'This Week' Transcript 10-20-24: Governors Gretchen Whitmer, Josh Shapiro, Tony Evers, and Chris Sununu

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, October 20, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Battleground showdown.

CROWD (chanting): USA! USA!

RADDATZ: Just 16 days to the election, Kamala Harris and Donald Trump barnstorm critical states.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: Wisconsin, today I then ask you, are you ready to make your voices heard?

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I will put Michigan first, and I will put America first.

RADDATZ: This morning, our exclusive sit down with the three Democratic governors of Pennsylvania, Michigan, and Wisconsin.

GOV. TONY EVERS, (D) WISCONSIN: It's going to be close. We've got a good ground game.

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO, (D) PENNSYLVANIA: We've got a better candidate. We've got a better message.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER, (D) MICHIGAN: We've got receipts on the issues that matter to the American people.

RADDATZ: Hoping to deliver their battleground states for Kamala Harris.

You say there are undecided voters.

WHITMER: Sure.

RADDATZ: What are they waiting to hear?

Plus, Rick Klein breaks down the latest polls and analysis from our powerhouse roundtable.

Divisive rhetoric.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: We can't stand you, you’re a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) vice president.

RADDATZ: Donald Trump turns to profane attacks on his political opponent. Will it turn off the voters he needs in the closing weeks? Jon Karl has the latest from the Trump campaign and New Hampshire's Republican governor, Chris Sununu, reacts.

And –

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: There's a very high likelihood of election officials refusing to certify in some counties in 2024.

RADDATZ: Terry Moran reports on concerns rogue officials could reject the will of voters this election. The latest in our series, “Protecting Your Vote.”

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Martha Raddatz.

RADDATZ: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK.

We are now just 16 days to Election Day. Sixteen days to one of the most consequential elections in history, with early voting already in full swing.

As of this weekend, all 50 states and Washington, D.C. have begun early or absentee voting, with the battleground state of North Carolina setting a new record Friday for its first day of early, in-person voting. Both campaigns are crisscrossing all the key swing states, especially the battlegrounds of Wisconsin, Michigan, and Pennsylvania, that could very well decide the election. Those so-called blue wall states had gone to Democrats in every presidential election since 1992, but they all went for Donald Trump in 2016, before flipping back to Joe Biden in 2020. Each state won by just a few thousand votes in both of those elections.

I traveled to Pennsylvania this weekend to speak with the Democratic governors of these critical states who were on a bus tour making their final case to voters to elect Kamala Harris, with the polls looking tighter than ever.

So, before we get to that very lively conversation, let's bring in ABC’s Washington bureau chief and political director, Rick Klein, with the breakdown of the latest numbers.

And, Rick, we're already seeing meaningful signs in who's casting those early ballots.

RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yes, Martha, the final day of voting still 16 days away, but already more than 13 million Americans have cast their ballots now. That's actually down significantly from where it was four years ago. But, of course, that was the Covid year, when record numbers of people were voting early and by mail.

In Georgia, just this past week, the first day of in-person voting set the new record. So, it does look like we're on track to have a very high turnout election, particularly in the battleground states. In fact, there's more than a million people that have voted early already in both Georgia and Michigan.

Now, we’re not going to know for a while, until election night or even later than that, exactly who people voted for. But based on the likely partisanship of the voters that we're seen so far, we’re seeing more Republicans as a share of the electorate than Democrats.

Take a look at that. Four years ago, less than a third, only 32 percent of people that had voted so far were Republicans. That's up six points so far this cycle.

Now, that could be a sign of enthusiasm among Republicans. It could be because Donald Trump is sometimes at least supporting early voting. And it may be that these are voters that are going to vote anyway on Election Day. But the bottom line is that people are voting and they're enthusiastic about this race. In Pennsylvania, we’ve seen Republicans so far ahead of the 2020 pace. Again, Democrats are still a larger share of early votes, but there are more Republicans in just about all of the states we've seen significant votes so far.

RADDATZ: And in Pennsylvania you mentioned, it looms so large in this race as – as do those other state. What are you seeing exactly so far in polling, and how important are they?

KLEIN: Yes, Martha, check out the FiveThirtyEight polling average across the battleground states. Seven major battlegrounds. And that was a month ago, right after the ABC debate. You see the – the numbers on the left. Wisconsin, Michigan, Pennsylvania, all advantages for Kamala Harris.

Now you've seen – fast forwarding by just a few weeks – things narrow significantly in Michigan and Pennsylvania. And we have a dead even race right now in Wisconsin. Now, this isn't a fundamental shift in the race, but it is enough to put the campaigns on notice about just how close this election is likely to be.

And why does this all matter? Well, check out a what if scenario. This is a potential map for election night. This is a scenario where there's no other surprises and Harris wins the three big blue wall states, Michigan, Wisconsin, Pennsylvania, and also takes that one congressional district in Nebraska that Biden carried. That's 270 electoral votes. That is the – the magic number exactly right there that gives her the presidency.

But if there's even a slight crack in that blue wall, let's say that Pennsylvania goes for Trump instead, Wisconsin and Michigan still in Harris' column, that allows Trump to open up the southern strategy. He can win North Carolina and Georgia and take the presidency. He doesn't even have to worry about the two states out west in Nevada and Arizona. And it's impossible to see, bottom line, Martha, how either candidate does well without doing very well across those three big battlegrounds.

RADDATZ: And we'll be watching all of this thanks to you, Rick.

And those are the kinds of questions I took to those blue wall governors, Pennsylvania’s Josh Shapiro, Michigan's Gretchen Whitmer, and Wisconsin's Tony Evers, just outside of Pittsburgh, on Saturday.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: I want to start with each one of you, each state. I'm going to start with you, Governor Shapiro. In Pennsylvania, if the election were held today, who would win?

GOV. JOSH SHAPIRO (D-PA): I think Kamala Harris wins, but make no mistake, it's close. We're not afraid of that. It doesn't worry us. It causes us to get out and work, and that's what we're doing. That's why the three of us are on this blue wall bus tour going through Wisconsin, Michigan and Pennsylvania. I feel really, really confident.

GOV. GRETCHEN WHITMER (D-MI): I agree it's going to be close, but you cannot roll up your sleeves if you're wringing your hands. So the antidote to apathy is action. We are working our tails off. And I think Michigan goes with Harris-Walz. But we're not going to take any, make any assumptions. We're going to do the work all the way through.

RADDATZ: I have a feeling you're going to say the same thing. Wisconsin.

GOV. TONY EVERS (D-WI): Good guess, good guess. Yeah, absolutely. This is, this is a blue wall here, and it's going to be close. We got a good ground game. There's a lot of energy, absolutely.

RADDATZ: And Governor Shapiro, let me go back to you. You got the biggest prize, with 19 electoral votes. All the pundits and pollsters say Pennsylvania is a must win or she will not win. Do you agree with that?

SHAPIRO: Look, I think it's a must win, and we want to win here. And I think both candidates believe that Pennsylvania is critical. I just think we've got a better candidate. We got a better message. And what we're experiencing as we're out, is we're seeing a whole lot more energy. And so I'm feeling really good, not just about the way the votes seem to be lining up, which we get close to the end here, but the enthusiasm we have, and what that means for neighbors convincing other neighbors to step up and do their part to protect our freedom and democracy.

RADDATZ: You took Beaver County, which is Trump country. You took it in 2022, you're working hard to get Beaver County. We were out there just a few weeks ago. It is definitely Trump country.

SHAPIRO: The good people of Beaver County are common sense. They're thoughtful. They want to know what these candidates are going to do to improve their lives. They saw Donald Trump in charge for four years, and he didn't make the situation in Beaver County better. In fact, he brought more chaos. And the good folks out there are really discerning, they're careful, and I believe that Kamala Harris is going to perform really well there.

RADDATZ: And Governor Whitmer, look at the polls. I mean just a couple of elections ago, this, this blue wall was almost guaranteed for Democrats. I know you've seen enthusiasm. I know you're working hard, but the polls really aren’t showing that. Who did the Democrats lose over these years?

WHITMER: I think if you even go back eight years, all three of our states went for Donald Trump, and then all three of us were elected and reelected. And this is, I think, you don't win a state like Michigan by 11 points without a lot of people coming over, independents and Republicans. And that's part of our missive, as we've been to Wisconsin and Michigan and now here in Pennsylvania, there's a seat at the table for everyone. We understand that there are Republicans out there who are lamenting that Donald Trump is their nominee. They're not sure about our agenda. We're making a seat at the table for them. We are not writing anyone off.

RADDATZ: I want to go back to the polls, it is razor thin and some of the averages they see Trump actually making gains. I know you're saying you have faith in these voters and they understand what, what they saw in Donald Trump years ago, but the polls just aren't showing it.

WHITMER: Listen, the only people that are not surprised about these polls are us three. We all expect this. We are not upset about it, we’re not scared. We're determined to make sure we do everything in our power to win this thing.

And while this is going to be close, I'd much rather be playing our hand than theirs. We got a better candidate. We've got receipts on the issues that matter to the American people, on the economy, individual rights, affordable housing, et cetera. And we got a better ground game. And we're going to, we're going to do the work.

RADDATZ: Governor Evers, it is hard to believe that people are still undecided at this point. They know who Donald Trump is. They know what he has done. They saw the Biden administration, and many of them are not happy with it and tie Kamala Harris in there. So is this a -- an election where it's not so much in this ground game going after the undecided, but the unenthused?

GOV. TONY EVERS (D), WISCONSIN: I do believe it's undecided. I mean, I think there's plenty of enthusiasm on both sides of Wisconsin. You know, it's close. I won by 1 percent and I tripled it the next time, 3 percent, and so, we anticipated this right from the get go. But I talk to people just about every day that are, are torn about what to -- what to do, how they're going to vote. And so I think there are people that can be convinced.

RADDATZ: What are they waiting to hear? I mean, they have watched Donald Trump. They have watched Kamala Harris over these past few months. How can they be undecided?

EVERS: There are people that, frankly, don't follow this on a daily basis. There's people that don't follow the polls. There's people that just don't -- you know, they go to work, they got kids at home, they do the -- do the job with the kids, they get up the next day.

These polls look at a small number. I know they’re -- I know it's a science, but at the end of the day, I run into people all the time that just haven’t given it a thought, and so we're going to help ‘em.

RADDATZ: When you think about Donald Trump, and his appeal, to all of your voters in your states, to half of the voters in your states -- what do you think the appeal is of Donald Trump to people? What do you think they like about him in the end?

SHAPIRO: I think there's a lot of folks who are frustrated that they don't see government solving problems in their communities. I think what people are craving are leaders who know how to get stuff done for them. It's about ordinary Americans trying to get through their day and wanting to know that folks in government are looking out for them.

Donald Trump talks a good game about that. Now he has a history of failing to deliver over and over and over again, and I think part of our responsibility here is to make sure we're letting folks know that despite the noise, despite the bluster, despite the words that come out of his mouth, they're not only empty promises now, as Gretchen says, we got the receipts to prove that when he had the keys to the White House before, he failed the American people time and time again.

RADDATZ: But to that point, again -- back to those polls, the economy, immigration, by far, those people who are polled, trust Donald Trump. So, so what you're saying about, look, he didn't do the job back then, they don't think that, and they think he can do it now better than Kamala Harris. His message is getting through on, on immigration and on the economy. Yours is not.

Governor Whitmer?

WHITMER: He's a charlatan. He’s convinced people that he is strong when he's actually very weak.

He told Michiganders he wouldn't let a single auto plant close under his watch. Six closed. We lost 280,000 jobs in Michigan.

He just came into Detroit and denigrated the city of Detroit, shows his ignorance. He doesn't appreciate what the renaissance actually is in the city of Detroit. He denigrated auto workers, saying children could do their jobs.

He likes to pretend he's tough, but in the reality, he's weak.

RADDATZ: Again, people are still supporting Donald Trump, despite what you’re saying. His message is getting through.

EVERS: Donald Trump has done nothing for the state of Wisconsin. And you know, we have -- we have the best economy we've ever had, the largest budget -- budget work that we've ever had, and we're in a good shape, and people are making more money than they ever made.

So, we're, we're in a good place, and it had nothing to do with Donald Trump.

RADDATZ: Let's go back to the economy. You say we’re in good shape. People I talked to in this state, in your state, in your state, don't seem to be feeling that.

Yes, things have improved. You look at inflation, grocery prices are the thing they always talk about. So Donald Trump's message is getting through. Kamala Harris' message, since she is tied in with the Biden administration, even if things are improving, they're still blaming her for that.

SHAPIRO: Look, Martha, respectfully, I don't hear that when I'm out and about. I do understand that Pennsylvanians and others across this country continue to struggle with the cost of things. By the way, it's one of the reasons why here in Pennsylvania, on a bipartisan basis, we've cut taxes four different times for small businesses, for families, for seniors, to put more money back in people's pockets, the very kinds of policies that Kamala Harris is running on. I want a commander-in-chief like Kamala Harris who wants to talk us up, who wants to lift us up, not knock us down every single time they get the microphone the way Donald Trump does.

RADDATZ: Are you concerned about turnout in the Black and Latino communities – you've had a, kind of a massive drop in the turnout in Black voters in Wisconsin.

GOV. TONY EVERS, (D) WISCONSIN: Yeah, I think we're in a better place this time. We have a much different ground game. I feel confident that it's going to be much larger than the last time. And it's important to make sure that all people in Wisconsin feel that this election means something to them, and so we've upped the ground game in all our areas around the state, whether it's rural, whether it's in the Milwaukee area. It's going to be better.

RADDATZ: And Governor Whitmer, let’s talk about the Arab-American vote in Michigan, the uncommitted delegates. Others are flat out saying, we’re not endorsing Kamala Harris, we won’t vote for her, we will not vote for her because of what's going on in Gaza. How do you convince them?

WHITMER: Well, I think it's by continuing to keep the dialogue open, there are a lot of people in the community that are supporting Kamala Harris. There are some who are supporting Donald Trump, and some who are saying, I'm not going to endorse, but we'll let the people decide what they want to do. You know, at the end of the day, I think the biggest question is, who's got a plan that is going to make your life better? You know, whether it is on that issue or any other. Donald Trump –

RADDATZ: Well, that issue, that is a very, very big issue –

WHITMER: Yeah, it's a huge issue –

RADDATZ: For that community, and they–

WHITMER: No question–

RADDATZ: – have not seen it.

WHITMER: And Martha, you know, our Jewish community is hurting as well, our Arab community and our Muslim community and our Palestinian community, these are not monolithic. They're all feeling a level of pain that is hard for most people to recognize and to understand.

But, at the end of the day, do you want a leader who's going to throw gas on the fire to keep you angry so that you tune out? Or do you want one who's going to try to get in there and solve problems, who cares about you and your family, who wants to bring peace to the region and get the hostages returned and rebuild the area and support families here in the United States, that's what Kamala Harris offers.

RADDATZ: I want to talk about the election -- Election Day. When do you think we’ll have a result, Governor Evers?

EVERS: Midnight.

RADDATZ: Midnight?

EVERS: Yeah.

RADDATZ: Governor Shapiro?

SHAPIRO: I think Republican --

RADDATZ: Because you know what happened last time --

(CROSSTALK)

SHAPIRO: Republican and Democratic clerks of elections acted so honorably last time in ‘20 and by the way, again in ‘21, ‘22, ‘23, and they will again in ‘24 in counting the votes.

We want to make sure we have an accurate count, and like we did in 2020, have a free and fair, safe and secure election. We did make one concrete change since the last time we had a presidential race, and that is, once the counties begin counting -- it's 7 a.m. on Election Day -- they can't stop, meaning they have to keep going.

The last time, some of the counties stopped, went home, slept, had some, you know, water and food, and came back. This time, they've made plans to go all the way through, so I expect it'll be sooner than what we had last time.

RADDATZ: Governor Whitmer, you’ve already heard what Donald Trump said this week.

TRUMP PBD PODCAST (OCT. 17): If the election is not rigged, we're going to win. If it is rigged, I guess that's a different story

RADDATZ: If Kamala Harris wins, what's your big worry?

WHITMER: He's already laying the groundwork to undermine the outcome of this election. His running mate has said he believes Donald Trump won the last election. They are election deniers. They are the people that inspired the attempted insurrection at our nation's capital and now call it a ‘day of love.’ I mean, they are trying to pull the wool over the American public's eyes once again, and we're anticipating that they'll continue to try to do that when they lose this election, assuming they lose this election. But I'm going to make sure every vote gets counted. I want to protect our, our voices in Michigan, and I'm going to -- we've made it easier for more people to participate.

EVERS: The people that do the work are, are local folks, they’re our friends and neighbors, and they've done a great job. I see nothing for people to be concerned about. We had all sorts of challenges last time. We'll follow the law, we'll get through it, and life will go on.

SHAPIRO: Look, I've got great confidence in the good people in Pennsylvania to count the votes accurately and to respect the will of the people. I do not have confidence that Donald Trump won't whine about it, won't put out dangerous rhetoric and mis- and disinformation. That's the threat, and I will tell the good people of this Commonwealth and this country, we're prepared for anything Donald Trump throws at us, and we're going to make sure the will of the people is protected.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: Our thanks to the governors.

And coming up, Jon Karl has the latest from Donald Trump on the campaign trail, and New Hampshire Governor Chris Sununu, a Republican, joins me. We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS (D), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: A second Trump term would be a huge risk for America, and dangerous. Donald Trump is increasingly unstable and unhinged.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Kamala Harris is stepping up her criticism of the former president and his inflammatory rhetoric on the campaign trail. Donald Trump escalating his profane attacks last night.

Jon Karl is tracking it all.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: At a rally in Latrobe, Pennsylvania, Donald Trump delivered a meandering and profanity laced diatribe against Kamala Harris, taking a campaign that has been filled with personal attacks to a nasty new level.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT, 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: So you have to tell Kamala Harris that you've had enough, that you just can't take it anymore. We can't stand you. You're a (EXPLETIVE DELETED) vice president.

KARL: He began his remarks by speaking for more than 10 minutes about golfing legend Arnold Palmer who was born in Latrobe. Trump's tribute to Palmer took a strange and vulgar turn as he started to talk about the golfer's manliness and how he looked when he came out of the shower. Seriously.

TRUMP: Arnold Palmer was all man, and I say that in all to respect to women, and I love women. But this guy, this guy, this is a guy that was all man. When he took showers with the other pros, they came out of there, they said, oh, my god. That's unbelievable.

KARL: All of this on a week that began with Trump suggesting he could use the military to go after his political enemies.

TRUMP: I think the bigger problem are the people from within. We have some very bad people. We have some sick people. Radical left lunatics. And I think they -- and they should be very easily handled by, if necessary, by National Guard or if necessary by the military.

KARL: In that same interview, Trump said his political opponents here at home pose a greater threat to America than Russia, China or criminals crossing the border.

Trump later walked back his comments about using the military but there was no question he was referring to his political opponents as the, quote, "enemy within." He said over and over again this week.

TRUMP: It is the enemy from within, and they're very dangerous. They're Marxists and communists and fascists. And they're sick.

When you see the radical left programs that they're espousing and we have a true enemyfrom within -- they hate when I say that -- but whether we like it, and I think in many ways, it's more dangerous from the outside enemies that we have.

KARL (voice-over): Kamala Harris has seized on Trump's words playing them at her rallies.

TRUMP: The worst people are the enemies from within. The enemy from within.

HARRIS: He's talking about the enemy within our country Pennsylvania. He's talking about what he considered is anyone who doesn't support him or who will not bend to his will, an enemy of our country.

KARL: Asked this week if he would do his part to guarantee a peaceful transfer of power, Trump insisted that the last one was peaceful, bizarrely claiming that January 6th was a day of love and peace.

TRUMP: And it was love and peace, and some people went to the Capitol and a lot of strange things happened there a lot of strange things with people being waved into the capital by police, with people, screaming go in, with that -- that never got into trouble, you know? I don't want to mention names, but you know who they are. A lot of strange things happen. But you had a peaceful -- very peaceful, I left.

KARL: Over 500 people Trump supporters have been charged with assaulting police officers on that, quote, day of love and peace.

In another bit of revisionist history this week, Trump invoked Abraham Lincoln as perhaps his favorite president, but with a big caveat.

TRUMP: Well, Lincoln was probably a great president. Although I’ve always said, why wasn't that settled? You know? I’m a guy that -- it doesn't make sense we had a civil war.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (on camera): Of course, the Civil War started after the southern states left the Union to ensure their right to enslave people. It's not clear what kind of compromise Trump is talking about -- Martha.

RADDATZ: Thanks so much, Jon.

Joining me now is the Republican governor of New Hampshire, Chris Sununu, a former supporter of Nikki Haley, who’s now backing former President Trump.

Good morning to you, Governor.

GOV. CHRIS SUNUNU (R), NEW HAMPSHIRE: Good morning.

RADDATZ: When you hear a piece like that -- I know you think Donald Trump will win this election. You’re confident about that. But do you worry -- let -- let’s go back to the beginning of those comments and -- and last night and his comments about Arnold Palmer and using profanity against Kamala Harris. Concern you?

SUNUNU: Look, I don’t like it. I don’t like the profanity. I don’t like personal attacks. I don’t like any of that stuff.

I'm a results-driven guy when it comes to public service. But nothing new, and nothing that’s going to move the dial when it comes to this election right now. It’s an outrageous statement by Donald Trump. OK, must be a Friday night, right?

I mean. it’s just par for the course. He speaks in hyperbole. He gets his crowds riled up. I don’t like it. You don’t like it. A lot of folks don’t like it.

I -- I would -- I will tell you this, I think one of the mistakes is if -- if Kamala Harris thinks that just repeating the crazy things Trump says is going to garner her those swing voters, that’s not what they’re going to the polls on. They’ve heard that. That’s established. That’s nothing new.

Folks want to -- you know, the real comparison is, is your life better than it was four years ago? Do we like the open border policy? Cost of living. This woke-ism and cancel culture, this cultural change people want to see out of D.C., those are the things that – that these -- this last -- I'll call it, 6 to 7 percent of swing voters that might not have made their mind up yet. It’s a smaller number every single day. Those are the things that those folks are going to -- are going to go to the polls on.

And who is that agent of change, right? Do they believe Kamala Harris will be an agreement of change? I -- I personally think she’s blown a couple great opportunities. She’s been handed multiple softballs. What’s going to be different from you than -- than the Biden-Harris administration, and she says, well, nothing comes to mind. Not much.

So, a really bad and missed opportunities --

RADDATZ: Governor – Governor, let’s stick to Trump. Let -- let -- let’s stick to -- let’s stick to Trump.

SUNUNU: I -- well, I know that’s -- the show and just talking about Trump, but Trump’s outrageous statements are nothing new. That’s all I'm saying.

RADDATZ: OK. Whatever you say about that, they -- they were escalated to some point last night.

You endorsed Nikki Haley. Donald Trump hasn’t exactly extended an olive branch to her.

Does he need to reach out, instead of just that base, and riling up those -- that base? And you say they may love those kinds of things. Does he need to reach out to more moderates?

SUNUNU: No, not necessarily -- not moderate voters politically. He needs to reach out to the swing voters who are -- who are really on the fence. And those can be independent, they can be moderate Republicans, they can be moderate Democrats.

Kind of -- some of that -- that union bloc. They’re just absolutely tired of not being able to afford to take their family to McDonald's.

So, it’s -- it’s not a moderate voter, it’s a swing voter, which is -- which is different.

In terms of the Nikki Haley voter, if you will, the vast majority of Nikki Haley voters are voting for Donald Trump. There’s no question about that. There’s maybe three or four or five percent. Those never Trumpers. And one the Chris Christie types, I like to call them, they’re where they are and they’ve been there for a long time. They’re probably not moving.

And -- and again, they put kind of character and that kind of leadership style as a top priority. That's everyone's choice. And -- and the other message I always have -- I've gone back and forth with George on it, you can't criticize people -- and individuals and -- and Americans for having different priorities. For some people, the open border is the top priority. For some people, they just want their family to be able to afford childcare and housing and that's their top priority, so they're going to vote for change. Don't criticize those folks for that.

And my -- my other big message is, that's the American -- that's what Americans are talking about, maybe not those in the media or those here in government and all that. But the more we can listen to what's happening on the ground, I think they'll be more understanding why Kamala Harris has raised a billion dollars and isn't winning. She's the new candidate and isn't winning. And in all these swing states, right now, it looks --

RADDATZ: Governor --

SUNUNU: The polls do say that Trump probably wins.

So, I -- my message just is, let's listen to what's happening on the ground, what the priorities of the Americans and especially those swing voters are. (INAUDIBLE) --

RADDATZ: Let -- let's talk about the economy then.

SUNUNU: -- politically moderate, but they are swing voters on different issues.

Sure.

RADDATZ: Let's talk -- let's talk about the economy again. Trump is clearly the choice of the voters to handle the economy, but he's proposed 60 percent tariffs on China, and this week suggested as high as 50 percent across-the-board tariffs on all other countries. Economists predict that would cause inflation to spike again. So, how are those good for Americans?

SUNUNU: Look, I -- the tariff issues are complex. There's no question about it. I don't love every tariff proposal he's put forward. But when it comes to the voter, where this election's going, no voter is voting on tariffs. It's a very complex thing.

They're only -- when it comes to the economy, what they're -- what that really means is, can I afford to bring my kids to McDonald's? Can I afford to pay the rent? Right? The economy really translates to a cost of living issue when it comes to people and the ballot box.

Now, they'll -- if and when he becomes president, they'll have to sort out the tariff issue. Is he using it for leverage against China, to ratchet things down, to force better negotiations, that will all play itself out. But the average voter doesn't look at that stuff right now.

So, from a political standpoint, it's -- it's quasi meaningless. It's really just, you know, it's the cost of living. Can I afford to buy stuff today that I could buy four years ago? You know, and the Bidenomics thing I think is really coming back to haunt -- haunt Biden and -- and Kamala Harris especially. When you're told by the government you're fine, Bidenomics is working for you, it's -- it's the worst form of gaslighting. It's so condescending because not all the ads or all the messages from a politician are going to tell you that your lived experience isn't real.

RADDATZ: Governor --

SUNUNU: And for the average American, their lived experience is credit card bills, and energy bills, and things that they can't afford. That's the economic message that people are taking to the ballot box.

RADDATZ: Governor, I -- I -- I want to go back to some of the comments that former President Trump has made, threatening to put his enemies within -- having the National Guard or even the military take care of them.

You say that's all hyperbole and smile, but those things have real consequences. There are people who have been threatened at FEMA and elsewhere over comments that the president and J.D. Vance have made. Does that give you pause ever, as you still continue to support Donald Trump?

SUNUNU: Again, I think it should give everyone pause. Nobody likes that -- that -- that type of stuff and that type of hyperbole. But, let's look, he was president for four years. Did he go after his political enemies? Did he weaponize the Department of Justice and go after Hillary Clinton? He said -- remember when he said, we're going to lock her up, lock her up. Of course, he didn't do that, right? He's trying to get his base riled up and he's tried to expose some of the injustices that he might see within that system.

RADDATZ: So, what should his supporters believe? What -- what should his supporters believe? You think this is hyperbole, but what he's saying now they should believe all that what he's going to do about the border, what he's going to do about the economy, that's where you draw the line? We've just got a very short time here.

SUNUNU: So, no, what he's saying is, I'm a fighter. I'm always going to fight. I'm never going to lay down. Not just for himself personally, but for other Americans. And that's why other Americans galvanize to that. They connect with it on a fiery level. They want a fighter, someone who's going to stand up.

Now, again, I don't think he's going to go and weaponize -- he didn't do it the first term. He's going to necessarily do it this term. But he's making a point that we want leaders that are fighters and stand up for their fellow Americans.

RADDATZ: OK, thanks for joining us this morning, Governor. We really appreciate your time.

SUNUNU: You bet.

RADDATZ: The Roundtable is up next, breaking down the race with just 16 days to go. We'll be right back.

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RADDATZ: The roundtable’s all here to take on all the week’s politics.

We’re back in a moment.

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RADDATZ: We are back. The powerhouse roundtable is all here Former DNC chair Donna Brazile, “National Review” editor Ramesh Ponnuru, NPR White House correspondent Asma Khalid, and “New Yorker” staff writer Susan Glasser.

Good morning to all of you.

And, Donna, I want to go straight to you.

Those governors sounded so confident that Kamala Harris will win. Are you that confident?

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHARI & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I’m semi-confident. I’m more confident today than I was, say, two weeks ago when I didn't see as many people on the ground. Yes, I saw the paid canvassers.

But, you know, going out there, Martha, experiencing, you know, just seeing volunteers get their signs and go knock on doors, it's better today than it was weeks ago.

That being said, I’m glad the campaign is using all of the surrogates including former President Bill Clinton. Seeing Bill Clinton in the McDonald's is just, you know, music --

RADDATZ: Takes you back, doesn’t it?

BRAZILE: Hell, yeah, it takes me back. I had to -- to all beef patty special sauce, I forget which one.

Anyway, this is a good time for Democrats and it's a good time because Kamala Harris is making a strong closing argument. She's talking about the American people, helping to lift those who are still in poverty, the middle class that's feeling squeezed, while Donald Trump is talking about himself.

You're supposed to finish strong. You're not supposed to finish by insulting half the American people.

RADDATZ: And, Asma, from a -- from a reporter standpoint, when you look at this, has she really made the case? She had a chance in the -- in the Bret Baier interview on Fox News to say she was the change candidate. She didn't really outline that much.

ASMA KHALID, NPR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: She did not really outline that she was going to be fundamentally different than President Biden. I mean, that is a dance that many vice presidents have to navigate.

What I will say is I spent some time with her out in Wisconsin and Michigan this week and look, she is working very hard and the Democrats are particularly looking at sort of strategically margins in some of these states.

And where they are leaning into and you're going to see this, this week, are suburban voters, right? Suburban voters in Detroit, Milwaukee and Philly, and I will say that in some places like that Oakland County, Michigan, outside Detroit, the crowds are large and energized, and she is strategically playing clips of Donald Trump in his own words to the audience. That's a message that's resonating with them, that's where they’re hoping play is in the suburbs.

That all being said though, I will say Trump is also increasingly looking at his margins, right? He was trying to court some Arab American voters in Michigan, some Black voters. I think at this point, it all feels very confusing and tight to me, more confusing than both I think most recent two election cycles.

RADDATZ: And, Ramesh, Kamala Harris is playing a lot of clips of Donald Trump, she has some doozies now to play about last night -- Arnold Palmer and his, ahem, manhood.

Just a reaction when you -- when you hear these kinds of things over and over.

You heard Chris Sununu say, hey, it's just hyperbole.

RAMESH PONNURU, NATIONAL REVIEW EDITOR & WASHINGTON POST CONTRIBUTING COLUMNIST & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Certainly not a traditional closing argument in a presidential campaign.

I think that what we are seeing is a couple of things. One, Trump is declining. He is exhibiting less control. He's always been meandering, but it's gone to a new level. He's always had a streak of vulgarity. It's gone to a new level as well.

The other thing is and this is something that --

RADDATZ: You mean just because of things like he said last night, that's the decline you see?

PONNURU: I -- if you compare the way he speaks to the way he spoke in 2016, let alone to the way he spoke in clips from the 1980s, it's not the same person. You see a decline there and it is I think related to age. I think that was a legitimate issue when people raised it about Joe Biden and it's a legitimate issue when people raise it about Donald Trump right now.

But the other thing is there's a degree of confidence on the part of Trump that there's this sense among Republicans in general that this election is theirs. A sense you don't see on the Democratic side.

Maybe this reflects something on the ground, maybe this just reflects a difference in attitude, and it's going to be overconfidence on the Republican side.

But you don't get that sense -- when you watch what Trump does or when you listen to other Republicans that there's a lot of strategic thinking about we've got to get this vote and this vote and this vote and just barely eke out a win. They're acting as though they're going to have a landslide.

RADDATZ: And just your reaction to that, Susan?

SUSAN GLASSER, STAFF WRITER, THE NEW YORKER: Yeah, I think that Ramesh is really right. You know, in a way, it feels like it's another election between the technocrats versus Godzilla, I mean, you know, that they're running such different campaigns. That's one thing that leaps out.

I do think that you're seeing a noticeable decline in Trump in terms of his ability to communicate, in terms of his certainly, lack of discipline. There was a metric that he speaking twice as long at his rallies as he used to even in his previous campaigns. But he's also -- it's the escalation in his rhetoric.

I was very struck when Governor Sununu did what, you know, Republicans need to do people like him who aren't MAGA Republicans. They need to avert their gaze from what Donald Trump is actually doing and saying in order to be able to make those points, to justify the kinds of lies and disinformation.

In particular, Donald Trump this past week said something so fundamentally antithetical to the Constitution when he said he wants to use the U.S. military against his political enemies. And --

RADDATZ: We know he's trying to walk that back.

GLASSER: But you know what? Chris Sununu said this is just rhetoric. And I would point out that Donald Trump spent his entire last year of his presidency actually trying to use the U.S. Military in the streets of this country. The reason he wasn't able to was because of his own attorney general, his own defense secretary, and his own chairman of the joint chiefs -- none of whom would be in a second Trump Administration.

RADDATZ: And Asma, I want to go back to you just -- all -- all these points and talking about what Donald Trump talks about at rallies and other things, but go back to the issues. Voters still trust him on the economy --

KHALID: Yeah.

RADDATZ: -- and immigration, by far.

KHALID: You know, I was struck by the interview he did with Bloomberg this week. I -- I went back and listened to it. I spent a lot of time listening to Harris. And in that, what you hear from Trump is, he is an effective, I would say, communicator, storyteller in certain ways. He told the story of being able to get a good deal on the purchase of Air Force One. It is a story that is digestible for audiences. It is a story that, I think we focus a lot on what he says in rallies, no doubt. But what I hear from voters is, they say that they're looking at the economy. The economy has not been as strong over these last couple of years -- they feel on inflation purposes, right? Purchase -- price purchases as they felt this nostalgia for the earlier era.

That is a challenge for her. Immigration is a challenge for her. But that all being said, I think that this fundamentally comes down on the Democrat side to two big issues, and they are trying to lean into, reproductive rights and democracy, and that's what they're continuously leaning into. I -- I just don't know though like --

(CROSSTALK)

KHALID: -- what people are going to vote on. I think that this feels like, I go back to -- it feels incredibly confusing out there. I don't have a clear sense of what people are genuinely voting. It feels like the run up to the 2022 midterms.

RADDATZ: And -- and -- and you've been out there. I've been out there. I mean, they do talk about the economy. It is grocery bills.

KHALID: That's yes.

RADDATZ: I mean, 16 days left on, that's not a lot of time to say, Hey, your grocery bills are -- are -- are improving or -- or anything that she needs to be saying in these last days.

BRAZILE: Because you know what? I think the Biden-Harris Administration and -- and Kamala Harris in particular, as she talk about the future, the new way forward, it's about how we lower costs, how we lower energy costs, how we lower costs at -- at the - at the grocery stores. She has to keep talking about that. But you're right, she has to talk about freedom. She has to talk about democracy, and she has to reach people that often don't hear from us on TV and on the radio. That's why she's leaning in with these podcasts.

You got to go right where the people are. And right now, as young people, she's going to need them the way, and this is her birthday, so I want to wish her a happy birthday, but I'm going to say to the vice president, keep on working girl, these last 18 days, we'll roll it in.

RADDATZ: 16. OK.

(LAUGH)

BRAZILE: 16, all right. (Inaudible).

(LAUGH)

RADDATZ: She -- she -- she is going after young voters. There is a gender gap. There is also something else, black voters. She is going after black voters hard. She needs to, I mean, you've seen some loss of black voters, especially across those battleground states where I was.

PONNURU: I think the polling has been consistent on this, so much so that it is not a question of whether Trump does better among black voters than he did in 2020, but how much better he does. There's a racial depolarization going on in our electorate where you're going to maybe see more white voters for Harris than you'd seen in the -- in the past for Democrats. And you're going to see more non-white voters for the Republicans.

RADDATZ: And -- and Susan, I want to turn here at the end. We just have a couple of minutes left to what happened in the Middle East. You are a foreign policy expert. They -- the Israelis took out the head of Hamas, Yahya Sinwar. Do you think that will make a difference? And any chance at this point, do -- do you think the ceasefire will go forward?

GLASSER: Yeah.

RADDATZ: And the hostages will be released?

GLASSER: Yeah, I mean, I think, look, I think to succinctly sum it up right, unfortunately, the -- the story here is that Sinwar is dead, but Hamas is not. It was a remarkable victory for Israel, not long after the first anniversary of October 7th. You've now seen Israel take out not only the leader of Hamas, but the leader of Hezbollah, many of the other commanders of both Hezbollah and Hamas. And it would be an opportunity, potentially, for the Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu to sort of say, to take the win and to move away.

But there's two huge problems with that. Number one, Netanyahu's own political coalition is farther to the right even than he might be inclined to be. They seem to want to continue the war. And number two, you've seen that Hamas has survived previous leadership transitions and wants to keep fighting on. That is the story right now. And of course, the tragedy is, we don't even really know how many hostages are still alive. The meaningful ability to have negotiations with a kind of a leaderless group at this point, like Hamas, is very much in question, Martha.

RADDATZ: And -- and of course, Israel will undoubtedly take action against Iran in the coming days, we don't know to what extent. OK, everybody, stay on it. We (LAUGH) -- we'll talk to you in these next 16 days. Thanks so much.

Up next, could rogue election officials disrupt the 2024 vote certification? Terry Moran has the latest installment of our series "Protecting Your Vote."

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RADDATZ: Now to our month-long series on the integrity of the voting process, and this morning ABC's Terry Moran reports from Nevada on whether rogue officials could reject the will of the voters in the 2024 election certification process in key battleground states.

It's the latest in our series "Protecting Your Vote."

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TERRY MORAN, ABC NEWS SENIOR NATIONAL CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): It's feed time at Mike Clark's ranch in northwestern Nevada.

MICHAEL CLARK, WASHOE COUNTY, NEVADA, COUNTY COMMISSIONER: You're a good girl.

MORAN: He's 73 years old and he's been ranching and selling real estate here in Washoe County for decades.

CLARK: And I get up in the morning, go outside, then it's off to the barn.

MORAN: He's also a local political leader, elected last year as one of five Washoe County commissioners. A Republican, Clark proudly sees himself as an outsider in the county government.

CLARK: Quit interrupting me. How dare you?

MORAN: How are your relations with the fellow commissioners?

CLARK: Horrible. Want me to candy-coat it?

MORAN (voice-over): Now Mike Clark is at the center of something that could impact the 2024 presidential election because this past summer he did this.

CLARK: I'm not going to co-sign for this. I'm not going to vouch for it.

MORAN: Clark and two of his Republican colleagues refused to certify the results of a local primary election. They cited alleged mismanagement and they questioned the accuracy of the county's voter rolls.

CLARK: I'm not an election denier, but what I am is somebody who's going to say that they don't understand how to keep correct rolls. I also had legal advice that particular day that told me that I should vote my conscience.

MORAN: The commission's decision and the legal advice that Mike Clark got to vote his conscience alarmed Nevada Secretary of State Cisco Aguilar, a Democrat.

MORAN: What's wrong with a county commissioner looking at the vote total saying, I can't sign off on this? Not certifying.

CISCO AGUILAR, (D-NV) SECRETARY OF STATE: But that's not what Nevada law says. It is a ministerial duty to certify the election.

MORAN (voice-over): Election certification, which has long been an obscure and routine part of our elections, emerged as a potential flashpoint in 2020.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Breaking overnight, Republican officials in Michigan refused to certify results of the election.

MORAN (voice-over): When two members of the Elections Board in Detroit, reportedly under pressure from President Donald Trump, refused to certify the presidential election results in Wayne County, where Joe Biden won convincingly, before changing their minds.

SEAN MORALES-DOYLE, BRENNAN CENTER'S VOTING RIGHTS PROGRAM DIRECTOR: What was a wild and desperate idea in 2020 has kind of caught on with certifying officials in the last couple of elections.

MORAN (voice-over): According to one watchdog group, since 2020, more than two dozen county officials in at least eight states, including crucial battlegrounds like Georgia, North Carolina, Arizona, and Pennsylvania, have initially voted against certifying election results.

MORALES-DOYLE: I think there's a very high likelihood of election officials refusing to certify in some counties in 2024. It won't be a successful tactic to overturn the outcome of our election or to stop certification, but it will cause chaos and distrust in the meantime.

MORAN (voice-over): All 50 states make election certification by county officials a mandatory duty to prevent local partisan politicians from meddling in results, while allowing election disputes to be resolved through recounts, audits and the courts.

CLARK: It's with a heavy heart today that I -- that I change my vote.

MORAN (voice-over): A week after voting no on certification, Mike Clark reversed course.

CLARK: I have been told that a failure to vote to certify this election can subject me to criminal prosecution.

MORAN: Are you going to certify an election in November?

CLARK: Well, I guess I'm going to have to. I don't want to have an argument with the -- the attorney general.

MORAN (voice-over): If Clark keeps his word, the certification controversy in Washoe County at least may be settled for now. But the certification process, once an uneventful part of local government, is now yet another wedge issue dividing the nation.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: Our thanks to Terry. We'll be right back.

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RADDATZ: And be sure to tune in for that this evening. And that's all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

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