbent president, at this point in the election cycle, this is what we saw, Newt Gingrich leading the field. Rick Santorum, who went on to win the Iowa Caucuses, was way down at 4 percent. He leapfrogs everybody just in those last 50 days.
Similarly, in 2016, Ted Cruz, the eventual winner, had to overcome both Ben Carson and Donald Trump. In 12 percent at this point in the polling, he ends up being the surprise winner.
Now, in New Hampshire, we all remember what happened with John McCain and his late surges. At this point in the cycle in New Hampshire, according to our polling, the race was basically tied, in New Hampshire, between George W. Bush and John McCain. Of course, McCain ended up winning big in -- in that upset.
And in 2008, maybe even more interesting example because McCain won the primary that year by winning New Hampshire, but at this point in the cycle, he was in third place. Again, he had to have that late surge, that late upset.
So, look, Jon, there's never been a candidate who's had this big a lead nationally or in early states who didn't go on to win the nomination. But there are lots of signs and now lots of money to suggest that this race could still be interesting.
KARL: All right. Thank you, Rick.
Let's go right to 2024 presidential candidate and former New Jersey Governor Chris Christie.
So, Governor Christie, you have spent a lot of time in New Hampshire lately. Let me ask you based on what you are hearing from voters, when Trump goes out and says incendiary things like calling January 6th prisoners hostages, suggesting that the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff should face the death penalty, do voters notice? Does it make -- does it make a difference?
CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I think it does make a difference, Jon, and I can tell you from the turnout we have been having at our town hall meetings just in the last two weeks, we see people really starting to engage. You've seen our numbers go up over the last two weeks in the polls in New Hampshire.
And last week, right before Thanksgiving, we had a joint town hall in Nashua with Governor Sununu. And it was a standing-room-only crowd, completely packed the room. I had people standing three rows deep in the back.
I do think that those polling numbers are correct in this way -- I think people are just starting to engage even in a place like New Hampshire. You know, I really see people now finally starting to dig in, figure out who they think is saying the things that they want to hear, and telling the truth to the voters of New Hampshire. I think that's going to make a huge difference.
And so, look, you look at those numbers. John McCain was in third place at this point in 2007 going into the '08 primary. That's exactly where I am, and we think we're going to have a very similar result.
KARL: Yeah, and we've seen DeSantis and Nikki Haley increasingly go after each other. I mean, they are taking Trump on a bit now, but spend a lot of time going after each other. You're starting to take both of them on as well.
Isn't this exactly how Trump wins, is having that opposition to him, the anti-Trump vote aimed at each other instead of taking him on?
CHRISTIE: Jon, look, I’ve spent the majority of my time going after the guy who's in first place. I’m going after Donald Trump.
And all I point out about Ron DeSantis and Nikki Haley is they're not going to after Trump, and I don't understand why they're spending time going after each other and not going after Trump.
If all three of us would go after Donald Trump, well, then the most credible amongst the three of us in terms of those critiques would wind up winning -- winning this primary, I believe. And so, we need to all be talking about the guy who's in first place.
You know, I don't understand. I’m not playing for second place here, Jon. I’m playing to win, and that's why my campaign from the beginning has been that way.
And look, Governor Haley has said things like she thought he was the right president at the right time. She's also said that she’d be inclined to pardon him. Ron DeSantis has had, you know, a lot of glowing things to say about Donald Trump over time.
I think we need to focus on who's in front here, who's bad for our party, and who would be bad for this country. And in my view, that's Donald Trump and we need to go directly at him and that's why you're seeing people in increasing numbers come to our town hall meetings in New Hampshire, go to Chrischristie.com and donating. They're doing the things that we see.
And the week after the last debate, Jon, we had our best fund-raising week of the entire year. So things are really starting to pick up for us, and I think people are starting to focus, and that's why.
KARL: OK. So let me ask you. Look, you pull off an upset victory or if Nikki Haley pulls off an upset victory, if Trump loses, does he concede? Does he concede and graciously offer help to --
(CROSSTALK)
CHRISTIE: I don't care.
KARL: You don't care?
CHRISTIE: I don't care, Jon. No.
Look, no one will expect him to concede. He hasn't conceded the 2020 election. Who cares?
The secretary of state of New Hampshire will certify the votes. You’ll get the delegates per the RNC rules, and we'll move on to the next race. I don’t suspect he’ll ever concede, he's ever lost any election --
KARL: So --
CHRISTIE: -- even though he lost primaries in 2016 to Ted Cruz, and he'll lose primaries this time as well.
But it doesn't matter, Jon. In the end, the rules will govern here just as the rules governed in 2020, and he moved out of the White House and Joe Biden is sleeping in the White House tonight.
I don't want that to continue after January 20th of 2025. That's why I intend to beat Donald Trump and beat Joe Biden.
KARL: But isn't this a problem for whoever the ultimate nominee if it's not Trump -- to have him on the outside carping, saying it was stolen, maybe running as a third party, you know, dividing the Republican vote? I mean, how do you deal with that?
I know it's a problem you’d like to have, but I mean, isn't this a fundamental problem for Republicans going forward as long as Donald Trump is on the political scene?
CHRISTIE: I think the public en mass will begin to ignore a four-time loser like Donald Trump, if he loses this set of primaries. You know, he lost in 2018 in the House, he lost in 2020, in the Senate and in the White House. And in 2022, he led us to more losses in the governorships and in the Senate, and if he loses in 2024 will be a four-time loser. I think he'll go back to Mar-a-Lago. He'll continue to carp and moan and complain and say we don't deserve him. Anything that gets him out of this race, and, and what keeps him out of the White House is fine by me.
KARL: OK, so we're almost out of time. But it looks from your campaign schedule like sometimes you're running for president of New Hampshire. So, what is the plan? If you pull off this upset in New Hampshire, what do you do post -- post New Hampshire?
CHRISTIE: Our next two focuses Jon will be South Carolina and Michigan. And we believe in both of those states, we can do quite well. We've already been on the ground in South Carolina a number of times in this campaign, and we're getting ready to start going to Michigan.
But right now, it -- and 58 days to go until the New Hampshire primary. We are going to focus most of our time and energy on the state of New Hampshire because we believe that New Hampshire has a long history of determining who the nominee of the party will be. We intend to be the guy who surprises everybody in that race on January 23.
KARL: All right, Gov. Chris Christie, thank you for joining us.And coming up our Powerhouse Roundtable, we'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: The Roundtable is here. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Do you believe someone in this field can beat Donald Trump?
GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU, (R) NEW HAMPSHIRE: Undoubtedly. Oh, no, absolutely. Look, when you have over 50 percent of the Republican base saying, yes, we’d consider going not with Trump, a third of his own voters said – are considering, yes, would – would consider moving away from Trump.
The former president eats up a lot of that – that earned media, if you will. But if you earned it with drama, it’s earned as – as Nikki was saying, if you have chaos. I think we all want to put chaos behind us.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: That was New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu talking to ABC’s Rachel Scott.
Let's bring in the powerhouse roundtable.
Former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, former Trump Justice Department spokesperson, Sara Isgur, “New Yorker” staff writer Susan Glasser, and ABC political director Rick Klein.
So, Rick, you presented the data earlier in the show that, you know, the Koch brothers -- well, the remaining Koch brother making the case that Trump can be defeated.
RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes.
KARL: Do you buy it?
KLEIN: Well, no one's voted yet for starters, and there's definitely evidence to suggest that people would consider an alternative. But it's not like others haven't been trying to make this case. I mean that's been the focus of sustained advertising, not just from AFP, but also from the other candidates to make the case that, look. Trump is flawed, is damaged. It would be a bad move for the Republican Party. It hasn't worked yet.
I think the most enlightening piece of the – of the AFP data, and I think Governor Sununu is – is citing statistics similar statistics or a similar sense that people haven't really begun to focus yet. And the only strategy that’s left, if you re are AFP or if you are Haley or DeSantis or Christie is that – that once voters get serious about it, they are going to make a different decision. And they might be right. We just – we just don’t know. But this is an overwhelming, overpowering lead that Trump has, and no one has ever been able to overcome anything like that.
KARL: Well, it's worth remembering, Susan, that a year ago Trump was actually trailing DeSantis in – in most polls and some – and consistent – and with -- by a considerable margin. So, there has been some fluidity, there just hasn’t been fluidity for a while.
SUSAN GLASSER, THE NEW YORKER STAFF WRITER: Well, that's right. I mean when people look back on 2023, one of the big political stories is going to be Donald Trump's rise in the polls, and his consolidation apparently of Republican voters who, after indictment and indictment and indictment rolled back into him.
But, you know, I'm having a little bit of 2016 flashback. I would point out that the Kochs opposed Donald Trump in 2016 and spent millions and millions of dollars, and it didn't work.
And, you know, there is the sort of "hope springs eternal" moment that we're looking at here. No candidate, as Rick just pointed out, has ever overcome -- has ever been defeated with a lead like that. So, you know, color me a little bit skeptical.
KARL: You were working for candidate -- for a candidate during that 2016 primary.
(LAUGHTER)
SARAH ISGUR, FORMER TRUMP JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON & 'THE DISPATCH' SENIOR EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Yeah, I don't think we won.
(LAUGHTER)
Look, we've actually reached a point of diminishing returns when it comes to money in politics. So part of why I'm very skeptical is this idea that $10 million, 20 million is suddenly going to turn the tide in any of these races. It's not about money.
People know who Donald Trump is. What the money helps you with is getting information to voters. They are well-informed on Donald Trump, God knows. The issue is that they're very satisfied with Donald Trump. He may not be their first choice. They may be open to voting for someone else. I don't doubt the truth of that. But they're satisfied with Donald Trump, as opposed, by the way, to the Democratic side. More Democrats are unsatisfied with their choice of Joe Biden than Republicans are with Donald Trump.
So we spend all this time focusing on Trump. Trump is a stronger candidate in his primary than Donald Trump (sic) is, based on those numbers.
KARL: Well, Trump actually has opposition.
(LAUGHTER)
KARL: That's part of it, sure. I mean, he does, right? I mean...
GLASSER: Although his opponents have raised their hand and said, with the exception of Chris Christie, who you just had on, and said that they would accept Donald Trump as the nominee of their party and support him again, including Nikki Haley, who said that.
DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: And that's the problem. Many of these Republicans are running to be Trump Light. They want to be a typical candidate like Donald Trump. Look at Mr. DeSantis. In tone and policy, he's like Donald Trump.
I mean, even former Governor Haley, who has been rising in the poll because of her debate performances, she has also tried to shy away from attacking Donald Trump because, at the end of the day, if those Trump voters start to peel off, they want to capture them.
So this is, again, a race for number two. Number one is Donald Trump.
KARL: I mean, that's what I was trying...
BRAZILE: Let's just be honest. He probably likes the fact that I called him number one.
(LAUGHTER)
KARL: But that's what I was trying to get at with Christie. I mean, the Republicans have been constantly trying to deal with this problem, including Republicans who are praying that Donald Trump will just disappear, is that they need Trump's voters.
BRAZILE: I wouldn't -- let me just say this. I don't want him to disappear. I want -- I would like Joe Biden, again, to defeat him. Because that's the only way to defeat and deflate a movement based on revenge and retribution. So, no, let Donald Trump continue to stay in the race. Let him continue to dominate this race. But at the end of the day, we need a strong Joe Biden to defeat Donald Trump in 2024 again.
KLEIN: And to Sarah's point, you're not going to convince Republican voters to just dump Trump or hate -- start hating Trump. What you might, just might convince them is he's not the best guy to beat Joe Biden. And that's the sense that I think that you're going to see the messaging tap into, whether it's from AFP or from the other candidates.
It could be, "Look, we like a lot of the things that Trump did, but at the -- at the end of this election cycle, are you going to allow Joe Biden to get elected again?"
And there's a lot of evidence that suggests that Nikki Haley, Ron DeSantis, Chris Christie would be a stronger matchup, because at least you'd get a fresh start going into a race against Joe Biden.
KARL: All right. Let me show you some headlines we saw this week about Nikki Haley. And you can see it's almost like there was one assignment editor at all the...
(LAUGHTER)
KARL: ... major newspapers, you know, "Nikki Haley consolidating the 'Never Trump' vote." "Could Haley Really Beat Trump? Donors Are Daring to Dream." "Wall Street Eyes Nikki Haley as Trump Spoiler."
So is -- is this Nikki Haley's moment?
(LAUGHTER)
GLASSER: You know, all these guys, they thought Ron DeSantis might be the one. And Fox News and some of the big donors, they rally around the Florida governor. Remember, just a year ago, coming off of his big re-election victory in Florida, he was touted as, you know, "the Trump killer." And he wasn't. And he wasn't. And he turned out to be a paper tiger. He turned out to be a very unappealing candidate. He -- he made a decision to go to the hard right of Trump's -- he's Trump Light, as Donna said, except without the personality.
And so Nikki Haley, the numbers don't -- to me -- I mean, Rick is the numbers guy here, but, you know, to me the numbers don't suggest that she is running for number one so much as number two, at this time.
BRAZILE: Well, let me just speak on behalf of a campaign that I don't work for.
(LAUGHTER)
BRAZILE: I think she's done a fantastic job in capitalizing on all of her three debate performances. And she's connecting with voters in Iowa. You know, I follow all of the different stories of these candidates as they're going to these states. And she may be a late riser. She's, what, tied for second place with Mr. DeSantis in Iowa. She is, what, number two or number three in...
KARL: Depending on the poll, in New Hampshire.
BRAZILE: Right. We're going to not talk about Nevada today, because that's complicated, but South Carolina. I mean, there's a reason why Trump went to that (inaudible) State Game last night.
KARL: Right.
BRAZILE: Because he knows he needs to win in South Carolina and defeat her, because if she comes out of South Carolina as a close second, she's going to rise.
ISGUR: The argument is that Donald Trump, like Rick said, was that he can't beat Joe Biden. That was a much easier case to make a year ago than it was today. And so, he can only serve one term. He might lose to Joe Biden. You've got polls that are showing him up outside the margin of error against Joe Biden, and Joe Biden's main problem, his mental state, his age, whatever you want to call it, that's not turning around. It's not like the economy where you can suddenly have the Fed switch off (ph) the interest rates.
KARL: Well, speaking of mental state, I assume you guys all saw the Thanksgiving message that Donald Trump put out. So, he put out a post on Truth Social at 2:03 a.m. on Thanksgiving that was this long screed against all the people that he hates…
(LAUGH)
KARL: …but he went specifically at the judge in the New York civil case and the clerk -- the clerk who has faced a barrage of threats on her personal phone, threats, anti-Semitic threats. I mean, what do you make of that?
GLASSER: Donald Trump is seeking perhaps to taunt these judges to, you know, not only have a gag order, but to seek some enforcement against himself. If his campaign is build on revenge and retribution, he wants to be ever more the victim -- ever more the victim, but the problem, right now, is that voters seem to have stopped processing just how out of control Donald Trump is.
It's not just that he's prone to misstatements and gaffes that he taunts Joe Biden for, but to call him unhinged suggests that he was hinged, but…
(LAUGH)
GLASSER: You know, this is really -- it's a really remarkable moment where he is rising in the polls to Sarah's point, and yet, here we are.
KARL: And this is as there are court proceedings on a gag order.
ISGUR: I was just going to say that the Federal one is pending in the D.C. Circuit. We just heard arguments in that recently. There is huge problems with that gag order. The last time we saw a similar gag order against a political candidate back in the '80s against Harold Ford, Sr., that was significantly struck down. Supreme Court has never ruled on a gag order before. They have never even said it's constitutional.
And so, in the meantime, you have Donald Trump clearly wanting to test the limits of that. The First Amendment, a political candidate, the core of our free speech rights versus a criminal proceeding in D.C., of course, the New York one is a civil proceeding. I think you are exactly right. If you want to win over the judge, at the point that you haven't won over the judge, you want to annoy the judge enough to make reversible error, so that you can go up on appeal and in the political case, all the better. Have them enforce that gag order if the Trump Campaign. It will only make him bigger news.
BRAZILE: He's a reality TV star and he loves the media, he loves talking. He loves tweeting. I mean, you know he was not up at two o'clock about to get ready for turkey day, OK?
(LAUGH)
KARL: (Inaudible).
BRAZILE: No, he wasn't getting his greens or his…
(LAUGH)
KARL: Making the stuffing.
BRAZILE: …his stuffing together, or the cranberry sauce. Donald Trump enjoys the line of attack because he knows it gets attention. But let me just say this. He's threatening human beings. He's threatening the judge. He's threatening the clerk.
KARL: (Inaudible) this is a clerk, this is not a public figure.
BRAZILE: He is threatening workers, and that's why we should somehow or the other limit his ability. I'm not saying take away his free speech rights. I mean, the guy couldn't exist without his mouth. I probably have the same problem. But, the fact is that every time he does that, we know what he's doing. We know exactly what he's trying to do.
ISGUR: We can't base someone's free speech rights on how other people react to it. The fact he has a bigger bullhorn and that creates threats, that's a real problem when we say that because threats come in from other people, we limit your free speech rights. We can't do that either.
BRAZILE: Thank you, lawyer.
KLEIN: And the reason -- there is Trump the defendant and Trump the candidate….
(LAUGH)
KARL: Yeah.
KLEIN: And he plays the game to kind of blur the two. I think the increasing focus -- and I think as you covered earlier in the show, of what Trump the candidate is saying now or is promising now about what he would do in an additional term is something that's going to get more scrutiny, and I'm curious to see how that plays into the remaining part of this primary contest. We have got another debate in a few weeks. The vote starts in 50 days. And do people start to make something out of that? Not just that he is saying outrageous things or he has done outrageous things in the past. This is what he is saying right now…
KARL: Right.
KLEIN: …that he would do in another term as president.
KARL: Yeah, in the news (ph), it is different than the 2016 campaign which was all over the place. It is a campaign that is based on retribution.
GLASSER: I think that's the most important point. Donald Trump in 2016 had a certain outward-facing agenda. He was talking about the wall and his, you know, programs such as it was. In 2024, he has really identified himself with this cause. When he says, "I am your retribution," what he means is he is seeking retribution and revenge, and the agenda he has outlined is one that's got no precedent in American history.
BRAZILE: Scary.
KARL: All right. Thank you to the round table.
Coming up, from NASA to the NFL, Martha Raddatz has the remarkable story of Minnesota Vikings quarterback Joshua Dobbs when we come back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: Thanksgiving is about family, food, and for many of us, football. So, this Thanksgiving Day weekend, co-anchor Martha Raddatz, a big Minnesota Vikings fan sat down with the team's quarterback, the pastor not (ph) as he is known, a gifted athlete and scholar with an aerospace engineering degree and a perfect 4.0. He's a bit different than those Martha usually talks to on this program. But the best interviews are those with people who inspire and persevere, and Joshua Dobbs does both.
(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)
JOSHUA DOBBS, MINNESOTA VIKINGS QUARTERBACK: What's up you all? Josh Dobbs honored to be in Minnesota to introduce myself to everyone.
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR (voice-over): Joshua Dobbs' debut as a Minnesota Vikings quarterback was anything but ordinary.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Touchdown Vikings.
RADDATZ (voice-over): Dobbs, an emergency trade, taking the field after the first two quarterbacks were injured before he even knew the names of his fellow players, the Vikings playbook or even where he should suit up.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: These moments ago they have to direct him. He doesn't even know what they're (INAUDIBLE).
RADDATZ (voice-over): And yet in dazzling fashion, Dobbs took the Vikings to victory.
(CROSSTALK)
RADDATZ (voice-over): Known on the field for his rocket arm, off the field, a rocket scientist.
DOBBS: I quickly learned I love sports, but I also loved aviation. I love math and science. And so that's kind of where the beginning of the aerospace background began when I was younger. You know, I got to school. I said I want to do something I'm good at and something that I like and interested in. And so, when I was trying to figure out what to study, aerospace engineering really knocked out both buckets.
RADDATZ (voice-over): Dobbs, who never missed a day of school and was the last to leave the college library, credits his parents, Stephanie and Robert, for nurturing his passions, although they keep their own well under wraps. After images of his parents during his football games went viral, Dobbs reposted this Instagram with the caption, "Josh Dobbs' parents still wish he worked for NASA."
RADDATZ: I love watching your parents when they're watching you, which they either have just excellent poker faces --
(LAUGH)
DOBBS: They are very stoic on camera. I need a little more energy out of them. I can't lie.
(LAUGH)
RADDATZ: OK. What would you like? A little smile?
DOBBS: A little smile, you know, maybe, like, hand up, a cheer, a high five, something. So, we're working, we're practicing. We're working on it.
(LAUGH)
RADDATZ (voice-over): And what Dobbs is working on when not playing football is introducing kids to science, technology, engineering, and math through his foundation, the ASTROrdinary Dobbs Foundation.
DOBBS: I'm able to show kids that are extremely interested in sports that you can also have other passions off the field, off the court, outside -- outside of, you know, your hobbies and sport. You can have other passions in your studies, and STEM is a tremendous field.
RADDATZ (voice-over): And though he's focused fully on this football season for now, he is also making plans for what comes next.
DOBBS: My future dream is to have my pilot's license. And then from there, you know, get into the engineering world. I think there's some tremendous opportunities, obviously, in space.
RADDATZ: And when you talk about getting a pilot's license and an engineer in space, would you like to be an astronaut?
DOBBS: I'm still trying to figure out if being an astronaut, going to space, is in my cards, but I think it'll be pretty cool.
RADDATZ: I love your Instagram page that says, "Don't tell me the sky's the limit."
DOBBS: When there's footprints on the moon. Yes.
(LAUGH)
(END VIDEOTAPE)
KARL: Thanks to Martha. Josh Dobbs and Martha's Vikings take on the Chicago Bears right here on ABC tomorrow for Monday Night Football. We'll be right back.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
KARL: Before we go, a programming note. ABC News will have coverage throughout the week including on our streaming channel "ABC News Live" of memorial services for Former First Lady Rosalynn Carter, who died last Sunday at the age of 96.
That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight." Have a great day.
(COMMERCIAL BREAK)
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