Police reform only leads to more policing, author says

Scholar, professor, and writer Philip V. McHarris presents a reimagined world absent of a law enforcement presence in his latest book, "Beyond Policing."

McHarris' examination of the history and impact of policing is not just a surface-level critique, but a comprehensive analysis.

When he became genuinely interested in the history of policing, McHarris said he discovered that the stories that were commonly told about policing as providers of public safety and their historical legacy were not accurate. McHarris says that in many ways, police were involved in race and class control from the very beginning of policing.

ABC News sat down with McHarris as he discussed a world with limited police and broad police reform.

ABC NEWS: Policing in the United States has been a long, hotly debated issue. With growing concerns that traditional methods often make problems worse rather than solving them. In his new book, "Beyond Policing," distinguished scholar and writer Philip V. McHarris traces the history and impact of policing and advocates for alternative models to create a more just and equitable society. And joining us now is Philip McHarris. Thank you so much for coming on the show.

McHARRIS: Thank you for having me.

ABC NEWS: So basically, the current state of criminal justice and law enforcement is something that has been, discussed in particular, since the murder of George Floyd. I'm curious what inspired you to write this book?

McHARRIS: Thank you for that question. And when I think about that question, I think what I first think of is my own experiences growing up as a young person. Some of my first memories are of policing and police violence.

And then, you know, when I started my scholarship, I really became interested in the histories of policing. And what I found is that the stories that we're often told about policing as the providers of public safety and their historical legacy being such was not accurate. And, you know, in many ways, police were embedded in race/class control from the very onset of policing.

ABC NEWS: And you write how the idea of police reform often leads to increased policing. Tell us about that impact, that that unintended impact that it can have.

McHARRIS: For sure. So what we see is that beginning in the 1900s, there started to become this language around reform. And at the time, there was widespread corruption and police violence and police brutality.

And so reformers sought to try to change the system, to become less violent and more professional. And what we see is, even in the past 10 years have been a number of reforms that have been proposed and that have been, implemented. But when you look at the rates of police killings in the past 10 years, they remain stagnant.

ABC NEWS: Let's talk about a number of people have been, it's top of mind anyway. Sonya Massey's death being shot and killed, in the head in her own kitchen after she had called police. What kind of reform could decrease these kinds of incidents?

McHARRIS: So I really think what we need to look towards is community interventions and community safety models. And so the way that I think about that is, threefold. One, we need to think about preventative measures to reduce the likelihood of a range of instances that are harmful, and violent and cause conflict for people, that end up causing them to feel the need to call the police.

And then the second piece is we also need alternative safety interventions. And so we can see that in moments of need, when people call the police, they run the risk of becoming victims of violence themselves by the hands of police.

ABC NEWS: In your book, you write to move beyond policing, we need to start creating a society in which police departments are obsolete and and that kind of language, you know, defunding the police or disbanding police. A number of people are not down with that. And so how would you propose that there's still, in your alternative solutions, that if somebody if there's a crime that's happening, who would you call right away?

McHARRIS: Right. So first, I think, you know, one thing that we need to look at is why are criminalized activities happening? And one of the biggest predictors of that is poverty and deprivation. And so I think, you know, that's long been known. It's one of the most well-known ideas and foundations in social science.

And so I think we really need to start addressing the underlying conditions and things that give rise to moments of conflict, violence and harm. And so, you know, I would start by saying a part of what that means is that we create a world in which policing is obsolete because one, we have the resources to thrive and communities have what they need. But also we have community-based safety interventions that are driven by the community.

ABC NEWS: When you're talking about reimagining public safety, who are you going to call? You're going to call someone who is just still a police officer, but by a different name. Just help me to understand because a number of people are going to say, no, I'm scared about this because this isn't just necessarily because of you live in a high crime neighborhood. This could be also an instance of domestic violence where you need somebody to come who has the authority and power to intervene.

McHARRIS: So it's a good question, and I think a lot of people have that question. And, you know, as an abolitionist, I believe in the abolition of policing in prisons. And the first thing, as you mentioned, people say, is, well, who are you going to call? You know, and I think that people can have an entity to call that can provide responses to specific needs.

And so I think, say in the case of mental health, there's crisis response models, right? CAHOOTS is one. MH first in California is another, where people can either call a centralized number or people can call a specific number to have a response. And so that's one way of approaching it.

But then also, as you mentioned, there is a need to respond to things like domestic violence and cases of violence and harm. And I think that we can develop a system where people are able to call and have, you know, an entity, or team that can respond with the resources and the training that they need. But I think that we really need to start from square one and build that vision to completely reimagine our approach to public safety.

ABC NEWS: Philip McHarris, we thank you so much for taking the time to come on the show. "Beyond Policing" will be available to purchase tomorrow [July 30] wherever books are sold.