Hope, History and the 'Testosterone' Factor

— -- ABC News' Claire Shipman talked to Democratic presidential hopeful Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill., about the spirit of America, the fight for the African-American vote, the "testosterone" factor in his flare-up with Hillary Clinton and his pledge to quit smoking.

Below is a transcript of Shipman's conversation with Obama:

Claire Shipman: So Selma this weekend, have you been to the commemoration before? Is this your first time?

Sen. Barack Obama, D-Ill.: No. This will be the first time. John Lewis who is a hero of mine, and I think, a genuine American hero has invited me over the last couple of years, and I just haven't been able to make the schedule work. So when he asked this year, and he asked me to speak at the church before the march, I was really gratified to be able to do it.

Claire Shipman: You've talked in your book about the country's needs to face up to its tragic past...

Obama: Right.

Claire Shipman: What will you say this weekend at Selma to the country about how far we've come in 42 years, and what we haven't achieved in 42 years?

Obama: Well, I think you describe it properly. You know, I think we have made enormous progress in this country on the issue of race relations. I mean think about, when I was born in 1961, most blacks in the South still weren't voting, many were still using separate facilities. And for me now to be sitting here as the United States senator and a presidential candidate is astonishing. The problem is, is that better than good enough? And we still see the legacy of slavery and Jim Crow in the gaps in health care, in the achievement gap in education.

What I try to argue is that I think the spirit of America is one that is looking for reconciliation and unity, but we've got to make some sacrifices and we've got to put resources behind what I think are basically good impulses at this point.

Claire Shipman: Like it or not, this is also going to be a symbolic political moment this weekend. You and Sen. Clinton speaking in dueling churches, if you will, 300 yards apart, is that going to be odd?

Obama: Well, this wasn't something I anticipated when we originally accepted the invitation. And I've told John that, you know, one thing I don't want to do is diminish the importance of the event, the sanctity of the event with a lot of political posturing and presidential politics.

So I told him, I said I would be happy to march in the back of the line or in the middle of the pack, you know, because really what this should be doing is honoring those who made that original march when I a toddler. And I'm happy to follow them.

Claire Shipman: You're not frustrated that Hillary Clinton will be down there also?

Obama: I think this is something that all Americans should embrace and I don't think anybody has exclusive claims on celebrating the wonderful work that we've done there.

Claire Shipman: Now, obviously the African-American vote is important for both of you as candidates, you had some good news recently on that front, in our poll, for the first time, you are ahead of Sen. Clinton in terms of the support of black voters.

Obama: Right.

Claire Shipman: Why do you think that is? And do you think you have more to offer them as a candidate than Hillary Clinton does?

Obama: Well first of all, I think, polls this early are notoriously volatile. And so any given poll we don't take too seriously. What I've always said is that I don't expect to get the African-American vote, simply because I'm African-American. I think I've got to earn it. I don't take it for granted. I think that I have a track record of work as a community organizer, as a civil rights attorney, as a state legislature, and as a U.S. senator that indicates my concern and regard for the community that I'm a part of that. And that as people get to know me, I think we'll do very well. You know, I will be running on that record as opposed to my race.

Claire Shipman: She could say the same thing about her track record, though.

Obama: Well, and I would hope she does, and I hope that all of the candidates do. I know the media has fun with sort of the horse race aspect of this, but this is very early. We've got a lot of candidates. And, you know, I want everybody to compete for the black vote, just like I expect to compete for the white vote, the Latino vote and the Asian vote.

Claire Shipman: Now, the dust-up between you and Sen. Clinton recently, I guess to put it in a phrase I often use with my children, she may have started it but you jumped in and so you both probably, in the eyes of the public, seem equally guilty. Do you regret getting involved in that, especially when you talked about running a different kind of campaign?

Obama: You know, I mean I have to say first of all, that the flare-up was probably over reported given the, given that that day Tony Blair had announced that he was pulling out troops out of Iraq, and we found out that the health care system's costs are going to double in a decade. I did tell my staff, and this is reported, I think, in The New York Times, that I thought that we probably should have just entirely left it alone. They had their testosterone going and felt that we had been unfairly attacked. My view is, is that it was a distraction and I think that -- I'm less concerned about whether it hurts me as a candidate this early in candidacy. I don't think the average American voter is paying attention to it.

But I do think that it is critical given the seriousness of the issues that we're dealing with right now, not to get drawn into the game as it's usually played in Washington.

Claire Shipman: And can you avoid that without being "swift boated?" I mean can you really avoid that as a candidate?

Obama: Yes. Look, I think you have to respond if you are being attacked, but I think, responding with truth and restraint and civility is just as effective responding with sarcasm and snappy come backs.

Claire Shipman: Now I've got to ask you this, because everybody has asked me at ABC to talk to you about this, kicking the habit, how's it going?

Obama: Yes, Nicorette is working so far.

Claire Shipman: Is it?

Obama: Absolutely. You know, the truth is that I was an intermittent smoker and I'd sneak a cigarette here or there. So the -- since the habit was not severe, you know, I don't get the shakes or anything like that.

Claire Shipman: How much Nicorette are you chewing a day?

Obama: You know, probably about four or five of those little sticks, and it works perfectly well. The danger for me has been, historically when I sit down to write, when I was writing my book, for example, and you've got a blank page in front of you …

Claire Shipman: Nothing like a cigarette to get the brain going.

Obama: Yes, the gum doesn't work quite as well, but given how afraid I am of my wife, it's something that I'll stick with.

Claire Shipman: So how about your staff, would they say you're grumpier?

Obama: I don't think so.

Claire Shipman: Really?

Obama: What do you think guys?

Claire Shipman: No. We're getting no, OK. Well we'll try to believe that. All right. Thank you so much, Senator.

Obama: There you go. It's great to see you. Thank you so much. I appreciate it.