Transcript: Dr. Jonathan Stern on Marital Strife

April 26, 2002 -- Conventional wisdom says couples in unhappy marriages should stay together for the kids. But are children really better off in a domestic war zone?

Primetime Thursday took a candid look at two couples on the brink of divorce — and children caught in the middle. More than 300 hours of videotape captured over 10 weeks revealed marriages filled with tension and mistrust.

Dr. Jonathan Stern, a New York-based clinical psychologist who analyzed the video footage for Primetime, said marital conflict can take a tremendous toll on children. Dr. Stern discussed marital strife and its effects on children in a live online chat with our viewers. A transcript follows.

Also, read the Primetime report and share your thoughts with other viewers on our message board.

ModeratorWelcome to our live chat with clinical psychologist Jonathan Stern. You may have seen Dr. Stern last night on Primetime Thursday, in which he analyzed videotapes showing the conflicts in two marriages. He joins us now from his consulting practice in Litchfield, Conn.

Tara asks:Watching Primetime tonight was like watching a video tape of our own lives. While our fights are not as severe, I feel that we are heading that way. My question is what can we do now to stop this pattern of destruction, eliminate the hurt and resentment, and get on with our lives together? Is there a checklist or set of rules we can follow when discussing and dealing with our problems?

Dr. Jonathan SternFirst, institute the "no-blame rule." Neither you nor your partner are allowed to point the finger at each other when you have a disagreement. Instead, begin all comments with "when such-and-such happens, I feel..."

Second, notice when your feelings are out of proportion to the situation. Pull back from the situation, give yourself a "time out," and find ways to calm those feelings down before entering into the interaction.

Kim asks:What do you do when your spouse doesnt believe in counseling and you know you need to go to marriage counseling or things will just not work?

Dr. Jonathan SternFirst, decide whether your partner's not going to counseling is a "deal breaker" for your marriage. Ask yourself whether you are willing to say to your partner that if he doesn't participate in counseling, you're going to end the marriage.

If it's not a deal breaker for you, then I suggest that you go to individual therapy. You can still work on some of the same issues, but unfortunately not as effectively as with couples therapy. However, the therapist might help you to strategize how to get your partner to participate once the therapist understands his dynamics and your collective dynamics.

Charlie asks: In reference to your response to Kim. Couldn't her having a counselor help her get her spouse to go to counseling be seen by him as controling if he finds out?

Dr. Jonathan SternShe should be very up front with her husband that she's going to counseling individually and that she would prefer to go with him. But because he's refusing to go, she has no other alternative. Is that slightly manipulative? I suppose so. But if the marriage is at stake, she needs to let her husband know how important this is to her.

Jo asks: What should a wife do when her husband always flees and buries himself in TV or computer video games instead of trying to resolve a conflict? Especially when the conflict is over the computer video games?

Dr. Jonathan SternThe wife needs to ask herself a few questions. First, what has she tried in the past that has been unsuccesful, and why has it been unsuccessful? She's got to realize that she can't repeat the unsuccessful solution over and over.

Second, she should ask herself: What is she doing to contribute to his running away from her? In last night's show, for example, Shannon kept nagging Les, which just pushed him away more and more, and never got her the result that she wanted.

Third, she should ask herself: What can she do to make her husband want to engage in a conversation with her? Les told me that if Shannon would cool off and give him a little time by himself, he'd be more willing to return to the conversation. And if she could then speak calmly to him, without getting too emotional, he would be able to problem solve with her. So they agreed to try this out.

Jann asks:I would like to ask Dr. Stern how I can break the cycle of "counting points" with me feeling like I do more for him and he feels he's doing more for me. Is a relationship suppose to be fair?

Dr. Jonathan SternI think that you're both counting points in order to feel sorry for yourselves and unappreciated by your partner. You're caught in a competition for who can feel the most sorry for themselves (and resentful toward the other).

You each need to ask yourself: Why is it important to you to feel so sorry for yourself, and where does that come from in your background? A relationship should be about compromise and sharing, but not about self-pity and resentment.

Ang asks: Is it better for fighting couples to part or stay together if there are children involved? Also, is there any other effects on the children that experience everyday yelling by their parents. Clearly, I don't agree this type of behavior should continue, for the sake of the children. Just wanted some more advice. Thank you.

Dr. Jonathan SternIt depends on the nature of the fighting. Fighting can actually be helpful to children if the parents are able to express what they want in a non-blaming, calm fashion and ultimately resolve conflicts in front of their children. This teaches the children many valuable skills.

However, if the fighting is emotionally charged, full of blame and disrespect, and no productive negotiation or conflict resolution occurs, then you're teaching your children how to be emotionally out of control, disrespectful, and unproductive problem solvers.

Melanie asks: How do you just stop? Because it is bad to fight in front of the children. What skills are essential to make it stop, besides separation? And what do you do if you won't argue but your spouse does?

Dr. Jonathan SternYou and your partner should learn to identify the triggers to conflict. Either internal triggers (such as a particularly powerful negative feeling you're having) or external triggers (such as a situation that always leads to conflict).

When you've gotten good at knowing these triggers, then you and your partner have to agree on a plan that might involve each going your separate ways for a little while, doing whatever it takes to calm yourselves down (e.g. deep breathing, saying calming things to yourself) and then agree on a time and place away from the kids when you can sit down and resolve the conflict.

If you're in the middle of a conflict, then you and your partner should have already agreed on a signal that you can give to each other that will indicate that you're out of control in front of your kids, and that you've got to stop the argument. You've got to both wholeheartedly agree to give that single more importance than your own feelings at that moment.

If all else fails, make yourselves feel really guilty that at that moment that you're messing up your kids.

Laura asks: I grew up in a home with a lot of fighting and now I think that I emotionally depend on the drama and fighting. Can this be true? And how do I change my marriage now so my son won't have the same side effects that I have?

Dr. Jonathan SternGood question and a great observation. I totally agree with you that you're prone to recreating the same emotional climate that you grew up with. I suggest that you learn ways to calm down your anger and therapy might help you to do this.

Basically, if you learn how to manage your own anger, then you will break this cycle and not pass your anger on to your son. Otherwise, he's at great risk for becoming either rageful of the victim of others' rage. Everybody calms down their feelings differently, so therapy can help you to tailor-make some stratgies that will be effective for you to calm to anger.

I think that we all are "addicted" to whatever feelings were predominant in the families that we grew up in. I also believe that as adults we unconsciously seek to recreate those same feelings, even if consciously we want to feel the opposite.

Tina asks: What is the effect on other siblings when a teenager daughter and her father continually fight?

Dr. Jonathan SternPotentially, it's the same as two parents fighting. It also can have one of two consequences for the younger kids. Either they'll model themselves after the teenager and, when older, engage in similar conflicts. Or, wanting to avoid the teenager's conflicts, they'll learn to do the opposite and become potentially conflict-avoidant. Neither of these outcomes will be particularly healthy for them.

Martha asks: What should you do when your husband tells you he only wants to be there for the kids? That he fell out of love for you, but yet is not willing to help to save the marriage of 12 years?

Dr. Jonathan SternThat's a tough one. You need to ask yourself if the quality of the interaction between you and your husband provides your children with many more positives than negatives for their development. If it does, then you have to ask yourself, is it worth staying in this marriage for the sake of the kids?

If the quality of interaction between you and your husband is, in your opinion, significantly detrimental to the kids (models a lot of conflict, models no affection and a lot of repressed anger and tension), then for their sake, you might want to consider ending the marriage.

Dawn asks: As a grown up child of parents that fought all the time, PLEASE parents don't stay together for the sake of the kids. The kids see that you are unhappy and they will always remember the fighting. I suffer depression and anxiety. My doctor compares it Post Traumatic Syndrome due to always being on RED alert waiting for the next fight to break out.

Dr. Jonathan SternI wholeheartedly agree, especially if you've tried to change this harmful pattern and nothing seems to work.

ModeratorWe have time for one last question.

Winky asks: Aren't our expectations for marriage unrealistic? It seems we expect perfect concord and harmony in an institution that isn't structured to allow that.

Dr. Jonathan SternI absolutely agree. People have unrealistic expectations in a few ways. First, when young, they have a lot of romantic ideals about love and marriage, and these ideals have nothing to do with the day-to-day business of getting along with somebody and raising a family. Compatibility and love are not the same things. And compatibility is what makes a marriage work.

Second, people need to ask themselves before getting married: How do I feel about sacrifice and about compromise? I don't believe that enough people think about this before they enter into a marriage.

ModeratorThat concludes our live chat with Dr. Jonathan Stern. Thanks to all of you who joined us today and thanks especially to Dr. Stern for his thoughtful replies.