-- THIS IS A RUSH TRANSCRIPT FOR 'THIS WEEK' on November 13, 2016 and it will be updated.
ABC THIS WEEK
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DONALD TRUMP (R), PRESIDENT-ELECT: I love this country.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: After a stunning victory.
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TRUMP: And I look forward to being with you many, many more times (INAUDIBLE).
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: A president-elect who's never served in office prepares to be commander-in-chief.
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TRUMP: We will build a great wall. We are going to drain the swamp.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Will he keep his campaign promises?
How will he separate his business interests from the Oval Office?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Can he unite a divided nation?
Plus, after a crushing loss...
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: -- how will Democrats redefine their path forward?
We ask the congressman vying to lead the party, Keith Ellison.
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TRUMP: Now it's time for America to bind the wounds of division.
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UNIDENTIFIED MALE: With the country struggling to unite, what happens next?
From ABC News, it's THIS WEEK.
Here now, chief anchor, George Stephanopoulos.
GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS, HOST: Good morning.
Soon it will be his office, his home.
(voice-over): And as America wrestles with what happened and what's next, the first answers from that famous Fifth Avenue skyscraper, where our future government is taking shape.
Protected by a no-fly zone, surrounded by protesters, Trump Tower is buzzing with intensity. The president-elect's family, loyalist advisers and wannabes all jockeying for position. And the man at the center, soon to be the world's most powerful, now shoulders the hopes and dreams of millions of Americans, the fear and anxiety of millions more.
TRUMP: It is time for us to come together as one united people.
STEPHANOPOULOS: From his moment of victory, a kinder, gentler Donald Trump -- praise for the opponent he promised to jail.
TRUMP: We owe her a major debt of gratitude for her service to our country.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Deference to the president whose legitimacy he questioned.
TRUMP: Mr. President, it was a great honor being with you and I look forward to being with you many, many more times in the future. Thank you, sir.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Respect for the Republican leaders he denounced.
TRUMP: I think we're going to do some absolutely spectacular things for the American people.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But away from the rituals of Washington, alongside the elation of Trump supporters, there is deep anxiety, anger and fear.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Protests four nights running.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You are under arrest.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Thousands marching across the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: White power!
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STEPHANOPOULOS: So how will a President Trump bind those wounds rubbed so raw by this campaign?
Which promises will he keep?
Which will fall away?
And how will Congress, the country, the world, respond to this earth-shaking change?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Secretary Clinton has conceded to Donald Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Donald Trump will be the 45th president.
STEPHANOPOULOS: He has pulled off something that no one believed he could do.
WOLF BLITZER, CNN ANCHOR: Defeating Hillary Clinton in a campaign unlike anything we've seen in our lifetimes.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: And we're going to examine all those questions this morning, starting with the latest on the transition from our chief White House correspondent, Jonathan Karl; our chief global affairs anchor, Martha Raddatz; our chief investigative correspondent, Brian Ross.
And, John, let me begin with you.
I can tell you, George, that Congressional leaders on the Republican side are hoping it is Priebus. They see Priebus as somebody who they can clearly work with.
But conservative activists, Tea Party activists, are threatening Donald Trump that if he chooses Reince Priebus, he will lose much of his base of support. They are telling him not to do that. They want Bannon, somebody who has spent much of the past two years trying to destroy speaker of the House, Paul Ryan.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And who knows?
He may surprise us and pick someone else.
But as you say, the decision is imminent.
It sort of gets to the broader question, as well, of now that the Republicans control -- will control the White House and both houses of Congress, where does President Trump defer to those Republican leaders, where does he take them on?
KARL: Well, the Republican leadership is quite hopeful at this time that they will have wide latitude. Trump is a big visionary guy, not a detail guy, obviously. They are preparing to charge ahead with a Republican, a conservative agenda that Paul Ryan talked about a lot on the campaign trail.
Of course, again, a lot of that will depend on who the person is on Trump's, you know, right hand side, whether it's Bannon or whether it's Priebus.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Not too many clues from Trump himself in this first week. He mentioned infrastructure. He mentioned immigration and jobs. And then on ObamaCare, he says he both wants to replace it and repeal it, but talked about preserving those -- the pre-existing condition ban and this idea that kids can stay on their adult plan -- on their parents' plan until the age of 26.
KARL: Yes. From the conservatives, the -- the battle cry for the last couple of years, especially from people like Ted Cruz, was repeal ObamaCare, every single word of ObamaCare. That is not the message from Donald Trump.
And on infrastructure, there's a potential for him to reach out to Democrats. He's talking about infrastructure spending far in excess of what any Republicans would have considered under a Democratic president.
So you have some mixed signals.
The other thing I would add to that list, George, I am told that very early on in this transition process, to expect that Trump will announce his nominee for the Supreme Court. That will be something designed to very much please conservatives, even as they may get a little nervous on some of what he's talking about in terms of ObamaCare and infrastructure.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Jon, thanks.
Let's move on to national security now with Martha Raddatz.
And personnel is going to matter so much here, as well.
Our next guest, Rudy Giuliani, talked about, possibly, as secretary of State. You've got this general, Mike Flynn, who is a loyalist, considered for national security adviser, perhaps.
But also talk about some establishment figures like George W. Bush's national security adviser, Steve Hadley, for Department of Defense.
MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Steve Hadley, that -- that's a -- that's an outlier, for sure. But he's very experienced. He may be national security adviser, but I -- I think that would be a hard choice for Mr. Trump to make -- President-elect Trump to make -- because General Flynn he's very comfortable with. And you know in that position, you have to be very comfortable with someone like that whispering in your ear about national security.
So I think General Flynn is probably the top contender for that job. Secretary of State, maybe they would consider Steve Hadley for that job. Some -- Richard Haas...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Head of The Council on Foreign Relations.
RADDATZ: -- head of The Council on Foreign Relations and certainly an administration official many years ago under George H.W. Bush.
But I think all of these things, George, there are always names floated -- Newt Gingrich's name is out there. Sometimes you just want to make the loyalists happy by floating those names.
I think this will play out over the next several weeks.
But obviously, this is a huge decision. This is where he has the least experience and will have to rely on people with experience.
STEPHANOPOULOS: He has made some major promises, as well. He said he would rip up the Iran nuclear agreement and renegotiate NAFTA.
RADDATZ: Well, I -- I think they would really like to rip up that agreement and get a new one, but that's going to be very difficult. You, of course, have Russia involved in that.
And I think the question is, what do they do in the meantime?
I listened this week, Rick Grenell, who is an old U.N. hand, talk on Fox News about really pressing to see if the Iranians are violating any of the terms of the agreement, really press them on that, make sure there is full compliance.
So I think you'll see that in the coming months, immediately, that they will just talk tougher.
NAFTA and other things awfully (INAUDIBLE).
STEPHANOPOULOS: We've got American advisers on the ground...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- in Iraq and Syria. Trump suggesting to "The Wall Street Journal" that he would stop aiding the rebels fighting Assad.
A comfort to Putin there.
RADDATZ: A comfort to Putin there. And -- and again, so what does he do?
President-elect Trump has promised a safe zone, a humanitarian zone.
Do you put U.S. troops on the ground?
Do you try to get other troops on the ground?
And he's also promised an intelligence surge. Mike Flynn knows a lot about that. Tactically, Mike Flynn has been fantastic with intelligence when he was in the military. They'll be looking at that.
But if you have really good intelligence, that truly does put the -- I mean putting troops on the ground in some way.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let's move on to the legal issues now with Brian Ross.
Forty-five hundred outstanding lawsuits now for Donald Trump, including Trump University in court this week.
BRIAN ROSS, ABC CORRESPONDENT: That's right, George. Well, he was a major real estate developer and they sue and get sued all the time.
And of those hundreds of lawsuits, we're told 30 are significant. There's pressure for him to settle that suit before he goes into the office. That could happen. as well as, we know, as a real estate developer, he has hundreds of millions of dollars in debt, in loans. He borrows money for all -- from all kinds of people around the world, including more than $100 million from a German bank now under federal investigation.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Questions also about his business. He has said it's going to be given to his children to run.
At the same time, we saw his children appointed this week to formal roles in the transition. A lot of ethics experts looking at that and saying that there is not a blind trust.
ROSS: Experts on both sides, both parties say that, George, that he's going to turn over the operation to his three children, Donald Jr., Eric and Ivanka. That's not a blind trust. According to experts we talked to, they're involved now in choosing the next government.
It's really a situation that no other president had in years and years. He clearly is not going to follow the idea that -- generally there is no rule that requires this but there generally is a situation which people are required to put their interests to the side so they don't have a conflict.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yes, all recent presidents have done that. But as you point out, the president is exempt from the conflict of interest rules that all other administrations must -- administration officials must abide by.
ROSS: Right. It's a common practice but not required by law.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, Brian Ross, Martha, thank you very much, Jon Karl as well.
Let's move on now to a top Trump adviser and vice chair of the transition, Rudy Giuliani.
Mr. Mayor, thank you for joining us this morning. Congratulations on the victory.
So is this true? You want to be Secretary of State?
RUDY GIULIANI, FMR. MAYOR OF NYC: Whatever I want to be, I’ll discuss with the president-elect, because that’s the best way to do it, not to create more rumors. So that’s between him and me, but I’m happy to answer any other question.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, well, I’ll just do one follow-up on that. You’ve also be mentioned as a possible Attorney General. Is it fair to say that you would like to serve President Trump?
GIULIANI: Again, that’s a discussion I’d like to have with him. I mean, I’m very happy in my law practice and my security firm. I work all over the world. I have a very, very full life. So it would have to be something where I felt he really needed me and -- not that I’d be the only one that could do it, but maybe that I could do it a little bit different or a little bit better than somebody else.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let’s follow up on some of his other campaign promises. President-Elect Trump has not ruled out seeking a special prosecutor for Hillary Clinton, says he has other priorities. Do you think it would be a good idea to go forward with that?
GIULIANI: That’s a tough one, George, it really is. It’s -- as a lawyer, I hate to use the "on the one hand, but the other", but on the one hand, you don’t want to disrupt the nation with what might look like a vindictive prosecution, even though it might not be. On the other hand, you want equal justice under the law and if she has violated the law -- you know, the FBI never completed the Foundation investigation. That’s, as far as I know, that’s still an ongoing investigation. They completed the e-mail investigation, but not the Foundation investigation.
Exactly what you do with that, I guess the next Attorney General is going to have to figure that out. I don’t know if that will be me or not, but the next Attorney General would have to figure that out. And I’m going to make a guess, not a definitive statement, I would think if you had to make a decision like that, you’d give it -- you’d give that to an independent counsel. You wouldn’t make it as the appointee of the new president.
We have a lot of precedence for that; we’ve done that in the past. Or maybe that you want to sort of put that behind you. I don’t know, that’s -- that’s a tough decision.
STEPHANOPOULOS: We saw -- we saw Secretary --
GIULIANI: So I could see why --
STEPHANOPOULOS: Sorry, I was going to say we saw Secretary Clinton reported that she believes that she would’ve won the election but for the interference of the FBI director James Comey. Your response to that?
GIULIANI: Well, you know, I actually think it was ObamaCare. Again, who -- why you won an election and why you didn’t is a subject of, you know, books that get written 20 years later. And being part of the campaign, we put up front in all of Donald Trump’s speeches for the last two or three weeks not the FBI but ObamaCare. That seems to me to be the thing that moved the votes in -- in Michigan, that moved the votes in places where we otherwise -- Pennsylvania, Wisconsin. The blue states we were able to turn red and basically haven’t been red since Ronald Reagan. I think ObamaCare was the bigger hit, the fact that those premiums hit on Nov -- what was it, November 1, right?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Such a closely divided election; Secretary Clinton won the popular votes. In those three states you just mentioned -- Michigan, Pennsylvania, Wisconsin -- about 112,000 votes separated the two candidates as well.
STEPHANOPOULOS: So how much of a mandate does President-Elect Trump have coming out of this close result?
GIULIANI: You have the same mandate whether it’s a close result or -- you’re the President of the United States, you have to act like the President of the United States. You’re the person in charge. You have to set the agenda. That’s how you get yourself reelected by a much bigger number, if you want to get reelected. And that’s the way you govern the country. I mean, the Constitution of the United States doesn’t change the powers of the president based on the number by which you get elected.
And he has a pretty sizable electoral map win, much more than anybody thought. I think people thought that if he won, he’d win by one state the way that President Bush did. I mean, he won by a sizable margin. I even believe he won a little after -- after the election rethinking, I think if we’d spent a little more time in Minnesota, we would’ve won Minnesota.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You see a lot of anger in the streets this week, demonstrations every night since the election. I know you call the protesters crybabies earlier in the week, but you’ve also seen this spate of incidents, racially-charged incidents, across the country right now. What should President-Elect Trump do to get that under control?
GIULIANI: Well, you know, first of all, I -- I do have to ask the following: I feel very bad about that. But if those were Donald Trump people doing that after a Hillary Clinton election, I think a lot of people be -- a lot of that -- there would be a lot more anger in the media at the fact that they’re protesting a legitimately decided election.
Having said that, I think we understand their frustration. We certainly don’t want to make it worse. I think they’re exaggerating the fears of a Donald Trump presidency because they’re coming off a campaign where they’re very disappointed. I’m sure our supporters would have been very disappointed had Donald Trump not won. And I just hope it calms down.
Now where it goes into violence, I have a zero tolerance for riots. I, you know, took over a city that had two riots in four years and I had none. And they knew they couldn’t riot on me. And when I saw the people on the street in New York City, I said to myself, you’re breaking Giuliani’s rules. You don’t take my streets. You can have my sidewalks, but you don’t take my streets, because ambulances have to get through there, fire trucks have to get through there. People die when you crowd the streets of New York City with protesters. You can do plenty of protesting on the sidewalk.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You know --
GIULIANI: I would ask them to please respect -- I’d ask them to please respect the democratic process. I know both Secretary Clinton and President Obama were very gracious and I respect that a lot in the way they handled it the day after, two days after. But I wish they would says something about it too. Because after all, these are supporters of President Obama and Hillary Clinton and maybe they could say something about this. Really not the right thing in the democracy.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Well they’ve said that everybody should maybe --
GIULIANI: President Obama --
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- said that everybody should root for the success of President-Elect Trump, but what about -- those are the protesters protesting President-Elect Trump. What about those Trump supporters out there and we’ve seen several incidents of this, with racially-charged intimidation of students and things like that? Doesn’t President-Elect Trump have some responsibility to say something about that?
GIULIANI: Well, they -- they shouldn’t be doing it either. But the major -- the major focus here is the -- at least the one -- I was in one a couple of days ago where they saw me in the car and they started banging, banging on my car. So these are not -- and -- you know, I want to amend my statement a little bit. I ‘m not sure these are even Hillary Clinton, Barack Obama supporters. I think these people are, you know, kind of like professional protesters more. They didn’t look to me like --
STEPHANOPOULOS: All those protesters in all those cities professionals?
GIULIANI: Well, yes, you gather a certain number of people around you but, you know, they look -- they look -- they didn’t look to me like people who were, you know, carefully studying political science and were all upset about the ideology of the election.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You know, final question. I want to get in what Brian Ross was talking about earlier. What do you think President-Elect Trump should do to assure people that there will be not a mingling of his business interests and his governmental duties, given the fact that his children will be running it and now part of the transition?
GIULIANI: Well, my -- my advice would be that once he enters office, there should be a separation, a blind trust or some kind of blind trust. As Brian pointed out, it’s different in the case of a president. They -- they have a lot more leeway in the way they can fashion it. But I think, for the good of the country and the fact that you don’t want a question coming up every time there’s a decision made, he should basically take himself out of it and just be a passive participant in the sense that he has no decision-making, no involvement and no decisions get made separate from him. Which is the way the way it’s done for more Cabinet offices. Or I think all Cabinet offices.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Mayor Giuliani, thanks very much for your time this morning.
GIULIANI: Thank you very much, George.
STEPHANOPOULOS: When we come back, what's next for the Democrats?
How will they recover from this crushing defeat?
Party chair candidate Keith Ellison is next plus analysis and insight from our powerhouse roundtable and Tom Friedman of "The New York Times."
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SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D), MASSACHUSETTS: When President-elect Trump wants to take on these issue, when his goal is to increase the economic security of middle class families, then count me in.
SEN. BERNIE SANDERS (I), VERMONT: I intend to work with President Trump on those issues where he will, in fact, work for the middle class and working families in this country. I will vigorously oppose him if he appeals to racism or sexism.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Top Democrats laying down their markers for how they'll work with President Trump, but who will take on the job of rebuilding the Democratic Party after Tuesday's crushing defeat put Republicans in control of the White House and congress? Congressman Keith Ellison may be the new party chair. He joins us next.
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REP. KEITH ELLISON (D), MINNESOTA: All I want to say is that anybody, well, from the Democratic side of the fence who thinks that -- who's terrified of the possibility of President Trump better vote, better get active, better get involved, because this man has got some momentum and we better be ready for the fact that he might be leading the Republican ticket.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I know you don't believe that, but I want to go on -- sorry.
ELLISON: George, we had Jesse Ventura in Minnesota win the governorship, nobody thought he was going to win. I'm telling you, stranger things have happened.
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STEPHANOPOULOS: Ah, prophetic Congressman Keith Ellison there, co-chair of the Congressional Progressive Caucus. He joins us right now. Congressman, thank you for joining us this morning.
It turned out that Democrats did not come out in the numbers they came out for, for Barack Obama. Five million fewer voters than went for Barack Obama back in 2012. So, what went wrong?
ELLISON: You know, that’s a good question, George. I think that Donald Trump picked on people’s fears, their anxieties and he gave them somebody to blame, and some folks just really turned out for him for that. At the same time, our message of strengthening the middle class, working people, we just didn’t penetrate well enough and we didn’t have the kind of turn out that we really needed or expected. Worked hard on it, but it didn’t come through in places like Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania.
It really should have, because people are struggling. And the Democratic message and the Democratic platform would help them, but somehow it didn't come up the way it should have. But it will.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Is Hillary Clinton...
ELLISON: We’re all ready to fight, we’re all ready -- yes?
STEPHANOPOULOS: Is Hillary Clinton right that James Comey cost her the election?
ELLISON: I think that it did not help. It certainly stopped -- it changed the conversation. The conversation should’ve been about middle class people. The conversation should’ve been about how to raise the minimum wage and strengthen Social Security. But then we started talking about this whole email stuff again. And now the outcome is that, you know, Donald Trump has somebody who he’s looking at to put on his Cabinet who’s a lobbyist to privatize Social Security. That’s the outcome of this election, and even -- and much more.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I know you were considering joining into this race for DNC chair, chair of the Democratic National Committee. You already have a lot of support. But you look at this very closely-divided election. Even though Hillary Clinton won the popular vote, you now have Republicans in charge of the White House, the Congress, a majority of governors, more governors than they’ve had in 100 years, more state houses than they’ve ever had before. A lot of Democrats complain that that party has been basically hollowed out under President Obama. How do you fix it?
ELLISON: I think you’ve got to have a vision to strengthen the grassroots. To strengthen the grassroots at the party -- at the party unit, at the county level, at the precinct level, and then to help motivate and facilitate the local grassroots to get out there and turn out the vote and boost turn out. And then to help govern in places where we do hold city councils and state legislatures. And then also they’ll be part of that loyal opposition. We need to invest at the local party unit and focus our energy on turn out. That’s how we come back, and we can come back.
ELLISON: It’s simply a matter of energy and resources.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You’ve said that the party has spent -- had a little bit too much focus on fundraising, not enough on the grassroots.
ELLISON: Well, I do believe that we should have to -- make the voters first; not the donors first. I love the donors and we thank them, but it has to be that the guys in the barber shop, the lady at the diner, the folks who are worried about whether that plant is going to close, they’ve got to be our focus. They’ve got to be a laser-beam focus on everything we do, and everything we do should animate and empower them at the grassroots level for working people across this country. That’s how we come back.
STEPHANOPOULOS: There’s a lot of energy in the streets as well. You heard Rudy Giuliani say he thinks that a lot of protesters are professional protesters right there.
STEPHANOPOULOS: What is your message to them? How does that -- how do you channel that energy, and can it and must it remain peaceful?
ELLISON: Well, absolutely it has to remain peaceful. But, look, you know, the First Amendment says that we can protest and call to -- on our government to address grievances. These folks are telling Donald Trump that if he tries to move out on his plan to have a deportation squad, to harm Americans, and if he does -- and if he has -- he tries to do that, we’re going to be there to stand and say no. We don’t -- we oppose his misogyny. We oppose his picking on people of different ethnic and religious groups. And we want to be making clear that if he tries to deliver on his word, that we will be there to say no.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How about --
ELLISON: That’s why people are on the streets.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How about the areas where he could work with Democrats?
He mentioned a big infrastructure investment and you all have been very supportive of that. He said that even though he wants to repeal and replace ObamaCare, he might want to preserve some parts.
ELLISON: Well, you know, that would be a welcome development. We’ll see if he wants to deliver on that. The truth is that if he does, we want to see infrastructure development too. We think all over this country we need to rebuild everything from transit, fiber optic broadband in our rural areas and urban areas.
Both things are -- that’s a worthy program. We’ll see if he really means it though; he will get a chance to deliver on that promise. And if he doesn’t, we’ll make sure the people know about it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Finally, are you formally going to enter this race for DNC chair?
And if you do and if you become chair of the party, will you step down from Congress?
A lot of people believe, including Howard Dean is looking at this, that the party demands a full-time chair.
ELLISON: Well, you know, the most important criteria for a DNC chair is going to be vision.
Do you have the vision to help empower and channel the energy at the grassroots level?
This is not about one person; this is about millions of people all working together to protect and advance the interests of working Americans. That’s what it’s really about: vision and the ability to mobilize and inspire people at the grassroots. That’s what the most important criteria is going to be for any DNC chair.
And so, look, I’ve been talking to people all over the country, city council members, grassroots leaders, party leaders, members in Congress -- and you know what? The truth is I’ll have something to say real soon.
STEPHANOPOULOS: OK, we will be listening. Congressman, thanks very much for your time this morning.
ELLISON: Thank you.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Powerhouse roundtable is next plus Tom Friedman on the global forces that gave Donald Trump his opening.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: What an amazing win for Donald Trump.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: He's going to take care of our vets. He's going to get rid of ObamaCare. It's just going to be awesome.
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: (INAUDIBLE).
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANOPOULOS: Emotions running high following Tuesday's election. So we asked Americans some of their feelings about Trump's win in a single word.
About half said that they feel hopeful, relieved and happy.
The other half shocked, disappointed and worried.
And looking to the future, the words uncertain and scared near the top but hopeful and optimistic prevail and beneath the division one sign of civility, 73 percent of Americans have a close friend or family member who voted for an opposing candidate.
We'll be right back with our roundtable.
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BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think the American people, you know, they're going to want that new car smell. They want to drive something off the lot that doesn't have as much mileage as me.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
STEPHANOPOULOS: President Obama more than two years ago and I guess they got that. About as new a car as you can imagine coming out of this election and let's talk about what happened and what comes next with our roundtable.
Joined by the editor of "The Weekly Standard," Bill Kristol; Republican strategist Mary Matalin; Democratic strategist CNN political commentator Van Jones and Katrina Vanden Heuvel, editor and publisher of "The Nation."
And Mary, let me begin with you. What a shock to so many people.
But should more have seen it coming?
MARY MATALIN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: Yes. And for those of us who have been disgruntled conservatives, who have watched the last successive tsunami at midterms and such, where Republicans were given majorities in both chambers and did little with it, this was no surprise to us.
Also, in the sense of media saying this about themselves, I drive to my kids' school in upstate New York through rural Virginia, Maryland, Pennsylvania, New York; Trump signs everywhere.
You can't -- you just have to get out of the bubble and you have to quit listening to yourself. People are really hurt. The irony of this is, though, had Ms. Clinton listened to her husband instead of her boss, she might could have stopped this Rust Belt redneck revolt, which is -- he himself is calling (INAUDIBLE) -- he was -- Bill Clinton was giving the Clinton campaign the best advice.
And had she taken it, I think she could have mitigated her losses but I still think Trump would have won.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Clinton campaign says and we heard it at front (ph), all through this week, none of they (ph) -- they were -- they tried to do that, they wanted to do that, they were blocked by James Comey.
VAN JONES, CNN POLITICAL COMMENTATOR: Look, there's a lot of things that I think you got to deal with. Hillary Clinton was -- she had to put down a rebellion in her own party, the (INAUDIBLE) rebellion, then she's going to have to put down the Trump rebellion and then try to govern.
So she was going to have a very difficult pathway going forward anyway.
The thing about this Trump phenomenon is that there's a lot of good stuff in it; you know, the anti-elitism, the concern for working class jobs.
But it's just marbles with all this toxic stuff, the misogyny, the outright bigotry and so now people are left to try to pull this apart. If you just say that, look at all the good stuff and you don't acknowledge the toxic stuff, you're wrong. If you're only looking at toxic stuff and don't recognize there's going to be some good stuff if you're for infrastructure or whatever, you're wrong.
And so people are going to have to do a big reset. But this is a big wake-up call to the entire establishment, including the Democrats. And not just because of the failure.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And we're seeing people in the streets.
KATRINA VANDEN HEUVEL, EDITOR, "THE NATION": We're seeing people in the streets because this last week, George, was a week of grief and mourning and despair for many. But it's now time to organize and move forward. It's time for deep thinking, reformation of the Democratic Party.
It's also time to hold Donald Trump accountable to what he governed on. I thought the next morning after the election, there was a little squib in the paper, 2,000 workers are going to be laid off in Lordstown, Ohio and Lansing, Michigan.
What's he going to do?
So I think this was a change election, as David Axelrod said. It was a primal scream by many who feel that a discredited elite failed them, economically and politically.
We need to find a new way forward. There are keys ways progressives can speak. I would say one thing people need to do -- and his is how Roosevelt's New Deal began -- let us go back to cities and states where we can, build emblematic progressive reforms, like the Fight for 15 minimum wage, paid sick leave, things that improve the conditions of people's lives...
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- and that drive them into a national message, which I think...
STEPHANOPOULOS: That's going to be where -- that's where the opposition is going to try to go.
And Bill Kristol, is the focus going to be now on Washington and a real consolidation in Washington now. Republicans in control of everything.
But when you look at that key question that Katrina talks about, what is President-elect Trump going to do, it's hard to glean that from his campaign. The kind of -- the promise is vague and sweeping, but vague in places. Also contradictory at times.
Where are the clues?
BILL KRISTOL, EDITOR, "THE WEEKLY STANDARD": Well, they're -- I mean I think he will do something on immigration. He will try to renegotiate the trade deals a little bit. There are a few things he's been pretty clear he'll do. A big infrastructure program that he'll get bipartisan support for. Republican Congressmen and senators will be in a very interesting place, where they have to support the president-elect -- president -- what will be President Trump when they -- when they agree with him, try to guide him in certain ways, I think oppose him on some things.
It will be an unusual dynamic. It won't be like the rallying behind President Obama in 2009 or behind President Bush, even at the beginning of his presidency, or even Clinton in '93, when he got his budget through on a partisan vote.
I think it will be a very in -- unusual dynamic.
KRISTOL: It's been an unusual election.
The main thing for me, just one point, though. You know, I was "Never Trump." But it turned out never (INAUDIBLE) was really the theme of this election. If you think about it, Donald Trump...
KRISTOL: -- beat Jeb Bush and beat Hillary Clinton. And when everyone thinks of Donald Trump...
VANDEN HEUVEL: A change -- a change election.
KRISTOL: -- whatever one -- but not just change. I mean defeating Bush and then Clinton, whatever one thinks of Donald Trump, that's pretty impressive.
JONES: Look, I think that if you want to understand where the grassroots progressive movement is going to be, first of all, incredible concern for the most vulnerable. You have, you know, 7,000 or more Dreamers...
VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes.
JONES: -- who -- who've signed up for DACA. Trump will have their names or addresses. There's very -- there's huge concern. And with -- there's going to be a moral line drawn around the Dreamers.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But -- and that's going to be...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- a big challenge for President-elect Trump.
And we just heard Paul Ryan say this morning that they're not looking at a deportation force.
Does he sign an executive order that takes away those protections for the Dreamers?
JONES: And if he does...
JONES: -- there will be a massive reaction.
VANDEN HEUVEL: A massive...
JONES: A massive reaction.
MATALIN: He is not going to do that.
JONES: He said he would.
MATALIN: The first thing he's going to do is roll back the fiat executive orders that were unconstitutional.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But one of those was the Dreamers.
MATALIN: The -- but not -- it's not -- he's going to start with the regulatory ones, because he wants to grow the economy.
The problem with Keith Ellison's message and what you all are saying -- and I -- and I respect what you're saying because we have been there -- is -- and another irony of this campaign -- is that Barack Obama always won astronomically on his own, but he has completely devastated the party. He's lost the Senate, the House, 30 governorships, over 900 legislatures...
JONES: That's why we need Keith Ellison...
JONES: That's why we need...
JONES: What you just said is the best case for Keith Ellison. Keith Ellison is an organizer's organizer.
MATALIN: That's right.
JONES: He -- he's one of the only Muslims in Congress, so you have a big statement there.
MATALIN: What's his message?
He's going to take care of...
(CROSSTALK) VANDEN HEUVEL: His message is...
JONES: Voters over donors.
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- his message is...
JONES: Voters over donors.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Vote -- his message is voters over donors, it's going to the grassroots, it's connecting the movement of our time to what's going on in cities, states and inside the beltway.
The movements are where the energy are...
VANDEN HEUVEL: He's also...
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- he's also smart about rebuilding power.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I -- I've got to...
VANDEN HEUVEL: Power.
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- I've got to put a stop to this because President-elect Trump...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- President-elect Trump...
KRISTOL: It's kind of a big deal.
STEPHANOPOULOS: I've just got...
KRISTOL: It's kind of a big deal.
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- just this week...
STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to talk more about the opposition in a second, but let's -- let's move on and focus a little bit more...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- on what he's got to do.
VANDEN HEUVEL: One thing on Trump I think is going to be vital...
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- moving forward.
VANDEN HEUVEL: One reason we have Trump, not the only, because there was great rage and anger in this country, is the media. The media is going to need to be more fearless, more courageous, despite Trump's threats versus the media, and need to hold him accountable.
We need more watchdogs, not lap dogs, in a Trump administration...
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- and not normalize Donald Trump.
KRISTOL: Well, I -- I agree with that, but what's more important than the media, there's this thing called ObamaCare, which was President Obama's signature domestic achievement. It won Republicans the House in 2014 -- 2010. It won Republicans the Senate in 2014.
And if you look at the polls, for all the talk about immigration and even trade, ObamaCare was an extremely important issue for...
KRISTOL: -- for Trump voters in 2016.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Right.
KRISTOL: And I think Rudy Giuliani was right.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But let me...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- let me press you on this one...
KRISTOL: The ObamaCare premiums, the numbers started moving away from Hillary Clinton...
KRISTOL: -- the moment there was a problem with...
STEPHANOPOULOS: There -- there may be some truth to that...
KRISTOL: -- premiums (INAUDIBLE).
STEPHANOPOULOS: But let's look at what Donald Trump is now saying. He's saying he wants to repeal and replace ObamaCare. He is also saying maybe that if you have a pre-existing condition, you'll be able to buy insurance.
KRISTOL: Well, that...
STEPHANOPOULOS: That doesn't work.
KRISTOL: It does work.
MATALIN: Yes it does.
KRISTOL: No, no, the actual Republican...
MATALIN: Yes it does.
KRISTOL: Look, at actual Republican and conservative think-tank proposals to replace ObamaCare all have -- all -- all have the pre-existing condition provision in, done somewhat differently from President Obama's.
Look, it's not going to be easy. This is the main problem...
STEPHANOPOULOS: You have to have subsidies.
You have to have...
KRISTOL: Tax credits instead of a huge bureaucracy. This is the question for me.
If President Obama -- President Trump shows up with a, you know, cleaver and just says, I can get rid of all these regulations, I can get rid of ObamaCare, no problem at all, then that would be a mistake.
KRISTOL: First of all, legally, it's hard to do these things. He needs a lot of competent people...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let me...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- let me ask...
KRISTOL: -- he has contempt for. He needs -- he needs to hire to work...
STEPHANOPOULOS: I want to ask Mary a question and then go on. (CROSSTALK)
KRISTOL: I'm sorry.
STEPHANOPOULOS: But what is the core promise he has to deliver on to those voters who came out in (INAUDIBLE)...
MATALIN: First and foremost...
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- numbers?
MATALIN: -- and one out of five voters voted on this, and 70 percent of the issues that people voted on issues and they thought the media was inventing the controversy. It is no like they didn't hold him accountable -- the Supreme Court is number one.
On repeal and replace, he has to have a -- and he said he is going to have a transition element for those states, like in Florida, he's, you know, Republican governors who have put in some form of it. They has to be a transition through it.
There -- the beauty for Trump is that Ryan et. Al have worked on all this legislation and he is going to be able to hit the ground running. They're not policy wonks he's -- he's (INAUDIBLE). He's had the good judgment and common sense to get back with all these people, who have written the legislation already.
JONES: The -- the progressives have a challenge now. Part of it is that you now have a lot of progressives who feel that 50 million, 60 million people voted to endorse the toxic parts of Donald Trump, that suddenly we now are in a country, you know, surrounded by people who, you know, are proud to be, you know, a part of this alt-right thing and they think it was an alt-right takeover.
And so progressives are overreacting to that.
Underreacting, though, to the -- what the real threats are, and the real opportunities.
If Trump throws 20 million off of health care, that's going to be -- if he handles this badly -- and it's very hard to handle it right, then that's a -- a huge advantage in the mid-terms for us.
If Trump goes after -- if Trump fails, frankly, to stand up right now for the Muslim community -- right now, Muslims are being bullied. Women wearing hijabs are being bullied and people are saying, "Trump, Trump!" when they're doing it.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes.
JONES: He has a tremendous opportunity, you know, this week, to come out and say I don't want that.
JONES: If he -- if he fails some of these moral tests...
VANDEN HEUVEL: There will be political...
JONES: -- he's the...
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- there will be political...
JONES: -- then there will be political consequences.
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- moral and political costs. And I also think we need to hold him accountable.
One of the reasons he won was he wanted to drain the swamp, right, of corruption inside the beltway. No more deal-making.
His transition committee on ethics is a rogue's gallery of lobbyists. He's appointed a climate denialist. That is a trans-partisan movement in this country. And that's not left or right. That is human beings versus physics.
But I'm just saying, we've got to hold Trump accountable. I disagree with Mary. I think media accountability will be critical. Too many rallies where you saw tree rope journalists.
VANDEN HEUVEL: We've got (INAUDIBLE)...
MATALIN: -- Katrina.
VANDEN HEUVEL: -- and I'm not saying we don't try and find a way to find opportunities, infrastructure and all of that.
MATALIN: What -- how...
JONES: Can we just get back to Trump for a minute?
MATALIN: How can you say that...
VANDEN HEUVEL: Because moral and political costs...
JONES: I mean Trump is...
KRISTOL: -- Trump is more important than all of us. He's more important than the media.
KRISTOL: It is that...
VANDEN HEUVEL: Yes.
KRISTOL: He -- if he behaves well, personally, and morally -- I agree with Van on this -- if he distances -- if he disassociates himself from forces that he unfortunately coddled and even fostered a little in this campaign, if he is responsible about the way in which he goes about his policy, initiatives on immigration and ObamaCare, trade and other areas, he has a huge opportunity, because the truth is that a lot of this stuff isn't that -- there is a lot that can be done...
MATALIN: He didn't coddle them.
MATALIN: He repudiated them. They're...
KRISTOL: But he's going to be better than the...
MATALIN: -- everything...
KRISTOL: -- don't you think President -- President Trump has to be better than Candidate Trump?
MATALIN: Yes, OK?
VANDEN HEUVEL: One -- one thing...
VANDEN HEUVEL: Well, wait.
VANDEN HEUVEL: One thing that nobody...
STEPHANOPOULOS: Let Mary answer.
STEPHANOPOULOS: -- let Mary answer.
VANDEN HEUVEL: One thing Bill will not like -- and I think this is hopeful, this is not a popular position, but it is not pro-Trump or pro-Putin to argue that this country needs a better relationship with Russia, to partner with Russia to resolve the Syria crisis, to combat terrorism, even climate.
And I will say that Donald Trump, speaking of and what Van said, he did swat at the failed neo-con orthodoxies of our times, which failed us in Iraq and have been discredited.
MATALIN: Can -- can I have an honest moment here, people?
VANDEN HEUVEL: Please.
MATALIN: If -- Van has, to my mind, retracted your whitelash with what you just said, no, that we have to not focus totally on the toxic stuff...
JONES: No, it...
MATALIN: OK. When you...
MATALIN: -- if you don't, you're wrong.
JONES: No, you -- you raised...
MATALIN: You are not -- that's not the path for progressives. We've all agreed at the outset of this show that the path -- which is Ellison's message, you say, is to go back to the Rust Belt.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Absolutely.
MATALIN: -- and the rednecks. Well, you're not going to get there with climate change and Putin and all the rest of it.
VANDEN HEUVEL: The people in South Carolina who run hotels, who understand -- self-interest. They will be overrun by rivers and water if they don't deal -- deal with climate crisis.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Yeah, we're just about out of time. Van, you said the whitelash...
JONES: I said and stand by it. I said that race was a part, and there was a part, that alt-right part, that was a part of the whitelash. And if you listened to the whole quote, you would agree with what I said.
MATALIN: I did listen and again you said what do I tell the kids? What I would tell your kids, I'm a black man in America who went to Yale, who has written books, who served a president and now...
JONES: And ninth generation American, ma'am, and I'm the first one in my family born with all my rights. I'm a ninth generation American. And so we have not escaped because I went to Yale all the problems of this country.
MATALIN: So, you should be a racial polemicist. You should be a racial reconciler.
JONES: You should be ashamed of your self to say that to my face. I have spent more time in this country...
MATALIN: Say it behind your back would be better?
JONES: Hold on a second, I spent more time than you have trying to be a racial reconciler.
MATALIN: Really? How do you know that? Do you anything about me? Do you know anything about me?
JONES: Apparently you don't know anything about me.
MATALIN: Yes, I do know your daddy, your grandparents were teachers. Your grandfather was a bishop.
JONES: George, this is a problem that we have right now. It is in fact the case there was a populist revolt in this country both Sanders and Trump, but one of them was marbled through with this alt-right stuff. If someone like myself, who is married to a white woman, who has spent my entire life building bridges, can't point out the alt-right whitelash reaction without being accused of being a racial polemicist, we're going to have a big problem.
VANDEN HEUVEL: Have you no sense of decency to say that to a man who has been a healer throughout horrific brutal campaign, he has spoken sanity to power. And to those who...
MATALIN: OK, my deepest apologies. You don't know anything about me. You don't know anything about my healing and I would say there are ways to get to reconciliation different from calling -- focusing on the toxic elements as you did...
JONES: You have to talk about both.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You guys will talk about it outside. We are going to come back with The New York Times columnist Tom Friedman.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Back now with Thomas Friedman, the Pulitzer Prize-winning columnist for The New York Times, is out with a new book "Thank You for Being Late." It pinpoints 2007 as the year what he calls the, quote, great acceleration began, ushering in a dizzying and disorienting era of change -- technological, economic, environmental. Dealing with that change, the challenge of our time, says Tom Friedman. He's here to explain it right now.
And I want to get to the substance of the book, but it is so closely connected to this presidential election. And you also wrote a series of columns during the campaign, very tough on Donald Trump. You called him a disgusting human being and now you're calling the election a moral 9/11 only 9/11 was done to us from the outside. We did this to ourselves.
That's pretty apocalyptic language.
TOM FRIEDMAN, THE NEW YORK TIMES: Well, you know, there's no question that we saw language used in this campaign that debased and demeaned people, George, in ways we've never seen before. Your red lines were erased that I don't think will be easily restored. So this was a huge moral event, there's no question about it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: How much of it, though, was the inevitable backlash to the kind of changes you describe in your book.
FRIEDMAN: My book basically argues that we're actually in the middle of three no nonlinear accelerations all at the same time with the three largest forces on the planet, which I call the market -- that's digital globalization, mother nature, that's climate change biodiversity laws, and Moore's law, technological change.
And I think those accelerations, George, have touched the two more neuralgic (ph) things that basically define us as people: our home and workplace.
So, let's look at it. The acceleration in immigration that are going on, there are a lot of people out there in middle America, they go to the grocery store now the cashier is speaking Spanish. That's really fine by me. I love a pluralistic society, but I can understand why that makes them feel less at home, you know. They go into the men's room and there is someone who looks like a woman who may be a man, that's totally fine by me. I'm really glad LGBT people have their rights, but I can understand how that change came too fast.
Then they go to the office and now there's a robot next to them who seems to be studying their job. So the two things that most define people, their sense of home and community and their sense of work, these accelerations are deeply disrupting.
STEPHANOPOULOS: And we know that Donald Trump tapped into that, did Hillary Clinton not do a good enough job of reaching those people and saying, we can make this change work for you?
FRIEDMAN: Well, you know, to me what Hillary missed is that I grew up in Minnesota and talk a little about that, a lot about that in the book. In Minnesota in the '60s and '70s, George, if you were an average worker, a blue collar person -- I have a congressman who I quoted in the book, he said, you know, growing up in Minnesota in the '60s and 70s you needed a plan to fail. There was so much wind at the back for the average worker.
Now you need a plan to succeed. And you've got to meet workers where that anxiety is.
The problem is it's not so easy. You know, my book actually has a theme song it's by Brandy Carlisle. I thought of trying to buy it and see if when you open the book it would play that song like a hallmark card plays Happy Birthday. And the main refrain in that song is "I wrap your love around me like a chain but I never was afraid that it would die. You can dance in a hurricane but only if you're standing in the eye."
Now I would argue that Donald Trump ran against the hurricane. The hurricane are these three accelerations, the challenge of politics today is to build an eye that moves with the storm, draws energy from it but creates a platform of dynamic stability within it.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You see a lot of people not just in the United States, around the world running with that same kind of populism.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You've got yesterday we saw Donald Trump with Nigel Farage of the Brexit campaign in England. You've got Marine Le Pen in France. There are two very different responses to these changes you are talking about.
FRIEDMAN: And the challenge is, and I'll be honest with you, I don't see anyone has quite found the answer for what you do with an average worker in a world where machines, George, have all five senses now, but that's the strategy I try to put forward in the book. That's what I'm struggling with.
I think it's the essence of politics right now because average is officially over. I didn't do that, but average got you so much more, you know, in the '50s, '60s, and '70s than it does today.
STEPHANOPOULOS: You're also saying it should call for a radical transformation of our politics. You describe yourself a member now of a fourth party.
FRIEDMAN: Well, basically, my own politics, George, is I'm actually to the left I think of Bernie Sanders on some issues. I think in this world of accelerations, we're going to need better and stronger safety nets. I mean for single-payer health care. But at the same time, I'd be right of The Wall Street Journal editorial page. I think we should abolish all corporate taxes and replace them with a carbon tax, a tax on bullets, a tax on sugar and a tax on small financial transaction tax.
Our challenge, and the challenge of politics going forward, is to get I think stronger safety nets, because this world is going to be too fast for a lot of people, George, and to pay for them, we need to get radically entrepreneurial.
One side always emphasized the radical entrepreneurship, one just the safety nets and the two have got to co-evolve together.
STEPHANOPOULOS: We only have a few seconds left. You're not a Trump supporter. What is the one piece of advice you have for President Trump?
FRIEDMAN: You know, I think the most important thing he can do is obviously be a healer, but start with the climate issue. It's so much more important than he realizes, George. Because a lot of this immigration push -- I just did a documentary about this in Africa, it's people being driven off the land, they're going north, they're coming our way. Don't dismiss it. It's a hugely important issue. And if he just makes the smallest gesture toward it, he will produce such I think goodwill on the other side.
STEPHANOPOULOS: Tom Friedman, thanks very much. The book "Thank You For Being Late." Thanks for coming in.
FRIEDMAN: My pleasure.