'This Week' Transcript 4-14-24: White House National Security Spokesman John Kirby, Gov. Chris Sununu & Sen. Tina Smith

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, April 14, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK with George Stephanopoulos starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, ABC "THIS WEEK" ANCHOR: Breaking overnight, Iran and its proxies attack, launching hundreds of drones and missiles towards Israel from its own territory for the first time. All the latest from Britt Clennett and Martha Raddatz.

Plus, White House National Security Spokesman John Kirby and global affairs expert Fareed Zakaria.

Historic trial.

ALVIN BRAGG: These are felony crimes in New York state, no matter who you are.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Jury selection begins Monday in Donald Trump's Manhattan election interference case, the first criminal trial of a former American president.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The whole thing is a disgrace, and it's a disgrace to our nation.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Aaron Katersky previews the weeks of courtroom drama ahead, and Republican Governor Chris Sununu responds.

Plus, abortion upheaval.

ARIZONA GOV. KATIE HOBBS: It's a near total ban. No exceptions for rape or incest.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The Arizona Supreme Court upholds a Civil War-era abortion ban.

ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL KRIS MAYES: Women could die as a result of this decision.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Democrats seize the issue, blame Donald Trump.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Donald Trump is the architect of this health care crisis.

STEPHANOPOULOS: This morning, Rachel Scott reports on the political fallout. Plus, reaction from Democratic Senator Tina Smith and our powerhouse roundtable.

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, George Stephanopoulos.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK. As we come on the air this morning, the U.S. has condemned Iran's air attack on Israel, the first ever direct attack from Iran on Israel. Retaliation for Israel’s recent attack on the Iranian consulate in Syria which killed several top Iranian officials. It had been telegraphed for days, Israel and its allies, including the U.S. were ready. Most of the incoming fire, hundreds of drones, cruise and ballistic missiles was intercepted.

And there are signs this morning from both Iran and Israel that this round of fighting is over, and a wider war may have been prevented, for now. But the region remains a tinderbox.

Britt Clennett starts us off from Jerusalem.

Good morning, Britt.

BRITT CLENNETT, ABC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, George.

Yes, overnight, Iran launched a massive air strike on Israel, including 170 drones, 30 cruise missiles, and over 120 ballistic missiles. That's according to the IDF. In the early hours of the morning here, George, the sky over Jerusalem, it was lit up by rockets and drones. We heard the roar of fighter jets overhead. People here urged to take shelter as air raid sirens blared across the country.

The IDF saying Israel's Iron Dome system and air force intercepted some 99 percent of the projectiles, deeming it a significant, strategic success. And Israel says some of the missiles did hit Israel, causing minor damage to an air base, but no casualties reported so far. One girl is in critical condition. It's not clear whether she was injured by falling debris.

The IDF saying that as well as from Iraq, the launches also coming from Iraq and Syria. Israel's allies, France, the U.K. and the U.S., all helping to thwart this assault. Iran says that – this is their response to an Israeli strike on their diplomatic building in Syria earlier this month that killed top commanders. But this -- this is the first time Iran has directly targeted from Iranian soil. Until now it has used its array of regional proxies to engage Israel, George.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And, Britt, there does seem to be signs from both Iran and Israel this morning that they're trying to contain this matter.

CLENNETT: Yes, so this morning the top general of the Iranian forces told an Iranian news agency that the military response was over, and that they have no intention of continuing the operation against Israel. But Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, with a message on social media today, saying, we intercepted, we blocked. Together, we will win.

Meanwhile, Netanyahu is convening his war cabinet later today to discuss the next move that Israel will take. And really, George, the world waiting to see the impact of this unprecedented strike.

George.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I'm not sure – I'm not sure this is the right word, Britt, but how normal does it feel there this morning?

CLENNETT: You know, it's still tense. It was a long evening. When I spoke to people before this strike, they seemed kind of unfazed because they said Israel is used to this. But certainly people are on edge now. And – and there’s this fear that there could be a back and forth from Iran to Israel and that it could escalate out of control.

STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Britt Clennett, thanks.

Let's bring in our chief global affairs anchor Martha Raddatz.

Martha, thanks for joining us this morning.

Let's pick up on what Iran is saying last night. Is – the U.S. was involved in those defensive operations last night and we're getting a warning from Iran against further U.S. involvement?

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS CHIEF GLOBAL AFFAIRS ANCHOR: Exactly, George. They say the operation is concluded, but Iran's mission to the U.N. said, however, should the Israeli regime make another mistake, Iran's response will be considerably more severe. It is a conflict between Iran and the rogue Israeli regime, from which the U.S. must stay away.” In capital letters there you see.

Of course. Iran had also warned the U.S. not to be involved in the defense of Israel. President Biden basically said, we will protect Israel. And that was an extraordinary show of defensive capability last night. That was a massive attack. It is so lucky and skilled that they were able to shoot down those drones, those missiles. More than 300.

The U.S., early last night, thought there might be 400 or 500 missiles and drones headed for Israel. So, this is not over, as you say, George. And I do think you will likely see some sort of response from Israel. Because no one was injured, because there was no infrastructure damage, I believe it will probably just aim at military facilities in Iran. But Netanyahu will be under a lot of pressure domestically to retaliate for that strike aimed at Israel.

It's the first time that has happened. You know, we all watched Britt Clennett last night. That was a very scary situation, watching those missiles and drones over Jerusalem headed for a military facility, but over Jerusalem. And this is a country that has also been undergoing trauma since October 7th, of course.

So, I think you're going to see a population that is worried about this. No one wants escalation. But I think Israel will likely respond.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes, no question, it's incredibly scary, but it also seems pretty carefully choreographed, at least so far, on all sides.

RADDATZ: I think it is carefully choreographed. But again, it was a matter of if they had hit something, that choreography would go away. I think there would have been a much, much stronger response. Everyone is happy this morning that the escalation is not greater than it was, but there still could be that retaliatory strike.

Again, choreographed. Iran certainly knew that a lot of its armament, a lot of those weapons would be intercepted by the U.S. and the U.K., and France and everybody else who was – who was involved in that, and Israel, they probably planned for that, and they, again, had targeted, and they made clear that they targeted only military facilities. I don't think Iran wants a great escalation either because that's probably something they would lose if this does turn very bad. So, I think this morning the heat is definitely off but not over.

STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Martha Raddatz, thanks very much.

Let's bring in the president’s top communications adviser on national security, John Kirby.

John, thanks for joining us this morning.

What's your assessment of the situation right now?

JOHN KIRBY, WHITE HOUSE NATIONAL SECURITY COMMUNICATIONS ADVISER: Well, obviously, an extraordinary night with extraordinary results. An unprecedented attack on Israel, met with an unprecedent sense of resolve and determination and military capability. But not only by Israel, but by the United States and other partner nations. Truly a successful night. And due to a lot of skill, a lot of professionalism, and a lot of coordination across the board, I mean the Israel – Israel succeeded in defending itself and the United States certainly made good our commitment to help them do that.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you believe the conflict has been contained?

KIRBY: That's going to – I think we're going to have – we’ll know a little bit more in coming days. As the president has made clear, we – everything he's been doing since October 7th has been to try to keep this from becoming a wider regional war. And he prepositioned forces, even in the last few days, destroyers and fighter squadrons into the region to help Israel defend itself, to keep it from becoming a wider war, to keep it from escalating further.

So, we'll, obviously, be vigilant to any threat coming forward, and – and making sure that – that we're meeting that need.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The president also called on Iran not to retaliate, but they did anyway. What does that tell you?

KIRBY: Well, again, what it tells me – as I looked at it last night, what it tell mess is that we can make good on our commitment to defend Israel. It tells me that Israel does have superior military capability. Just think about the hardware that Iran threw into the sky and how little damage that caused. I mean that’s a real testament to how strong the IDF is.

It also tells me, and it should tell everybody else, that Israel’s not alone, that this was a coalition put together to help Israel defend itself. Iran is just increasingly further isolated in the region.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But walk us through the president's conversations with Netanyahu. Is he still warning him against escalation in Gaza? And what was his direct message on this proposed retaliation from Iran?

KIRBY: The main message was, we're with you. You know, he congratulated the prime minister on an extraordinary achievement and success last night, but also to reiterate that the United States is going to continue to help Israel defend itself. That's a commitment going back many, many administrations and the president believes wholeheartedly in it.

And obviously, the president was interested in getting the prime minister’s perspectives on what happened. I won't get ahead of what the prime minister and the war cabinet will or won't do, but the president and the prime minister had a good discussion largely about the extraordinary success of last night.

Again, look, as I said earlier, the president has been very clear, publicly so. We don't seek a war with Iran. We don't seek an escalated -- tensions in the region. We don't seek a wider conflict, and everything he's been doing literally since the 7th of October has been designed to that outcome.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Last night, former President Trump called President Biden a demented tyrant, adding that Israel wouldn't have been attacked on his watch.

Your response?

KIRBY: I won't get into the comments from the campaign trail, George. You know I can’t do that.

But think about this, the commander-in-chief, President Biden, the first one to go to war in the midst of the war, just after October 7th, on the ground, while Israel was still reeling with the effects of October 7th, on the ground there. And this president ordered U.S. forces actively to participate in the defense of Israel, actively shooting down missiles and drones from the sea and from the air.

I mean, that's extraordinary. That's leadership. That's leadership not just in the world, but it shows the power of American leadership around the world.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And what's the latest on the negotiations for hostage release and possible ceasefire?

KIRBY: Still ongoing -- well, actually, the negotiations, they wrapped up a week or so in Cairo. What I meant ongoing, what I meant is the exchange of information is still ongoing.

There is a proposal on the table that was arrived at with very careful diplomacy with our Israeli counterparts, led by the CIA Director Bill Burns. It's on the table.

Hamas needs to take that table. It’s a good deal. It will get those hostages out, at least the first tranche, elderly, sick, women. And it will give us what will be about a six-week ceasefire to allow for an increase in humanitarian assistance.

It's time now to move that forward. It's up to Hamas. We want them to take that deal.

STEPHANOPOULOS: John Kirby, thanks very much.

KIRBY: Thank you.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m joined now by our former colleague, Fareed Zakaria, author of the illuminating new book "Age of Revolutions: Progress and Backlash from 1600 to the President," a magisterial book. We want to talk about that as well.

But let’s start off with what is happening overnight. Has the world dodged a bullet here?

FAREED ZAKARIA, CNN HOST: It has dodged a bullet, but I wouldn't rule -- I wouldn’t rule out escalation yet, because, you know, what’s happened is on April 1st, Israel broke out a longstanding precedent and actually attacked, you know, Iranian territory, the -- in Syria, the Iranian consular building.

Then the Iranians broke a longstanding tradition now and fired missiles directly at Israel.

Until now they had resisted -- both sides had resisted doing that. The question now becomes, can Israel restrain itself from another attack?

Because otherwise, you get into a tit for tat, this -- you know, without painting too many dark scenarios, this is sort of how World War I began, which is nobody wanted to get into the war, but each side felt they couldn't back down.

And so one side, as you can imagine, Israel feeling -- well, you know, we repelled this attack, but we’ve got to do something. Then the Iranians feel like they have to do something.

And the great danger for the United States is that the United States gets dragged into what is otherwise a regional war.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Which is clear that President Biden is doing everything possible to avoid.

ZAKARIA: President Biden was counseling, as far as I understand, Israel not to make that strike on the Iranian embassy facilities. So, he has always been trying to -- from the start of the war, President Biden has been trying to do something very hard, which is show unqualified support for Israel, and at the same time, counsel Bibi Netanyahu on a less expansive, aggressive strategy, more targeted, more discreet, try to avoid the conflict spilling over. It's a very tough balance --

STEPHANOPOULOS: And he's now doing it on two fronts, both with Iran and in Gaza.

ZAKARIA: Exactly. We have almost no influence with Iran. So -- but what's interesting is so far, I think it's fair to say that Bibi Netanyahu has gotten the upper hand in each of these. He pockets the support, but doesn't really listen to the advice.

And I suspect, you know, that's happening even here, and, of course, you know, this does help Prime Minister Netanyahu because it shifts the focus from Gaza. It brings the world in solidarity, particularly the Western world, in solidarity with Israel. Once more, Bibi Netanyahu has found a way to, you know, get his way.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, and this is all against the backdrop of what you call one of the most revolutionary ages in history. So, where does this fit in?

ZAKARIA: So, in a sense, if you think about what Iran is doing, what Russia is doing in Ukraine, what China is doing, all of these countries are very -- are deeply uncomfortable with the wester-led, American-led liberal world order. And a lot of – for them, this is kind of an existential threat. So, they're pushing back in ways that they find they can. You know, the Russians do it in Ukraine. The – the Chinese are trying to do it with regard to Taiwan. And for Iran, the strategy has always been to try to, in some way or the other, use its array of proxies to push back against what it sees as an American-led Middle Eastern order.

So, there's almost a kind of cultural dimension to this. They don't just fear American power, they fear American values.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You talk about culture. We’re seeing that here at home as well. And you're saying that former President Trump and his candidacy is a culmination, not the cause of an identity politics revolution. Explain what you mean by that.

ZAKARIA: So, I think for the last 30 or 40 years in this country we have had an identity revolution on a scale most people don't realize. I mean think about the role of women. For thousands of years women were second-class citizens. And thank God that has changed in the last 30 or 40 years. Blacks, Hispanics, gays, everyone is rising out of the shadows into the mainstream. That has unnerved a lot of people. That has unsettled a lot of people. And you're seeing a cultural reaction to it everywhere.

By the way, Islamic fundamentalism, it's fundamentally, you know, obsessed with the idea of the role of women, bring – put them back. If you look at Christian nationalism, similarly worried about the role of women. If you look at the ultraorthodox in Israel. So there's a very broad, cultural reaction against it. Trump – I've always said this, Donald Trump is not a good businessman, but he’s a good salesman. And he can sense, I think in that 2016 campaign, he could sense where the crowd was, and he realized the core issues were not as they had been for Republicans for decades, economic issues, there were cultural issues.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, this – you say this is a global phenomenon. Can this global phenomenon be contained, this backlash?

ZAKARIA: It's up to the West to -- you know, to have confidence in itself, up to America to lead the West. Even Xi Jinping, by the way, has been giving speeches about how women have become too liberated. They need to go back into the kitchen and have more babies.

The key challenges in Ukraine, probably even more than here. But, you know, this is the big question for the future, can the United States keep the West together, believe – you know, continue to believe in our values and push back because if we don't, those other forces are determined to unravel the western-led liberal order, American power, and again, American values. What they – what Putin and Xi and the Iranian mullahs fear is that Western, liberal values are going to undermine their base of support. So, for them, this is existential. They're going to fight. The question is, are we going to fight back?

STEPHANOPOULOS: Fareed, thanks as always. It is a bracing book, “Age of Revolutions.” It’s out right now. Thanks for coming in.

ZAKARIA: Always a pleasure, George.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Up next, Donald Trump's criminal trial opens tomorrow. The first criminal trial ever for a former president. It’s in Manhattan. We’ll have a preview from senior investigative correspondent Aaron Katersky, plus Trump supporter Governor Chris Sununu of New Hampshire.

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(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MICHAEL COHEN, FORMER ATTORNEY FOR DONALD TRUMP: The prosecutors are going to put forth their case. I'm just the narrator. And rest assured, Alvin Bragg and the prosecutorial team over at the District Attorney of New York's office would not have brought this case unless they thought that they were going to be successful.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: That was Michael Cohen, who will be a key and no doubt controversial witness as Donald Trump becomes the first former president to stand trial in a criminal case. Jury selection begins tomorrow in the New York case over Trump's payments in 2016 to porn actress Stormy Daniels. Prosecutors have to prove that the payments were part of a criminal scheme to protect Trump's campaign.

Senior investigative correspondent Aaron Katersky has been tracking the case.

Good morning, Aaron.

AARON KATERSKY, SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: George, good morning to you. The country's about to witness something never seen before, a former American president on trial as a criminal defendant in a case that could land him in prison.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATERSKY (voice over): The criminal trial former President Trump faces is nearly a decade in the making, dating to his efforts to conceal long-denied claims he had sex with porn actress Stormy Daniels.

STORMY DANIELS, PORN ACTRESS: I relish the day that I get to face him and speak my truth.

KATERSKY: At the time, Trump's 2016 presidential campaign was being buffeted by this video in which Trump was heard boasting of grabbing women.

FORMER PRESIDENT DONALD J. TRUMP: And when you're a star, they let you do it. You can do anything.

KATERSKY: Prosecutors allege Trump feared for his electoral prospects if the public were to learn about Daniels, so he dispatched his longtime fixer Michael Cohen to pay her off and, the indictment said, Trump masked the payments as legal fees.

Manhattan District Attorney Alvin Bragg said the whole scheme was part of Trump's campaign, and illegal.

ALVIN BRAGG, (D) MANHATTAN DISTRICT ATTORNEY: Thirty-four false statements made to cover up other crimes.

KATERSKY: Trump was indicted a little more than a year ago. He has denied wrongdoing and has attacked the case, the prosecutor and the judge.

TRUMP: He's a Democrat judge. He wants to do that because they're all trying to damage Trump as much as possible. It's having the reverse effect.

KATERSKY: The New York case begins a bizarre chapter in American political history, as Trump faces a succession of indictments and wages a campaign to return to the White House from courthouses up and down the East Coast.

TRUMP: This is a witch hunt. It's a hoax.

KATERSKY: But in recent weeks, Trump has tried repeatedly to delay his Manhattan trial, sending his lawyers, day after day, to an appeals court that has turned them back each time. Tomorrow the trial begins with jury selection. Hundreds of New Yorkers have been summoned. All of them will fill out a seven-page questionnaire asking whether they've ever attended a Trump rally or follow him on social media. Potential jurors will also be asked if they have "firmly held beliefs" about whether a former president can be charged with a crime.

TRUMP: You know, jury selection is largely luck. It depends who you get.

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KATERSKY: George, this courthouse is known by its address, 100 Center Street. It's where Mark David Chapman admitted to killing John Lennon, where Lenny Bruce faced obscenity charges and, starting tomorrow, where the first former American president to face criminal charges will stand trial. George?

STEPHANOPOULOS: Aaron Katersky, thanks.

We're joined now by New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, who worked against Donald Trump during the primaries, has now endorsed the former president.

Governor, thank you for joining us this morning.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU, (R) NEW HAMPSHIRE: You bet.

STEPHANOPOULOS: History being made tomorrow, that criminal trial. Will your support for Donald Trump continue even if he's convicted in Manhattan?

SUNUNU: Yeah, look, this -- this trial is not going to have major political ramifications that a lot of people, I think, think it may have. And when it comes to these issues, people see it more as reality TV at this point. They really do. And so, you know, whether it's a conviction or what that conviction looks like, a lot of folks, they conflate all four of these different trials that he's in.

I don't think it's good that he's going to be in the court, have to be in there probably three days a week, you know, for a number of weeks. That takes him off the campaign trail. He'll probably go back on the campaign trail and almost, like, rehash what's going on. He'll try to victimize it. And that has worked for him, right? I mean, this has been going on for over a year, and his poll numbers never seem to go down because of the issue.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, yeah, you're going to politics, though. I'm asking you about right and wrong. You think it's -- you're comfortable with the idea of supporting someone who's convicted of a federal crime as president?

SUNUNU: Oh, no. No -- I don't think any American is comfortable with any of this. They don't like any of this, of course. But, I mean, when it comes to actually, you know, looking at each of these trials, as they, kind of, take place whether it's this year or next year, or as they, kind of, line up, right now this is about an election, right? This is about politics. That's what people are judging this on. And the ultimate, you know, decision will be -- will be in November, to see where people are.

But for months, and even over a year, we've heard that these are the things that are going to bring Donald Trump down. It's not. And to think that the American public is going to be massively swayed by this, politically or otherwise, that's -- that's not going to happen. If anything --

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m asking whether you’re going to be swayed by it.

SUNUNU: Yeah --

STEPHANOPOULOS: I mean, you're a governor.

SUNUNU: No, no.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You're an elected official. I’m asking whether you're going to be swayed by it.

SUNUNU: Yeah. Look, nobody should be shocked that the Republican governor is supporting the Republican president.

Do you know what the real story is? The average American that has gone from Biden back to Trump, the average American that is feeling inflation and all these other issues that says, look, do all this -- whether there's a conviction or not, we want a culture change in Washington, D.C., and we'll continue to support the former -- former President Trump.

That's the real story, right? That Trump is leading in the polls across America in a lot of these different polls.

So, no one should be surprised by my support. What -- I think the real discussion is, you know, America's moving away from Biden. That's how bad Biden has become as president. There's just no doubt about it, right?

You can't ignore inflation. You can't ignore the border and say that these issues in the courthouse are going to be the one thing that brings Biden back into office. It's not going to happen that way.

STEPHANOPOULOS: As you mentioned, this is one of only several indictments the former president is facing. Perhaps the most consequential one, of course, related to January 6th.

Right after that January 6 attack, I want to put this up on the screen, you said: It is clear that President Trump's rhetoric and actions contributed to the insurrection. The domestic terrorists who attacked the United States Capitol must be held accountable and prosecuted.

Do you stand by that statement?

SUNUNU: A hundred percent, of course. They have to be prosecuted, and they are being prosecuted. That's good.

I think he -- his actions absolutely contributed to that. There's no question about that. I hate the election denialism of 2020. Nobody wants to be talking about that in 2024.

I think all of that was absolutely terrible, but what people are going to be voting for, what I -- what -- the reason I’m supporting not just the president, but the Republican administration. That's what this is.

They want a culture of change in Washington, all the rules and policies that pound down on the American people. All the wokeness, right? The fact that folks in Washington, liberal elites in Washington want to stand on the shoulders of hardworking American families that built this country, defended this country and tell them how to live their lives.

They're angry. They're upset. That's the culture change that people want to see.

People are upset by January 6th. They're upset by the election denial. They have every right to be -- I am -- but at the end of the day, they need a culture change to get America back on track.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So -- but wait a second right there. Your words were very, very clear on January 11th, 2021. You said that President Trump’s rhetoric and actions contributed to the insurrection.

No other president in American history --

SUNUNU: Yes.

STEPHANOPOULOS: -- has contributed to an insurrection.

So, please explain, given the fact that you believe he contributed to an insurrection, how you can say we should have him back in the Oval Office?

SUNUNU: It's not -- because for me, it's not about him as much as it is having a Republican administration -- Republican secretaries, Republican rules, a sense where states' rights come first, individual rights come first, parents’ rights come first.

We’re going to have a pro-business economy. We’re not going to have a cancel culture that has really infiltrated all across America.

It's not about Trump with me. It’s about bringing those more live free or die --

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: But he will be the president. You’re saying --

SUNUNU: I’m the governor of the live free or die state, bringing that mentality back.

STEPHANOPOULOS: That doesn't make any sense to me, Governor. I’m sorry. You're saying it's not about Trump. You’re saying -- he would be the president, and you’ve said he’s an insu -- somebody who’s contributed to an insurrection.

SUNUNU: I understand it doesn't make sense to you, George, but look at the polls. What you’re telling me is you don't understand why 51 percent of this country is supporting Donald Trump.

They're not crazy. They're not MAGA conservatives. They're not extremists. They want culture change. So, I appreciate --

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: Governor, I’m not talking -- I’m not talking --

SUNUNU: The bigger issue is --

STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m not talking about polls. I’m asking you a very simple question. You believe Donald Trump contributed to an insurrection. That's correct, right?

SUNUNU: I stand by the statement.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You stand by the statement that he contributed to an insurrection.

SUNUNU: Look, his words -- he -- his words --

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: And you believe that someone -- you believe that a president who contributed to an insurrection should be president again?

SUNUNU: As does 51 percent of America, George. I mean, really.

I understand you're part of the media. I understand you’re in this New York City bubble or whatever it is, but you’ve got to look around what's happening across this country. They’re not -- it's not about just supporting Trump. It’s getting rid of what we have today.

It's about understanding inflation is crushing families. It's understanding that this border issue is not a Texas issue. It's a 50-state issue, right, that has to be brought under control.

It's about that type of elitism that the average American is just sick and tired of. And it's a culture change. That's what I’m supporting. That's what most of America right now is looking to support, and wants to change there.

That’s -- so, again, I know you're shocked that the Republican governor is supporting a Republican president and the Republican ticket, but it's about the ticket. It's about up and down the ballot, right?

I want Republican governors and senators and congressmen, and that type of culture, if you will. I keep going back to that because that's exactly what it is. That's the change America is looking for.

STEPHANOPOULOS: I’m --

SUNUNU: And they’re not relitigating January 6th. It's not a top issue.

If you ask the average American, is January 6 a top issue and you go on the ballot box, not even in the top five. It doesn't mean it’s not -- it wasn’t a significant point, doesn’t mean we weren't extremely disappointed by his words and actions, doesn’t mean we -- you know, that we tap into this election denialism, which I believe very -- very -- I think it's terrible what he's done on the election denial.

But again, it's not a top issue. People are voting on what's happening in their homes, what's happening with inflation, what's happening on the border, right? That's real, and that's what they're going to vote for, so --

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, you're against the election denialism which the president -- former president repeated last night. You believe he contributed to the insurrection on January 6th. You believe it doesn't matter if he's convicted in the Manhattan case.

He's also facing another indictment over classified documents. Previously, you've said these charges are serious and Trump should drop out of the race if he's convicted. Do you still believe that?

SUNUNU: Well, look, in a primary -- look, we fought hard in the primary. We got behind Nikki. This is the chaos that Nikki Haley and I and others warned about was going to follow Trump. That it's just a complete distraction. I would rather have Republicans on the campaign trail talking about real issues than, you know, having to talk about this stuff. It's a complete distraction.

It doesn't mean he's going to lose and it doesn't people aren't going to support the Republican ticket because, right now, it looks like they are. But, that's the distraction we're all trying to avoid.

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: But, I'm asking you a different question. I'm asking you a different question. I'm asking you a different question because you said in the past that he should drop out if he's convicted in the classified documents case. Do you still believe that?

SUNUNU: No. No. No. He's going to drop out after being the nominee? Of course, not. You know, that's not to be expected at all. All of these cases, by the way, the average American, it's on conflated, right? We watched this stuff. We watch the details. The average American sees it more as a reality TV. I am not saying it's not -- there not real issues to bear there, of course there are. But, there's clearly politics to bear in some of these cases, that is undeniable.

The average American just thinks it's more reality TV and prosecution of him at this point. He plays that victim card very, very well. His poll numbers only go up with this stuff. So to think that this is some sort of deal breaker, again, I'll go back to where I started where people are going to say, yep, if he's convicted I'm walking away. That's just not going to happen. At the end of the day, they want that culture change of the Republican Party, and if we have Trump as the standard bearer -- and the voters decided that's what they wanted, not what I wanted, but what the voters -- what the Republican voters wanted, he's going to be the standard bearer that we'll it take it if we have to. That's how badly America wants a culture change.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So just to sum up, you would support him for president even if he is convicted in classified documents. You would support him for president even though you believe he contributed to an insurrection. You would support him for president even though you believe he's lying about the last election. You would support him for president even if he's convicted in the Manhattan case. I just want to say, the answer to that is yes, correct?

SUNUNU: Yes, me and 51 percent of America.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Governor, thanks for your time this morning.

Up next, Arizona puts the abortion debate back in the spotlight. Rachel Scott reports from the battleground state, plus Democratic Senator Tina Smith joins us live.

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STEPHANOPOULOS: The Arizona Supreme Court’s decision to uphold a near total ban on abortion sent shock waves across the country. Rachel Scott was on the ground in Arizona, has the latest on the fallout of the 2024 elections.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice over): It's already one of the most closely watched battleground states, but a consequential ruling in Arizona upholding a 160-year-old near total ban on abortion now putting the issue at the center of the 2024 race.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This is 2024, not the 1800s. And we're not going back.

SCOTT (voice over): Democrats trying to seize momentum, putting these billboards up around the state. Former President Donald Trump, once bound to sign a federal abortion ban, now he says it's not necessary.

SCOTT: Why should Americans trust your word that you would not do it now if you were re-elected?

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Because we don't need it any longer, because we broke Roe v. Wade, and we did something that nobody thought was possible. We gave it back to the states. And it's working the way it's supposed to.

SCOTT (voice over): Vice President Kamala Harris firing back, saying Trump cleared the way for 21 states to ban or restrict access to abortion by appointing three of the five Supreme Court justices who overturned Roe versus Wade.

HARRIS: Donald Trump just said the collection of state bans is, quote, “working the way it is supposed to.”

SCOTT (voice over): Trump has acknowledged abortion was a losing issue for Republicans in the midterm. And despite saying the issue should be left up to the states, Trump, on Friday, also writing in a social media post that the Arizona ruling went too far, and calling on state leaders to remedy what has happened.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Shame on you.

SCOTT (voice over): The Arizona state legislature was expected to swiftly repeal the law, but Republicans blocked that effort. Doctors describing chaos and confusion.

DR. JILL GIBSON, CHIEF MEDICAL DIRECTOR, PLANNED PARENTHOOD ARIZONA: I'm having patients who have received abortions last week call and say, am I still going to be able to receive my follow-up care?

SCOTT (voice over): Providers who perform abortions could face up to five years in prison.

SCOTT: Is there a sense of fear among abortion providers?

DR. DESHAWN TAYLOR, OWNER, DESERT STAR INSTITUTE FOR FAMILY PLANNING: I would say undoubtedly. I didn't go to medical school to go to jail.

SCOTT (voice over): Arizona's Democratic Attorney General Kris Mayes says she won't enforce the law, but concedes she can't stop local prosecutors.

KRIS MAYES, (D) ARIZONA ATTORNEY GENERAL: I would urge Arizonans who are pregnant to make a plan. And I can't believe I'm having to say that, but it's time to make a plan for 60 days for now, if something goes wrong, if you need an abortion, if you want an abortion, start thinking about California and Nevada and New Mexico or Colorado.

SCOTT (voice over): Now voters could ultimately decide this issue in November. When Arizona and as many as 13 other states have abortion measures on the ballot, including in Florida, where a six-week ban is set to become law on May 1st. Abortion rights has won in all six states where it has been on the ballot, including conservative states like Ohio, Kansas, and Kentucky.

MAYES: I promise you this, the people of Arizona are going to make sure that this 1864 ban is buried forever in November when they pass a ballot initiative to enshrine abortion rights in our constitution.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

STEPHANOPOULOS: And we're joined now by Senator Tina Smith of Minnesota.

Thank you for joining us this morning, Senator.

You know, we just heard what’s happening in Arizona based on this Comstock law. You’re leading an effort in the House to repeal it. Any prospects for success?

SEN. TINA SMITH, (D) MINNESOTA: Well, you know, first of all, I just want to say, George, that American women are not going to be conned by Donald Trump and his comments about abortion. We know that he is the one who is responsible for what's going on in Arizona and all over the country. So, that's the bottom line, I think, as we think about the election coming up.

With regard to the Comstock Act, OK, so this is a 150-year-old law that has been long relegated to the dust bin of history, and yet we can see Trump judges, and even the United States Supreme Court, raising this up as a reason why people shouldn't be able to get medication abortion through the mail. So, we have to pay attention to this and make sure that we are doing everything that we can to protect people's rights to make their own decisions about their own bodies and their own lives.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Is there anything more that President Biden could be doing now with executive action to protect those rights?

SMITH: I'm really grateful that the president has done everything that he possibly can to protect people's rights. And he is fighting right now to make sure that the FDA's authority to make decisions about whether medications like Mifepristone are -- that their decision-making is what rules and not the decision of some Trump judge from Texas, which is what's happening before the Supreme Court right now.

So I think that they're doing everything that they can. What we need to do is to win these elections so that we can put the protections of Roe in law.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You say that the American people will not be conned by Donald Trump, but his position now is relatively clear, isn't it, saying this should be a state by state issue?

SMITH: Well, so think about what that means exactly. First of all, he said that he is the person who is proudly responsible for overturning Roe. That is what has caused all of this chaos and cruelty to the one in three American women who live in states where abortion is now basically banned.

The other thing he said just a couple of days ago is that these state bans are working the way they should. So ask a woman in Arizona or Texas whether she thinks this is working for her. Because, for her, this isn't a political discussion. This is about her personal life and her decisions that she can make for herself about her own life.

So I think that his position is totally clear. He is responsible for these abortion bans, and I think he's going to be held accountable for that come the election in November.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Given what you think is the power of this issue and everything else we've seen over the course of this election, how do you explain the fact that Donald Trump is either tied or ahead of President Biden in most polls?

SMITH: Well, you know, there's so much talk about these polls right now. I've been working -- you know, I started out in politics working as an organizer and going door to door, talking to my community. And so I know that what matters is the choice that people are faced with when they actually cast their vote. And that is what's going to make all the difference in the world.

And on this issue, on the issue of abortion rights, the choice couldn't be more clear, right? You have Joe Biden and Kamala Harris, who are fighting to protect people's freedom, and Donald Trump, who's responsible for taking it away.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Senator Smith, thank you for your time this morning.

SMITH: Thank you.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Roundtable's up next. We're back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: The roundtable's here. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. MIKE JOHNSON, (R) SPEAKER OF THE UNITED HOUSE OF REPRESENTATIVES: With President Trump as our nominee in the party, we are very much looking forward to that historic day in November because we're going to grow the House majority, we are going to win the United States Senate and we are going to win back the White House as well.

DONALD TRUMP, (R) FORMER PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We're getting along very well with the Speaker. It's not an easy situation for any Speaker. I think he's doing a very good job. He's doing about as good as you're going to do.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

STEPHANOPOULOS: Former President Trump and Mike Johnson, Speaker of the House, on Friday at Mar-a-Lago. Let's talk about this and many other things on the roundtable with former DNC Chair Donna Brazile; Former RNC Chair, Trump White House Chief of Staff, Reince Priebus; the Executive Editor of the Associated Press, Julie Pace; and Washington Post Congressional Reporter Marianna Sotomayor.

Marianna, let me begin with you, you cover Congress every single day. Speaker Johnson has been in some trouble, he got that lifeline from President Trump, is it enough?

MARIANNA SOTOMAYOR, WASHINGTON POST CONGRESSIONAL REPORTER: We are about to find out this week. It is going to be a consequential week for the Speaker as well as House Republicans. They were always going to tackle the question of whether to send funding to Ukraine and Israel. Given just the developments of the last 24 hours, it is imperative now for many House Republicans, who were trying to potentially delay that question, to address it.

Marjorie Taylor Greene has said before that if Johnson sends any funding bill to Ukraine, that that is what's going to trigger this motion to vacate, even though Trump has already said, you know, I stand with the Speaker, I think he's doing a good job in a very tough situation. We're really going to see all of this play out by the end of the week.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Do you think he ended it?

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: I think so. I think two things. One, Republicans, almost all of us, understand that getting rid of Speaker Johnson is complete stupidity, number one, and the Republicans would risk losing the House majority. And third, I think we have had enough of the circus in the House with this stuff, and President Trump knows it. His campaign knows it, and that's why he's putting a lid on it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What a week in abortion politics, Donna Brazile, with that decision from the Arizona Supreme Court. Is this the magic bullet the Democrats believe it is?

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR & FORMER DNC CHAIR: It's something that all women should be concerned about. George, I've never heard from my nieces the way I've heard from them over the last couple of months because they live in the South, and where will women go when their IVF is banned? When they are worried about birth control, when they're worried aboutwhether or not, if something, God forbid, is to happen, could they receive medical care?

Yes, is it a galvanizing issue for Americans who are concerned about reproductive rights and freedom? Absolutely. Will democrats make sure that those victims, those women who are having these horrifying experiences get to tell their story? Absolutely.

And who's responsible? Donald Trump. He owns it. He brags about it. And we're going to remind the American people.

STEPHANOPOULOS: The former president thought he put this behind him by coming out of this -- by coming up with this states' rights solution, according to him.

JULIE PACE, ASSOCIATED PRESS EXECUTIVE EDITOR: Well, and then the timing is remarkable because, just a few days later, you see what happens when you leave this issue to the states, which is what he says he wants to do. And you have a state that takes this position, which is objectively far outside of the mainstream of where most Americans are, even those who support restrictions on -- on abortion, and then to have it happen in a state that is going to be so consequential to this election.

And I think, if you look at the map that you showed earlier, of where the politics and where voters have been on this, really they have come down on one side, over the course of the last several months, which is on upholding rights for -- for abortions.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You have seen two elections in a row where this abortion issue seemed to really propel Democrats, Reince?

PRIEBUS: It's a lifeline to the Democrats. There's no doubt about it. And Republicans have not been able to get themselves out of the mud. I think President Trump did take the position that he had to take, and Republicans have to do a better job of winning the hearts and minds of these voters. Because where the Democrats have had success is convincing people that any regulation on abortion is an affront to their civil rights, when 80 percent of the American people believe that abortion in a third trimester is wrong; 66 percent of the American people think abortion after the first trimester is wrong.

That's where Republicans need to be. But until they can get their message together, this has been a lifeline to the Democrats. And I think President Trump, what you saw, is that he understood it, and he wanted to move on from it.

BRAZILE: No, it's punishment. When a -- when a 12 or 13-year-old --

PRIEBUS: In the third trimester.

BRAZILE: When a 12 or 13-year-old girl, who didn't know she was pregnant, is raped --

PRIBEUS: We're talking about the third trimester here.

BRAZILE: -- is raped. You want to get third, second trimester? Let women make this decision. Trust women to make this decision.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: And this is not a Democrat or Republican. This is an American freedom issue for women. We fought for this right to be able to make a decision based on our own bodies.

PRIEBUS: Donna --

BRAZILE: And you want to get into the technicality --

PRIEBUS: -- here's a question --

BRAZILE: That's it. You men want to tell us what to do with our bodies.

PRIEBUS: No --

BRAZILE: You want to tell us how long our period should last. You want to tell us how long we should be pregnant, where we can go if we need IVF treatment. No, I'm hearing it.

Now, thank God I'm not Sarah in the Bible. She had a baby in her 60s. So I am grateful that I'm beyond those ages. But I am concerned that my nieces are being given less rights to choose. And to go back to an 1860-era, when my great-grandmother barely just got her freedom, hell, no. We're not going back.

PRIEBUS: Nobody – OK --

BRAZILE: And this is going to be like a MAGA movement. It's a movement where women are sick and tired of men telling us what to do with our bodies.

PRIEBUS: OK, no one wants to go back to 1864. But the question for Democrats --

BRAZILE: But you're going back.

PRIEBUS: The question for Democrats is, at what point should there be a regulation? Is it halfway through the pregnancy? Is it two-thirds? Is there any place in this conversation where there is a moment in time that abortion should be regulated?

BRAZILE: Her health should be the priority, her health. What's so hard about the health of a woman?

PACE: The challenge that Republicans have right now, though --

BRAZILE: The health --

PRIEBUS: -- 30th week --

BRAZILE: The health of a woman --

PRIEBUS: -- a health issue --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Julie, go ahead.

PACE: The problem that Republicans have right now is that, when you do look at polls, you're right. There are -- the majority of Americans support -- are open to some restrictions, but you're talking about third trimester. And you look at Florida, six-week ban. You look at what happened in Arizona.

PRIEBUS: True.

PACE: These are positions that are outside of the -- where most Americans are right now.

PRIEBUS: And Republicans have not been able to get out of the ditch on this issue because they're framing it in these early stages and they're not finding a position that the majority of Americans support.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You see anything happening in Congress this year on this? Or is this all about November?

SOTOMAYOR: No. I mean, Republicans, especially in the House, who have the majority, have been saying for a long time, since the moment that they did not win in 2020 with the bigger margins that they thought they would, we cannot have a vote on any kind of federal legislation on abortion, because they will lose the majority.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Julie, we enter a new world tomorrow, first former president ever to face a criminal trial. What should we expect?

PACE: It's pretty remarkable. We're going to go through this procedural act of (inaudible) a jury, and something that many of us have sat through, being on a jury before, and yet, it is going to be for a trial of a former president of the United States. We've literally never seen this before, and Trump is going to use this courtroom and other courtrooms to come as really the centerpiece of his campaign. It's worked for him through the primary. I think the question now will be, how that sliver of moderate voters, that sliver of persuadable voters will react to seeing him in this (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: That's what I want to bring to Reince. Reince, do you believe the former president needs either an acquittal or a mistrial, or do you think the conviction won't matter either?

PRIEBUS: I think in this case, in particular, it's the most political case of them all, and I think people see that. The U.S. Attorney didn't take it. Previous D.A. didn't take it. Federal Election Commission didn't move forward with it. And it only takes one juror, and the question that I don't think a lot of people are talking about is --

STEPHANOPOULOS: Well, but that's what I'm asking. I understand what happens if there's a mistrial, and I understand if he's acquitted. I think you are right, then both of those could help him politically. I'm asking about a conviction.

PRIEBUS: Yeah. I don't think in this particular case, it's going to move much. But again, when there's only 100,000 people deciding the outcome of an election, I don't think anyone can say with definitive proof, one way or the other.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Donna?

BRAZILE: Well, I think all of these trials are important, and this is the first time -- we've never been here before, George. So I don't know the playbook. But I understand that Donald Trump is going to come out every day and just try to pour hot water on the proceedings.

Look, I don't want to get into the lurid details of what may or may not have happened, and what records might have been falsified, but to have a sitting president of the United States in court for three to four days a week, when you should be out there meeting the voters, talking to the people about the issues that they're concerned about, that is a loss, a net loss.

And that is why Joe Biden is making tremendous gains in the poll, not enough to overtake anybody, but enough to show that he's ready to compete.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: -- all day.

BRAZILE: Thank God.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Thank you all very much. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

STEPHANOPOULOS: That is all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight," and I'll see you tomorrow on "GMA."

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