'This Week' Transcript 12-22-24: Sen. John Fetterman, Sen.-elect John Curtis & Chris Christie

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, December 22 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR (voice over): Christmas crisis averted. Speaker Johnson finds a way to fund the government, just hours before a shutdown.

REP. MIKE JOHNSON (R-LA): We're grateful that everyone stood together to do the right thing.

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES (D-NY): This is a victory for the American people.

KARL (voice over): The deal does not include the one thing Donald Trump demanded.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: The president's right to want to get rid of the debt ceiling, but we're right to say, not without spending cuts.

KARL (voice over): It's a temporary fix, setting up another showdown at the start of Trump's second term.

JOHNSON: We are set up for a big and important new start in January.

KARL (voice over): As Congress contends with the Elon Musk factor.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Everybody agreed, and then it was blown up by Elon Musk.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Last time I checked, Elon Musk doesn't have a vote in Congress.

KARL (voice over): This morning, we have the fallout. Rachael Bade with what looms next on Capitol Hill. Chris Christie and the roundtable on Musk and Trump.

Plus –

KARL: So are you going to be Donald Trump's favorite Democrat in the Senate?

KARL (voice over): Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman on how he'll work with Trump in the next Congress.

And –

REP. JOHN CURTIS, (R) UTAH SENATOR-ELECT (R) UTAH: I did get more votes than him in Utah. Does that give me a mandate?

KARL (voice over): Our conversation with incoming Senator John Curtis, who hopes for Trump's success, but is not afraid to defy him.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

If you were watching Congress this week, you might have thought for a moment that Donald Trump is already president. Along with his most high-profile and wealthiest adviser, Trump upended a bipartisan spending deal that had been months in the making. But the power of a president-elect, just like the power of a president, only goes so far.

And while Trump's hold on the Republican Party is not in doubt, we saw that his power to get Congress to do what he wants has its limits.

As Congress veered towards a shutdown, Trump made only one nonnegotiable demand. He said that the bill to keep the government open must also increase or abolish the so-called debt ceiling. That's the amount the federal government can borrow to pay its bills. “Without this,” Trump said on social media, “we should never make a deal.”

And this wasn't just advice. It came with a warning that he might campaign against Republicans who dare to defy him. Trump declaring, “any republican that would be so stupid as to do this should and will be primaried.”

And even with that, 38 Republicans defied their president-elect. They were either unworried about his warning, or simply didn't take it seriously.

And in the end, 170 Republicans, along with almost all of the Democrats, approved a bill to temporarily fund the government without raising the debt ceiling. Again, defying Trump's demand.

Trump had very good reason to insist on raising or eliminating the debt ceiling. The government is on pace to hit the limit on how much it can borrow next spring. And if it is not raised, the government faces default, with dire consequences for the economy and for the Trump agenda. This week proved he won't be able to count on Republicans alone to avert that disaster.

One casualty of this shutdown mess may be the speaker of the House, Mike Johnson. He tried to do Trump's bidding, and he failed, hurting his standing with the president-elect and with at least some of his Republican colleagues. Will he be re-elected as speaker when Congress reconvenes on January 3rd? With a minuscule Republican majority, that could take a minor miracle.

On the show this morning, we'll hear from a Republican who defied Trump on the debt ceiling, and who will take the seat held by Mitt Romney in the Senate come January. We'll also hear from the man who may well become Donald Trump's only Democratic friend in the Senate.

I'm joined now by ABC News contributing political correspondent and “Politico” Capitol bureau chief, Rachael Bade.

So, Rachael, why did so many Republicans defy Trump?

RACHAEL BADE, POLITICO CAPITOL BUREAU CHIEF & SENIOR WASHINGTON COLUMNIST & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTING POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT: Well, you know, Jon, in a lot of ways I feel like President Trump was sort of asking for the impossible in this situation. I mean there's been a lot of hot takes out there that he in some way has lost his juice with Republicans, or his sway with the party. I don't buy that. And I'll tell you why.

I mean if you look at debt ceiling votes historically, this is a toxic vote for Republicans –

KARL: Yes.

BADE: Especially when you’re trying to raise the debt ceiling without corresponding spending cuts or really any spending cuts whatsoever.

And I went back and looked at a lot of the votes on the debt ceilings in past years, even when President Trump was president before, and way more Republicans opposed it. I'm talking about in the hundreds, up to 200 at some point. And so I'm surprised that only 38 Republicans actually opposed this.

The bigger issue, in my view, is this sheer breakdown in communication between President Trump and Speaker Johnson here. I mean, President Trump was apparently telling Johnson he wanted him to do this right after the election, that they’ve been talking about this for a long time. Johnson's folks have been sort of under the impression that this wasn't a big priority for President Trump until two days before the deadline when he came up and sort of blew up the deal.

Also, President Trump was under the impression that when he did add the debt ceiling to the CR, the continuing resolution, that it was actually going to pass. And that's why he sort of leaned in and tried to sort of say, look, Republicans, you need to do this. If he had known he was going to lose 38 Republicans, he wouldn't have done this. And so the relationship right now, I mean, they’ve got some work to do if they want to be effective next year.

KARL: Does Johnson get re-elected speaker on January 3rd?

BADE: It's the million dollar question right now, Jon. I will say, people have underestimated Johnson quite a bit in the past year and oftentimes he sort of, you know, outlasts his naysayers here. But the situation is different. I mean I've talked to a lot of Trump folks over the past couple of days, and Trump has really soured on him. It feels like something in this relationship has really broken over the past couple of days.

KARL: And he – let’s face it, he needs Trump to get re-elected speaker. I mean –

BADE: Absolutely, he needs Trump. And not only does he need the endorsement, he’s going to need President Trump to lean in, to actually get that gavel. And right now I'm hearing from people that there’s a real question about whether Trump’s going to lift a finger for him to do this.

I think the question Trump has to ask himself is, is ousting Johnson worth potentially upending his agenda at the beginning of the year and creating this sort of stall in momentum? I mean, look, we remember the speakership chaos when McCarthy was ousted.

KARL: Fifteen rounds with Kevin McCarthy, yes.

BADE: Of course. A whole month went by when we had no idea who was leading the conference. Right now this speakership vote is set for January 3rd. President Trump, his victory is set to be certified on January 6th. I was talking to somebody last night pretty high up in -- Republican on The Hill, who was saying that without a speaker, you can't certify his election. So, does he really want to do this? Does he want to stall his agenda? But perhaps he feels like it's worth it. I guess time will tell.

KARL: All right, Rachael Bade, thank you very much.

BADE: Thanks, Jon.

KARL: And let's bring in former New Jersey Governor, Chris Christie.

Governor Christie, look, you know what it's like to be part of Donald Trump's inner circle. You were in the inner, inner circle, 2016 through 2020. But I want to ask you about Musk. He's practically moved in to Mar-a-Lago. And my first question to you is, this is the wealthiest guy in the world. What is in it for him? Why has he become so attached to Trump?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: You know, sometimes it’s hard for folks to understand how intoxicating this can be for some people. But for Elon Musk, he doesn't stand in front of 20,000 people and have them chant his name, no matter how rich he is, which is what was happening to him on the campaign trail.

KARL: Unless he's with Trump.

CHRISTIE: That's right, on a regular basis, in front of Trump's crowds. And I will tell you a quick story about Donald Trump himself in 2016, experiencing this for the first time. I was on the plane with him, and he would typically have this box of documents from Trump Tower, from the real estate business that his body guy, Keith, would bring to him once the plane took off. And Trump opened the box, looked at a couple of the pages, and he turned to me, and he held some of the papers up and he said – he said, Chris, he said, who gives a damn about any of this stuff once I’ve been involved in your business?

And I think that Musk is experiencing the same thing. Setting off rockets are great. Electric vehicles are cool. And some of the other stuff he's doing. But it's not what he's experiencing right now.

KARL: Being right at the center of power and attention and all of that.

CHRISTIE: Yes.

KARL: How much influence does he really have on Trump? How much is he steering what Trump’s been doing?

CHRISTIE: In the beginning, I think anybody who plays this role for Trump, and you can go through the last eight years, Jon, and there have been different people who have played this exact role for Trump. It's different because it's Elon Musk. But when you initially begin in that role, you have enormous influence. And he loves having you around and he loves listening to you, and you're the best thing in the world. It will always decline. And that's what happens. And you'll see it. It will happen with Elon Musk too.

I used to say this to General Kelly when he first became chief of staff, today you're trading at 100 cents on the dollar. You will trade at zero. The question is, how long it will take.

KARL: Yes, he – certainly the case with Kelly. So, that's the question everybody is asking, how long does Musk last? I've heard some people say he's going to be with him at least through the midterms because he's going to be such a force in funding the Republican campaigns, but how long do you think – when does this end?

CHRISTIE: It ends when Trump believes that something has gone wrong, and he needs someone to blame and Musk becomes the person to blame. And no one knows how long that will take.

You know, look, our colleague, Reince Priebus, it was five months, and then he was gone. General Kelly, it was 18 months. You know, the people who sit at the very center with Trump have a shelf life, and that shelf life is influenced by outside events, as Speaker Johnson is finding out right now.

This is a guy who's done everything Trump's asked him to do. He's essentially gotten down on one knee to Trump on a regular basis, and now, we have this problem this week. You watch. Trump will run from him because that's what he does.

KARL: And the fact that Trump made this demand and he didn't get what he wanted, those Republicans defied him, he said he was going to primary, you know, challenge these guys in primaries. What happens? Does he just move on from that?

CHRISTIE: Of course, he does because he's going to have other things he needs to do, and guess what? He's back to the real world, Jon.

You know, when you’re not the president and you're just shooting orders from Mar-a-Lago -- that's one thing. Now that you're going to be the president again, and you have to actually get things done, he's going to have to work with these people.

And the king of debt, which is what Donald Trump has called himself over eight years.

KARL: Right, right.

CHRISTIE: There's a lot of people like Chip Roy, probably the best example, and others, who say, and I agree that this debt in this country has gotten completely out of control, and they want to use the debt ceiling as a moment to try to make government smaller. Donald Trump doesn't care about that, Jon, and it's going to be interesting to watch how that interplay happens.

KARL: All right. Governor Christie, thank you very much.

CHRISTIE: Merry Christmas, Jon.

KARL: Merry Christmas to you.

And now Congressman John Curtis, he was one of the 38 GOP house members who refused to go along with Trump's demands and Curtis will soon be the newest member of the Senate from the state of Utah, taking the seat of the retiring Senator Mitt Romney.

As the two make the transition, they echoed a similar message of unity. Romney in his farewell address to the Senate, and Curtis after he won his Senate seat on election night. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITT ROMNEY (R-UT): Our country's character is a reflection not just of its elected officials, but also of its people. I leave Washington to return to being one among them, and hope to be a voice of unity and virtue.

SEN-ELECT JOHN CURTIS (R-UT): Unity is needed in our nation. You know that, tonight, more than ever. And we should remember that oneness is not sameness, and compromise is not capitulation.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: But while Senator-elect Curtis may be open to compromise, his (ph) also willingness to buck his party's leadership. So, this week, I went to Capitol Hill to talk one-on-one with a man who says he doesn't want to be just a rubber stamp for Donald Trump.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: So I noticed you were on the Senate floor when Mitt Romney gave his farewell address.

CURTIS: Yes.

KARL: I'm not going to ask you, are you the next Mitt Romney in the Senate, but what's your sense of his legacy?

CURTIS: Well, listen, Mitt Romney, no matter what you say about him, everybody says he's true to who he is. And that's such a great attribute. I wish we could say that about all of -- all of us. And if they say that about me when I'm done, I'll be very happy.

KARL: He had this independence and obviously he was willing to stand up against his own party's leadership.

CURTIS: Yep.

KARL: Is that something you see yourself doing?

CURTIS: You know, it's very important to me that President Trump is successful. I want to see him wildly successful, and I'll be supportive of him when he's talking about inflation and the economy and everything like that.

But that doesn't mean there won't be moments when I disagree with him. And I think it's very important to me and my constituents that -- that at those moments that I feel comfortable speaking up.

KARL: So you -- I know you don't like labels, but you hear MAGA Republican.

CURTIS: Yeah. Yeah.

KARL: Romney Republican. McCain Republican. I mean, where do you fit?

CURTIS: So the best description for me is -- is normal.

KARL: Normal. OK.

CURTIS: I like that label, yeah. And the problem is with labels is it's kind of a shortcut to stereotype somebody, right? We like to just have this very quick, oh you fit into this, and therefore I don't have to know anything more about you because you are moderate, right?

And the reality of it is it's not that simple. A moderate in Salt Lake City is different than a moderate in Saint George or a moderate in Massachusetts.

So to try to say somebody is a moderate or something just doesn't fit. And I really like to align myself with core Utah values. And the best way to describe those are our pioneer values.

KARL: Now, you ran for the Senate and Trump endorsed one of your opponents.

CURTIS: That's correct.

KARL: Actually did a campaign -- I mean, really -- really got into it for one of your opponents and you still won.

CURTIS: So I'll just brag for a minute. I won in a four way primary with almost 50 percent.

KARL: Yeah.

CURTIS: As a non-Trump-endorsed candidate.

KARL: And I think was it a double-digit lead over the, the --

CURTIS: It was a substantial lead.

KARL: Substantial lead over -- over the person Trump -- how did you do that? I mean, you're -- you know, he's the king of the Republican Party. His endorsement matters more than any other endorsement in a Republican primary. What was the key there?

CURTIS: I believe I was able to be the authentic John Curtis, and that people are longing for authenticity. And as I mentioned before, look, I support President Trump when he's dealing with some of these really tough issues that we have, the economy and the conflicts overseas. But I do have my own mind, and I'm not a rubber stamp. My stamp is the stamp of the state of Utah. And I represent those people. And I think people responded to that in, in the election and they're dying for authenticity. And just tell us who you really are and then be that person. And I think that's why we did so well.

KARL: You do hear some of your colleagues, your future colleagues in the Senate that say, ‘He won. He's got a mandate, he deserves, you know, everybody that he's chosen.’

CURTIS: Yeah.

KARL: So in other words, rubber stamp.

CURTIS: Yeah, I heard that from my son, by the way, at Thanksgiving. Yeah.

KARL: He said that?

CURTIS: He did. He said, ‘Dad, I'm a self-described, I took the red pill.’ Yeah. So he kind of set that up. And my response to him was a couple of things. One, in kind of a joking way, I said, ‘You know, I did get more votes than him in Utah. Does that give me a mandate?’ And -- but let me come back to this kind of this concept that I think me speaking my mind and, and me being up front makes the president a better president. And right now, I'm interviewing these nominees – nominees. And I think people forget the advice part of advice and consent. I can't advise the president if I haven't thoroughly talked to these people, if I haven't investigated everything about them, if I haven't learned their strengths and their weaknesses. And I think I owe that to the president. And I think if the better job I do, the better president he will be.

KARL: So you've made it clear in things you have said that you're going to be -- look very closely at all these nominees.

CURTIS: Yes.

KARL: It certainly seems possible you would vote against some. Maybe you’ll end up voting for all of them. I don't know. I mean, you tell me --

CURTIS: Yeah, so I think it's important that I go in with this blank – blank sheet. And by the way, I met with some of the more controversial ones. And --

KARL: You've met with Pete Hegseth. You’ve met with Kash Patel.

CURTIS: Yeah. And in both cases, when Kash came in, I had already read his book. I had talked to 3 or 4 people he had worked with. And when Pete came in, I said, Pete, look, tell me which book you want me to read, and I will read it, of your books. Tell me who you want me to talk to, so – so I get to find out who the real Pete is. Because I know as a politician everything that's in the paper, I shouldn't take it firsthand. And I want to learn myself who he is and what kind of job he will do.

KARL: So let's take this to you for a minute, because you said, you did, these were serious issues that have been raised about Pete Hegseth, I believe, is what you said. Did he resolve those issues with you, are you still --

CURTIS: No, and by the way, there was no way that we're going to resolve those in a 30-minute conversation.

KARL: Did you get into it all? Did you ask him about the -

CURTIS: We did, but only so slightly, because in my mind, I'm looking at this process. He still has to go for a hearing. He still has to have an FBI check. It's a little premature for me, right? To try to resolve all these things in 30 minutes. So I asked him what he was going to do in his first hundred days, what he was going to do in his first 500 days. And we did get into those issues. But for me, they remain unresolved. And I shouldn't try to resolve them until I have this big broad canvas of information about him.

KARL: But I've also seen, you've taken heat, especially online, social media, from supporters of the president saying, ‘What's wrong with you? Just get in line already.

CURTIS: Listen.

KARL: ‘Why are you asking questions? Why are you saying you have concerns?’

CURTIS: Anybody who wants to give me heat for doing my job, bring it on. This is my job. It's my constitutional responsibility. These same people are the same people who would have said earlier, ‘You need to take power back from the executive branch. You need to do your job.’ I have heard that from these very same people, and that's what I'm doing.

KARL: And Kash Patel, I mean, what do you make of the talk of retribution? Revenge?

CURTIS: So those were very specific conversations I had with him. For me, one of the most important things that I needed to hear from Kash is that he would be blind to political affiliation, because I know some of the things that he said and that have been attributed to him.

KARL: You read his book.

CURTIS: Yeah. And it was important to me that he goes after bad guys.

KARL: Yeah.

CURTIS: And I don't care if they’re Republicans or Democrats and we had some very specific conversations about that. And I wanted to make sure that, that he would be blind to that.

KARL: And President Trump himself has talked about going after Liz Cheney, suggesting very recently that she could face criminal charges. Does that stuff concern you?

CURTIS: You know, he said the same things about Hillary Clinton a number of years ago.

KARL: Lock her up, I recall.

CURTIS: Lock her up. And so, I wouldn't say I'm not concerned, but I'm also watching.

KARL: Part of this whole confrontation that we see happening across the way, you're still a House member, is over the debt ceiling. Trump wants the debt ceiling to be raised in perpetuity.

CURTIS: Yeah. I —

KARL: And he's saying if it doesn't happen, you know, shut the government down. I mean, he told me this directly.

CURTIS: So a lot of people ask me when I say I'm sometimes going to have my differences with the president, what -- give me a good example. And I'll just tell you from my previous service with him at the same time, it's spending. Utah is one of the most thrifty places on the planet.

KARL: So you wouldn't favor this idea of doing away with the debt ceiling and --

CURTIS: No, and not only that, we have to do far more to rein in our spending. And that is a big deal in Utah. That's what my constituents expect me to do. And I would say one of the biggest reasons they sent me here.

KARL: And you don't think Trump is particularly serious about reining in spending?

CURTIS: We'll see. I mean, this whole Elon Musk and Vivek thing, let's see. Let's see if he actually finds cuts. Listen, I was the mayor of my city, and I had to have a balanced budget, and I made cuts. And we did it successfully. We actually improved morale by making cuts. And if you can -- there are good ways and bad ways to make these cuts.

KARL: And when you talk to President Trump, because you will --

CURTIS: Yes.

KARL: What are you going to tell him?

CURTIS: I want him to be wildly successful. I'm going to be wind at his back on things like inflation. I want him to bring peace around the world. I want to deal with the border situation, and I'm really there for him. I want to be helpful.

And, Mr. President, from time to time, I'm going to disagree with you. And it will be respectful. And I think when I disagree with you, it will be helpful. And I hope you'll listen to me.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: Our thanks to Senator-elect Curtis.

Coming up, we'll talk to the Senate Democrat who calls Donald Trump a, quote, "singular political talent" and who says his party shouldn't be rooting against him.

And up next, the roundtable on what the shutdown means for speaker of the House Mike Johnson and for the Trump agenda.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MITCH MCCONNELL (R-KY): I don't care if you count how many times I've reminded our colleagues and our House counterparts how harmful it is to shut the government down, and how foolish it is to bet your own side won't take the blame for it. When you try to use normal government function as a bargaining chip, you pay a political price.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: And that was Senator Mitch McConnell on Friday in his farewell address as the Senate Republican leader.

Let's bring in the roundtable. Former DNC chair Donna Brazile, NPR White House correspondent, Asma Khalid, "National Review" editor Ramesh Ponnuru, and "Politico" senior political columnist, Jonathan Martin.

So, J. Martin.

JONATHAN MARTIN, POLITICO SENIOR POLITICAL COLUMNIST: Yes, Jon.

KARL: President-elect. He's still President-elect Trump for at least a while.

MARTIN: Technically. Technically.

KARL: For a while, he looked like he was kind of like the president already.

MARTIN: Or even speaker of the House.

KARL: Yes.

MARTIN: I mean the de facto leader of the Congress. It's a great preview of the power he'sgoing to wield over the legislative branch -- by the way, the House and the Senate -- and the chaos that he can cause.

What makes it more complicated is his sidekick Elon has his own agenda.

So, now, you have two wrinkles, Trump and the richest man in the world side trying to preside over the Congress, and they're in the, you know, same saddle now. We'll see how long that lasts.

Here's why it matters substantive substantively: Republicans next year are going to have big ambitions and narrow majorities. How are they going to get anything done legislatively with that narrow of a split in the House?

Keep in mind, when they come back for the first four months of the year, it's going to be literally a one-vote majority in the House until they fill those vacant seats. It's going to be very difficult when do the tax cuts get done? Do they get done at all before 2026? It's one of the questions we're talking about next year.

KARL: And, Asma, we saw the Republicans aren't just going to say how high when Trump says jump.

ASMA KHALID, NPR WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: No, not all of them did, though I will say I think the power that we saw with Elon Musk being able to what? In 100-plus tweets --

KARL: I think it was over 150 posts on X, yes.

KHALID: He was in an unelected position, the richest man in the world. I don't think this is something we should overlook because as much as we want to talk about close allies to Donald Trump in the past, we have not seen somebody like this, right? Who not only has money, which is incredibly useful and powerful.

KARL: A lot of money apparently.

KHALID: But he also has ownership over a huge social media site, and that is an unprecedented combination we've seen, but to your point, yes. I mean, ultimately that bill was torpedo torpedoed, but we saw 38 Republicans in the house did not line up fully with Trump in terms of wanting to indefinitely lift the debt ceiling.

I think, you know, to J-Mart's point, this is going to have to be fought over in March. Trump's tax cuts, a portion of them expire at the end of 2025, and you've got competing ambitions. You've got the new department of government efficiency, or not really department, it’s like a quasi-non-governmental role, right?

KARL: Department, yeah.

KHALID: They want to limit government spending, and a lot of folks want to keep those tax cuts around.

KARL: I’ll tell you, Donna, my biggest takeaway from watching this week is that first of all, Trump does fear default. He's seen what happens when the government flirts with default. He doesn't want to see the economy tank on his watch. That's why he pushed so hard to get the debt ceiling raised, but you also saw quite clearly that he's not going to be able to do it without Democrats.

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Right.

KARL: So my question to you is, are Democrats going to use that leverage -- we always heard, you're not supposed to, but Obama and Biden always said, you know, it just has to be raised. That's what it is.

BRAZILE: That's true.

KARL: It's not a negotiating tactic.

BRAZILE: That's right.

KARL: Are Democrats going to use that leverage now?

BRAZILE: Absolutely, and why not? First of all, it was Democrats who saved Mike Johnson's speakership back in May. It's Democrats that have helped the House Republicans pass all of these spending bills, and if Speaker Johnson, I think, can muster up the votes to become speaker again and avoid the chaos that would occur.

It's a huge question, but Democrats are the firefighters putting out the fires that the Republicans, you know, clearly set all the time. Look, I think Donald Trump loves to win, and he lost this week.

He saw what coming in at the last minute did to the House Republican caucus, and if he continues to play it that way, he's going to lose even more when it's time. Not to do a continuing resolution, but when it's time to do a budget reconciliation which you have to put a lot in that package and I don't think Donald Trump understands that he's going to need Democratic support, but he's also going to need a unified caucus as well.

KARL: Ramesh?

RAMESH PONNURU, NATIONAL REVIEW EDITOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Even in 2017, 13 House Republicans voted against the tax cut that had the entire leadership of the Republican Party buying in. You lose 13 House Republicans this time --

KARL: You're done.

PONNURU: -- you don't -- yeah.

KARL: Unless you have Democrats.

PONNURU: Unless you have Democrats, and the current plan the Republicans are talking about is an all-Republican reconciliation bill where they have just party discipline and they all vote to increase the debt ceiling, and that it seems to me, is a pipe dream and it's been illustrated this week, and whether they actually have learned it remains to be seen.

MARTIN: This is important I think because there's a simmering House versus the Senate fight going on. Everybody in Congress knows the battle is never R versus D. The battle is always House versus Senate. Those are the real adversaries in Congress, the House versus Senate.

The House Republicans led by Jason Smith, the Ways and Means Committee chairman which writes the tax bill, is panicked over the possibility of the tax cut slipping into the calendar year '26 because the Senate folks want to get Trump a fast victory. John Thune wants to get Trump a fast victory on the border and on energy and wants to do a bill in the first half of next year, and then get big mo and do the tax after that.

The challenge for this week, guys, is that as Jason Smith has said in the House, it may not be possible to get more than one bill done out of next -- out of next year's very slimmajorities in the Congress. So if you are the Republican Party, do you just gamble and try to do two bills, and risk having taxes slip back to 2026 in a midterm year?

And you mentioned how tough it was in 2017. Imagine that tax debate in 2026. The SALT issue alone, State And Local Taxes, is going to be brutal for them to overcome. So that's going to be one of the most fascinating backstage questions.

PONNURU: And interest rates being higher makes the --

MARTIN: Right.

PONNURU: -- the macro environment more difficult to have that kind of tax cut. You have to worry about whether a projected increase in the debt has some implications for the markets that it didn't have back then.

KARL: What did -- Asma, what about Trump's threat? I mean, he said he was going to primary, going to -- going to support primary challengers.

KHALID: Well, it's clear that enough House Republicans didn't believe the threat or were, or -- or were sort of more concerned also about constituents at home. I mean, that's always --

PONNURU: -- and safety and numbers. When there is 38 of you, it's harder --

MARTIN: It's easier.

PONNURU: -- to target you all.

MARTIN: That's right.

KARL: OK. So -- so he made a threat. It didn't work. He's not going to follow through on it. Let's face it, he needs these guys for lots of more votes. What -- what -- what does that do for his negotiating ability? The art of the deal here?

PONNURU: I think it -- I think it weakens him, but I also think that there's an additional problem here. We've been talking about the margins in Congress and the limited number of Republicans. That wasn't the problem this week, right?

KARL: Yeah.

PONNURU: The problem was the two leader problem. All through the first Trump administration, Republicans in Congress, Republicans in the executive branch had to wonder, where's Trump going to come down on this issue? What's going to set him off? What's going to attract his attention?

Now, they've got to do that for two different people.

KARL: Right.

MARTIN: That's right.

PONNURU: And that's an additional paralyzing agent.

BRAZILE: Look, look, Mr. Musk also threatened Democrats with primaries as well and said, look, I'll -- I'll run some moderates against him. And -- and most of the Democrats --

MARTIN: That's right.

BRAZILE: -- just said, oh, really? Trust me. Trump has --

KARL: He does have some money to throw around.

BRAZILE: You know what? You can -- you can outwork money.

KARL: Yeah.

BRAZILE: You can outwork money if you have a strong message.

KARL: As Donald Trump proved, by the way, in November.

BRAZILE: Absolutely.

(LAUGH)

BRAZILE: That's -- that's true.

KARL: November of 2016 and 2024.

MARTIN: Exactly.

BRAZILE: But -- but the -- the -- the threats alone, I -- I don't think will -- will help Mr. Trump get his agenda through. He's going to have to work with the, his Republican caucus, but he -- I also believe that at some point, he's going to have to sit down and work with a few Democrats as well.

MARTIN: Which has always been a challenge for him, by the way -- picking up the phone, making those calls and asking somebody else for help. It's never been his strength. But boy, you look at the numbers and it's -- he's going to have to next year.

BRAZILE: Tiny majority, he's going to need Democrats.

KARL: And the Elon Musk factor, is he, I mean, what -- what -- what -- how is he playing on the Hill? I mean, he, it was, like you said, it was a hundred -- over a hundred. I think it was over 150 posts just on this one biz.

KHALID: I will say that it was --

MARTIN: So totally misleading to, yeah.

KHALID: I will say that --

KARL: Yeah, by the way. So, a lot of them is --

(CROSSTALK)

KHALID: (inaudible) actually not correct. Look, I will say it is absolutely correct that yes, the -- the whole strategy was not a win for Donald Trump. But what I will say is that the fact that Elon Musk's power of tweeting could torpedo the initial agreed upon spending plan, to me also does show that there is power in his money, power in his ability to navigate that social media site that he owns.

Look, I -- I mean, ultimately it didn't -- the game plan didn't work out for him the way he wanted to, but he was ultimately able to torpedo the initial plan and how he uses that site going forward, I just don't think we know because we've never seen somebody who has money and access to information the way that he has.

MARTIN: But, Trump has never been a spending horse, right?

(CROSSTALK)

PONNURU: (Inaudible) cannot be enjoying being eclipsed in a way by Elon Musk. The Democrats clearly are trying to drive a wedge between them --

MARTIN: Right, yeah.

KARL: Yeah.

PONNURU: -- by embarrassing him over it.

KARL: Yeah.

PONNURU: And he seems likely to be susceptible to that kind of maneuver.

KARL: Although I have to say, so far the alliance seems to be holding. I mean, it seems to be.

MARTIN: But Jon, nobody knows better than you, that Trump shows a one man act.

KARL: Yes. Yes, it is. It is for sure.

(LAUGH)

KARL: All right, coming up, a Democrat calls Donald Trump a "Singular political talent" and says he hopes he is a successful president. My conversation with Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman is up next, I'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: President-elect Trump's cabinet picks have been making their rounds on Capitol Hill ahead of their confirmation hearings. And there's been one Democrat who has made time to meet with just about all of them. Senator John Fetterman explains why when we come back.

And, of course, the roundtable is here as well.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. JOHN FETTERMAN (D-PA): I’ll never forget, it was June in 2016, and I was a -- I was a -- I was a surrogate for Clinton, and Trump announced, hey, I’m showing up in a town called Monessen, which is a small steel town in the valley down from ours, and I’m, like, why the -- why is he showing up there? That's not -- so either he's crazy or they've plugged into something.

They figured out that they have to connect and to make that kind of an argument to go to these kind of places, and it did. It resonated.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Pennsylvania Senator John Fetterman on the Joe Rogan podcast shortly before the 2024 election, discussing why he thought Donald Trump was able to win his state in 2016. In two years in the Senate, Fetterman has shown an independent streak and more recently he's been more willing to meet in-person with Trump's top cabinet picks, including embattled defense secretary nominee Pete Hegseth and as we are first to report here this morning, he's also met with FBI pick Kash Patel.

I met up with Senator Fetterman to discuss how he views his role as Donald Trump returns to Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: So are you going to be Donald Trump's favorite Democrat in the Senate?

FETTERMAN: I don't know what that really means, because you'll never, you never know, but, but I am is, I'm just, I'm just a regular Democrat, I'm not leaving my party, but I'm not sure why some of the things that I've chosen to do, like meeting with nominees and having views that might be more aligned with some of the Republican side, I think that's part of politics that's pretty much consisting with just doing the job and representing the kind of state that we have in Pennsylvania.

KARL: What, looking forward, what do you -- what are you most optimistic about with a Trump presidency, and what do you fear?

FETTERMAN: Well, it's like I've been warning people like, you got to chill out, you know, like the constant, you know, freak out. It's not helpful. So, you know, pack a lunch, pace yourself, because he hasn't even taken office yet.

KARL: Do you think he has the potential to be successful and a good president?

FETTERMAN: I hope, I hope, because I'm not rooting against him. If you're rooting against the president, you are rooting against the nation. And, and I'm not ever going to be where I want a president to fail.

So, country first. I know that's -- it's become maybe like a cliche, but, but it happens to be truth.

KARL: What was the single biggest factor behind Kamala Harris and the Democrats losing in November?

FETTERMAN: You have a singular political talent. It's un-undeniable.

KARL: Trump.

FETTERMAN: You know, he had the energy and almost a sense of fearlessness to just say all those kinds of things. And people, it’s, it's undeniable that it has an entertaining aspect for that too, and just if you're not afraid to say all of those things, or, and after you survived an assassination, you literally were shot in your head and had the presence of mind to respond, you know, “fight, fight, fight.”

I mean, that's a political talent, it’s undeniable. And also, I never believed that it was about fascism. And for me, that made it difficult --

KARL: Kamala Harris said that he was a fascist.

FETTERMAN: Yeah. Well, it's like, that's her prerogative, I mean, but, but it's not a word that I would use. Because you put a lot of Democrats, especially in my state, that I know, and I happen to love people that are going to vote for Trump, and they are not fascists.

And also fascism, that's not a word that regular people, you know, use, you know? I think people are going to decide who is the candidate that's going to protect and project, you know, my version of the American way of life, and that's what happened.

KARL: I talked to a lot of Democrats before the election who were saying, we're going to win. Harris is going to win in Pennsylvania.

But you -- you saw this coming?

FETTERMAN: If you live in Pennsylvania and you spend time in Red County Pennsylvania, as much as I did, the support is astonishing. I mean, I was driving home from Indiana County at nine o'clock, and there was a Trump superstore on the side of a road, nine o'clock on Friday night, and people are buying swag. And then really, that really crystallized in, at the assassination, and that was in Butler County, Western Pennsylvania, fairly close to where I live.

And the day or two later, you start seeing people wearing shirts with that iconic picture. And, you know, the energy and the anger and, it’s like, wow, I really thought -- in fact, I thought that might be ball game. And then the second thing, really, and that's when Musk and I, we're in the business, surrogacy is part of it, and sometimes it really has much of an impact. But I knew that was going to be a special one, and --

KARL: The endorsement by Elon Musk?

FETTERMAN: Yeah, well, an endorsement and an active one, and I'm not even talking about it as a checkbook.

KARL: Yeah.

FETTERMAN: He -- it's rare to have a surrogate that has a lot of fanboys and is very compelling to a lot of the demographic that we are losing in, in my party and in Pennsylvania.

KARL: Do you think he would have won without Elon Musk?

FETTERMAN: Well, I -- I -- I'm not sure if we would have lost Bob Casey, but I do think Trump, it would have been closer. I really believe that it mattered. We lost Bob Casey for 15,000 votes. And yeah, I'm sure he did move the needle. That's undeniable.

KARL: How would you -- how would you grade the Trump transition?

FETTERMAN: Well, I mean, it's not really a grade, but I'm saying this as a Democrat, you know, it's like, I clearly -- I, you know, after he announced Gaetz, and I'm like, that's just, I described that. That's God-tier trolling. I mean, that was never serious. And anyone here in Congress knows that he's despised by Republicans too. So that also set the stage and here's what's coming and, and now I have met with all of them so far, and the ones that we haven't --

KARL: His nominees?

FETTERMAN: They're on the schedule back in January.

KARL: You met with Pete Hegseth?

FETTERMAN: I -- I -- I did, yeah.

KARL: You think he's qualified to be defense secretary?

FETTERMAN: Well, I think we're going to learn more. We're going to learn more. And that -- that -- that hearing, and there's going to be an FBI background and that. But you know, my commitment, and I think I'm doing the job, is I'm going to sit down and have a conversation. And the president picked these people. Not going to be my first choice, second choice, third choice, but that's democracy.

And to me, it would be distressing if -- if he is confirmed, if the Democrats are going to turn our back collectively to the leader of the defense. I mean, that's astonishing, and that's dangerous.

KARL: So you see yourself inclined to be open to supporting these controversial nominees. You may not support them all, but you see yourself --

FETTERMAN: Potentially.

KARL: Yeah.

FETTERMAN: But there is going to be some that I will vote yes, and there's some maybe that I'll vote no. But nobody can accuse me of just saying I had a closed mind, or I just said no because Trump picked this person, or whatever.

KARL: I saw you, Elise Stefanik, you have said you're going to vote for her. I saw you with her, thumbs up.

FETTERMAN: Yeah, well, and Rubio. And for me, it's like, you know, Rubio, for me, it's like, he's in the other party, obviously. But you know, there's a lot of, you know, the -- the Venn is closer. There's a lot -- there's a lot of overlap.

KARL: Yeah.

FETTERMAN: And now if, if I was, as a Democrat, looking to assemble a bipartisan cabinet, he'd be a solid choice from a Democrat.

KARL: You met with Kash Patel, I believe, right?

FETTERMAN: Yesterday, well, yes.

KARL: He's talked about going after Trump's enemies.

FETTERMAN: Yeah, and I've -- and we -- we've had conversations, but we -- we had, you know, all of, all of these -- all of these interviews were all off the record and -- and those things. So I'm not going to go into detail, but -- but he absolutely, I -- is that, that's -- you know, that's never going to happen, you know, like he was -- he was very looking forward to that.

KARL: He's not going to use the FBI to go after Trump's enemies?

FETTERMAN: Yeah -- no, that's not it.

KARL: Did you believe him?

FETTERMAN: Or something is for taken (ph).

KARL: I mean he's written a lot.

FETTERMAN: Yeah. That's what he claims.

KARL: Yeah.

FETTERMAN: And I found out, you know, his family's origin story and immigration.

KARL: Yeah.

FETTERMAN: And we talked about that, and my wife, my family immigration and things. And so I -- I learned things about him. I never knew that he was a public defender.

KARL: So did you come across liking Kash Patel more than you thought you would? Thinking you could support him?

FETTERMAN: It's -- it's -- I mean, how much you can absorb in 30 minutes.

KARL: Yeah.

FETTERMAN: But -- but, I have learned things and I have heard things, and I have no regrets for having these. I never left any of those interviews saying, well, that was a waste of time, or I regret that.

KARL: Have you talked to Trump since the election?

FETTERMAN: I have not. I have not. No.

KARL: So, I assume he's going to call you at some point. What is your message to him after he sees this?

FETTERMAN: What would I say to him? I'd be like, well, hey, well, congratulations, and havean honest conversation of things I would like to -- we could work together, and some things we're going to disagree. I'd like to avoid the, you know, the cheap heat and some of the other stuff, but it's going to be a kooky ride, I'm sure. And you know, I try to be a committed, steady voice for Pennsylvania and to remember that we have to find as many wins in the middle of incredibly divisive times.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL: All right. Our thanks to Senator Fetterman.

Coming up, some candid comments from the architects of Trump's victory on what Democrat they feared most when Biden dropped out, and who they believe is Trump's heir apparent in 2028. We'll discuss that with the roundtable when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: The roundtable is back. J. Mart, I've got to get to your very interesting interview you just published with the architects of Trump's victory, LaCivita, Fabrizio. They told you that they were testing possible replacements even before Biden dropped out and it was one Democrat they feared more than anyone.

MARTIN: One the Dems couldn't have, Michelle Obama. She tested the strongest in the internal Trump polling when they were trying to figure out who the Dems would swap in Biden for, and that was the one that by far had the most name I.D. Obviously it was never going to happen, but it does show the potency these many years later for the Obama brand, especially the Michelle Obama brand.

KARL: Which is actually more powerful than the Barack Obama brand?

BRAZILE: Well, no. Michelle Obama is in a category by herself. Her new book "Overcoming," a self-help book. She played an enormous role as you well know as a surrogate for Kamala Harris and, as we all know, Michelle Obama is just a beautiful woman.

KARL: But, Asma, you talked to the -- you were at the same meeting which included both the Harris team and the Trump team.

KHALID: Yes, in California. Yes.

KARL: And the bottom line is the Trump team was getting ready for Biden to drop out weeks before he actually did.

KHALID: That's right.

KARL: Even before the debate.

KHALID: Even before the debate. They said they started looking at analysis for this in May. But I also think was striking is, you know, we all watched that debate. And so, one of the questions we asked them is, when they knew things were going south for Biden --

KARL: Yeah.

KHALID: -- that Debate, they said within the first five minutes, they knew it was over.

KARL: I think some thought in the first 30 seconds as he walked on to the stage.

(CROSSTALK)

(LAUGH)

KHALID: And so, they started immediately, they said that they were prepared, they had alternative versions of speeches set up for the Republican convention.

KARL: Yeah.

KHALID: -- in case a swap was made ahead of time, which I just think is interesting because, to those of us who covered the news event, no doubt it was shocking when it happened.

KARL: Yeah.

KHALID: We were all sort of playing catch up. Some of us may have had pre-writes done, but they were certainly prepared.

(LAUGH)

PONNURU: If -- when you talked to campaign professionals after a campaign, the losing campaign always emphasize structural elements. There's no way we could have won given --

KARL: Right, right.

PONNURU: -- X, Y, and Z.

KARL: Right. They didn't sound like (ph) that during the campaign.

(LAUGH)

PONNURU: And the winning campaign always talks about all the brilliant decisions that they made. But I do think that the Trump campaign can legitimately claim they were on the air with much more message discipline than we saw from the Democratic campaign. They had 'Harris is a dangerous liberal. We are focused on the economy.' And the Harris campaign had a lot of different messages.

KARL: I mean, I heard one theory, Donna, that one problem was Harris had too much money, so there was less of a need for discipline with the -- with -- with the -- what they were putting out in their advertising. They had hundreds of -- hundred different messages in the closing weeks.

MARTIN: Yeah.

BRAZILE: And -- and -- and there are -- and there are also an indication that 107 days is not enough time for people to get to know you and for the American people to coalesce around a new voice, when they were expecting Joe Biden.

Look, I -- the one big takeaway that I got from reading that long, lengthy peace statement (ph) --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: The editors aren't as tough over at Politico as they were at that time (ph).

(CROSSTALK)

BRAZILE: Yeah.

(CROSSTALK)

MARTIN: (Inaudible) Politico today.

(LAUGH)

BRAZILE: It's not just their message discipline, but the fact that they had the can -- the candidate was really prepared to win this election.

KARL: Hey, and we're almost out of time, but what -- who did they tell you is the heir apparent?

MARTIN: Well, both LaCivita and Fabrizio, the two sort of (inaudible) at the campaign, both believe J.D. Vance is going to be the heir apparent. But we were talking about earlier today in the context of Elon Musk, let's see how that relationship looks four years from now as opposed to it does today. Give Vance --

KARL: To be clear, it can't be Elon Musk because he wasn't born in the United States.

MARTIN: Yeah. But give Vance credit though.

KARL: Yes.

MARTIN: Because he has cultivated Trump in his family now for two years and it's worked. It's gotten him to this point.

KARL: All right.

BRAZILE: That's a generational (ph) pick.

KARL: We're going to -- we're going to stop right there. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. And be sure to tune in Thursday night on ABC for the primetime special, "The Year" with Robin Roberts, highlighting the most memorable moments from 2024. Have a Merry Christmas and a Happy Hanukkah to all who celebrate.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)