Scientology Leader Gave ABC First-Ever Interview

Nov. 18, 2006 — -- On Feb. 14, 1992, ABC News aired what Scientology leader David Miscavige said was his first-ever interview.

Today, in Italy, Miscavige was the best man at the wedding of actor Tom Cruise, a Scientologist.

Following is a transcript of his 1992 interview.

Ted Koppel, ABC News: Stars such as John Travolta and Tom Cruise say that Scientologyhas changed their lives, but critics charge fraud, that the Church ofScientology is nothing but a scam to take millions from unsuspectingbelievers. Tonight, we'll take you inside the Church of Scientology,as we bring you the first-ever interview with David Miscavige, thehead of the church.Some of you may recall that last May, Time magazine did a cover storyon the Church of Scientology. To say that the leaders of that churchdid not like the story would be a case of wretched understatement. Asyou will hear in a moment from my colleague, Forrest Sawyer, theScientologists launched a multi-million-dollar campaign tocounter the impact of that Time story. It was during that generalperiod and in that context that we got in touch with the man who nowruns the church, David Miscavige, to discuss his appearance on"Nightline." The process has taken nine months. Mr. Miscavige tells usthat he has never done an interview before. And I think it's alsofair to say that he and the men and women who run the Scientologyorganization are somewhat leery of the media. The Church ofScientology, for reasons that we will also be presenting, does notgenerally get a very favorable press. David Miscavige is described inone article as "ruthless, with a volatile temper," in another asbeing "so paranoid that he keeps plastic wrap over his glass ofwater." I was pleasantly surprised, then, when Mr. Miscavige firstcame to my office a few months back. He came alone, without anystaff, and we had an amiable, if intense, conversation. I believe heeven accepted a cup of coffee without plastic wrap. We'll let youmake up your own mind about David Miscavige. We do have some thingsto tell you, however, about the Church of Scientology. Here is thefirst of two reports from Nightline correspondent Forrest Sawyer.

Forrest Sawyer, ABC News: After decades of seeing church officials arrested [and] afterhundreds of lawsuits with critics and defectors, the Scientologybusiness is now booming -- led by a 31-year-old high-schooldropout who seized control of the church 10 years ago and charted anaggressive campaign to make Scientology a household world.

David Miscavige, October 1990: Tonight's event is being televised around the world, to every continent on the globe.

1st Actor, TV Commercial: Let's take a look inside the human mind.

2nd Actor, TV Commercial: Are you using your mind to the fullest?

Sawyer: The church's rapid growth is built on selling one singlemessage: "Scientology has uncovered the secret of human potential."The Scientologists have built their own TV and film studio.

Miscavige: You can't be back in the dark ages of mass communication and be heardin this world today.

Sawyer: Radio broadcasts are prepared, audiotapes reproduced by thethousands on high-speed copiers, original music created, all ofthis to encourage more people to join the movement, and join they do.The church says it now has centers in over 70 countries, with more onthe way. Church leaders say this place, 520 acres southof Los Angeles, a place they call "Gold," is a sign of their rapidexpansion. It is here where top church officials are planning thefuture. "Gold" is run by people who believe so strongly they'vesigned billion-year contracts with the church, a kind ofpriesthood, dressed in uniforms, working over 13 hours a day, earningjust $30 a week. The church says these men and women are only themost dedicated of eight million members worldwide. Church ofScientology president Heber Jentzsch. (interviewing) How do you getto call them members?

Heber Jentzsch, President, Church of Scientology:Because they joined and they came in and they studied Scientology.

Sawyer: They took one course, maybe.

Jentzsch: Well, that's how valuable the course is. Eight million people, yes,over a period of the last-- Since 1954.

Sawyer: Critics say the actual figure is closer to 100,000, butunquestionably, thousands of people, including well-knowncelebrities, do swear by what they call "a technology of the mind."

Chick Corea, Jazz Pianist:And this really directly affects my relationship with people, withindividuals around me, with my loved ones, and also with audiences.

Sawyer: Psychological techniques they say help them feel better and actmore effectively. And there's a promise of something more.

Ken Rose, Defector:From the very beginning, there was an air of mystery, there was anair of somewhere up this path there was something extremely potentand very sort of seductive and attractive.

Sawyer: The introduction begins when you walk into a Scientology center.Problems in your life? Take a personality test. "Evaluators" areready to tell you what's wrong. In fact, the counselorsare operating from a script that tells them exactly what to say. Forinstance, "You are capable and overt as a person, but probably not tothe degree that you should be or would like to be." And the scriptalways ends the same:

1st Scientology "Evaluator":That you are capable and overt, meaning open, as a person--

2nd Scientology "Evaluator":Just not to the degree that you feel that you could be or should be,and this is where Dianetics can help you.

Sawyer: The script tells the evaluators to sell hard: "The moreresistive" -- meaning resistant -- "or argumentative he is, the morethe points should be slammed home." And it works. Students oftenspend thousands of dollars to take more and more courses andcounseling called "auditing." They find problem areas by using an "E-meter," which Scientologists claim can read thoughts, or bymodeling with play-dough. The goal is to become what they call"clear," free of the influence of negative past experiences. For allthe praise of Scientology from church members, there are equallyvocal critics. This past spring, Time magazine published a coverstory on the church, calling it "the cult of greed and power."Reporter Richard Behar.

Richard Behar, Time Magazine:People feel good, they talk about their problems, just like somebodygoing into therapy might feel good talking about their problems. Butthis all seems to have an ulterior motive, and to lead into thisextremely high-priced one-on-one counseling and "auditing."

Sawyer: Dentist John Finucane liked the sales pitch he heard, and endedup spending over $42,000 on services.

Dr. John Finucane, Defector:They've tried to milk every penny they can out of any asset that Ihave, whether it's a credit card, whether it's my home, whether it'sfrom a friend, whether it's from family. If I can get a hold of moneyanywhere, they would like to have that money.

Sawyer: Two years ago, Finucane responded to a newsletter from SterlingManagement, a church-related consultant to health professionals. Hesays they helped his practice, but also led him into Scientology, andkept pushing for even more money. Finucane says they charged $8,500to his credit cards without permission. When they began phoning formore, he turned on his tape recorder.

Finucane (audio tape): So basically, I don't even have enough money for that, just to evenget to the point where I can do my auditing.

Scientologist (audio tape): Well, you have quite a bit, though, John. I mean, you know, I don'tthink buying more is your problem. Your problem is your wife.

Sawyer: Because Finucane's wife opposed the church, they declared him a"PTS," potential trouble source.

Finucane: They said, "Well, you either need to shape things up or 'disconnect,' "as they say, which, they won't ever say divorce. They just say"disconnect."

Sawyer: Ken Rose says he had to choose between the church and hischildren. He says he was told to sign a paper agreeing to waive hisparental rights, or see his sons thrown out of Scientology school.

Rose: On what is probably the darkest day of my life, I spent several hourswith them and their mother, with them, at one point, literally ontheir knees sobbing for me to sign this paper so that they could keepgoing to school.

Sawyer: Defectors claim the church tears families apart every day.Roxanne Friend brought her brother into the church. She says he endedup helping to kidnap her.

Roxanne Friend, Defector:They put me in a little apartment. They had a guard at the front doorand a guard at the back door, and I was not allowed to leave. Therewas no telephone and no means of communication with the outsideworld.

Sawyer: Friend claims she was held to convince her not to see a non-Scientologist doctor when she felt sick.

Friend: And be told, "Yeah, you are ill," but then, "No, we just need to audityou. Give us, you know, $6,000, $12,000, and we'll audit you andyou'll be flying again." That's a direct quote. "We'll get you flyingagain."

Sawyer: Today, Roxanne has incurable cancer, which she says could havebeen treated if diagnosed earlier. She spent over $80,000 onScientology, and has almost nothing left, and no medical insurance.She blames the church.

Friend: You're going to have a sense of anxiety or desperation to do whateverit takes to sign your life away, your money and your mortgage andyour child.

Sawyer: Church officials deny these charges made by what they call "a handfulof disgruntled people," many of whom they say are pursuing lawsuitsin order to squeeze the church for money. The defectors' response?There are hundreds of others who are simply afraid to speak out. Whythey may be afraid and what the church really believes in our nextreport, a few minutes from now.

Koppel: In fact, when we come back, we'll be bringing you part two of ForrestSawyer's report and the first-ever interview with the head of theChurch of Scientology, David Miscavige.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: What exactly does the Church of Scientology believe, and what canhappen to those who criticize those beliefs? Once again, here's"Nightline" correspondent Forrest Sawyer.

L. Ron Hubbard, author of "Dianetics" (1966):I've slept with bandits in Mongolia and I've hunted withpygmies in the Philippines. As a matter of fact, I have studied 21different primitive races, including the white race.

Sawyer: Scientology's founder was a man with an imagination. L. RonHubbard wrote pulp science fiction for a penny a word and, criticsclaim, manufactured his own life history as well. He called himselfan explorer and a war hero, the man who discovered the keys to theuniverse and used them to heal his own war injuries. Critics sayHubbard's claims were so fanciful that one California Superior Courtjudge declared Hubbard to be "…virtually a pathological liar."

Jentzsch: These are a bunch of people who never caused anything in their livesto begin with, and who I would say are jealous of a man who brought atechnology of religion to this world the like of which has never beenseen before, and it works.

Sawyer: In 1950, Hubbard turned away from pulp novels with a new bookthat would change everything. It was, Hubbard said, the "true scienceof the mind," and it sold millions. When psychiatrists challenged hisclaims that Dianetics could heal illnesses and increase intelligence,Scientologists fought back.

Jentzsch: Psychiatry is Russian and Nazi. Remember, it's an import. It's likebringing the bonic, the bubonic plague into America, as far as I'mconcerned. They are not American, and we are. And they can go back towhere they came from.

Sawyer: Hubbard said psychiatry was part of a vast conspiracy to destroyhis newly formed church and control mankind. Recent Scientology filmsstill attack psychiatrists as potential killers.

Actor, Scientology Film: And with each little swing, a manageable andcomposed individual, one, two, three.

Sawyer: Hubbard also announced he had gone beyond psychiatry, byliterally traveling in space to Venus and Mars, and to a distantradiation belt.

Hubbard: I was up in the Van Allen Belt. This is factual. And I don't know whythey're scared of the Van Allen Belt, because it's simply hot. You'dbe surprised how warm space is.

Sawyer: Hubbard said he had discovered secrets of the universe sopowerful they could only be heard by Scientologists who had spenthundreds of hours studying his programs. Anyone else would be struckdead by the knowledge. He told stories of how, 75 million years ago,an evil tyrant collected beings on other planets to be stored involcanoes on earth.

Hubbard: Boxed them up in boxes, threw them into space planes. DC-8 airplaneis the exact copy of the space plane of that day. No difference,except the DC-8 had fans, propellers on it, and the space planedidn't.

Sawyer: As this film depicts, the spirits' bodies were destroyed byhydrogen bombs, and today their troubled spirits are attached tohuman bodies by the thousands. Called "body thetans," they causeendless problems. Only Scientology knows how to shake them loose.

Friend: You talk to them, and when you find out who they are and what theyare, what they're doing and what's making them stick around you, thenthey blow. And so you pay a lot of money. I mean, you have lots ofbody thetans, so this process takes lots of time.

Sawyer: Scientologists today consider these sacred writings, the story of howmankind's problems evolved millions of years ago on other planets,and so they need to be kept secret. Defectors claim there is anotherreason for secrecy.

Rose: I really think that instead of handing out personality tests on thestreet, they handed out a story that said, you know, "What's reallyplaguing you is that you're encrusted with little spirits and thesespirits are suffering from an incident that took place 75 millionyears ago, and if you come on into our church we'll cure you ofthis," I think that there would be a high rate of people saying, "Nothanks."

Sawyer: L. Ron Hubbard died in 1985, leaving behind a church embroiledin controversy. The IRS has been in hot pursuit for years, defectorsare suing for millions of dollars in damages, and critics are loudlyclaiming the church is running a huge con game. Once again, thechurch is fighting back.

Behar: I've done a lot of investigative stories in my career, and this thing, this thing takes the cake.

Sawyer: When Richard Behar published a critical story in Time magazinein May, the church mounted a $3-million campaign in USA Today,accusing the magazine of being manipulated by drug companies thechurch opposes. Behar claims they went even further.

Behar: I have evidence that they've gotten hold of my personal phonerecords. They've called up friends, neighbors, a former colleague.I've gotten a visit to my apartment building which I believe isconnected to the story.

Sawyer: It is, critics claim, part of a policy called "fair game," inwhich enemies "May be tricked sued, or lied to, or destroyed." Thechurch acknowledges some of its officials, including Hubbard's ownwife, did harass people years ago, but they were convicted, and thepractice has stopped. Defectors say it still goes on.

Vicki Aznaran:They hire private detectives to harass people. They run covertoperations. You name it, they have never quit doing it. It would like--They would have to quit being Scientology if they quit doing that.

Sawyer: Vicki Aznaran is a former high-ranking church official wholost a power struggle with David Miscavige over control of the churchafter Hubbard's death. She is presently suing the church and claimsshe heard Miscavige order attacks on troublemakers.

Aznaran:He said that we will use public people, we'll send them out to thedissidents' homes, have them, their homes, broken into, have thembeaten, have things stolen from them, slash their tires, break theircar windows, whatever. And this was carried out and was being carriedout at the time I left.

Sawyer: Church officials vigorously deny all the charges, and call thesecritics nothing more than guppies trying to annoy a whale.

Jentzsch: You look at this. We get hit, we expand, we get hit, we expand, weget hit, we expand, we get hit, we expand. I mean, I don't want tosay the obvious. You hit us, we'll grow.

Sawyer: Scientology, they say, is growing by leaps and bounds, and forcritics and church defectors, that is precisely the problem. This isForrest Sawyer for "Nightline."

Koppel: Joining us live tonight is David Miscavige, whose formal title ischairman of the board of the Religious Technology Center, theorganization which manages Dianetics and Scientology. Mr. Miscavigetook over as the head of Scientology in 1987 following the death ofthe church's founder, L. Ron Hubbard. You've been sitting here verypatiently for the first 15 minutes. It's your turn. We're going totake a short segment here to talk, and then we'll take a break, andthen we've got the rest of the program to talk. Where would you liketo pick up on what many in our audience, I suspect, have seen for thefirst time about the Church of Scientology?

Miscavige: Yeah, well, I think-- You know, I guess the first thing I would liketo take up is the fact that the intro piece-- There's no questionthat there's some controversy surrounding Scientology, but if youwant to look at what the real controversy is, there's been storieslike this one that we saw here for the past 40 years, and yet duringthat time period Scientology's continued to grow. In fact, it's 25times larger today than it was in 1980. I would just like to take upa few of the falsehoods that are in there, because I think thisexplains a lot why you have the controversy. I don't know thatScientology lends itself so well to the press. In this instance, wedid agree that we would have your correspondents come in, and infact, he did have unlimited access to the church. But then you get apiece like this. For instance, something that isn't mentioned inthere is that every single detractor on there is part of a religioushate group called Cult Awareness Network and their sister groupcalled American Family Foundation. Now, I don't know if you've heardof these people, but it's the same as the KKK would be with theblacks. I think if you interviewed a neo-Nazi and asked them totalk about the Jews, you would get a similar result to what you havehere. The thing I find disingenuous is that it's not commented upon,and yet, in fact, your correspondent Forrest and Deanna Lee wereaware of this fact. And not only that, that is the source of wherethey, they received these people to talk to. They didn't find themrandomly--

Koppel: Well, if I may just interrupt for a moment: You realize there's alittle bit of a problem in getting people to talk critically aboutthe Scientology because, quite frankly, they're scared.

Miscavige: Oh, no, no, no, no.

Koppel: Well, I'm telling you--

Miscavige: No, no, no, no. Let me tell you--

Koppel: I'm telling you people are scared.

Miscavige: Let me explain something to you. The most disingenuous thing isthat you have those people. Now, let's not give the American publicthe wrong impression, that these are people that randomly were pulledin from around the world and that they decided to talk againstScientology. Those people aren't scared and they've been loudlyspeaking in the press. You showed me a book you had before this showthat has many detractors, same ones, so they're not reallyfrightened. That's a good story--

Koppel: Actually, that wasn't a book, it was a collection of articles--

Miscavige: Let me finish.

Koppel: …that has been written about you and the church.

Miscavige: But the same people were quoted.

Koppel: No. What I was saying is the reason, perhaps, that we only hear fromthose folks is that there are a lot of other people who might beconsidered detractors of the church, and they, who do not belong toany organization, are, quite frankly, afraid to come out and speakpublicly.

Miscavige: Well, I'm sorry, no, I'm sorry, that story doesn't hold water,because I'll tell you, from my perspective, the person gettingharassed is myself and the church. Let me give you an example. We didmake access possible for Forrest. That isn't to say that he tookadvantage of it, Ted. For instance, the subject of money comes up, itcomes up routinely, and I'm sure we might bring it up later on inthis show. But I, in fact, had the highest contributors of Scientologygathered up so that Forrest could interview them, to ask them whythey gave money to the church and how much they had, and believe me,it's larger figures than these people are talking about. He told mehe didn't have time. I said, "Please, I mean, they're here." He said,"No, I don't have time, I don't want to see 'em." I offered for himto go down to our church headquarters in Clearwater, Fla., where2,000 parishioners are there at any given time from all over theworld. In other words, he would get a cross-selection of peoplefrom Germany, England, California, Florida, Spain, Italy, you nameit. Didn't want to go, didn't have time. So to represent also thatthis is what the church puts forth isn't so. Here's what I find wrongand here's what I find the common mistake the media makes. I can giveyou a hundred thousand Scientologists who will say unbelievablypositive things about their church to every one you add on there, andI not only am upset about those people not being interviewed, theyare, too. And the funny thing about it, and why you find this notreally being that one who speaks in the media, is because not justmyself, any Scientologist, will open up a paper, will watch thisprogram, they're probably laughing right now, saying, "That isn'tScientology." That's what makes media. Media is controversy. Iunderstand that. And if you really looked at the big picture ofwhat's happening in Scientology, it isn't really controversial,certainly to a Scientologist.

Koppel: Okay. We are going to have to take a break.

Miscavige: Very good.

Koppel: I hope you understand that there's a little bit of a paradox in yoursaying, you know, "We're not going to get a chance to listen to whatScientology is really about"; we have with us, after all, since youwere courteous enough to join us--

Miscavige: Oh, absolutely, I'm just trying-- I'm just trying to correct this,that's all.

Koppel: I understand, and we're going to be spending the rest of this hour,in which I'll have a chance to talk to you and you can clear up someof the misconceptions we have.

Miscavige: Absolutely.

Koppel: Okay?

Miscavige: Okay.

Koppel: We'll continue our discussion in a moment.

("Dianetics," a best-seller for a record 100 consecutive weeks(1986-1988).)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: I'd like to begin, Mr. Miscavige, with, I guess, the kind of broadquestion that perhaps folks at home may be asking themselves rightnow. But let me be the guinea pig for a moment. See if you canexplain to me why I would want to be a Scientologist.

Miscavige: Because you care about yourself and life itself. Scientology, theword means study of life, study of knowledge, and that's where it is. It takes up all areas of life itself, things that are integral andmaxims that are related to life and very existence. Let me give youan example. It's better if I take that, because it is such a broad-ranging subject covering so many different areas, the subject ofcommunication. This is something that major breakthroughs exist inScientology, being able to communicate in the world around you. And Ithink everybody would agree that this is an important subject. Well,there's an actual formula for communication which can be understood.You can drill on this formula of communication, and learn to drill,but moreover, take the person who has trouble communicating, has--Well, for some reason he can't -- anxiety, whatever.

Koppel: I'll tell you what. Let's stick with me, okay? So far in life Ihaven't had a whole lot of trouble communicating. Now see if you cancommunicate to me what it is that you're going to be able to do forme that makes me a better communicator.

Miscavige: Well, I don't-- In Scientology you don't do anything for somebodyelse. Scientology is something that requires somebody's activeparticipation.

Koppel: Then, fine, I--

Miscavige: It certainly-- Let me explain something--

Koppel: I want to participate, I want to be active completely. We arelooking theoretically--

Miscavige: What in your life, Ted? What in your life do you not feel is right,that you would like help?

Koppel: I feel perfectly comfortable with my life. I like my job, I'm happywith my family, I love my wife, I'm healthy. I'm perfectly content,that's why I'm asking you what is it you can do for me.

Miscavige: Well-- Well, number one, I would never try to talk you into thatScientology's for you. You see, that's the funny thing about this, asif I'm now going to give a sales pitch to you on Scientology. Believeme, Scientology's valuable enough that it doesn't require any salespitch. But let's look at it this way, then, what Scientology does. Ifyou look out across the world today, you could say that if you take aperson who's healthy, doing well, like yourself, you'd say that thatperson is normal, not a crazy, not somebody who's psychotic, you lookat a wall and they call it an elephant. Would you agree with me onthat?

Koppel: So far I've got no problem.

Miscavige: Okay. And you can see people below that, and crazy people, criminals,that I think society in general will look at and say, "That breed ofperson hasn't something quite right because they're not up to thislevel of personality." You can understand that. Well, we inScientology are not-- You see, all past attempts have been to bringman up to somebody's standard of what's normal. What we are trying todo in Scientology is take somebody from this higher level and movethem up to greater ability. You see, we're interested in the--

Koppel: What about those folks "down there"?

Miscavige: Well, yes, no, you wouldn't-- We don't ignore them. But my point isthis: Scientology is there to help the able become more able. The guywho's going around, he's working, he's trying to make it, thesepeople generally have something in their life that they would like toimprove and, in any event, if you can increase that person's ability,the one who's chipping in, the one who's able, and bring him uphigher, this sphere of influence that he affects in the world aroundhim can be much greater, and he can get on and do better.

Koppel: Now, Mr. Miscavige, when you and I talked the first time, a few monthsago, I said to you I was going to come after you on some of theseissues. I am a cynic, by nature. I guess that's why I like being areporter. What you have described to me there fits perfectly with theimage that I have of Scientology. Namely, you're interested in folkswho are producing. Another way of saying that is you're interested infolks who've got money and who can pay to work their way up theScientology ladder.

Miscavige: Well, you see, that's where you miss the point, because in fact, youknow, this subject of money comes up, but you've got the wrong issuethere. The subject of money is, where's it going. You see, anotherpart that isn't in that piece, the money in Scientology isn't goingto me. It's not going to my colleagues. That's a fact. That's a fact.You can call up the IRS and find that fact out. They've audited ourrecords and seen all of that, and none of that money is goinganywhere. As a matter of fact, the officials in the church are paidfar less and live far more frugal existences than any other churchleader. Our money goes to social causes that we accept. You takethese people. We are the largest social reform group in the world, dofar more than any other church. For the last two years we have beenvoted the community outreach group of the year in Los Angeles.

Koppel: By whom?

Miscavige: By the local city council. The senate of California passed aresolution that's for our work with underprivileged children inCalifornia. We work on getting drug addicts off drugs. We supportNarconon, which is a drug rehabilitation center using the drugrehabilitation technology of L. Ron Hubbard. There are 33 centersaround the world. Over 100,000 people have been gotten off drugs. Wesponsor educational programs. Several years ago in just-- Wait, injust one instance, we worked with--

Koppel: I don't want to minimize any of that--

Miscavige: But wait--

Koppel: But how does that make your group the-- How did you put it -- thatyou do more to help?--

Miscavige: Social reforms, helping people.

Koppel: Social reform--

Miscavige: Sure.

Koppel: …than any other group in the world. More than the Catholic Church,more than--

Miscavige: Well, no, more accurately is per size. And when you put it in thatrate -- in other words, how big Scientology is compared to any others --the amount that we do on that subject, there's not even anybodycomparable.

Koppel: Okay. We've got to take a break, we'll continue our discussion withDavid Miscavige in a moment.("Dianetics," sales worldwide 14.6 million, languages 22)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: During one of Forrest Sawyer's pieces a moment ago, we heard one ofyour colleagues talking about psychiatry, right?

Miscavige: Right.

Koppel: You guys are deaf on psychiatry. The criticism that was made was thatthis is foreign to the United States. He referred to its origin inNazism and Communism. And that your religion, Scientology, is an"American" religion. Fair enough so far?

Miscavige: Well, American-of-the-mind. Yeah. That's right.

Koppel: What does that do for Christianity, Judaism, Hinduism, Buddhism,Taoism and all the other isms that also did not--

Miscavige: Oh, I think--

Koppel: …originate in this country?

Miscavige: Well, no, that isn't really the point. The point there is this --that those people, the Fascists, the Communists, have used psychiatryto further their ends. That's just a fact. I mean, you want to lookat the studies that brought about the Holocaust of the Jews, that theNazis justified killing the Jews, they were done at the Max PlanckInstitute of Psychiatry in Leipzig, Germany, and that justified thekilling of six million people. If you look at the report that evenForrest Sawyer did on mental institutions in Russia -- several monthsago he did this -- you saw that that was a tool of the state. That'sthe point he's making there. But let me tell you what our realproblem is. Number one, understand this. Psychiatry, psychology, thatcomes from the word psyche. Psyche means soul. These people havepreempted the field of religion, not just Scientology, every otherreligion. They right now practice and preach the fact that man is ananimal, and I guess that is where philosophically we're at odds withthem. But to understand what this war is, this is not something thatwe started. In fact, 22 days after "Dianetics: The Modern Science ofMental Health" came out, the attacks from the American PsychiatricAssociation started. This was the first popular book on the mind everin existence, it was running up the best-seller list, it waspopular with the people. I have the letter sent out by the man whowas in the American Psychiatric Association asking for ad hominumreviews on the subject of Dianetics. These people absolutely feltthat we were cutting across their vested interests, and the lengthswith which they have gone to destroy Scientology and Dianetics and L.Ron Hubbard is absolutely mind-boggling. They attempted to do sothrough the 1950s. First they tried to attack L. Ron Hubbard'scredibility, then they recruited the American Medical Association andthe Food and Drug Administration, and they then proceeded toinfiltrate our organization.

Koppel: May I--

Miscavige: No, no, let me finish--

Koppel: May I stop you just for a moment? Because, you know, when you talkabout undermining L. Ron Hubbard's credibility -- and again, I have noidea whether that video and the tape that we heard--

Miscavige: Yeah, but why don't touch on that?

Koppel: …that we heard was representative of L. Ron Hubbard. But when I hearabout a man talking about having been taken out to the Van Allenspace radiation belt of space ships that were essentially the samething as the DC-8, I've got to tell you, I mean, if we're talkingabout this man's credibility, that certainly raises some questions inmy mind about his credibility.

Miscavige: Okay. Well, let me ask you, have you read any books on Dianetics orScientology?

Koppel: I've been reading little else over the last two days.

Miscavige: You see, here--

Koppel: I must confess, I'm not a student of--

Miscavige: But you haven't read "Dianetics" or any books on Scientology?

Koppel: You're absolutely right.

Miscavige: Okay, fine. Then that's why you would make a comment like that? Imean, let's not joke around here. That bit that Forrest did therepulled out of context items. And let's not forget something else, bythe way. I told Forrest Sawyer -- and I was open about this the wholetime, I have been in communication with "Nightline" numerous times -- Isaid, "Forrest, if something comes up, you want to bring me up anallegation, you confront me it before this so I can do away with thisgarbage and not have to do it on the program." "Dave, I promise youI'll do it." Numerous calls have been put in to him. I have neverheard it from him. I never heard about these. To do that is takeanything out of context. Ted, when I talk about--

Koppel: Can you--

Miscavige: No, but let me just give you an analogy.

Koppel: You know that there are going to be a lot of folks out there -- andI'm sure there are a lot of Scientologists, and I don't want tooffend anyone who truly believes this -- but there are a lot of peopleout there who will look at that. You say it was taken out of context.Take a minute, if you would, and see if you can put it into contextfor us so that it does not sound ridiculous. Because, quite frankly,the way it sounded there, it sounded ridiculous.

Miscavige: Okay. Well, let me tell you-- Let me ask you to do this, then: I wantyou to take the Catholic Church and take right now and explain to me,to make sense that the Virgin Mary was a virgin, scientificallyimpossible, unless we're talking about something-- Okay, I'll be likeyou. I'll be the cynic. If we're talking about artificialinsemination, how could that be? If you're talking about going out toheaven, xcept we have a space shuttle going out there, we have theApollo going out there, you do that. I'm not here--

Koppel: I will--

Miscavige: Wait--

Koppel: I will--

Miscavige: I'm not here to talk--

Koppel: Let me do it, and you're-- You were a Catholic as a child, right?

Miscavige: Yeah.

Koppel: So you know full well that those issues are questions of faith. Areyou telling me that what we have heard L. Ron Hubbard say on thisbroadcast this evening, that they, to Scientologists, are issues offaith? If that's what you tell me, then that's fine.

Miscavige: No, no. As a matter of fact--

Koppel: Then it doesn't have to be explained logically.

(crosstalk)

Miscavige: Talk about the Van Allen Belt or whatever is that,that forms no part of current Scientology, none whatsoever.

Koppel: But what did he mean when he was talking about it?

Miscavige: Well, you know, quite frankly, this tape here, he's talking about theorigins of the universe, and I think you're going to find that inany, any, any religion, and I think you can make the same mockery ofit. I think it's offensive that you're doing it here, because I don'tthink you'd do it somewhere else.

Koppel: I'm not mocking it. I'm asking you a question, and you know, you turnit around and ask me about Catholicism. I say we're talking aboutareas of faith.

Miscavige: Well, it's not even a matter of faith, because Scientology is aboutyou, yourself and what you do. You're bringing up something thatisn't part of current Scientology, that isn't something thatScientologists study, that is part of some tape taken from, I have noidea, and asking me about it and asking me to put it in context. ThatI can't do.

Koppel: All right. So this has nothing to do with your faith today?

Miscavige: If you read any books on Scien-- No. Van Allen Belt? Absolutely not.Nothing.

Koppel: All right. Okay. We're going to continue our discussion in just amoment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: And we're back once again with David Miscavige. I'm going to let youget to the point you want to get to, but I was astonished, during thebreak you told me you had never heard that tape before, the L. RonHubbard tape.

Miscavige: No, I'd never heard that. No. I'm not-- I mean, it may exist here,but I haven't heard it. I mean, I don't know if you understand, thereare 6,000 lectures by Mr Hubbard. There are over 20 million words ofprinted words in Scientology, and all of these have been madeavailable in Scientology, so if it is there, we'll find it. I don'tthink anything's being hidden, either. I just personally haven'theard that tape, no.

Koppel: Okay. Now, you wanted to get back to the issue of the psychiatrists.

Miscavige: Yes.

Koppel: And let me, if I may, by way of introduction to that, I did notinterrupt you before, but you were talking about the use ofpsychiatry in Nazi Germany, the use of psychiatry in the SovietUnion.

Miscavige: Yes.

Koppel: I would argue, and I think most psychiatrists in this country wouldargue, that what we're talking about here was the misuse ofpsychiatry in both those countries.

Miscavige: Well, okay. And if we're talking about the misuse, fine. In anyevent, I think any use that ends up killing people is a misuse, and Ithink that's a hell of a record to have. But let me get back to whereI was, because it does tie in. You say the misuse, but I don't knowif you're aware that there was a plan in 1955 in this country, Ted,to repeat what was done in Russia. There was going to be a Siberia,U.S.A., set up on a million acres in Alaska to send mental patients. Theywere going to lessen the commitment laws. You could basically getinto an argument with somebody and be sent up there. This sounds veryodd. Nobody's ever heard about it. That's in no small part thanks tothe Church of Scientology. I must say, though, that when that billwas killed in Congress, the war was on with psychiatry where theydeclared war on us, and I want you to understand something--

Koppel: Let me just ask you to be specific on that. You are talking about abill having been brought into Congress for the setting aside of amillion acres in Alaska--

Miscavige: You got it.

Koppel: …for people--

Miscavige: To send a mental health center.

Koppel: …to send mental health patients? What was-- Who was the sponsor ofthat bill? What was the bill number? I mean, we'd-- I'm sure we'regoing to--

(crosstalk)

Miscavige: Well, I have a copy of it, and if you want it I can give it to you.All of these documents--

Koppel: I would. Let me see it.

Miscavige: All of these documents were made available to Forrest. If they'renot on here, I don't know why, but I do have them and I will make itavailable to you.

Koppel: Okay. Now, was that bill ever voted on? Did it ever come out ofcommittee?

Miscavige: Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. Oh, yes. It was a major, major, major flapfor the psychiatrists when it got voted down, because then the sloganaround the country began, "Siberia USA," and it was really the firsttime that psychiatry had been denigrated publicly, that they weren'tthe science that they had been promoting themselves to be. And theytook it upon themselves then to start dealing with anybody who wouldoppose them. They definitely saw Dianetics and Scientology asopposing them, not only in terms of their brutal treatments, such aselectric shock and prefrontal lobotomy, which are specific thingsthat we're against, but also for the fact of the people that weregoing to Dianetics and Scientology and not there. They went to theFood and Drug Administration, they went to the American MedicalAssociation, they arranged an informant to go into our headquartershere in Washington, D.C., and infiltrate the organization over the nextfive years. I have documents on this, too. They wanted to getsomebody in the church to recommend medical treatment, couldn't getthem to do it, walk in and say, "I want to be cured medically."People wouldn't do it. They finally went so far as getting the headof the D.C. morals, the moral department of the D.C. police to send hisdaughter in as an informant, pregnant, to get an abortion, to ask thechurch to do it, a frame job. The church didn't go for it. They didthen raid the church.

Koppel: When you say "they," you're talking about who now?

Miscavige: I am talking-- This is the APA, AMA, Food and Drug Administration.These people were all coordinated doing these activities, and it wenton for five years, Ted, and you have to understand, we only find thisout recently. They then proceed to raid our church. Now, thefollowing takes place. They killed one of our executive directors.They literally murdered-- The Food and Drug Administration hired aninformant to go into our organization in Seattle, Wash., hiswife was there. He wasn't for Scientology, she was. They said,"Great, report on her and report on Scientology." He proceeded to doso. Several weeks later, murdered the head of our organization. TheFood and Drug Administration never told us that it was theirinformant. Instead -- wait -- instead, they got with the D.C.-- I mean,with the Seattle Police, and went undercover in the organization onthe homicide investigation to rifle our files. At that same time --and here's where the media comes in -- a man interviewed L. RonHubbard for The Saturday Evening Post. He came out with anunbelievably bad article in that magazine. Of course, Scientologysaid, "You're part of this Food and Drug Administration thing," andof course, he said, "Oh, excuse me, you just sound like the fringe,"which is very easy to say. What do I find out 20 years later throughthe Freedom of Information Act? I find out that this man, a man namedJames Phelan, had been, well, The Saturday Evening Post had beenwritten to by the Food and Drug Administration to get a discreditingarticle written on Mr. Hubbard and Scientology to help their caseagainst us, that this man then went and interviewed Mr. Hubbard. Heinterviewed him for two days. Mr. Hubbard provided him with tapes andtranscripts. The man came back here to the United States. Mr. Hubbardwas in England and provided those transcripts to the Food and DrugAdministration for their case a full week before he ever wrote hisarticle.

Koppel: We have got to take another break. We'll continue our discussion in amoment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: Mr. Miscavige, I must admit, I'm curious. You have been the head ofthe Church of Scientology now for what, a little over 10 years?

Miscavige: Not really the head there, but certainly a senior Scientologist, yes,Ted.

Koppel: Okay. During all that time -- you just told me again, earlier thisevening -- you have not done any interviews.

Miscavige: No.

Koppel: (A), Tell me why. And (B), why now?

Miscavige: Why now? Okay. Why not? Let me tell you something: I once added upall the press that had been written about me before the firstreporter called trying to speak to me, and from around the world, itstacked up to four-and-a-half feet. By then, it was myth and legend.And then only on one or two occasions can I think of that somebodyhas asked to speak to me, but never to interview me. It was always,"I want to ask you about some allegations." And to that degree, I'mnot interested. I gave you the story about this reporter. Quitefrankly, from my view, a lot of the people who have written storieson Scientology are doing it from a certain pitch, they already havetheir story somewhat made up. They've already made up their mind.It's a waste of my time, I have to be honest. Why now? It's live.

Koppel: Okay. It is live. As you know, initially, I mean, we wanted--

Miscavige: And you asked.

Koppel: That's-- Well, we certainly did. We asked, and we have been talkingto each other now--

Miscavige: Sure, absolutely.

Koppel: …and negotiating now for about nine months.

Miscavige: That really has never happened, Ted.

Koppel: Initially, we wanted you to come on because you folks were reallyupset about that cover story that Time magazine did.

Miscavige: Yes.

Koppel: Now, a lot of people have been upset by stories in the press aboutthem. Certainly, a cover story has more impact than just any old storyin a magazine, and Time is a big magazine, but one might argue thatyour response to it, your reaction to it, was huge. I think Forrestsaid you spent $3 million in USA Today alone, with some of those full-page ads, double-truck ads, that you ran. Didn't you also runsome TV ads and radio ads on that?

Miscavige: No, nothing on Time. And by the way, when you say the $3 million,that, there was an advertising campaign. You have to understand, thefirst three weeks of it were about the Time magazine and correctingthe falsehoods on it.

Koppel: All right.

Miscavige: That was a campaign that ran for 12 weeks. The rest of it wasattempting to inform the public of what Scientology was.

Koppel: All right. Now, I told you, we've got to take a break in exactly oneminute, so I may have to cut you short if you go longer on this--

Miscavige: Okay.

Koppel: …but why were you so-- What was it about the Time magazine storythat so upset you?

Miscavige: Because it wasn't reporting on anything, it was an attempt to causesomething. Richard Behar is a hater.

Koppel: Behar.

Miscavige: Behar, he had done an article on Scientology three years earlier inconjunction with the Internal Revenue Service. The man was on recordon two occasions attempting to get Scientologists kidnapped. That isan illegal act. When you get somebody like that doing an article,you're not too interested.

Koppel: All right. Let's leave that hanging in the air, and I promise we'llcome back to it--

Miscavige: Okay.

Koppel: I think both you and Mr. Behar deserve more on that subject. I'll beback in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

Koppel: As you can see, our hour is up, but (A), the opportunity to talk toMr. Miscavige is such a rare one, and (B), we really do have someissues that have been left hanging, that we're going to go a fewminutes over our allotted time. You made the charge a moment ago thatMr. Behar at Time magazine, the reporter who wrote the cover story forTime, that he had, what, conspired with someone to try to get someonefrom Scientology kidnapped?

Miscavige: No, no, he was-- He had written an original article and some peoplehad called him up and he was telling them to kidnap Scientologistsout.

Koppel: He was telling them to kidnap Scientologists.

Miscavige: Yes, and get them forcibly deprogrammed which, according to TedPatrick, who was the father of deprogramming--

Koppel: All right.

Miscavige: …It always includes kidnapping, usually assault and battery, andcertainly with the intent to commit a felony.

Koppel: All right. Now, kidnapping, as you well know, is a federal crime inthis country.

Miscavige: Well, let me tell you something, there is one person who he used inthat article that was, to be asked of him to infiltrate at ourchurch in New Jersey. He didn't quote this in his article. I didn'tfind out until actually about a month ago, and the person has justbeen arrested. As a matter of fact, four people from this same groupI mentioned at the beginning of this show have just been put underarrest last week for forcible kidnapping of persons from anotherfaith. You have to understand something, Ted. These people that healigns with, this Cult Awareness Network, which every one of thesepeople are a part of--

Koppel: Although I told you during a break that my producer told me inearpiece right after it, I was going to leave it alone, that all ofthose people maintain they are not in that cult awareness group.

Miscavige: Well, no, they don't, because I'll tell you right now, I spoke to--Well, that's just not the case. But in any event--

Koppel: Can we stay on Mr. Behar for a moment?

Miscavige: Absolutely.

Koppel: Because you have made what is really a very serious charge, and thathe was involved--

Miscavige: Oh, he admits to it.

Koppel: …that he was involved in kid-- I'm sure he doesn't admit to being--

Miscavige: No, he admits to wanting to get a Scientologist kidnapped.

Koppel: …to being involved in kidnapping. That would be a very seriousadmission, as you well know.

Miscavige: He absolutely admits to wanting to get a Scientologist kidnapped. That's in your Washington Post.

Koppel: So why didn't you bring charges against him?

Miscavige: He didn't succeed. He didn't succeed. Our point is this-- Ted, Ted,you're missing the point.

Koppel: As I said to you before, there is such a thing as attempted rape,attempted murder, attempted kidnapping. It's also a crime.

Miscavige: Yeah, but they didn't make it. They didn't make it. I mean, the pointis this.

Koppel: That doesn't matter. It's still a crime.

Miscavige: Okay. The person would have to bring charges. I think you're reallymissing the issue, Ted, because my point is this: That man representshimself as an objective reporter. Here he is on record a full threeyears before he wrote this article, stating that he feltScientologists should be kidnapped to change their religion. Secondof all, let's look at this article, and let's not fool ourselves. Itwasn't an objective piece. It was done at the behest of Eli Lilly.They were upset because of the damage we had caused to their killerdrug Prozac. They set up that article. They used their advertisingdollar to force it to run, and that's the facts.

Koppel: All right. Now, if that is the fact, you're a careful man. I'm surethat you have evidence of that.

Miscavige: Well, here's what I do have of that. I do have a man here inWashington, D.C., named Duffy Wall, another one named Walter Moore.These are lobbyists for Eli Lilly. We have Burson Marsteller, the PRfirm for Eli Lilly. The reason I'm saying this, you have tounderstand, this isn't my charge. I'm telling you what they say.After that article came out, they were around town here saying, "Wecaused that article on Scientology on behalf of Eli Lilly to helpthem out."

Koppel: You have affidavits to that?

Miscavige: Let me tell you what else I have.

Koppel: You have affidavits?

Miscavige: From them? Of course not. You think they'd admit it?

Koppel: Well, I mean, you're--

Miscavige: But they're the ones who said it.

Koppel: You're saying they said it, I'm trying--

Miscavige: Let me tell you what I do have.

Koppel: Go ahead.

Miscavige: I go one step further. I then later found out -- and you didn't knowthis -- that Eli Lilly ordered a reprint of 750,000 copies of Timemagazine before it came out, reported in The Washington Post. Butmost importantly, here's what I do have: I put in a call to thepeople, the advertising firms, who set this up. I called up JWT, J.Walter Thompson, in New York. I spoke to the CEO. He said he wouldlook into it and get back to me. He never did. I called up a man overin England who owns all these advertising and PR conglomerates forEli Lilly, a man named Martin Sorrell. Ted, I asked him 10 times onthe phone to deny that he had set this up on their behalf. Hewouldn't do it.

Koppel: All right--

Miscavige: We put in a call to Eli Lilly. Their response was, "We can neitherconfirm nor deny." This is a pretty heavy allegation I'm making. I'monly making it because what I heard from their people, and they won'tdeny it, so for you to challenge me on it, you have to understand,they're not challenging me on it, and furthermore, our story thatcame out in USA Today covers this entire matter. They haven't calledme once to correct any fact in it.

Koppel: When you say your story, you mean your advertisement.

Miscavige: Well, there was actually an insert in there that laid out the entireway that that came about.

Koppel: Let us get back, during the few minutes we have left in thisbroadcast, to discussing Scientology a little, and I made asuggestion at the beginning of this program, or near the beginning ofthe program that, in order to progress within your church, it costsmoney. Right? If I'm poor, how far can I progress?

Miscavige: Pretty far.

Koppel: How far?

Miscavige: Well, I'll tell you this, by the time you started getting anywherenear the top, I guarantee you, you wouldn't be poor anymore, becausegenerally people in Scientology do better if they honestly make it.

Koppel: But let us assume there are some folks out there who are just poor.They don't have any money--

Miscavige: You know, I don't--

Koppel: They don't have any friends or relatives who have money. Is thisthe right religion for them?

Miscavige: Oh, absolutely. This is the right religion for anybody. InScientology, you're dealing with yourself, you see. Here, we havethis in common with all religions of earth. All religions of earthtry to help man to be better, and to cause him spiritual improvement.Now, most-- In the Judeo-Christian society, they say if you havefaith and you live your life that you'll achieve spiritual salvationin the afterlife. We believe in spiritual salvation, but in the hereand now. And that's what we deal with.

Koppel: I think both Judaism and Christianity, or the proponents of those tworeligions, would argue with you that they certainly set forth quite anumber of rules and recommendations and--

Miscavige: Oh, in the now, no, I'm not disputing that. I'm not-- I am not--

Koppel: And precepts for this world also.

Miscavige: I am not trying to badmouth any other religion, and Ted, I wouldnever do that. All I'm saying is that they have their way. What'sdifferent in Scientology is how we approach it. There are higherlevels of awareness as a spiritual being, and that's what we'redealing with in Scientology. Now, for me to talk to you about thisand for you to have a reality on it, I don't think I'm going to getthat and I'll tell you why. You don't have a reality on it. You see,Scientology is a very personal thing. You ask why somebody would doit. I'm not making the claims for the church, Ted. Millions ofScientologists around the world are making that claim. You ask them,they are happier, they do feel they're more able, they do do betterin life, they know it has helped them. They say it. You can't takethat away. And just like I wouldn't take that away from any otherreligion, when somebody then comes about and says that Scientologydoesn't do that, are they telling me I don't have my own feelings?

Koppel: No, I'm just asking you, and it strikes me as a reasonable question,but if you can't answer it, you can't answer it. But there must be away of explaining, without going into any of the innermost secrets ofthe Church of Scientology -- and I understand, your church has somesecrets -- there has to be a way of explaining what it is you dothat's different.

Miscavige: What is it that we do? That's not very difficult at all. We approachit on a one-on-one basis. There is absolutely a technology ofScientology. There's a philosophy which covers the subject of life. Istarted talking about communication earlier on. Well, of course, itcovers interpersonal relationships, a million subjects. I don't haveenough time all night to go into them. But separately, there is atechnology that's applied to you as an individual, actual one-on-one counseling where you, you look-- Well, number one, you have tounderstand the first premise. You are a spiritual being. You look,you find out more about yourself, who you are, where you are, whereyou have been. A man who can look back and do that is a verycourageous individual. A lot of that includes looking back on yourown past and areas where you went astray. That's similar to otherreligions.

Koppel: It's also similar to psychiatry.

Miscavige: Listen, I'm not similar to psychiatry at all. I brought one piece ofpaper here because I knew this was going to come up. This ispsychology, which covers the subject of religion. It's called"Religiosity and Pre-Oedipal Fixation"--

Koppel: Let me stop you one second. I just want to tell any members of ouraudience who may just have joined us and not have been with us, myguest is David Miscavige. You are now the head of the Church ofScientology.

Miscavige: Yes.

Koppel: Right. Okay. Please.

Miscavige: This is what they say about religion. They say abstract-religious--

Koppel: Who is this again?

Miscavige: This is out of the Journal of Genetic Psychology. This is March 1985,and I want you to understand why I don't like being compared to thesepeople, because I'm in a completely separate realm. "Religious beliefand observance derive from pre-Oedipal oral and anal drives,according to psychoanalytic theory, specifically belief in deity andsuch concepts as the afterlife are consonant with oral needs fornurturance from an omnipotent benefactor, coupled with the denial ofdeath. Observance of ritual and particularly church attendance is afunction of the anal need for regular activity and the analcompulsive need for regularity and repetitiveness." This is anoffense to any religion. I am not like these people. We deal with thespirit, they say man's a body, we separate right there. We'reinterested in bringing persons to a higher plane. They deal with theneurotics. They want to bring them up and tell him how to solve hisproblems; in Scientology, Ted, we want to bring the individual up toa higher level ability so that he's more intelligent, he has betterreaction time, he's more able and intelligent so that he can handlehis life better. Now you've handled something.

Koppel: Explain to me-- And again, going back to the pieces that we sawbefore and, by necessity, even though we ended up doing 15 minutes onthese pieces, you end up compressing things.

Miscavige: Sure.

Koppel: And I don't want to lead people astray. Talk to me for a moment aboutthe E-meters. Those are those handles that you see people holdingin the pictures, and they are dealing now with an auditor, an auditoris the person who-- This is the one-to-one--

Miscavige: Well, here's what happens.

Koppel: Yeah.

Miscavige: It could be me and you sitting across from each other, maybe--

(crosstalk)

Koppel: Okay, let's say I'm holding the E-meter. What are you doing andwhat is that E-meter doing? What is it capable of doing?

Miscavige: Okay, what it is capable of doing is registering what's botheringyou. It is a guide, it doesn't tell you anything, it doesn't yellout. Well, it's a meter there, and it sends a little electrical flowthrough your body. You're holding something there, very tiny. Youcannot feel it. It shows a reaction. What does that reaction mean?That reaction just says there's a reaction. You thought somethingabout it, or something that has some form of mental energy.

Koppel: A reaction to what, your saying words, and it's almost like freeassociation, or-- I mean, what am I reacting to?

Miscavige: Listen, stop comparing it to psychotherapy, because it isn't.

Koppel: No, no, I'm just asking. What am I--

Miscavige: It is so-- And by the way-okay, there are a million things youcould do, but you take up an individual subject of a person's life.I'll bring up the subject of communication; if that isn't you, fine.People do have problems with this subject. Very specific questionsare asked, the person answers them. He looks, answers the question,answers it, to handle areas of upset that are upsetting him. He knowswhen they are no longer upsetting him. He finds out finally forhimself why they're upsetting him, and they no longer do. That iswhat's happening.

Koppel: What I'm still a little bit lost on is, presumably you and I could dothat--

Miscavige: Oh, absolutely.

Koppel: Right now, right?

Miscavige: Well, you'd have to want to participate.

Koppel: Fine, and-- But why do we need that piece of equipment?

Miscavige: Oh, because it's far more accurate. I mean, originally in Dianeticsand Scientology, there was no meter, and you would look at a person--

Koppel: Okay. So what is the E-meter--

Miscavige: …and you'd look at a person. I will tell you--

Koppel: …because I'm looking at a needle sweeping across an arc, right?

Miscavige: Okay, you would look at the person and hear something similar. Ican see your face flush, or I can see you cry, or I can see yousmile. You can observe people, right? Well, not many people have anability to do that, and plus, that is pretty crude. What this doesis, when there's an area of upset, it registers. That's all it does.When the area of upset no longer exists, it doesn't register. That'sall it does. It is strictly a guide.

Koppel: And what is the auditor-- What is the auditor doing?

Miscavige: The communication is taking place between you and I. You see, we'rein there together. I'm asking something about you. You are interestedin finding out something about yourself. I'm there to help you findthat. But I'll tell you, here's where else we differ frompsychotherapy, psychology. Those people would tell you, "This is yourproblem." That's a pretty arrogant position to take, for that personto tell you what's going on, considering every individual on thisplanet is different. Scientology, we show you a way to find out foryourself. And do you know who knows when you've found out? You do.And if this still doesn't make sense to you, that's because youhaven't done it. I can't be more clear. First principle inScientology, by the way, Ted, you should understand is, in studyingthe subject or practicing it: Never, ever, ever believe it justbecause we say it's so. Only once you have experienced it yourselfand you find this concept to be true should you then consider it tobe true.

Koppel: Could you, just on the most basic level -- I mean, you say originallyit was done without the E-meter anyway -- could you, on the mostbasic level, do it with me right now?

Miscavige: Oh, absolutely not, because we're not in an environment here that isconducive to all the elements of auditing.

Koppel: Why? I mean, I'm perfectly comfortable here.

Miscavige: Well, here's why, because you're the interviewer here on the program.

Koppel: All right.

Miscavige: And you're the one who's in charge here on the program, and you'reinterested in doing a program. That instantly throws out the firstthree rudiments to doing this, it's not something--

Koppel: Okay. Fair enough.

Miscavige: As a matter of fact--

Koppel: No, I buy that. That's fair enough. One of the other, if you're notgoing to use the E-meter, though, Forrest also showed some of thepeople working with what, plasticine clay?

Miscavige: Oh, yeah. You know, I mean, there's a sort of misconception thatcomes out. That's part of the study technology of Scientology.

Koppel: Explain it.

Miscavige: There's a study technology developed by L. Ron Hubbard. He isolatedthe three barriers to study. You see, there's a technology that helpsyou study any subject. One of those is not having the mass in frontof you. I'll give you an example.

Koppel: Not having the what?

Miscavige: The mass of an object that you're studying in front of you. A goodexample, here we are in the studio and we have cameras all over theplace. Imagine you were going to school when you were 15 and you'restudying up on cameras and you've never seen one, okay? You wouldn'treally quite understand it too well. It'd be better if you had thecamera there that you could do it with. Taking something more crudethan that, where we're not talking about electronics, any given areaof study, the ability to demonstrate in clay a concept in theparagraph allows you to gain a greater understanding of that subject.This is something that he asked me about in the intro. There was apiece on it. But generally what people do is, they'll be studyingmaterials and then they will see if they really understand it bydemonstrating it in this clay, and if they can make a three-dimensional figure of it, it often serves to clarify that concept andalso show whether they understand it or not. And it's part of a studyprogram, it's not a process of Scientology, we're not looking to makepeople better with this. It's strictly a way of studying.

Koppel: Why is it necessary, in order to progress? I mean, some of the sumsthat are charged -- and I literally don't have them; it's notsomething I've tucked away in my memory -- but we're talking about, insome instances, to move from one level to the next level, $7,000,$10,000, $15,000. Huge sums. Why?

Miscavige: Yeah, well, okay, number one, we certainly do have a differentdonation system than other churches, although not all other churches.

Koppel: Donation?

Miscavige: Yeah, absolutely.

Koppel: You call it a donation.

Miscavige: Oh, absolutely, because there's people there who are donating to thechurch, period.

Koppel: I understand, but are there people there who are making that progress-- I mean, what, again, to get back to the person who doesn't have anymoney, what does he or she do?

Miscavige: He trains in the subject of Scientology, and then audits somebodyelse, and he can be audited by that person, and that's free. Yousee, people like to pull out the sexy part, I'd like to point out,Ted. The people that are complaining about it in your intro, the onegirl there that was complaining about it -- a girl named Vicki Aznaran,which, by the way, this is a girl who was kicked out for trying tobring criminals into the church, something she didn't mention.

Koppel: I think what-- I mean, you say a "girl." I think we're talking abouta grown woman, right?

Miscavige: A grown woman, excuse me.

Koppel: Yeah. I mean, and--

Miscavige: A lady, Vicki Aznaran.

Koppel: And you and she were at one point--

Miscavige: I know.

Koppel: …at one point rivals for the leadership of the--

Miscavige: Absolutely not. Absolutely not. I have no idea where Forrest got thatfrom. Absolutely not. She violated the mores and codes of the group.She was removed for it. I was a trustee of that corporation. Sheknows it. The words she said to me is, "I have no future inScientology." She wanted to bring bad boys into Scientology, herwords. Now--

Koppel: What you have just done is one of two things, and I'm not in aposition to judge which it is. Either you have made an accuratecharge against someone or, what a number of your critics and a numberof the pieces that have been written about the Church of Scientologysuggest is that when you have a critic before you, you destroy thosepeople.

Miscavige: Yeah? Well, let me tell you, that's easy to say--

Koppel: You smear them.

Miscavige: That's easy for the person to say, but she's the one on thatprogram smearing me. And let me tell you something else, this subjectdid come out before, Forrest did have it. I showed her depositiontestimony. She admitted in there that that is what she was trying todo. She admitted that's why she was pulled out. The fact that Forrestdidn't put that in there is extremely disingenuous. I'm not makingany new charge against her, and let's not also forget the fact thatshe is trying get $70 million out of the church, and I think thatexplains 70 million reasons why she would make up something likethat. I'm trying to get nothing from her.

Koppel: Has she sued the church?

Miscavige: Absolutely.

Koppel: For $70 million.

Miscavige: For $70 million.

Koppel: Where does that case stand right now?

Miscavige: The case'll drag on for years. It's just been dragging on and on.

Koppel: Then it's still in the court system.

Miscavige: Absolutely. Absolutely. But on the subject here, I mean, they bringthat out. Ted, it's simple for people to say that, except I'm not outthere leveling charges out of the blue against people. In fact,you've got to look at it this way. You've seen the amount of attacksleveled against my church. I haven't even bothered to come out todefend myself until this point, and I'm not even here to defendmyself. But if somebody makes a move like that and they saysomething, and they have an ulterior motive, I think it should beexplained. It's that simple. You had another example on there, aRoxanne Friend. This is a horrifying story. This girl was ill. I feelfor her.

Koppel: Another woman.

Miscavige: Another woman on there, excuse me, excuse me. I don't mean to saythat in a demeaning way. I'm sorry. She has a horrifying story ofhaving an illness of cancer, and the word in there is that we didn'tsent her to a church.

Koppel: To a doctor.

Miscavige: To a doctor, excuse me. In fact, she's been to a doctor 220 timeswhile she was in Scientology. In fact, when we sent her out of thechurch we asked her to please go to a medical doctor and see ifsomething was wrong.

Koppel: The charge, as I recall it, Mr. Miscavige, is that with many of thesepeople, not just with--

Miscavige: No, no, let me finish this one. Let me finish this one because it'simportant.

Koppel: …not just with Ms. Friend -- I'll let you get back to it in just asecond -- the charge is that you inevitably -- I don't mean youpersonally, I mean the church -- send people who complain of someillness to a doctor, but a doctor who is also a Scientologist.

Miscavige: I don't know where you got it. It's invented. I never heard it in mylife.

Koppel: So it's-- So if someone-- Well--

Miscavige: First time I heard it.

Koppel: It's not the first time, because you've read the L.A. Times series,and it was in the L.A. Times series.

Miscavige: Oh, if it was in the L.A. Times series, I didn't read that. Believe me,I don't read a report on Scientology from the L.A. Times to find outwhat it is, so I did not read that in detail.

Koppel: No, but you've got to understand what your critics are saying--

Miscavige: This is not so.

Koppel: …about you, right?

Miscavige: It's just not so. Not so at all. Just absolutely not so.

Koppel: Any Scientologist who wants to go to an outside doctor, no problem?

Miscavige: Anybody he wants. It's just an outrageous charge. I have no ideawhere it came from.

Koppel: Okay. The-- What do you call the folks who are up at the higher levelof your church, the ones in the uniforms? What is that--

Miscavige: Staff members, Sea-Org members of the church.

Koppel: Sea-Org? What does that stand for?

Miscavige: Sea Organization. Originally--

Koppel: S-E-A.

Miscavige: Yes, from the sea.

Koppel: Sea.

Miscavige: Yeah. Sure. Absolutely. From the ocean.

Koppel: What does that mean?

Miscavige: Well, originally this group of people were based on ships at sea, andthat's where the term Sea Organization came from.

Koppel: That was at a time when all kinds of folks were going after L. RonHubbard and he moved his operation out to sea?

Miscavige: Not because all kinds of folks were going after L. Ron Hubbard.

Koppel: Well, I mean, the IRS was going after him, weren't they, at thattime?

Miscavige: Well, let me tell you, I mean, you know, I went through theseearlier. You want to talk about them. It had nothing-- There was nocause-and-effect relationship to L. Ron Hubbard being at sea andthese people going after him and therefore he was leaving. But youwant to bring out all sorts of faults. Ted, let's be accurate here.There have been attacks leveled against Scientology. They uniformlyget reported by the media. The net result doesn't. Let me just gothrough them. I mentioned the Food and Drug Administration. Theytried this case for six years. They lost. It was headline press whenit came out. They lost the case, full religious recognition of thechurch. They passed their information to Australia. There was a fullinquiry down there. In 1982, the court ruled in our favor and issuedan apology stating that this was an embarrassing chapter in thehistory of that country. You talk about the attacks here. The realstory is this, Ted. A new organization, there are new ideas inScientology. These get attacked. It's not the first time in thehistory of the world that this has happened. This has happened tomany other groups. This happened to Christianity. Bring it up forwardto another religion. Mormonism, it happened to them. It happened tous. The attacks on us, though, I will say, in the last 40 years, areunprecedented and unrelenting, not even rivaled by any other groupduring that time period. And yet the Church of Scientology hassurvived throughout that entire time period, and grown and continueto grown, to grow. That is the real story of Scientology. And theonly way that can occur is if you have something beneficial to offerpeople, and Scientology does. You can talk about all of this. I candebate with you about that. You can go speak to a Scientologist, whichwe made available to "Nightline," and ask them what it has done forthem, and they do applaud it. The people who are detractors, anybodyhas critics. That's fine, and I don't-- And I have to tell you, Idon't mind somebody criticizing a valid fact in Scientology, Ted.I'll be the first one to deal with it. People within the church,there's various complaints here and there, little ones. I alwaysinvestigate them.

Koppel: Can you understand--

Miscavige: But wait, but what upsets me--

Koppel: …can you understand what-- Go ahead.

Miscavige: …is when one of these critics brings this up and your reporterdoesn't mention the fact that they are suing, or the fact that theywere removed-- And I've shown deposition testimony. You see, it's outof the realm of what I'm saying, the fact that another man wanted tokidnap Scientologists, and I showed the documents to your reporter,and he doesn't put them in. My complaint isn't that the people saidthem. My complaint is that the reporter didn't give the motive, andhe should have. He had it available to him and did not show it, itmakes it seem like these people are objective. You want to go aroundand check out the controversy it's created in the media because, Ted,like I said at the beginning of the show, there are 100,000Scientologists for every one detractor, and when you just show thosepeople, well, they've picked up the lines, they're coordinated, theyfind all little buttons to press and they all say the same ones, andthey're frightened. They're on the show. I spoke to Roxanne Friendover Christmas. I feel sorry for her, but you know what she said tome, Ted? She asked me at the end of our conversation, "Dave, pleasetell me, is it ever possible for me to come back to Scientology?"That's the real story, and that isn't on there.

Koppel: For every minute that we've spent in the report at the beginning, wehave spent roughly five minutes now with you and me talking. I mean,you are, after all-- We've gone almost an hour and a half--

(crosstalk)

Miscavige: Very well, and I appreciate it. That's right.

Koppel: Aren't you capable of responding? I mean, you keep saying, "Whydon't you go talk to the Scientologists?" You're the headScientologist. I'm--

Miscavige: Well, you have to understand this, if you want to understand whatbenefits people in Scientology, I can give you my own personal thing,but what I am not going to do here is tell you-- I am not going tomake claims for other people. What I'm telling you is the bestevidence is the successes of Scientology. Do you want to hear aboutmine?

Koppel: Sure.

Miscavige: I came to Scientology, I was a young man, I had an acute case ofasthma. I had been to doctor after doctor. Nothing could cure it. Myfather heard of Dianetics and Scientology, took me to an individual.I was with him for an hour. I used exactly what anybody can read in"Dianetics: The Modern Science of Mental Health." That asthmadisappeared for three years. I say three years because I'm not goingto tell you it went away forever. After that, it came up again and Idealt with it, and I don't have it now. I do five miles a day. I justdon't have that. Is that the greatest thing it's done for me? No, butat that point I certainly knew-- I certainly knew it was somethingbeneficial. I knew it. It's a personal story. What it has done for mesince then is just fabulous, but that is my own personal story. Thatis what the story is of Scientology. The successes are endless, Ted.You see, we talk about these. And that's why I was concerned aboutsuch an intro piece. The story -- 100,000 people off drugs -- that'shelp, that's good, I can give you these statistics.

Koppel: You were talking before about Narconon, right? Narconon operated inOklahoma, correct? The state of Oklahoma said, illegitimate group,tossed you out.

Miscavige: Well, there you go, now we're going to bring up a new allegation. Thestate of Oklahoma--

Koppel: Well, isn't it true?

Miscavige: No, they didn't, they didn't toss it out. It's still there andthat's in the court system. In fact, what happened, Ted, is thatvarious doctors came in to testify. The leading drug rehabilitationexperts in the country came in to testify--

Koppel: Well, who was--

Miscavige: Let me finish.

Koppel: Who was opposing it? Who was trying to get it out?

Miscavige: The psychiatrists. The mental health board. The leading doctorsacross the country, Forrest Tannen, another gentleman whose namedoesn't come to mind right now, testified in behalf. All thetestimony on the efficacy of Narconon program was all in favor of it.Studies have been done, governmental studies in Spain, in Sweden,found Narconon to be the most effective drug rehabilitation programin those countries. One man came in, a psychiatrist, he madestatements about the program. That man was also on record as stating-- and it's a man named Dr. Gellian West -- out at UCLA, he stated thatliving a drug-free existence is an antiquated position in today'ssociety. The judge in that case ruled that having that man talk aboutour drug rehabilitation program is similar to asking Saddam Husseinto report on the treatment of the Kuwaitis in Kuwait.

Koppel: So why is it still in the court system?

Miscavige: The mental health ward is the one who ruled on it, and we couldn'tunderstand the findings because all the testimony was positive. Bothhealth inspections they passed, and then at the last minute thesemental health people denied it--

Koppel: Just--

Miscavige: Hang on. I gave you the story, though. You want to know?

Koppel: Sure.

Miscavige: Just like the FDA, just like that, we get a level playing field, Ted. It always comes out. You're bringing up Narconon now, but you know--

Koppel: No, you brought it up, that's why I raised it.

Miscavige: Well, I didn't bring up the Oklahoma matter.

Koppel: That's correct.

Miscavige: And you brought that up.

Koppel: That is correct.

Miscavige: You want-- You know, if you-- I could have been on here two years agoand you would have brought something up, and it's over now. Therehave been these cases, but in the end, we come out on top, and I'mtelling you, Ted, there are a group of people on this planet who findus to be a threat to their existence, and they will do everything intheir power to stop us. And that is the mental health field. I didn'tpick a war with them. You can ask them if they feel this way, andthey will tell you that.

Koppel: One last quick area I want to go into. Explain to me what a "clear"is.

Miscavige: Okay. Well, the first book, Dianetics, talks about the mind. And thesubject of the mind-- Well, you have a mind, and I did this with youbefore, but anybody can see what their mind is. Their mind iscomposed of pictures. Close your eyes, look at a cat, and you'll seea cat. And those pictures you're seeing are your mind. There's your--There are parts of this mind. If you use your analytical mind, whichyou do your thinking with, which is very analytical -- a perfectcomputer is a good analogy. And there is a reactive mind, and this isthe mind that kicks in during any moments of trauma, stress,unconsciousness. It is recording, a series of pictures of theseincidents. Unknown to the individual, at a later time, theseincidents that are traumatic can come back and affect the person,affect his rationality, affect his happiness. This is where you findthe cause of a person acting the way he doesn't want to.

Koppel: Where--

Miscavige: A clear is--

Koppel: Yeah.

Miscavige: A clear is eradicating that reactive mind, so the person no longerhas matters like that not affecting him.

Koppel: Clears don't get colds.

Miscavige: Well, I don't know that clears don't get colds, but--

Koppel: L. Ron Hubbard said clears don't get colds.

Miscavige: Back in 1951, L. Ron Hubbard, I believe, said in that book that --postulating that a clear wouldn't get a cold -- so again, you're takinga line out of context.

Koppel: So clears do get colds.

Miscavige: I guess one could.

Koppel: Okay. In the few seconds that we've got left -- we've got about 45seconds left -- we've heard a lot from you and I understand there's alot more to be said, but why is all of this a religion? And you'respeaking now to a great many people out there who have a differentconcept of religion.

Miscavige: Yeah, well, unfortunately, we've talked about a lot of allegations,and it's tough to describe a subject when you're dealing, when youget hit with a litany of accusations at the beginning you're tryingto deal with them. Why Scientology is a religion? Religion is aboutthe spirit, and Scientology deals with the spirit. We are in thetradition of the much older religions -- Buddhism, Hinduism -- helpingthe person as a spiritual being improve himself. That is whatreligion is about. That is why this is a religion. It doesn't fallinto any other field.

Koppel: And on that note, David Miscavige, let me thank you. I appreciatevery much your joining us.

Miscavige: Okay. Thank you.

Koppel: Sunday, on This Week with David Brinkley, the New Hampshire primary,with Democratic presidential contenders Bill Clinton and Tom Harkin,and President Bush's campaign chairman, Robert Teeter. That's ourreport for tonight. I'm Ted Koppel in Washington. For all of us hereat ABC News, good night.