'This Week' Transcript: Former Gov. Mike Huckabee, Sen. Bernie Sanders

The two presidential candidates are interviewed on "This Week."

ByABC News
June 28, 2015, 10:11 AM


ANNOUNCER: Starting right now on ABC's THIS WEEK, marriage for all -- the historic Supreme Court ruling.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Our love is people.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The man who brought the ground-breaking case is here.

ObamaCare saved again.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Another landmark ruling.

Plus, message to the nation -- Obama's extraordinary eulogy for the pastor murdered in the Charleston tragedy.

Where does the debate over the Confederate flag go now?

America's week of epic transformation, we're covering every angle.

And 2016 contenders Mike Huckabee and Bernie Sanders are here live.


GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, HOST: What a week it has been. Rarely has so much history been made in so few days.

Confederate flags flying all across the South, rainbow flags rising all across the country, even the White House. And at the center of it all, President Obama. In what may be his best week in office, he passes a trade bill left for dead days ago, appears in the Rose Garden to celebrate those striking decisions from the Supreme Court, serving ObamaCare for the second time.

And for the first time, securing the right to marriage for all Americans.


BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: This decision affirms what millions of Americans already believe in their hearts, when all Americans are treated as equal, we are all more free.


STEPHANOPOULOS: Then, that arresting scene in Charleston -- a president summoning the spirit of America in song.


STEPHANOPOULOS: What a week, indeed. So much to debate and analyze this morning.

And we begin at the Supreme Court with our expert, Terry Moran -- and, Terry, you've been covering the court now for about three decades.

Have you ever seen back to back cases like this pack such a powerful punch?

TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: No, George, I can't say I did. The court has seen a lot of history, as you know. And I guess I've seen a lot of history by this point. And I can't think of a week to match it.

The court with emphatic finality, bringing to a close two national debates that have been roiling the country -- health care, ObamaCare and equality for gay and lesbian Americans under the marriage laws. It was a demonstration, for better or worse, depending on how you think about it, of the tremendous power of this court and the men and women who sit on it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And the most powerful, Chief Justice John Roberts. President Obama voted against him when he was confirmed as chief justice. But now, for the second time, Justice Roberts saves ObamaCare.

MORAN: You know, and he's written his name in infamy with conservatives. He's going to be chief justice for a long time, however, and we did see, in that case and in the gay marriage case, something very true about him. This is a judge who doesn't like to swing for the fences. He wouldn't join Justice Scalia, the last time or this time, in bringing down ObamaCare, and this time, plunging the health care of millions of Americans into chaos. And he wouldn't join Justice Kennedy in rewriting the marriage laws of all 50 states.

He is a don't rock the boat justice on a court that likes to rock the boat.

STEPHANOPOULOS: In fact, in that -- in that same-sex marriage case, a pretty fierce defend -- dissent from Justice Roberts. But Justice Kennedy now really feels his place in history, as well.

MORAN: Absolutely. What an unlikely champion of gay rights, in some ways. I actually covered his confirmation hearing back in 1987 when he took over from Judge Robert Bork. And that debate was fiercely intellectual and ideological. And from the get go back then right until this week, Justice Kennedy has always shown that for him, judging isn't just about intellectual rigor, and much to the mockery of many conservatives and academics, he's always brought heart to his decisions, and a Western libertarian streak. Liberty the most important word in Justice Kennedy's jurisprudence. And today and this week, he demonstrated that he wanted to extend that liberty and the equality, the equal justice under law, to all Americans under the marriage laws and wrote, really, a landmark opinion.

STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, thanks, Terry.

Now to the man who brought that landmark case to the Supreme Court, Jim Obergefell. With his husband dying from ALS, Jim filed suit against Ohio's Department of Health so he could be officially recognized as the surviving spouse.

And there he is on the steps of the Supreme Court this week, celebrating the decision.

He joins us from San Francisco this morning.

And here in New York, one of the founding fathers of the same sex marriage movement, Evan Wolfson, president of Freedom to Mary.

And Jim, let me begin with you.

We saw you on the Supreme Court steps getting that phone call, also, from President Obama on Friday.

Two days out, how does it all feel?

JIM OBERGEFELL, SUPREME COURT LITIGANT: It still feels a bit unreal, George. I find it hard to believe that, you know, the simple fight that I started with my husband -- and by simple, I mean it was about us -- it's now had implications so far beyond us. It's been amazing. It's hard to believe that it's happened.

STEPHANOPOULOS: As you know, a lot of Americans still upset by this ruling. Governor Mike Huckabee is going to be coming on the program later. He's calling on people to resist and reject what he calls judicial tyranny. What's your message to him and those who are angry about this decision?

OBERGEFELL: Well, I would simply like to say, think about your brother, your son, your sister, your daughter, a dear friend. If one of them were gay, they would still be the same person. You would still love them. And wouldn't you want them to enjoy the same rights that you do and that everyone else in this country does? We're simply asking to be treated equally and fairly and to enjoy the institution of marriage and to be able to commit to the ones we love.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Evan Wolfson here in New York.

Chief Justice Roberts' fiery dissent he read from the bench. And one of the points he made, he said that, listen, your movement, he said, is making progress all across the country. Legislatures are voting - voting for same-sex marriage and that's where it belongs. He went on to say this. He said stealing this issue from the people will, for many, cast a cloud over same-sex marriage, making a dramatic social change that much more difficult to accept. How do you respond to that?

EVAN WOLFSON, PRESIDENT, FREEDOM TO MARRY: Well, I think it's no more true in this case than it was in Loving versus Virginia or Brown versus Board of Education or other civil rights milestones in our country. We worked very hard to move the American people and the American people did move. Sixty-three percent now support the freedom to marry, and that's going to go up. Way back it was 27 percent when I started working on this. But the fact of the matter is, we have a constitution and the Constitution guarantees the freedom to marry the equality that Jim spoke so movingly of gay people's aspirations to share in, and we shouldn't have to be working to get a vote and be up or down on whether any American can share in that constitutional guarantee. That's why we have a constitution.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And you laid out the (INAUDIBLE) argument back in 1983. I believe you were in Harvard Law School. That was your thesis at Harvard Law School. You've been fighting - I think the support for gay marriage is probably lower than 27 percent then.


STEPHANOPOULOS: But what now? Freedom to Marry, your group, goes out of business. What's the next challenge?

WOLFSON: Right. Well, of course, the work is not done. Number one, we have won the freedom to marry in the law, but we need to harness the conversation. We need to bring the stories like Jim and John's and many others to places where the conversation has only just started, in Georgia, in Alabama, in Texas and so on and really give people a chance to see the quiet dignity of gay couples, our love, our commitment and our desire to participate. And we need to harness that growth and understanding that will come from people seeing these real people to the work ahead, including particularly a federal civil rights law prohibiting discrimination on the basis of sexual orientation and gender identity.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And, Jim, what's next for you?

OBERGEFELL: Well, George, for me it will be to continue in this fight. I've discovered that fighting for something that's bigger than me is very important to me and I will continue, like Evan said, to be involved in the fight for non-discrimination, to make sure that the LGBT community across the country truly is equal part - an equal part of society and deserving and - of all the same rights and protections.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Jim Obergefell, Evan Wolfson, thank you very much.

WOLFSON: Thank you, George.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Let's turn now to Mike Huckabee, former governor of Arkansas, now running for president on the Republican side.

Governor, you just heard Jim Obergefell. What's your response?

GOV. MIKE HUCKABEE (R), PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You know, I'm deeply moved by his comments and I understand his personal passions, but I would warn people that what we have seen this week is something that changes not so much the product but the process of how we govern. We've always been a nation of law. We're now a nation of men.

What happened this week is so brilliantly pointed out by Justice Scalia is that this was not done through the legislative process. This was done through a court edict of five unelected lawyers, a part of a committee, who decided that they knew better than the legislators who actually get to make law, that they know better than the people who voted in over 30 states to affirm traditional marriage.

And, George, this case wasn't so much about a matter of marriage equality, it was marriage redefinition. And I think people have to say, if you're going to have a new celebration that we're not going to discriminate, may I ask, are we going to now discriminate against people of conscience, people of faith who may disagree with this ruling. Are they going to be forced, either out of business, like the florist, the caterers, the photographers, like the CEO of Mozilla, who was run out of his job because of a personal contribution to support a proposition in California that actually won on the ballet.


HUCKABEE: Are we going to trade one level of what's called discrimination for a new level of discrimination against people of faith.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So what exactly are you calling on people to do right now? You say resist and reject this judicial tyranny. Spell out exactly what that means?

HUCKABEE: George, judicial tyranny is when we believe that the courts have a right to bypass the process of law and we've really seen it this week in two cases, in both the Obamacare case, which Justice Scalia called it - said we not - should call it SCOTUScare because they have rescued it twice, ex cathedra to the law, and then in the same-sex marriage ruling in which -

STEPHANOPOULOS: So are you calling for civil disobedience?

HUCKABEE: I don't think a lot of pastors and Christian schools are going to have a choice. They either are going to follow God, their conscience and what they truly believe is what the scripture teaches them, or they will follow civil law. They will go the path of Dr. Martin Luther King, who in his brilliant essay the letters from a Birmingham jail reminded us, based on what St. Augustine said, that an unjust law is no law at all. And I do think that we're going to see a lot of pastors who will have to make this tough decision.

You're going to see it on the part of Christian business owners. You'll see it on the part of Christian university presidents, Christian school administrators. If they refuse to -

STEPHANOPOULOS: What about county clerks? Should they issue same-sex marriage licenses?

HUCKABEE: If they have a - a conscientious objection, I think they should be excused. I'm not sure that every governor and every attorney general should just say, well, it's the law of the land because there's no enabling legislation. For the states who have a constitutional amendment that affirms marriage, as has been affirmed by the courts for 135 years since the ratification of the 14th amendment, right up through the first time we've seen same-sex marriage enacted by any state, which was Massachusetts, in many states you have overwhelming majorities of the people who voted to say that they believe marriage is between a man and a woman.

George, what we've done - let me just ask people on the left. If we get a future court that is conservative and that conservative court decides that this was a mistake and we're going to go back to traditional marriage and we're also going to say that every unborn people is in fact a person and is - is absolutely guaranteed due process and therefore we would strike down the idea of abortion from conception forward, is the left going to be OK to let the Supreme Court make that decision?

STEPHANOPOULOS: So let me - let me ask you this.

HUCKABEE: Because based on the response this week, I think they have to say, yes, that's fine when five lawyers on the Supreme Court make that decision, we're OK with it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: So, you're president today. Let's assume that for a second. Would you refuse to enforce this decision?

HUCKABEE: I would say when the Congress provides enabling legislation and the people's representatives vote and it gets to my desk, then we'll consider it. We've seen, though, something that is - I find very interesting. When the president lit up the White House the other night with rainbow colors, I guess that's his prerogative. If I become president, I just want to remind people that please don't complain if I were to put a nativity scene out during Christmas and say, you know, if it's my house, I get to do with it what I wish despite what other people around the country may feel about it.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me talk about the big decision -- issue of the week coming out of those killings in a church in South Carolina. We've seen a cascade of states and businesses across the country take down the Confederate flag, refuse to sell the image of the Confederate flag. What's your reaction to that?

HUCKABEE: I think South Carolina made a proper decision and the governor is to be commended for her leadership. She and Tim Scott and Lindsey Graham stepped up and said if this is hurting people, if this is an offense -- it's not worth it to be so divisive.

And I think it's important to note -- and I know this will cause a lot of angst, but it was Republicans who stepped up and made this happen. And let me give tribute to David Beasely, the Republican governor who back in the mid-90s also attempted to do this and essentially lost his reelection because of it.

And so when people talk about that Republicans don't care about race, I find that incredibly not only offensive, but George I find it just wrongheaded.

STEPHANOPOULOS: But actually when you said President Obama...

HUCKABEE: ...in so many cases, whether it was Eisenhower or others, it was Republicans who were at the forefront of bringing civil rights.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You said when President Obama got elected that the GOP has done a pathetic job of reaching out to people of color. Do you think that's changing now. You just pointed out some examples of where it may be. And what did you make of President Obama's eulogy in South Carolina?

HUCKABEE: Well, I think so much of it was brilliant. And by the way he has a wonderful voice, so post-presidential -- I see a recording contract in his future.

You know, there were times when I think he strayed into more of a political agenda rather than a true eulogy. I presided at a lot of funerals 30 years ago and before, and I never used it as an occasion to do anything other than to focus on the person and the qualities of that person who was deceased, and not to make it a time of cause.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Governor Mike Huckabee, thanks for joining us this morning.

HUCKABEE: Thank you, George.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And let's get reaction to this remarkable week now from Matthew Dowd, our ABC political analyst. What a momentous few days.

MATTHEW DOWD, ABC POLITICAL ANALYST: Unbelievably significant and meaningful, almost as a throwback to a lot of the change that happened in the 60s. The fact that one flag came down and another flag went up, which is the rainbow flag across the country. I don't think we can underestimate the meaning of it.

But I also think it's important to keep in mind it's a moment. And there is still unbelievable amount of divisions as we could hear from Mike Huckabee's interview that exist in America. And I think the raising of one flag and the lowering of another hasn't solved those divisions that still exist in this country.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Ken Blackwell, former Ohio secretary of state, also member of the board of the Family Research Council, you agree with that.

BLACKWELL: I think it was dramatic week, and a change is almost transformational. Overnight, grandmothers and aunts and uncle and mothers and dads who believe in the bible and who believe in their Christian teachings are going to be deemed bigots, going to be deemed as standing in the way of a recognition of other's humanity, I think that's sad.

We've change -- we've amended our constitution 27 times in a very deliberate process. I think that we, in fact, should have let that process work out and the courts should not have, in fact, legislated from the bench.


ROBERTS: I thought that the images of the week were just striking. Sitting in front of the president as he made that extraordinary eulogy with an Indian American governor of the state of South Carolina and the African-American senator from the state of South Carolina, both Republicans by the way, and the other image that really struck me was of a couple getting married in Hattiesburg, Mississippi where it was a female preacher and an African-American woman and a white woman kissing each other on the steps of the church. Those are images Americans have -- all of those images are images Americans have never seen before, and show that the country is a very, very different country than the one we grew up in.

STEPHANOPOULOS: A lot of change to absorb.

BRAZILE: A watershed moment. As someone who grew up in the segregated deep south during the height of the civil rights movement, it was a watershed moment in our history and I think in our journey toward equal justice under the law.

Now George, there's been many days I've walked past the Supreme Court and looked at those words and just turned my head. Today, I can look at those words and feel that it applies to all Americans, no exceptions.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Donna Brazile, thanks very much. You're all going to be back later in the program.

Up next here, after those horrific terror attacks Friday, new terror warnings here at home.

And Bernie Sanders is rising fast in the race against Hillary. Can he sustain the surge? He's live from New Hampshire this morning.


STEPHANOPOULOS: Up next, a tense weekend around the world. ISIS looking to strike again. Homeland officials on high alert for Independence Day. Pierre Thomas, Congressman Peter King here with all the latest.


STEPHANOPOULOS: In THIS WEEK'S Closer Look, those three horrific terror attacks on three continents all heading Friday just hours apart. This morning, the U.S. terror level the highest in years. And with officials tense about an Independence Day strike on the homeland, ABC's Pierre Thomas takes us inside the aggressive push to capture extremists at home.


PIERRE THOMAS, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): The first strike in France -- a man crashing his delivery van at an American-owned chemical plant, setting off an explosion. His boss beheaded.

Two hours later, in Kuwait, a Shiite mosque acquitted by a suicide bomber -- 27 killed, hundreds wounded.

Then in Tunisia, a bloody massacre -- a gunman mowing down tourists at a beach resort -- 39 dead.

ABC's Bob Woodruff is on the scene.

BOB WOODRUFF, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Now, the witnesses now tell us that the killer began right in that corner. He came with his rifle. He was so nervous, they said, and seemed to be shaking. Then he opened fire over here, killing people sitting in their chairs.

Then he moved on to the pool, killed many, many more.

THOMAS: ISIS has claimed responsibility for the attacks in Kuwait and Tunisia, and here at home, U.S. officials deeply concerned about the potential for an ISIS-inspired attack as we approach the Fourth of July celebrations.

In the last 48 hours, a bulletin sent out to 18,000 law enforcement agencies urging vigilance.

The reason?

An unprecedented social media campaign by ISIS targeting thousands here at home.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: ISIL has spent about a year investing in trying to reach troubled minds in the United States through social media, to either recruit them to come to their so-called caliphate to fight or to kill where they stand.

THOMAS: In response, the FBI is conducting a broad campaign targeting suspected radicals. Seven arrests in the last two weeks alone. Among them, a college student from Queens, who they say had been conducting surveillance on the George Washington Bridge.

The FBI says Munther Omar Saleh was studying how to build a pressure cooker bomb like those used in the Boston Marathon attacks.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think the threat is the most significant we've faced since the September 11th attacks.

THOMAS: Sources tell ABC News the threat has evolved, made clear that Garland, Texas assault, when two men drove hundreds of miles to allegedly commit mass murder against the cartoon contest depicting the Prophet Muhammad, a seminal moment, the suspects apparently willing to die for their cause after being recruited primarily, if not solely, online.


STEPHANOPOULOS: And Pierre joins us now, along with Congressman Peter King, the chair of the House Subcommittee on Counterterrorism.

And Pierre, let me begin with you.

You talk about Garland being a senimal -- a seminal moment. Those two got through. But as you report, we're also seeing more arrests.

Is that because they believe there are more lone wolves or is -- is law enforcement getting more aggressive?

THOMAS: A combination of both. FBI is stepping up arrests across the country. They're not waiting for cases to fully mature. If they can build a case, they're going to bring you in right now.

The other thing is that this social media campaign by ISIS is a game-changer. I've never seen law enforcement as focused on one thing as they are now. ISIS is using that social media campaign to every day, this moment, send out messages to encourage people to do something wherever they are.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Every day, all around the world.

And, Congressman, this was a particularly tense moment. We've seen ISIS say, OK, we want to see attacks during the month of Ramadan, we want to see attacks to acknowledge this anniversary of the forming of the caliphate, which comes up on Monday, and, of course, Independence Day.

What are you hearing from your intelligence sources?

REP. PETER KING (R), NEW YORK: There's great concern. I would say there's probably more concern now than at any time since September 11th. And as you said, there are these lone wolf attacks. But ISIS, really, they have a multi-level sense of operation. It's not just the lone wolves. Also, there can be some coordination among these so-called lone wolves that are out there. That's why there is -- you saw Jeh Johnson, who I've got great regard for...

STEPHANOPOULOS: The Homeland Security secretary?

KING: The Homeland Security secretary put out the statement he had, talking about the Fourth of July. Generally, they don't put those statements out that far in advance, unless there's reason for concern.

So it's about the lone wolves and it's also the potential of a coordinated attack.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And what is the fact that we can see three somewhat coordinated attacks on Friday hours apart, even though -- even if the people weren't talking?

What does that say about the reach of ISIS?

KING: ISIS is incomparable as far as terrorist organizations, as far as being able to reach. They can reach the disaffected. They can reach the deranged. They can also reach the ideologically committed.

And so we see a whole soirees of attacks here in the US. You have police officers attacked with hatchets. You had the attacks in Garland, Texas. You had these arrests here in New York.

I mean it's no coincidence that you've seen a series of arrests here in New York of terrorists over the last week to 10 days. This is not just something that's happening by coincidence.

STEPHANOPOULOS: All of that is chilling. And, at the same time, I was struck by a "New York Times" report this week, Pierre, that pointed out a study by the New America Foundation, that said that since 9/11, nearly twice as many people have been killed by white supremacists and anti-government extremists as radical Muslims.

They also add a study from researchers at Duke University in North Carolina, which asked 382 police and sheriff's departments nationwide to rank the three biggest threats from violent extremism. About 74 percent listed anti-government violence, 39 percent al Qaeda-inspired violence.

THOMAS: Well, right now, the FBI has to worry about all of the above. But I think they were very concerned about the ISIS threat because of the violent, horrific nature of what could happen in the United States that would get exponential international coverage.

Just think of a lone wolf attacking a mall and you could have a situation similar to what you saw in France a few months ago.

KING: Yes, I -- I totally just -- disregarded what "The New York Times" said. The fact is, I -- I can't believe any (INAUDIBLE) law enforcement officer, looking at the potential of threats that are out there -- for instance, the Boston Marathon bombing, there were four killed. Almost 300 people were wounded. And the fact that in the -- that Eric Holder, who was a pretty liberal attorney general, said what kept him awake at night was the lone wolf Islamist terrorist who would carry out an attack.

There's no -- listen, every murder is horrible. There is no comparison between these white supremacists and an internationally coordinated movement which, if the attacks were not stopped, we could have thousands and thousands of deaths.

Just seven years ago, the attempted subway attacks here in New York would have killed hundreds, if not thousands, of people, if that were not intercepted.

So everything should be investigated, everything should be stopped. But to compare these deranged white supremacists with an organized international terrorist movement, that's "The New York Times" at its worst.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Peter King, Pierre Thomas, thanks very much.

KING: Thank you.


More roundtable, the Sunday Spotlight and the man closing fast on Hillary is up next. Bernie Sanders live from New Hampshire.


STEPHANOPOULOS: Bernie Sanders up next. He's drawing huge crowds, raising millions, rising in the polls. So how far can he go?


STEPHANOPOULOS: Look at the crowds coming out for our next guest. Nearly 5,000 there in Colorado. And that is not all, so many headlines right now for Hillary Clinton's top challenger, Senator Bernie Sanders. He joins us now from Cochran, New Hampshire this morning. Senator, thank you for joining us this morning.

We looked at the Keene Sentinel. They say you're up with a crowd in Keene, New Hampshire just the other day. And you told them, let me tell you a secret, we're going to win New Hampshire. Care to repeat that prediction now?

BERNIE SANDERS, 2016 DEMOCRATIC PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We are going to win New Hampshire. We're going to win Iowa and I think we're going to win the Democratic nomination, and I think we're going to win the presidency. And I'll tell you why, the American people are sick and tired of seeing the disappearance of the great middle class of this country. They're sick and tired of working longer hours for low wages while at the same time 99 percent of all new income generated is going to the top 1 percent and the top one-tenth-of-one-percent now owns almost as much wealth as the bottom 90 percent.

George, we have seen in the last 30 years a massive shift of wealth and income from ordinary Americans to the very richest people in this country and the American people are saying enough is enough. We need to create an economy that works for all of us and not just a handful of billionaires.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Rising in the polls, that means you're drawing fire as well, particularly in your record on guns. A super PAC allied with Martin O'Malley put out a video this week. And here is part of it.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Sanders voted against the Brady Bill?

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And Bernie Sanders voted against gun manufacturers' protection from victim law suits?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: The NRA even paid for ads attacks a Sanders opponents.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Bernie Sanders is no progressive when it comes to guns.


STEPHANOPOULOS: I saw you smiling when it was being played. What's your response?

SANDERS: Well, I think the people of Vermont know differently. They know in every single race that I have run, with the exception of one, the NRA and the gun lobbies and the people who are most interested in guns supported my opponent. I have a lifetime voting record with the NRA somewhere between D and F. Coming from a state that has virtually no gun control at all.

I cast what I think was a pretty brave vote banning assault weapons, doing away with the gun show loophole and fighting for instant background checks so that we make sure that guns do not fall in the hands of those people who should not have it. So, it's a strong record.

But let me tell you this, George, in terms of gun control, if we are finally going to have any serious success, what we need to do is bridge this cultural divide between rural America -- and I represent the very rural state -- and urban America and come up with some common sense legislation which includes everything that I've just voted for and may be more.

But one thing we can't have, we can't have people demagoguing against folks just because they go out and hunt and they own guns. On the other hand, rural America has got to understand that guns in Vermont are not the same thing as guns in Chicago where they're used to kill kids or shoot at police officers.

So I think we need a national dialogue. And frankly, coming from a state that has virtually gun control, but having voted time and time and time again for strong gun control, I think I'm in a position to make that happen.

STEPHANOPOULOS: You also come from a state, I believe, that is about 95 percent white as well. And we have a great racial divide in this country as well. And it -- a poll out this week showed how this might be affecting you and your potential race right now. It asked for support among non-whites. This was a "Wall Street Journal"/NBC News poll. It said Clinton has 91 percent, Bernie Sanders just three. How do you close that gap?

SANDERS: Well, I'll tell you how you do that, George. You know, as somebody who has been involved in the civil rights movement for my entire adult life. I was arrested when I was a student protesting segregation of schools in Chicago, fought against segregated housing in Chicago, marched with Martin Luther King Jr. in the great march on Washington.

I have a long history in fighting for civil rights. I understand that many people in the African-American community may not understand that. But I think the issues that we are dealing with, combating 51 percent African-American youth unemployment, talking about the need that public colleges and universities should be tuition free, raising the minimum wage to $15 an hour, creating millions of jobs by rebuilding our infrastructure. These are issues that should apply to every American.

But to be honest with you, given the disparity that we're seeing in income and wealth in this country, it applies even more to the African-American community and to the Hispanic community. And what we are going to do is make a major outreach effort to those communities, let people know my background, let people know my record, and I think we're going to do just fine in those communities.

STEPHANOPOULOS: How -- how about the issue of health care coming out of the Supreme Court case, saving Obamacare for the second time. The Supreme Court led by Chief Justice John Roberts. You've consistently called for a single payer system, Medicare for everyone. Now, if you were president, would you continue to fight for that and is that responsible -- would it be a more effective use of your time and energy, presidential resources, to actually strengthen the Obamacare that is already in place?

SANDERS: Well, let me just say this. You know, I have not been a great fan of the Supreme Court. Their decision on Citizens United, opening up the opportunity for billionaires to buy elections will go down in history as one of the worse decisions ever made. But applaud them for the two decisions they made this week on the Affordable Care Act and on gay marriage.

In terms of the Affordable Care Act, I'm on the committee that helped write that bill. This was really a no-brainer. Nobody thought that we should look at the exchanges -- the federal exchanges any differently than state exchanges. But here's the point, today, despite the gains of the Affordable Care Act, which is certainly voted for, we still have 35 million Americans without any health insurance and many more who are under insured. Meanwhile, we end up spending almost twice as much per capita on health care as do the people of any other country.

So I do believe, George, that we need to join the rest of the industrialized world. We are the only major country on earth that doesn't guarantee health care to all people as a right and yet we end up spending much more than they do. So I do believe that we have to move toward a Medicare for all, single payer system. I think it's not going to happen tomorrow, but that certainly should be the goal.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, so you said right at the top of this interview, you're going to be the next president of the United States. If that's true, you'll be the oldest president ever elected, 75 years old on Election Day, I believe. What do you say to people who might be concerned about your age?

SANDERS: Well, why don't you follow me around this weekend in New Hampshire where we're doing seven separate events and understand that thank God I -- I am blessed with -- with very good health. I don't think I've taken a day off because of sickness in -- in several years. So I believe as somebody who has -- when he was a kid, a long distance runner, I'm blessed with endurance, I'm blessed with health, and we are going to do everything that we can, A, to win this campaign, and, B, as good a president as I possibly can be.

STEPHANOPOULOS: And I know you're going to be back on the campaign trail this afternoon. Senator Sanders, thanks so much for joining us this morning.

SANDERS: Thank you.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Up next, the roundtable is back with more debate on an historic week. What does it mean for the White House race and why does Donald Trump have everyone on edge.



RONALD REAGAN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: Judge Kennedy is what in many in recent weeks have referred to as a true conservative. One who believes that our constitutional system is one of enumerated powers, that it is "we the people" who have granted certain rights to the government, not the other way around, and that unless the Constitution grants a power to the federal government or restricts a state's exercise of that power, it remains with the states or the people.


STEPHANOPOULOS: President Reagan nominating Anthony Kennedy back in 1987. He authored that momentous decision this week.

We're back with the roundtable again right now.

And, Donna Brazile, let me begin with you because we heard Ken Blackwell in the last roundtable talk about how he felt the Supreme Court short-circuited the democratic process right there. That is echoing ever single dissent at the Supreme Court.

DONNA BRAZILE, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Well, George, the Supreme Court may have short-circuited, but it was the right decision based on after the appellate court. And you saw a court -- state after state, over the last two years, began to grant marriage equality.

This is a moment, as I mentioned before, a watershed moment. And there's no question that the Supreme Court, Justice Kennedy and perhaps others, finally applied the law as it should have stood for the -- for the -- for the entire time. I'm glad that we have moved past this issue and now we have to fight other battles.


ROBERTS: Also -- also, George, though, that's the -- that's the role of the Supreme Court is -- is to, at times, take over from the elective process and say, we have something beyond that, which is the Constitution of the United States. If we had depended on majority rule, we wouldn't have gotten to the civil rights place where we are today. It requires the court saying that there are certain rights regardless of what the majority of the voters think. And that's what happened in -

STEPHANOPOULOS: And the division, Justice Roberts said it wasn't in the Constitution at all.


BLACKWELL: Right, but there wasn't anything in the Constitution. No one has a right to redefine marriage, a definition that has been in existence for over 2,500 years.

The reality is this. The court did cert -- asset -- cut short the democratic process. And the reason that people are getting in a big uproar is because if you actually want change that is accepted by the folks, then, in fact, use that process.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me bring this -

BLACKWELL: You don't create a right that's not in -- in the Constitution.


BLACKWELL: The Constitution lost this week.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Another division created here, Matthew Dowd, I thought between the Republican candidates for president, pretty striking. You had the candidates like Jeb Bush, Marco Rubio, John Kasich saying, listen, we don't like the decision but it's the law of the land right now. We just saw Governor Mike Huckabee, Ted Cruz and others calling for resistance, calling for a constitutional amendment.

DOWD: Yes, I think the -- the folks that are basically trying -- they're saying that the Supreme Court basically should be abolished are just off of where our Constitution is. This is a system of government where people vote, they elect officials. We have a Supreme Court. The Supreme Courts gets to decide what's in the Constitution. You may not like it and you may not agree with it, but that's the Constitution.

What I think is amazing about this moment is, first, is that a week ago this -- liberals said this is a conservative court -


DOWD: That makes political decisions. Today, the conservatives say, this is a liberal court that makes political decisions. And in the end, the interesting thing about this is the country led on this issue.


ROBERTS: Absolutely right.

BRAZILE: That's right.

ROBERTS: Absolutely right.

DOWD: And the court did. Two -- nearly two-thirds of the country are support -- 60 percent of the country supports gay marriage. Twice as many people support gay marriage as they did when the court decided interracial marriage -- banning interracial marriage was wrong.

ROBERTS: And that took decades, that took decades...

DOWD: And if you look at Hillary Clinton, and this is my fault that I have with Hillary Clinton and Barack Obama and Bill Clinton or anybody else speaking about this, is that they're criticizing now the people of faith who say I object to this when they basically -- their evolution on this issue was of recent and of a political vintage.

ROBERTS: I must say, though, Kennedy's final statement in his decision is something that every married couple should read, and everybody contemplating marriage should read regardless of their sexuality.

"In forming a marital union, two people become something greater than once they were."

BLACKWELL: He became the -- what, theologian-in-chief there. I mean, that's sort of ridiculous on its face.

Look, at the end of the...

ROBERTS: You don't think that people become better in marriage?

BLACKWELL: I'm saying that...

DOWD: He actually has a conservative view of marriage.


ROBERTS: Exactly.

BLACKWELL: The Kennedy -- the left should be celebrating today is Teddy Kennedy, because he in fact blocked an originalist from being on the Supreme Court, Robert Bork. And at the end of the day it is a clash of how you view the constitution, do you see it as being malleable and that the theologian-in-chief can change? Or do you see it where the people have a voice in it, and that's what I'm objecting to. And I think a lot of folks are objecting to is that the people got cut out of this process.

ROBERTS: And Donna...

BRAZILE: How long have people been cut out of the process, because the constitution denied them basic human rights, basic living rights, basic justice and rights...


BRAZILE: So, it has been a living document. It's been amended.

BLACKWELL: 27 times there's been a process -- 27 times there's been a process. That process got short circuited.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Ken Blackwell says that Anthony Kennedy is theologian-in-chief, one of the things we saw, and I think liberals have to accept, is John Roberts on the health care case was true to his hearings where he said he was going to be basically umpire-in-chief as chief justice.

DOWD: Well, for all the criticism that Justice Roberts interestingly has gotten from both sides over the course of 24 hours on this, is he is actually maintained his position, which was of judicial restraint. He did it his belief -- his belief that there was no part of the constitution that said that you can't ban gay marriage, so he did it there.

And he actually did it -- he gave deference to the legislative process in the Obamacare decision, where he basically said, yeah, there was a screw up on some words, but the process -- and this is basically what they said.

But again, people don't want an objective justice anymore. They want a partisan justice. They want a justice that's going to go along with this position based upon whether or not they find it or can discover it in the constitution.

ROBERTS: I think he also cares deeply about the court, and about the reputation of the court. And I think that the fact is that even though gay marriage has got more people upset and delighted, depending on the point of view, health care would have affected millions of people in their day-to-day lives. And the practicality of that would have reflected -- the impracticality of that would have reflected badly on the court.

STEPHANOPOULOS: This is going to make a difference in so many lives, both decisions, I think that's right. But Donna, on some of the politics here, I wonder, you know, Democrats celebrating this week President Obama celebrating could have been his best week.

ROBERTS: With a lot of help from Republicans.

STEPHANOPOULOS: With a lot of help from Republicans -- well, but I wonder if the Supreme Court has actually done the eventual Republican nominee for president a favor by pushing these issues a little bit more to the side?

BRAZILE: I think for Jeb Bush and perhaps for Marco Rubio and others who understand they have to -- if they win the nomination they have to face a much larger electorate, perhaps it did.

But I think on the Republican side, they're going to relitigate this. They're going to work themselves up in a frenzy. they're going to look backward and inward. And I think it's going to eventually destroy and hurt the nominee.


BLACKWELL: I don't think so.

Look, at the end of the day the primary process is about listening to the people and showing them that you can be a standard bearer for them. This Supreme Court decision is yet to be played out in local communities. Curriculums of public school systems will be changed to get in alignment with that. That's going to force some real decisions to be made by parents.

Look, this is -- bakers, photographers, folks who hold deeply religious convictions are going to be seeing their religious liberty at risk. We have...



BRAZILE: ...and it's compatible of civil rights law.

BLACKWELL: Folks are litigating right now. A photographer who says I don't want to take pictures at a gay wedding is in fact being litigated....

STEPHANOPOULOS: But Matthew, if Ken is right about that's where the energy is inside the Republican primary electorate, what does it mean going forward for the nominee?

DOWD: Well, I think if you -- on one aspect of this, it could help the eventual Republican nominee only if they're able to basically bridge the divide that exists between people that see America as a pluralistic system and then people of faith. And I think part of the problem that we've had here today is the people of faith don't feel respected in where they sit and where they stand. And the people that are on the pluralistic side don't feel a sense of compassion and understanding from the people of faith in this country.

And until we figure out...

STEPHANOPOULOS: How do you bridge that?

DOWD: Well, I think -- I think part of this -- part of the candidate to emerge -- and I don't actually see one right now on the Republican side, and I don't see one on the Democratic side. This is not only a Republican problem, the divisions that exist in America, as your interview with Bernie Sanders just showed, there's tremendous divisions in the Democratic side.

ROBERTS: Actually, this is a great opportunity for Hillary Clinton. This is the place -- because she is a person of faith, and she really could be the person to articulate exactly what you're saying.

And the truth is, what you're going to see is in the debates -- the Republican debates, which are going to be great fun for us -- is going to be everybody trying to outdo...


DOWD: Wait a second, I agree that Hillary could do it, but her statements in the last 72 hours are nothing even close to that. She should have stood -- in my view, George, she should have stood up and said, listen, I evolved recently on this issue just like many other people in this country have evolved in this issue. And we should -- the time and the space that I needed to evolve on this issue we should give to other people, good intentioned people of faith who have not yet evolved. Give them time and space.

BLACKWELL: They all have the opportunity.

But tell me, we have a right to belief. We don't have just a right to worship, we have a right in this country to carry our beliefs in our day-to-day activities in the public square.

So, if in fact you believe in natural marriage as a union between a man and a woman and you live that out that's how you're going to -- children is taught in the public school system what happens to you?

STEPHANOPOULOS: Donna, before we go, I want to reflect everyone on that -- the events coming out of South Carolina as well, seeing all the flags come down, capped by that eulogy from President Obama on Friday.

BRAZILE: What a moment, George. And today we bury yet another soul -- and two more will be buried over the next couple of days.

You know, over the last couple of weeks, the president I think was at real pain to try to figure out how to eulogize someone that he knew. But his remarks were basically about grace, about not just the moment, but feeling the pain and anguish of that community and knowing that he could bring healing through his own words.

I never thought I would see a president, let alone this one. I've known many who could preach the gospel, knew the sermons, but to actually sing a song that has so much meaning...


BLACKWELL: ...James Cleveland.


DOWD: And the greatest power we saw over the course over the last week in my view going to this healing was not the president, it was the people in that room that basically faced the people that killed their relatives and said I forgive you. I'm going to show you love instead of hate. That to me is the most powerful message that came out of...

STEPHANOPOULOS: That was grace in action.

ROBERTS: Exactly.

I was in South Carolina for all of this, and many white people came up to me and said we're in pain, we're in terrible pain.

But I was also, because I was with grandchildren, at a water park, and there were the South Carolina public school buses and getting out of them were campers totally integrated camps, totally integrated camp counselors, taking care of these kids in a water park in South Carolina. That's the real change that's happened in America.

STEPHANOPOULOS: Can this be a moment of racial healing?

BLACKWELL: I think so. We all need to drink from the well of the families of those nine victims. They, in fact, show what true Christian ethics and love is about.

And let me tell you, not all of us can get there, not all of us are there, but all of us need to get there. And that's the only way that we're going to be able to create a beloved community that Dr. King talked about.

STEPHANOPOULOS: What an example they set. Thank you all very much.

And when we come back, we're going to have one artist's remarkable mission in our Sunday Spotlight, it comes after this from our ABC stations.


STEPHANOPOULOS: In our Sunday Spotlight, an artist promoting peace and understanding by thinking inside the box. Amar Bakshi and his fellow artists at Shared City is our transforming ordinary shipping containers into extraordinary instruments of global communication. ABC's John Donvan checked it out.


JOHN DONVAN, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: In a square in the middle of Washington, D.C. there is a box. And what's in that box, the world. Well, not really. But, yes really, in a way, because this guy I'm talking to, he's in Afghanistan, in Hirat 7,000 miles from Washington where there is another box just like mine and he is in it, which puts us, well, somewhere where it feels remarkably as if we're in the same room talking, which is what we did. I saw him, he saw me.

His name is Omi (ph). He's a college professor.

And you are in Hirat?


DONVAN: I was there back in 1988.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: It has really changed.

DONVAN: Now these boxes, actually gold painted shipping containers, are multiplying. There's one in Iran's capital Tehran, and another in Havana, Cuba.

All of this organized, designed really, by an American artist by Amar Bakshi who calls them portals.

AMAR BAKSHI, ARTIST: You don't know if you're going to go in there and speak to a 85-year-old professor, or an 18-year-old who just works down the block.

DONVAN: Because that's what happens. Random people, whoever signs up online, gets to step inside the portal and talk to a stranger from far away.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are in Washington, D.C. right now?

BAKSHI: I mean, we have people coming in who have not spoken to someone of the opposite gender in a room before. They do it here. And it's OK, because well it's not the same room.

DONVAN: Everyone we talked to who tried it -- Sina Bazir (ph) talking to a student from Iran, and this trio of friends also talking to Iran, and Angelina Feldman (ph) made a friend.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We had a lot in common.

DONVAN: They found the experience meaningful, or moving, or both.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's no way that you're not going to learn something new.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Talking to him is like talking to my little cousin.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: It felt like we were right, you know, just across from each other.

DONVAN: People have danced together, and sung together. Politics tends not to come up. Not surprising given some of the repressive regimes involved. What does come up a lot, however...

BAKSHI: Is marriage and dating. I mean, like America's dating life is a real fascination.

DONVAN: The connection with plans to get to portal to New Haven, Nashville and New York, that's what Amar wants to create.

BAKSHI: They're taking 20 minutes in a space to do nothing but admire, appreciate, dislike another human being as a piece of art.

DONVAN: In this space...

It was a pleasure.

DONVAN: That is no place...

How do we shake hands here?

So it's anyplace.

Take care.

And maybe every place.

For this week, John Donvan, ABC News, Washington.


STEPHANOPOULOS: And it all comes down to dating. I love that.

Thanks to John Donvan for that. That is all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out World News Tonight. And I'll see you tomorrow on GMA.