Pakistani Leader Takes on Blair
July 21, 2005 — -- Prior to the second London subway incident in two weeks, Pakistani President Gen. Pervez Musharraf spoke with ABC News' Cynthia McFadden: and answered questions about extremists in his own country, the search for Osama bin Laden and accusations that the mastermind of the first London terror bombing is in Pakistan. Here is a selection of highlights from their discussion and sit-down interview.
Musharraf Takes on Blair
There are religious leaders who indulge in extremism and hate campaigns within London. Have they arrested any of them? Please set your house in order first. Because this indoctrination of youngsters is happening in England. These three came from there. They've been born there, they've been educated there. How is Pakistan to blame? So please stop casting aspersion"
"You do your job in your country. I do my job in my country."
"What have you done? There hasn't been anybody here passing an edict against Mr. Prime Minister Tony Blair. But here sitting in London they passed an edict against me. Nothing has been done."
Fatwahs in London Against Musharraf
"I'd like to ask -- there are two extremist organizations in … London …. Do you know that they passed an edict, a fatwah against me? That killing me is, should be -- they passed an edict to kill me … What did England do about this? Have they banned these organizations? Have they arrested the person who has done that? No, nothing. Nothing. In the name of human rights, in the name of liberty, human liberty, freedom of speech, this is going on. So why blame us? Please set your own house in order. Everyone has to do something. The world is in turmoil."
Interview Highlights: On Bin Laden
McFadden: If you found him, would you turn him over to the Americans?
Musharraf: Now this -- we'll see -- we'll see what happens.
McFadden: Hard issue.
Musharraf: We hope he's found in Afghanistan by the Americans.
McFadden: I bet. [both chuckle a bit]. It would raise enormous problems for you at home … Many have suggested that it is easier for Pakistan to have Osama bin Laden not captured than to have to deal with the reality of Osama bin Laden in captivity.
Musharraf: These are sensitive issues. He has a clout in certain brand of people. So … therefore I would much prefer that somebody else handled him.
McFadden: Which makes me think you are not looking quite as hard as you might.
Musharraf: [laughing] No, not at all. We are. Our intelligence is very well coordinated, by the way. If we are not looking very intensively for him, then the United States is also not looking for him. Our intelligence is extremely well coordinated. By the way, let me also tell you -- as I said there are three: human intelligence is all Pakistan; technological, you must understand, is more United States. Aerial surveillance is United States, OK? So if there's an intelligence failure, 2/3 is United States failure, 1/3 Pakistan. You must understand that.
Response to CIA Chief Goss's Comment on Bin Laden
McFadden: I want to read you something that the CIA chief in the United States said and get your reaction to it. He said that American intelligence "has an excellent idea of where bin Laden is but we are probably not going to bring Mr. bin Laden to justice because very difficult questions dealing with sanctuaries in sovereign states." Most people read this as Pakistan won't go in and let us grab him.
Musharraf: Yes, we won't let anyone come into Pakistan. This is an extremely sensitive issue here. We are capable of doing it. If we get intelligence, we will do it ourselves. Now as I said -- how does anyone other than us know where he is? We are carrying out operations. We -- we should be given intelligence and we will act. So why should anyone from outside come? This is an extremely sensitive issue with the people of Pakistan.
Pakistanis Would Not Celebrate Bin Laden Capture
McFadden: If Osama bin Laden were captured in the streets of America there would be celebration. In the streets of Pakistan what would the reaction be?
Musharraf: There won't be -- there will not be celebrations certainly. Huh, there will be negative reactions from extremists. The moderates will just like to remain quiet. That will be the reaction I think in Pakistan.
Bin Laden Alive?
McFadden: As we sit here today, do you know whether or not Osama bin Laden is dead or alive and whether or not he's here in Pakistan?
Musharraf: I am reasonably sure he's alive. I am not sure whether he is in Pakistan. He could be anywhere in Afghanistan, in Pakistan, on the border areas, switching sides, or he could have left the area. That possibility cannot be ruled out. I'm not sure. My gut says he is somewhere in the border areas. Either way toward Afghanistan or Pakistan … that makes sense because there are operations going on on either side.
Reason for Popularity of Bin Laden in Pakistan
McFadden: Polls show that in Pakistan as we sit here 50 percent of the public support Osama bin Laden.
Musharraf: That's a different issue.
McFadden: That's not the same thing as terrorism … in London?
Musharraf: No. I don't think Osama bin Laden … popularity is more … is anti-U.S. bias.
McFadden: It's not because he's the No. 1 terrorist?
Musharraf: I don't think his support is because he should carry on terrorist acts all over the world like what has happened in London or 9/11.
McFadden: So what you're explaining is that your perspective would be that the popularity of Osama bin Laden is not that the Pakistani people are in favor of terrorism but that they are opposed to U.S. policy?
Musharraf: Yes, I think so. I think exactly that they are opposed to U.S. policy, and they see him as a person who is fighting the policies of United States. But if you were to take a poll on are they in favor of terrorist attacks anywhere in the world like 9/11 or London I am reasonably sure the poll will indicate otherwise.
London Bombing Investigation
McFadden: Is there any credible intelligence link between the people you have detained and arrested in the past week and the London bombers?
Musharraf: No, not at all, not as yet, there is no credible link between them, at all. We have gone for the publications. Those who have been publishing hate material and distributing pamphlets and all that.
McFadden: At least three of the four bombers spent time in Pakistan within the last year. Do you know what they were doing in the country?
Musharraf: No, we don't, but we are trying to investigate. When they came. Of course, they came on British passports.
No Pakistani Masterminds Known
McFadden: There are many who say that the London bombers may have been the foot soldiers in the London bombings, but that the masterminds were based here in Pakistan. Is there any credible intelligence pointing to that at this point?
Musharraf: No, not at all, there is no credible intelligence until now. But one is trying to investigate, I don't know, we don't know.
No Intel From U.S. or U.K. on London Bombing
McFadden: [H]as either the U.S. or Great Britain provided any intelligence to you at this point?
Musharraf: No. No, we haven't got any such intelligence. As we said we have certain details of the contacts that they've made here. Through them we'll be able to maybe find out whether it has been contact from here -- or it is just the last two or three months that they came here. Now if has been last 2 or three months, I don't know. I can't be sure. We need to investigate.
Islam
McFadden: This vast middle mass of people are quite confused about religion. Is religion, is Islam what these extremists are saying it to be? Or is it something else?
Musharraf: Now we have ignored that. We have neglected it, I would say. We need to take the masses away. So therefore it's a very long-term objective that we are following to harmonize, change mindsets, bring normalcy into our society from what we have suffered over the last 26 years. This is a long drawn battle.
On Madrasas
McFadden: A senior member, a senior Democratic member of the U.S. House Intelligence Committee, a representative from the state of California, said that President Musharraf needs to act much more quickly to close the madrasas.
Musharraf: These are people who don't understand what the environment is. These are people who sit in the United States and they don't know Pakistan, they don't know madrasas, they don't know our environment. Please, I keep telling everyone, when you pass remarks, or comments, or views and opinions about any country or any system, first go and see that system, and first go and see that environment which is.
McFadden: It has been widely reported in the West that one of the London suicide bombers attended a madrasa here in Pakistan which was pro-Taliban, pro-al Qaeda. Can you confirm that?
Musharraf: I am not sure which madrasa this is, but we have certainly decided that any terrorist who has -- who's associated with any madrasa we are going to move against that madrasa.
McFadden: If that turns out to be the case, that madrasa will be closed?
Musharraf: Yes, we are going to move against it. We need to see, whether to close -- you see, these are not such simple issues. If that madrasa has -- suppose it has about 3,000 or 4,000 students, and these are students who are the poorest of the poor -- they get free board and lodge. We lock it -- where do we take these 4,000 boys? So these are not simple issues. You must understand exact environment. We must against the -- whoever is in charge of that madrasa, but then we need to see whether we can lock it up, close it down, and maybe take these students somewhere else.
Image of Pakistanis in the West
McFadden: Rightly or wrongly, Mr. President, there are now people in New York City, in London, many Western cities, when they see a person from Pakistan, they assume that this is a person who hates them -- or perhaps will harm them. They assume -- many Westerners now -- that Pakistanis are motivated to commit terrorist acts. What do you want them to hear you say?
Musharraf: No, I would like to say that this is absolutely and totally baseless and wrong. Number one, no Pakistani in the United States has been involved in any act. [T]hey are being singled out. Whereas they have not done anything. They have been very useful members of the society. My own brother is there, my own son was there. They are very happy, they have a good job, they are earning good money, they are contributing to the nation. So I don't know why Pakistan has been singled out while none of them has been involved -- have been involved. And any student who goes from here, I can assure you, 95 percent of them or even more go with the last money that their parents can generate. And those boys and girls are conscious of what their parents are contributing in their studies. So they are not involved in this kind of activity. So I think this is an absolutely misplaced notion.
America's Biggest Misconception
McFadden: America's biggest misconception about Pakistan is?
Musharraf: America's misperception about Pakistan is I think this very element that Pakistani society it consists of extremists. [T]he vast majority is moderate. Because till '79 everyone has been moderate. However, because of the 26 years extremists have come here, extremists are more militant and they rise and they are more visible. The vast majority, moderate, is huh -- dormant moderate, they are less visible but -- the U.S. must understand that the vast majority here are moderate. If they were extremists I wouldn't be popular here.