'This Week' Transcript 10-1-23: OMB Director Shalanda Young, Rep. Matt Gaetz and Rep. Mike Lawler

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 1, 2023 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive

COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Reversal.

Hours before a shutdown, Speaker Kevin McCarthy clinches a short-term deal to fund the government through mid-November.

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): We kept the government open to finish the job we have to get done.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): The American people have won. The extreme MAGA Republicans have lost.

KARL: But after relying on Democratic votes, has McCarthy put his job at risk?

REP. MATT GAETZ (R-FL): Kevin McCarthy has been a failure. Kevin McCarthy has not fulfilled his promises.

KARL: This morning we're live on Capitol Hill.

Plus, both sides of the House Republican divide. McCarthy critic Matt Gaetz and moderate Mike Lawler and President Biden’s budget director Shalanda Young.

Uphill battle.

VIVEK RAMASWAMY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The America-first agenda does not belong to one man.

NIKKI HALEY (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Every time I hear you, I feel a little bit dumber.

KARL: Needing a breakout moment at the second GOP debate, did any candidate dent the absent frontrunner?

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL) AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Donald Trump is missing in action.

CHRIS CHRISTIE (R), 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: You're not here tonight because you're afraid.

KARL: Our powerhouse roundtable weighs in.

Trail blazer.

DIANNE FEINSTEIN, FORMER DEMOCRATIC SENATOR FROM CALIFORNIA: We will go to Washington, and we will perform.

KARL: Senator Dianne Feinstein dies at age 90, after a career of historic firsts.

JOE BIDEN, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: She was an historic figure.

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): Dianne was a trailblazer.

SEN. CHUCK SCHUMER (D-NY): Her integrity shone like a beacon.

REP. NANCY PELOSI (D-CA): Her legacy will be a long one.

KARL: We remember the life of America's longest serving female senator.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it's THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK.

We have just witnessed an extraordinary 24 hours in the House of Representatives. As the U.S. government seemed on the brink of a lengthy government shutdown, Speaker of the House Kevin McCarthy made a decision to move forward with a bill that many of his fellow Republicans opposed. The bill, which required a two-thirds super majority, passed. But take a look at the final tally. Only 126 Republicans voted yes, 90 voted no. It only passed because it had the overwhelming support of House Democrats.

President Biden has now signed the bill into law, but, remember, this is just a temporary measure, keeping the government open for 45 days with no progress whatsoever for a long-term deal.

McCarthy avoided a drawn-out shutdown for now by ditching almost everything that he had promised conservatives and getting a lifeline from Democrats. Now there's a real question of whether that move will cause hardline Republicans to try to remove him as speaker of the House.

ABC’s senior congressional correspondent Rachel Scott has been on Capitol Hill all week tracking it all.

Good morning, Rachel.

RACHEL SCOTT, ABC NEWS SENIOR CONGRESSIONAL CORRESPONDENT: Jon, good morning.

President Biden signed that bill with just 45 minutes to spare. It was a week of uncertainty and chaos that ended with Democrats and Republicans finally coming together on a short-term deal to keep the government funded. This was far from what Speaker Kevin McCarthy wanted. He said he exhausted every single option trying to get the far-right wing of his party on the same page, even trying to tie border funding to this fight.

In the end, it was never enough. With time running out, he turned to Democrats. He put this measure on the floor that would keep the government funded until November 17th and add $16 billion in disaster aid. In the House, more Democrats voted for that bill than Republicans. It passed the Senate with sweeping bipartisan support.

Neither side got everything they wanted here. No border security for Republicans, no Ukraine aid for Democrats, and, most notably, no long-term solution, which means we could be right back here having this fight all over again in about 45 days, Jon.

KARL: So, Rachel, bottom line, does this put McCarthy's job as speaker in peril?

SCOTT: Jon, it sure seems that way. Those hardline conservatives were very clear from the beginning of this that if McCarthy tried to work with Democrats on the deal, they would try to oust him as speaker. McCarthy responding to those threats saying, bring it on.

KARL: All right, Rachel Scott on Capitol Hill, thank you.

Joining us now is Republican Congressman Matt Gaetz of Florida, who has been Speaker Kevin McCarthy's chief antagonist in all of this.

So, I want to start right with what you've been saying all along, that you would move to oust him as speaker, and what McCarthy said just yesterday.

Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA): We joined together to do what is right. If somebody wants to make a motion against me, bring it. There has to be an adult in the room.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So, are you going to do it? Are you going to move to oust him?

REP. MATT GAETZ, (R) FLORIDA: Kevin McCarthy is going to get his wish. I don’t think the adult in the room would allow America to sit atop a $33 trillion debt facing $2.2 trillion annual deficits. I don’t think the adult in the room would allow $8 trillion of this debt to come into refinancing at a higher level without serious spending cuts. And I don't think the adult in the room would lie to House conservatives. And that is exactly what Kevin McCarthy did.

In January, to get the speakership, Kevin had to agree to certain guardrails on spending. And he had to agree to a process that would allow us to put some downward pressure on spending. Since the mid-90s, this country has been governed by revolving continuous resolution and omnibus spending bill. And what that means is that America’s lawmakers take one up or down vote on the funding of the entire government. That is crazy. That is the reason we're $33 trillion in debt. We want to move to single-subject spending bills. So, he made that commitment. He broke it. And if, at this time next week Kevin McCarthy is still speaker of the House, it will be because the Democrats bailed him out and he can be their speaker, not mine.

KARL: So when do you make this move?

GAETZ: You'll be seeing it this week.

KARL: This week. OK.

GAETZ: That's why I came on the show this week.

KARL: Now, look, it takes only one person, obviously, you, to call for a vote to remove him. A so-called motion to vacate. But you would need a majority to remove him, which means you're going to need Democrats to remove him. Do you really think that Democrats are going to vote to remove Kevin McCarthy because he made a deal with Democrats?

GAETZ: No, I actually think Democrats are going to bail out Kevin McCarthy. So, this is an exercise to show the American people who really governs you and how that governing occurs.

KARL: So it’s –

GAETZ: I'm on a mission to change it where we're evaluating these bills independently. Kevin McCarthy is off making a secret deal on Ukraine as he's baiting Republicans to vote for a continuing resolution that doesn't include Ukraine. So, the one thing Democrats, Republicans, the White House, that we all have in common is that Democrats – is that Kevin McCarthy, at one point or another, has lied to all of us. But if they want to keep him, then he belongs to them.

KARL: But so you're not accomplishing anything here. I mean it –

GAETZ: That's not true.

KARL: Well – well, you don't have the votes to remove him, so –

GAETZ: Well, I don’t – I – by the way, I don’t know until we have them. And, by the way, I might have – not have them the first time, but I might have them before the 15th ballot. That’s the number of ballots Kevin McCarthy needed.

KARL: So, are you going to this every day like you had suggested? Are you going to, like, go through this process of voting over and over and over again?

GAETZ: I am relentless and I will continue to pursue this objective. And if all the American people see it that it is a uni-party that governs them, and that it is always the Biden, McCarthy, Jeffries government that makes dispositive decisions on spending, then I am – I am seeding the fields of future primary contests to get better Republicans in Washington who will actually tackle these deficits and debts.

KARL: I mean if you somehow succeed after multiple tries, I mean who would be the speaker?

GAETZ: Well, we have a lot of – look, we have a lot of talented people in our conference. Obviously, it’s an awkward discussion while our number two, Steve Scalise, is in treatment for blood cancer.

KARL: Yes.

GAETZ: So it’s -- I'm not going to pass somebody over because they're getting a medical treatment. I want to – I want to see how Steve Scalise comes out of that.

KARL: All right.

I want you to listen to what Hakeem Jeffries said after the bill passed.

GAETZ: Ah, Kevin's new boss. Let's hear from him.

KARL: OK, let’s listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): It was a victory for the American people and a complete and total surrender by right-wing extremists who, throughout the year, have tried to hijack the Congress.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I guess you agree with – you agree with part of that. You agree it was a total surrender?

GAETZ: No, it wasn't a surrender by the MAGA wing. We lost. A defeat is not a surrender. There were 90 Republicans who voted against this bad deal, and we did not prevail because -- here's what I've observed in the 118th Congress. On matters of frivolity, or messaging bills, Kevin McCarthy is fine partnering with House conservatives. But whenever it comes to the money, right, the debt limit, the budget process, Kevin McCarthy's true coalition partner is Hakeem Jeffries.

KARL: But I want to – you -- you've faced some criticism from fellow conservatives on this who say that you are the one that basically knee-capped McCarthy because he tried to do a bill that included changes in border policy, he tried to do a bill that would have cut some spending.

This is what Erick Erickson said after the bill passed, “conservatives got the whole of the House GOP to agree to cut the government by 8 percent as their opening negotiation with the Senate, but Matt Gaetz decided his grudge against Speaker McCarthy was more important. So he helped scuttle cuts, and now the government is going to grow.”

They're saying this is your fault.

GAETZ: The cuts were illusory. That was a mirage.

KARL: I mean he –

GAETZ: The Biden administration had already put out a statement of administration policy that they were going to veto that. The Senate had already said they weren't going to take it up. So, this is about what turf we battle on to reduce spending.

I do not believe that we will ever reduce spending if the manner of negotiation is just, what is the condition or the ornament that we're going to hang on to a continuing resolution. Since the mid-90s this government has been ruled by continuing resolution or omnibus bill. That's why we're $33 trillion in debt.

My plan, to go into single-subject spending bills would actually allow us to put that downward pressure. And I’ve acknowledged that in divided government you have to work with Senate Democrats. You have to work with the White House.

KARL: But --

GAETZ: But I don't think you should work with them on a continuing resolution or omnibus bill. You should make those Senate Democrats have to take up our defense bill to give troops a raise, take up our homeland security bill to make changes at the border, take up our veterans bill.

And if they did those things, people would have to vote on specific programs rather than just saying, oh, well, you know, I voted for the government funding bill, and sure there's some stuff at the Department of Education I don't like, but I had to be there for the veterans and the troops.

KARL: So, I know you say this is not personal with Kevin McCarthy, but it sure sounds personal.

GAETZ: I’m only talking about substantive de-dollarization.

KARL: Okay. But let me ask you about the relationship. When was the last time you talked with him one-on-one? I mean, have you had a --

GAETZ: Well, a matter of fact, just a couple weeks ago, Kevin McCarthy appointed me to the National Defense Conference Committee on the NDAA, and we spoke about some of our alliance and defense priorities. So, this isn't personal.

Some people make policy disagreements personal because their own policy failures are so personally embarrassing to them. I hold no personal animus to any -- with any of my Republican colleagues, by the way, including my Republican colleague you're about to have on next, who’s had terse words for me.

But at the end of the day, this is about spending. This is about the deal Kevin made in January.

I do resent the fact that Kevin is like owned by lobbyists and special interests --

KARL: That's personal, by the way.

GAETZ: It’s not personal. It’s substantive.

KARL: That’s an attack on a guy’s integrity.

GAETZ: Well, it is an attack on the system that he has used to obtain the speakership.

I am fighting for a different system.

KARL: All right.

GAETZ: One based on spending guardrails, agreements on process.

Kevin promised us 72 hours to read the bill. We didn't have it.

He promised $100 million wouldn't go on to the suspension agenda without the opportunity for amendments. Broke that deal, too.

And he promised us we could return to pre-COVID spending levels. There’s almost no promise he hasn’t violated.

KARL: All right. Matt Gaetz, thank you for joining us this morning.

GAETZ: Thank you.

KARL: Kevin McCarthy weighed in on the challenges to his speakership after the vote yesterday. This is what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

REP. KEVIN MCCARTHY (R-CA), SPEAKER OF THE HOUSE: But I’m going to be a conservative that gets things done for the American public. And it -- whatever that holds, so be it, because I believe in not giving up on America. I’m not going to be beholden to somebody who portrays and does something different.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: All right. Joining us now to discuss is Republican Congressman Mike Lawler of New York.

Thank you for joining us, Congressman Lawler.

I know you've been very much a defender of Kevin McCarthy throughout all of this. You supported the bill.

What's your reaction to Matt Gaetz said? He’s going to come out next week and try to remove him as speaker.

REP. MIKE LAWLER (R-NY): Well, I think what I just heard was a diatribe of delusional thinking.

Look, we're in a divided government, and in a divided government, any final bill is going to have bipartisan support. It needs to pass the Senate, and it needs to be signed by the president.

Nobody in our conference disagrees with the need to do single-subject spending bills. Nobody disagrees with the need to cut spending. In fact, it's one of the biggest reasons why I ran.

Joe Biden and his administration increased spending by over $5 trillion in just two years. And as Matt pointed out, our national debt is $33 trillion. It's unsustainable.

But when you're trying to break the system, when you're trying to reform it, it takes time. We have been doing the work over the last few months, going line by line, budget bill by budget bill, finding ways to cut spending, and reform the system. But we were not able to complete that work by September 30th, which was the end of the fiscal year.

And so, to shut down the government would inflict pain on the American people, and it would hurt an already fragile economy because Bidenomics has failed.

KARL: And it’s --

LAWLER: The only responsible thing to do was to keep the government open and funded while we complete our work.

And I agree with Matt. We need to finish all 12 appropriations bills. The Senate has not passed one single bill.

But, by putting this motion to vacate on the floor, you know what Matt Gaetz is going to do? He's going to delay the ability to complete that work over the next 45 days. And, just like he and some of my colleagues did during the past three weeks, they delayed the process by voting down the rules, violating our conference rules. They delayed the process by refusing to come to an agreement within the conference --

KARL: And --

LAWLER: -- on a conservative CR that would have cut spending by 8 percent --

KARL: So --

LAWLER: -- and enacted border security.

They are the reason that we had to work together yesterday with House Democrats to pass a CR. That is not the fault of Kevin McCarthy, that’s the fault of Matt Gaetz.

KARL: And it’s just a -- I think it's important to point out that you talk about the debt, which obviously is a huge problem. $7.8 trillion of that debt was added under the presidency of Donald Trump.

But what is going to happen? What do you anticipate? I mean will -- we saw 90 Republicans vote against this – this bill to keep the government running, even though McCarthy talked about it as essential, that’s clearly – it was a – was a -- to a degree a vote of lack of confidence in McCarthy's leadership. Do you Republicans will join -- how many Republicans will join Gates in – in that motion to vacate?

LAWLER: No, I don't think that was a lack of confidence in the speaker's leadership. We have a lot of people in our conference who have never voted for a CR. That's their prerogative. That's their right as elected representatives of their districts.

But we have to work together as a team. We have 221 Republicans. We need 218 votes to pass legislation through the House floor. Putting a motion to vacate forward, in defiance of conference rules which requires a majority of the majority. So, you know, I hear Matt constantly talking about the need to follow regular order, follow conference rules. Kevin McCarthy lied. He violated this. He violated that.

Matt Gaetz voted against the choice for speaker of the conference. He voted to take down rules. And now he's putting a motion to vacate on the floor in defiance of conference rules which requires a majority of the majority. So, you know, this is a guy who says one thing out of one side of his mouth and speaks another thing out of the other side.

KARL: So –

LAWLER: He’s mealymouthed and, you know, frankly duplicitous.

KARL: What’s your message to Hakeem Jeffries and your Democratic colleagues on this because if they vote with Matt Gaetz, and Gaetz only needs to have a handful of Republicans and he can remove Speaker Kevin McCarthy. So what -- what's your message to Democrats about whether or not to go along with that?

LAWLER: Look, ultimately Democrats are going to the make a decision for themselves. I think it is destructive to the country to put forth this motion to vacate. We have a lot of work to do. The American people elected a House Republican majority to serve as a check and balance on the Biden agenda and the administration's reckless spending. The only way to do that is to complete our appropriations work. We have 45 days to do it. Senate Democrats have not passed one single appropriations bill through the Senate floor. We are dealing with a crisis at our southern border, and it is impacting my home state of New York, like it has southern border states. We need to get border security.

Chuck Schumer has done absolutely nothing when it comes to dealing with the crisis at our border. House Republicans have passed HR-2. We need to use the appropriations process as the vehicle to get border security for the American people, crack down on this massive influx of migrants coming into our country, and reform our immigration system long term.

But this will all be torpedoed by one person who wants to put a motion to vacate for personal, political reasons, and undermine the will of the conference and the American people, who elected a Republican majority to govern.

KARL: And one of the reasons why the Senate has not passed any of those appropriations bills is because there have been Republicans that have prevented the – the vote from going forward.

But Mike Lawler of New York, thank you very much for joining us. We'll talk to you again soon.

The roundtable is coming up.

Plus, President Biden's budget director responds.

That’s next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SHALANDA YOUNG, DIRECTOR OF THE OFFICE OF MANAGEMENT AND BUDGET: Our message is simple, House Republicans need to stick to the agreement we already reached, and they already voted for, do the job they were elected to do. Enough is enough. A deal is a deal.

Extreme House Republicans need to stop playing political games with people’s lives.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was President Biden’s budget director, Shalanda Young, at the White House on Friday, urging House Republicans to uphold the budget deal she helped negotiate with President Biden back in the spring.

Shalanda Young joins us right now.

YOUNG: Thanks, Jon.

KARL: So thank you for being here.

So, tell me, it looked like a shutdown was happening. I mean, everybody was anticipating it, and McCarthy went forward and defied many in his own party to keep the government operating.

Does Kevin McCarthy deserve credit?

YOUNG: Let me tell you, whew! But why?

(LAUGHTER)

YOUNG: Why the brinksmanship? Why the theater? Why to the last minute?

I will tell you, if I’m sick of it, I can only imagine what the American people are feeling. Why go down this road, take us so close? And let me tell you, there were 200 Democrats who saved us from shutdown.

Go look at the votes. Democrats stepped up, made sure the government continued running. And we appreciate the speaker finally upholding the budget deal we all agreed to this summer, finally.

KARL: I mean, certainly, this wouldn’t have happened without Democrats. But McCarthy had to -- had to go forward with this, even facing threats to his job. So, I mean, does he, late or not, deserve credit for that?

YOUNG: That’s the job of the speaker. I worked in the House a long time, saw a masterful speaker at work in Speaker Pelosi. That’s the job of the speaker, put the American people before anything else. Keep your end of the bargain, keep your end of the deal.

We had a deal. I appreciate the speaker for keeping it. But, boy, vote after vote after vote, 30 percent cuts, want to fire 12,000 FBI agents. When none of that worked, finally, finally, putting a bill on the floor that served the American people and kept his end of the bargain.

KARL: I know you’re not on the Hill anymore; you’re at the White House, but let me ask you, if these renegade Republicans move forward with their threats to try to remove the speaker of the House because he worked with Democrats, do you think Democrats should go along with that? Because obviously it would require Democrats to vote to remove him as well.

YOUNG: Let me tell you, I’m going to leave that to my former colleagues on the Hill.

KARL: You’re not going to give me a little...

(LAUGHTER)

YOUNG: Absolutely not. This is when I appreciate being the budget director for the president of the United States. I’ll leave the intrigue of what happens. But let me tell you, showing up for the American people, making sure that women and children can get nutrition, making sure that FAA can continue to cooperate, making sure we have disaster relief funding, and for 47 days, that’s what we were talking about, that’s the easy part. It should not be this difficult to do what most Americans think is Congress’s basic job.

KARL: This bill has $16 billion for emergency relief. But it doesn’t have money, obviously, for Ukraine. How confident are you, is the president, that Ukraine funding will pass? I mean, we’ve seen a majority of House Republicans now on record opposing more funding for Ukraine?

YOUNG: What you’ve also seen, over the past week, is a coalition of Democrats and Republicans who have voted in the House to ensure that their most extreme cannot remove Ukraine funding from the defense bill. So we’ve seen the coalition. We’ve seen that the majority of Congress still supports Ukraine. We’ve seen that the majority of Congress understands what’s at stake in Ukraine.

Who are you for, Western democratic values or dictators like Vladimir Putin?

So I’m confident because I’ve seen the proof in votes, of Republicans and Democrats who have voted to make sure we keep our commitment. Those votes are there.

We know there’s a willing coalition, and I’ll certainly expect members and the speaker to keep their commitment, not to us, but the Ukrainian people we told we will be there.

KARL: I mean, McCarthy has also made commitments to Republicans that he wouldn’t bring up bills that a majority of them opposed. And -- so, I mean, you have to trust McCarthy to keep his commitment with you but not his commitment to Republicans. I mean, he’s in a -- he’s in a top spot here.

YOUNG: It’s a tough job.

(LAUGHTER)

KARL: What’s going to happen in 45, or as you point out, 47 days technically? I mean, aren’t we going to be back here at the same spot?

YOUNG: Let me tell you, we need to start today to make sure that we do not have this brinkmanship, last-minute anxiousness of the American people. Let’s do our jobs to not have this happen again. Let’s have full year funding bills at the end of these 47 days. Let’s not do this again.

KARL: Do you have confidence in McCarthy to deliver on what he agreed to in the debt ceiling deal?

YOUNG: Speaker McCarthy is one member. You saw a coalition, mostly Democrats and Republicans who say enough is enough. That’s what their vote was yesterday. That’s what their vote was, in the House and Senate. Strong bipartisan votes that people want to do the right thing.

We have to use that coalition of bipartisan members to start work now to make sure we aren’t in this place again.

KARL: All right. Shalanda Young, OMB director, thank you --

YOUNG: Thank you.

KARL: -- for joining us.

The roundtable is next. Plus, we reflect on the life and legacy of Dianne Feinstein with a look back at her very first appearance on this program.

We’ll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: The Senate lost an historic figure on Friday with the death of Senator Dianne Feinstein. Feinstein was a trail blazer in American politics, the first female president of San Francisco's board of supervisors. She became the first woman to serve as mayor of San Francisco after the shocking assassination of two of her colleagues. She went on to become the first woman elected to the Senate from California and ultimately, the longest serving female senator in American history, making her mark on a wide range of issues including gun violence, national security, intelligence and women's rights.

Dianne Feinstein appeared on this show many times over the years. Here is a look at her very first appearance 33 years ago with David Brinkley, when she was running for Governor of California, part of a wave of women running for higher office, breaking barriers and determined to reshape American politics.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DAVID BRINKLEY: We know that there's a great cynicism now about a particularly about the U.S. Congress, and to some extent, all public leaders. Are women able to change that? Will they be, would they be?

DIANNE FEINSTEIN (D) FMR SENATOR: Well, I think it depends on the effectiveness of the woman. I think that part of acting in government is to be effective, and that that's the bottom line. And once you reach a level of high effectiveness, then I think you open all kinds of doors. I think there's a certain symbolic value, a certain practical value of a woman's candidacy. But I think the bottom line is, is just playing being effective.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

NIKKI HALEY (R) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: He increase the national debt --

SEN. TIM SCOTT (R-SC) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: The largest tax --

HALEY: He voted for the spending.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: You voted for --

(CROSSTALK)

HALEY: Twelve years, where have you been? Where have you been Tim?

SCOTT: I voted (INAUDIBLE) --

(CROSSTALK)

SCOTT: Here's what you've done.

(CROSSTALK)

GOV. RON DESANTIS (R-FL) PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I appreciate a lot of the things they're saying.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Some heated and rather uplifting moments from the second Republican primary debate. One of the things we're going to discuss here with the Roundtable. We are joined by former DNC chair, Donna Brazile, The Dispatch senior editor, Sarah Isgur, our political director, Rick Klein and Politico Playbook co-author, Rachel Bade.

So, Rick, big moment on this show. Matt Gaetz is going to finally do what he's threatening to do and try to remove Speaker McCarthy. What's going to happen?

RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Well, I think the way he laid it out as the most likely scenario, the Democrats in some form or fashion end up saving Kevin McCarthy. There's some procedural things that have to happen if and when he does this early this week, but the end result is going to be Kevin McCarthy is almost certainly going to still be speaker and he's almost certainly going to still be speaker because Democrats helped him out, just as they bailed him out last night that bill does not pass the government's clothes without the help of Democrats. And Kevin McCarthy knew that when he went through the series. And it – it may be worth it to him, the price of – of keeping the job, but it is going to be a different speakership when Democrats help him in any way.

KARL: Yes, so does that change the nature of his speakership because now he's effectively elected, I guess? I mean he’s -- or at least not removed by, you know, a bipartisan vote?

KLEIN: From the perspective of Matt Gaetz –

KARL: A coalition government.

KLEIN: Yes, from the -- not quite, but from the -- from the perspective of Matt Gaetz and – and some – some of his colleagues, yes, this is going to be another strong talking point against McCarthy. But they don't have another option. And so, in some sense, this is already the nature of his speakership. It's how he got the job originally, cutting deals with his own colleagues, and at some point having to rely on the idea that we just have to govern as opposed to just making a point.

KARL: So – so, Rachael, it takes one vote to call for a vote to remove him, the motion to vacate. But then what – what actually happens?

RACHAEL BADE, POLITICO PLAYBOOK CO-AUTHOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Procedurally, they'll try to table it, which basically means they're going to try to send it to committee. And I believe you would only need a few Democrats to do that.

But, you know, there's a big difference between McCarthy making deals with fellow Republicans and then making deals with Democrats. And so I think this idea of Democrats bailing McCarthy out is a lot more easier – is a lot easier said than done. I mean they’re going to face a lot of pressure. Any Democrat who vote to help him are going to face serious pressure back home, could face a primary challenge. This is a guy who single-handedly resurrected Trump after January 6th. He went back on his deal with the White House. He's impeaching Joe Biden. Are Democrats really going to save this guy?

And then, you know, you also have to think about, this is going to come with a price. If Democrats are going to help him, they're going to want something. They’re going to either want the impeachment, you know, put aside and – and put on hold or stopped completely. They're going to want a power-sharing agreement. If McCarthy gives them what they want on this, he's going to start to lose support from conservatives.

So, even though Gaetz -- say maybe Gaetz puts up four or five votes originally of Republicans who want to oust him, if he becomes a speaker that is supported by Democrats, every day that Gaetz puts a motion to vacate on the floor, he’s probably going to lose more and more support because other Republicans are going to say, you can't be speaker if we need Democrats.

KARL: Yes, he lost 90 votes on the – on the spending bill.

BADE: Yes.

KARL: I mean there were 90. That’s but, Donna, we just heard from AOC moments ago, I'm bringing this to you, that she says that she would love to vote to remove Kevin McCarthy as speaker. So, that's at least one progressive vote to join with Matt Gaetz to – to remove McCarthy.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Right.

KARL: How do you see it?

BRAZILE: Well, as Leader Jeffries said, and I think he speaks for many Democrats, we'll cross that bridge when we get to it.

Look, Speaker McCarthy --

KARL: We're at that bridge, I think.

BRAZILE: Well, I don’t think we’re at that bridge. And (INAUDIBLE) carries a wounded – a wounded cat across a bridge? I mean he doesn’t -- he cannot get consensus in his own caucus. What does he give Democrats? What will he give the American people?

The reason why I think it's important that we wait and see what happens within the Republican caucus, can Kevin bring anybody to the table? We shouldn’t bail Kevin out. This is about helping the American people.

I mean, tonight, we have air pilots and – and flight attendants on their jobs because of what Democrats did.

KARL: But also because of McCarthy.

BRAZILE: We have our flood insurance extended.

KARL: But also because of McCarthy. Because he brought this –

BRAZILE: Two hundred and nine votes from Democrats. We deliver.

KARL: For sure.

BRAZILE: Democrats delivered on raising the debt ceiling. We're delivering for the kids tomorrow in head start programs. So, this is not about saving one man, this is about preserving our country, standing up for the American people, and not giving a hoot about what happens to Kevin McCarthy. Now, look –

KARL: So, you're with Matt Gaetz.

BRAZILE: Look, I'm not a Matt Gaetz fan. I like him. I know him. All of that good stuff. But this is about the American people. It’s not about preserving one man.

KARL: Sarah.

SARAH ISGUR, FORMER TRUMP JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON & THE DISPATCH' SENIOR EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: A few things here. One, I don't see why Democrats, heading into a very contentious election, wouldn't want some more chaos in the House. Remove Kevin McCarthy. Maybe there's not an alternative. It will reflect on Republicans.

ON the other hand, while this is an inter-Republican fight going on, this actually says a lot broader stuff about the incentives of individual members of Congress in this current era of Congress than it does, I think, about the Republican Party at this point, which is, you’ve got members, who when they get elected, aren’t hiring legislative staff any more, they’re hiring more bookers for cable TV, for podcasts, for social media, because the incentives now are all about protecting yourself from the primary, from your flank. It’s small-dollar donors that have actually moved both of these parties far more extreme than they were in the sort of, you know, pre-campaign finance reform era and we’re seeing the result of that, which is a Congress that’s – you know, there's a burn it all down caucus in both parties at this point.

BADE: Yes. A couple other nuggets to add on, you know, this whole motion to vacate thing. Number one, we reported yesterday in “Playbook” that Nancy Pelosi herself has counseled Hakeem Jeffries and his leadership team against bailing out McCarthy. Now Pelosi –

KARL: She’s with AOC.

BADE: Yes. Well, I mean she has said that she – her office in a statement told me that they will follow Jeffries. This is ultimately going to be a Jeffries decision. But another senior leadership aide – Democratic leadership aide told me that if Jeffries wants to be speaker, he can’t help McCarthy.

And then I do think it's important to talk about the Republican...

KARL: Wow.

BADE: ... side of things, and that is that...

KARL: I mean, that means McCarthy could go down. I mean...

KLEIN: Well, they don't need them all, though. That's the thing.

BADE: That's true. They don't need them all. Originally, they'll only need a few. And eventually, when it gets to the actually -- actual vote to oust him, they will likely need them all.

But, you know, there's a whole process they have to go through. But in terms of republicans, though, we should note that I've, sort of, wondered if Matt Gaetz is going to do it this week because he doesn't seem to quite be at his peak leverage, in terms of going after McCarthy. He has angered a lot of conservatives by refusing to back this continuing resolution that included steep budget cuts, a border wall fix...

KARL: The one that failed.

BADE: The one that failed, that Republican proposal that he single-handedly led the charge to take it down. And that has angered people like Scott Perry, who is the chairman of the Freedom Caucus. And if you don't have people like Scott Perry, who, by the way, no fan of McCarthy, and probably would support an effort to oust him if, you know, McCarthy was caving on long-term spending things. But I guess, you know, my point being here, I'm not sure that there's a lot of -- how many Republicans he has with him right now.

ISGUR: Matt Gaetz is not the best face for this even within the Republican Caucus.

BRAZILE: But who's a better face, Marjorie Taylor Greene?

(LAUGHTER)

BRAZILE: There's no good face in the Republican Party to deal with the crisis facing this country. And, you know, we may have people on the left that don't like certain issues within the government, but they will not tank the government just to make a point.

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: And that's what Republicans are willing to do.

KARL: But you really don't think McCarthy deserves some credit for defying so many in his party and bringing this bill up? I mean, he is putting his speakership -- obviously, he...

BRAZILE: Are you asking me to cry this morning? No.

(LAUGHTER)

I mean, he went back on his deal...

KARL: I'm just looking for a little something.

BRAZILE: He made a deal with the president of the United States and the Senate leaders, both Republicans and Democrats, when he raised that debt ceiling. To go back on his word -- and I'm supposed to sit up here and stand for a man who went back on his word? No. I'm not.

KARL: OK, but -- but...

BADE: Yeah, and this should be -- this is often -- Republicans and Democrats would say that continuing government spending is a basic, you know, function of Congress, that, you know, does he really deserve props for keeping the government open? I mean, I think Democrats will be asking him that.

KARL: OK, but let's remember, Rick, what happens if Gaetz actually succeeds and he gets 218 votes to vacate the chair. There's no speaker. And then the congress stops, and nothing can happen. We saw it in January. Nothing can happen at all until they elect a new speaker, which God only knows how long that would take.

KLEIN: There's no one else stepping up to get the job. It's not like Matt Gaetz has an alternative, or someone else. I mean, you can talk about some of the people on McCarthy's leadership team. But this is a terrible job right now. Whoever gets it is going to be dealing with the same kind of dynamics for a while and in a position where they're probably going to lose the majority, especially if this continues, a year from now. So you're only a caretaker speaker.

I think, look, it's October 1st. Who here had on their bingo cards...

(LAUGHTER)

KLEIN: There's a minor miracle that he's been able to go as long as he was. And it's only by, kind of, Scotch-taping these little deals together that he's able to survive and advance.

KARL: All right. Enough about Speaker McCarthy and the -- and the House. Let's turn to the campaign. We saw that debate, and that sound that we played at the beginning of this segment just gave you a sense. I mean, I was out at the Reagan Library. It was a mess.

BRAZILE: Yes.

KARL: Any -- any -- I mean, you're our resident Republican expert. I mean, did it look like anybody on that stage was in position to take on Donald Trump?

ISGUR: Oh, I mean, that was a really important debate as we think about the GOP primary and potential nominee for 2028.

(LAUGHTER)

ISGUR: I mean, it just doesn't seem to have much bearing on 2024, at this point. And it was so interesting that it was in the same place that we had that debate now eight years ago; it's also at the Reagan Library. I was obviously with Carly Fiorina at that point. And that's really when I think you could see Donald Trump taking off, of, like, "Wait, he's going to be the nominee."

This time around, the debate was a mess, as you say. But interestingly to me, you have now Donald Trump, one of his senior advisers, Chris LaCivita, Newt Gingrich, all calling on the RNC to stop having these debates.

(LAUGHTER)

KARL: Yeah, but let's look at what LaCivita said. He's, you know, basically one of those running the Trump campaign. He tweeted out right after the debate, "Tonight's GOP debate was as boring and inconsequential as the first debate, and nothing that was said will change the dynamics of the primary contest being dominated by President Trump. The RNC should immediately put an end to any further primary debates."

So, Rick, they're not going to do that, but there may not be many more debates, right? I mean, what are you hearing? Because there had been plans for a whole series of debates.

KLEIN: Yeah, look, the RNC, I think, kind of quietly, has shifted some of its plans along the way. There's not going to be a debate at all this month, in October. They've got one coming up in November. I think -- I'm told that plans are still in flux around December. It could be that they -- they limit these.

And, right now, their expectation is that Donald Trump isn't going to show up, at least not until he absolutely needs it, maybe right before the voting starts around Iowa and New Hampshire. But I think, they have to be mindful of the fact that they need to create a process for those other candidates. Donald Trump hasn't even signed that pledge to support whoever the nominee is. He's wouldn’t even be qualified under their own rules to participate…

KARL: And you think they would keep (inaudible).

KLEIN: Yeah, that's a tough question.

(LAUGH)

KLEIN: Look, we were out there in Simi Valley, and every conversation I had with campaign strategists kind of was the same that we have to do this, we have to do that, but I'm told does it matter, because Donald Trump is…

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: But, I got to say, having been through a number of presidential cycles, it is -- it's both -- it feels late but it is also early. I mean, Iowa is not until January. Donald Trump is facing, as I understand it, some legal trouble. I mean, is he -- is he really?

I mean, can really we say this is over when you have got the front-running candidate, you know, under indictment in four separate jurisdictions and, let's face it, volatile? He's threatening the -- essentially threatening the Chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, saying he deserves the death penalty. I mean, this is not over, is it, Rachel? Tell me.

BADE: I mean, look, Jon, I think January is going to be here before you blink.

KARL: OK. All right.

BADE: And you know, Donald trump is up so high right -- so far right now above these candidates, that even though it is relatively early and it's just really hard to see anyone overtaking him. If you look at that polling before the first debate and after the first debate, the Republicans that grew his polling -- most was not even on the debate stage. So there is question like, these debates are entertaining. I actually they are -- you get to know the candidates very well, their personalities. There are some standout moments, but it doesn't make a difference at this point.

ISGUR: You know what the debates have mattered for is the donors watching them, and that's what the candidates will tell you as well. And that's why you're suddenly hearing the draft Glenn Youngkin, the Governor of Virginia at this point -- these are not real. Like, Glenn Youngkin cannot get into the race at this point. To your point it is late. There are ballot deadlines coming up. And so, it's like, wow, this is Haley's moment or the donors are going to really back behind Glenn Youngkin. Like nope. That point…

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: I mean, DeSantis…

(CROSSTALK)

ISGUR: …more candidates into this field isn't going to help.

KARL: And donors are pulling away from DeSantis. We don't have much more time left, but I want to turn to the Democrats.

BRAZILE: It is so boring.

ISGUR: But Donna, what about the fire alarm?

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: …couldn't keep me up. It was boring.

KARL: There is a fire alarm.

BRAZILE: Who cares about the cost of curtains?

KARL: OK, but…

BRAZILE: Seriously, the inflation. That's what Joe Biden is doing. He's trying to keep…

KARL: Donna, can I ask you about Bobby Kennedy, Jr.?

BRAZILE: He's going as an independent. That's the word.

KARL: We are hearing…

BRAZILE: Which means he's going to have to try to figure out how to get on the ballot, how to break the threshold. There's a lot of work that goes into getting on ballots across the country. But, so long.

KARL: Who does he hurt? Who does he take votes away from, if he succeeds in getting on the ballot?

BRAZILE: I mean, this is a guy who is getting a lot of support from Republicans and Republican donors who thought he could come and muck up our primary. So, I don't really know. He hasn't been a consequential figure. For the last week, one of his representatives finally came to a Rules and Bylaws Committee meeting. So, I don't know, maybe this week, when the Democratic Party meets in St. Louis, we'll just right a resolution and say, "Good bye."

KARL: Rick?

KLEIN: I think it's not the question as to whether he even gets on the ballot in consequential places because there is a lot of money and a lot of time. You have to start doing it. But look, he…

KARL: He had a meeting with the Libertarian Party over the summer.

KLEIN: So, there's a possibility that he works with Libertarians. I don't think the no-labels folks would turn to him. It is a lot easier to work with an existing movement. Does he want to commit those kind of resources? And if he does, he is a huge name in Democratic circles, but I think people have learned a lot about him over time. And there is an overlap to Donna's point, with a lot of the same things that Donald Trump has believed and Republicans have believed, I don't know that you can say who it impacts, but it is a big deal to have someone in Kennedy's name.

KARL: I mean, one of the guys who loves him seems is Steve Bannon…

(LAUGH)

KARL: It's unclear.

KLEIN: He comes from a great family.

KARL: That is absolutely true. All right. That is all the time we have for this roundtable.

But coming up, federal student loan repayments restart today, after a year-long pandemic pause. Elizabeth Schulze reports on the impact on people, who thought their loans were going to be forgiven, next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN (D) PRESIDENT OF UNITED STATES: I believe the course decision to strike down my Student Debt Relief Program was a mistake, was wrong. What I did I felt was appropriate and was able to be done and would get done. I didn't give borrowers false hope. But the Republicans snatched away the hope.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was President Biden after the Supreme Court struck down his plan to wipe out more than $400 million in federal student loans. It was a blow to the President and a millions of borrowers who are counting on their loans to be forgiven.

ABC's Elizabeth Schulze spoke to borrowers who now must begin making payments again after a three-year pause.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH SCHULZE, ABC NEWS MULTI-PLATFORM REPORTER (voice-over): For Sara Wood's family of four in Denver, the three year pause on federal student loan payments was a rare financial reprieve.

SARA WOOD, FEDERAL STUDENT LOAN BORROWER: It was a huge, huge relief. Apples and peanut butter --

SCHULZE (voice-over): With her $440 in monthly student debt payments on hold, would started putting aside savings for her twin daughter's education.

WOOD: My husband and I sat down and with us both on a payment pause. It's like let's put whatever we can towards our daughter's 529s.

SCHULZE (voice-over): Her hope --

WOOD: Interest is 7.65.

SCHULZE (voice-over): -- that her daughters won't be burdened with student debt like hers, totaling more than $180,000.

SCHULZE: What does that number mean to you?

WOOD: You know, it's the thing that I am probably the most ashamed of in my life. You have to think of and we have to budget for every day and we have to budget for the future consequences of this loan every single day.

SCHULZE (voice-over): Now with payments do what says she will forego saving for her daughter's future education fund to pay off her own.

WOOD: You need to live in a house, you need to pay groceries, you need to eat and then from there on you kind of have to figure out where to scrimp and save.

SCHULZE (voice-over): It's a harsh reality for 28 million borrowers like Wood, the government's years long pandemic freeze on student loan payments ends today.

The average Federal Student Loan Borrower owes more than $37,000 in debt and for borrowers with a master's degree it's nearly 92,000.

MARK ZANDI, CHIEF ECONOMIST, MOODY'S ANALYTICS: Well, it's not great --

SCHULZE (voice-over): Economist, Mark Zandi says the restart of these payments will add to the financial stress borrowers are already feeling with inflation.

ZANDI: I think for most student loan borrowers what it means that they got to make some hard choices.

MICHAEL LOPEZ, FEDERAL STUDENT LOAN BORROWER: I really want stability for us.

SCHULZE (voice-over): Thirty-three-year-old Michael Lopes in Anaheim California is a first generation college graduate who went on to get his master's in social work, and now owes about $240,000 in student debt. He says the freeze on payments opened up an avenue to another major first in his family.

SCHULZE: And this is your house.

SCHULZE (voice-over): Buying a home with his wife, a baby now on the way.

LOPEZ: Like I don't know if we'll ever own a home and the fact that we were able to do that because of the pause was just like I mean mind blowing.

SCHULZE (voice-over): Lopez followed every twist and turn of the pause, hoping it could lead to broader student debt reform.

LOPEZ: I've become more plugged into politics than ever have in my life.

SCHULZE (voice-over): As a presidential candidate, Joe Biden pledged he would cancel thousands of dollars in student debt, eventually following through a year and a half into his term.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JOE BIDEN, (D) PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES OF AMERICA: Using the authority Congress granted to the Department of Education, we will forgive $10,000 in outstanding federal student loans.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

SCHULZE (voice-over): But ten months later, the Supreme Court struck down the plan, leaving Lopez and millions of borrowers like him disappointed.

SCHULZE: Do you feel like President Biden let you down?

LOPEZ: In some ways, yes. I also recognize nobody is perfect. He can't get it 100 percent right. But that's also why he's the president, like that responsibility is on his shoulders.

SCHULZE: Critics of loan forgiveness, especially with student debt say so many Americans had to pay their own debt, why should this generation be any different?

LOPEZ: Yes, there are folks who have worked for it and were able to pay. Mind you, some of those folks paid a lot less than what we're paying these days. But, you know, that's a privilege to be able to do that, right.

SCHULZE (voice-over): After the Supreme Court's decision with loans still scheduled to restart this fall, the president launched a narrower Plan B. He directed the Education Department to try to cancel debt through a different law, established a one-year grace period for borrowers who missed payments, and rolled out a new plan that could lower people's monthly payments.

But Lopez and Wood say those backup plans aren't broad enough to affect them, and their debt will still be looming large at the ballot box.

SCHULZE: Is student loan debt an issue you will vote on in the 2024 election?

LOPEZ: Absolutely. It's essentially one of the major issues of our generation and of our time.

SCHULZE (voice-over): For "This Week," Elizabeth Schulze, ABC News, Washington.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Thanks to Elizabeth for that important story. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Before we go, we want to wish a very special happy birthday to Jimmy Carter, the longest-living American president. He turns 99 today. He made a rare public appearance last week with his wife Rosalynn, seven months after entering hospice care. We wish both of them all the best.

Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. And have a great day.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)