'This Week' Transcript: Tim Pawlenty and Mitch Daniels

WASHINGTON, May 29, 2011— -- (BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): This week, the race is on.

PAWLENTY: I'm Tim Pawlenty, and I'm running for president of theUnited States.

AMANPOUR: Lots of candidates, but no clear front-runner. I askedformer Minnesota Governor Tim Pawlenty how he'll break out of the pack.

PAWLENTY: If somebody elbows me, they'll probably get an elbow back.

AMANPOUR: And Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels says he has otherpriorities.

(on-screen): How difficult was it for you to say that you lovedyour family more than your country?

(voice-over): And as the Republican field grow, our roundtablesizes up the contenders.

Then, facing the future. The class of 2011 is ready to work, butwhere are the jobs? Graduates ask top CEOs how they can get an edge inthis troubled economy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: Live from the Newseum in Washington, "This Week" withChristiane Amanpour starts right now.

AMANPOUR: Welcome to the program, and lots in store for you today.But first, some late news since your morning papers.

President Obama heads to Joplin, Missouri, today to tour the site ofthat deadly tornado. The president will meet with local residents andspeak at a memorial service for the victims. A hundred and thirty-ninepeople were killed in the twister that struck a week ago today.

In Afghanistan, officials say a NATO air strike targeting insurgentsinstead killed 14 civilians, all women and children. Afghan leaders saythe bombing was in retaliation for an attack on an American base onSaturday, and a NATO delegation is heading to the scene to investigate.

And Sarah Palin's campaign-style "One Nation" bus tour kicks offtoday right here in Washington, D.C. And it's touching off a freshround of presidential speculation, but will she really run? Here'sABC's David Kerley.

KERLEY: Good morning, Christiane. It is a bit of a politicalmystery and this bus tour, as well. Here's what we know. Sarah Palinsays she will start this bus tour of the northeast here in Washingtontoday.

Here's what we don't know. Where is the bus? Is she speaking?Where does she go next? Is this all a publicity stunt or is this reallya launch of a presidential campaign?

The plan, according to her political action committee, is to visithistorical sites. We're hearing Gettysburg, the Liberty Bell. She'llalso go to an early primary site, New Hampshire. This is unfriendlyterritory for her, so she may be testing the waters a little bit there.And, you know, she kind of announced all this with a very slick videoshowing the bus being dressed up in a grizzly bear at the beginning.Not sure if it was a mama grizzly or not.

Aides promised a schedule for today, this weekend, and we haven'tseen anything yet. So is this Palin in perfect surprise mode for themedia or a seat-of-the-pants plan? We don't really know. She's reallynot played by establishment rules and has had some success. She isasking for donations, Christiane, on this bus tour, which apparentlystarts somewhere in Washington sometime today.

AMANPOUR: David, thanks so much.

And so while Sarah Palin keeps us guessing, other candidates aregetting serious. Former Massachusetts Governor Mitt Romney officiallylaunches his campaign on Thursday in New Hampshire. Former PennsylvaniaSenator Rick Santorum does the same on June 6th in his home state. AndCongresswoman Michele Bachmann tells supporters that she'll make, quote,"an all-important announcement" next month in her birthplace ofWaterloo, Iowa.

But one candidate took the plunge this week. Former MinnesotaGovernor Tim Pawlenty made it official in Des Moines on Monday. Hisannouncement tour then wound through Florida and ended up in New York,where I caught up with him.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: What seriously do you need to do to raise your profile?Or will the system just take care of it by force of running?

PAWLENTY: Well, even now, only about 50 percent of the Republicansnationally even know my name. So we have to get the name ID up and thenconvert that, of course, to support. But if you're a serious candidatefor president, that will happen naturally over time. But I like thefact that most of the other candidates are really well known and yetthey don't really have a strong front-running position, and that givesus time and space to be able to advance our campaign.

ANDERSON: So, ladies and gentlemen, my husband, Governor TimPawlenty.

AMANPOUR: Well, let's get right to the heart of the matter.Medicare, you have said that if the Paul Ryan plan came across your deskas president, you would sign it.

PAWLENTY: Well, let me start by saying my campaign is based aroundthe notion that it's time for the truth and it's time for leaders tostep forward and tell America and the American people the truth.

As to Medicare, everybody knows it's sinking. It's going broke.The current program, Christiane, only has about 50 percent of it paidfor by either premiums or payroll taxes, and the rest is deficitspending and debit spending or debt spending. So we have to fix it.

And President Obama has an obligation as the leader of this nationto step forward and solve the problem, and he's basically ducking it andthen pointing fingers at everybody else.

Now, as to Paul Ryan's plan, I'll have my own plan. It'll have somedifferences. For example, he didn't address Social Security. I will,and we already are. As to Medicare, it will have some differences, butif the only choices were doing nothing like President Obama is doing andPaul Ryan's plan, I'd sign it.

AMANPOUR: So what would you do? What would you do -- for instance,you mentioned Social Security. Would you raise the retirement age?

PAWLENTY: For the people who are currently in the program, nochanges. For people who are coming up on eligibility, no changes. Butfor the next generation, the people who are entering the workforce, weneed to gradually raise the retirement age over time.

AMANPOUR: Let's get back to Medicare. What would you dodifferently than what Paul Ryan has done? And what's wrong with thisplan that's freaking people out, apparently?

PAWLENTY: Well, the current system can't continue. But our plan isgoing to have some of these features. One, we're not going to payMedicare providers under my plan just for volumes of services provided.We're going to pay for better results and better health care outcome,and we're going to put hospitals and clinics and providers on aperformance pay system, not just a volume pay system.

And we're going to give people lots of choices. If they want tostay in the current Medicare program or whatever comes next in thatprogram, great, that's their choice, but we're also going to offer thema serious of other choices so they can pick what's best for them andtheir families, and then they'll have the opportunity to be in thedriver's seat.

And we'll also have incentives, financial incentives to make wisechoices as it relates to cost and quality of health care.

AMANPOUR: Do you think in the things that we're facing right now,whether it's Medicare, whether it's the deficit, whether it's the debt,can any of these things be tackled by one party or another? Or does itdemand and require both party action?

PAWLENTY: We hope for everybody to come together and be a team andmove forward in the right direction for the country. But as you know,there are some sharp differences about what the correct solution is here.

So I think any doofus can go to Washington, D.C., and maintain thestatus quo or incrementally change things. But for the country, thehour is late, Christiane, and we have to take significant action soon.This is time for people who are wanting to be leaders in a bold way tocome forward and say, "We really have to change things significantly."

AMANPOUR: Define "doofus."

PAWLENTY: That's a Minnesota term. And doofus would mean somebodywho would be relatively low performing.

AMANPOUR: All right. Let's talk about this huge debate going on inWashington and around the country about the debt ceiling. If you werepresident, would you ask Congress to raise it now?

PAWLENTY: I don't think we should raise the debt ceiling. And ifthe Congress moves in that direction, the president, they better getsomething really good for it. It better be permanent, and it better bestructural, like a balanced budget amendment and like permanent caps andlimits on spending that are specific, not just aspirational.

AMANPOUR: Are you being political right now or do you really,really mean that one should not raise the debt ceiling, given the factthat most economists say that it would -- it would make a cascade ofcatastrophic economic situations?

PAWLENTY: Well, there are some serious voices challenging that verypremise. And the answer is nobody really knows, because we've not beenat this point before.

AMANPOUR: But many people would say we would be at that point atour peril and that it is not like an argument over shutting down thegovernment for a few days. This is a major, major earthquake in theeconomic system.

PAWLENTY: Well, again, there are -- there are people who've writtenthoughtfully -- and these are serious people...

AMANPOUR: So do you not believe that, then?

PAWLENTY: Well, I'd -- what I'd...

AMANPOUR: Is your position that it would not affect the economy ofthe United States or the credibility of the United States or thecreditworthiness of the United States?

PAWLENTY: My position many, many months ago when I wrote an op-edfor one of the major national newspapers was this. President Obama wassetting up this false choice between default and raising the debtceiling. And at least for a while, you can take away that false choiceby ordering the Treasury to pay the obligations to outside creditorsfirst, and there's enough cash flow to do that for quite some time.

AMANPOUR: Do you agree that the military budget has to be really,really tackled very, very severely, in terms of cuts?

PAWLENTY: If you look at where -- I believe strongly that the firstresponsibility of the United States federal government is to protectthis nation and our citizens, so I'm not calling for absolute or realcuts in defense. I think the growth can be slowed down. I thinkefficiencies can be found within defense. But I think those moniesshould be plowed back into defense to support it.

AMANPOUR: Small government is a rallying cry of the RepublicanParty. What is your vision of the size of government? You've said thatit has to be more proactive and more aggressive. How does that squarewith the small government agenda?

PAWLENTY: Well, just because the government has an area ofresponsibility doesn't mean it has to be the provider of the service.If government has an ability and an interest in helping people withcertain things -- and they should, like education -- then give peoplethe money directly. Let them decide what's best for their family in amarketplace.

We shouldn't have a country where the government says, "Unlessyou're rich, you're condemned to go to a crappy school and your futurehinges on whether some stupid lottery ball comes out so you might beable to go to another one." All kids, regardless of background, shouldbe able to go to a school of their choice and realize their dream.

And President Obama, of course, one of the first things he does whenhe comes to Washington, D.C., along with the Democrat Congress wholecture us about how they're for the poor, eliminate the scholarshipprograms in Washington, D.C., one of the most pathetic things I've seenin public policy in my life.

AMANPOUR: I sense passion and anger there. And...

PAWLENTY: Well, I was the only one in my family who was able to goto college. And my brothers and sisters couldn't go, not because theydidn't have the capability. They didn't have the opportunity.

But we can't afford to have a country of just over 300 millionpeople with a third of our people uneducated or undereducated,unskilled, unable to access the economy of today and tomorrow, beingticked off and becoming wards of the state. That's not going to work.

And this system has to change. And the people who are defending thestatus quo are the -- they got the interests of the adults instead ofthe interests of our children and the future of our country. And itdoes make me mad. It does make me mad. And it's hypocrisy.

AMANPOUR: You do emphasize your blue-collar upbringing. Your wifeintroduces you as the salt of the earth. Do you think that gives you anadvantage when you go into a campaign like this?

PAWLENTY: If you walk into a place, you know, like the VFW in myhometown and you walk in there at the fish fry on a Friday night likeMary and I went to a few Friday nights ago, and there are some people inthere, you know, wearing Carhartt jackets and playing pull-tabs tryingto win the meat raffle, they don't look up and say, "Gosh, I really likehis white paper on Sarbanes-Oxley reform. That really gets me going."

They want to know not just what you have up here, they want to know,what do you have here? And if you're going to be president of theUnited States or run for president of the United States, they want toknow, who are you? Where did you come from? How were you raised? Whatdo you believe? Why do you believe it? What's it based on? What wereyour life experience? What shaped you?

And so I'm not saying it's the difference-maker, but when you growup as I did, in a meat-packing town, and your mom dies when you'reyoung, and your dad for much of his life was a truck driver -- he gotpromoted later to dispatcher and terminal manager -- you learn somethings and you see some things.

And in my hometown, when those big meat-packing plants shut down andwe had all kinds of people in town unemployed, worried about theirfuture, this is not some academic exercise. I saw the face of it, realtime, at a real young age.

And so when people hear that, it just gives you a chance to havesome credibility with them so they don't just think you're some pinhead,you know, who, you know, writes nice white papers or can spout off aboutthese issues. You've actually lived it. You've walked in their shoes.And it helps.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, the man many say who could havebeen a real contender, Mitch Daniels.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

ROMNEY: I know a number of you work in small business.

GINGRICH: Most important social...

BACHMANN: ... created just for this purpose.

PAWLENTY: Make our mortgage payments.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: "I love my country. I love my family more." With thosewords, Indiana Governor Mitch Daniels took himself out of the runningthe Republican nomination for president. Many conservatives werecounting on him to lead their party back to the White House.

His strong record as a fiscal conservative, his reputation for beingan innovator, and his call for a truce in the culture wars made him anattractive choice. So this week, I traveled to Indiana to find justwhat makes his political clock tick.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): It's been a tough week for Governor MitchDaniels, and the first thing you notice is the bandage slapped acrossthe middle of his forehead. At the gym, someone had slammed the door onhim.

M. DANIELS: This was the day before I announced I wasn't going torun, and the popular theory is it knocked some sense into me.

AMANPOUR: I came to meet him at Indiana's state capital to talkabout that decision and its implications for the Republican race to theWhite House.

(on-screen): So many people in the party wanted to you run, andthey were disappointed. How difficult was it for you to say that youloved your family more than your country?

M. DANIELS: That was easy to say. It's a true -- it's a truestatement. It was uncomfortable to feel two duties that I am verypassionate about, but in the end, it wasn't really any question whichcame first to me.

AMANPOUR: Why do your wife and your children hate the idea so much?

M. DANIELS: We've got young women, three of them married not toolong. They're looking forward to building lives, starting families, andthis was just a disruption that they were very, very leery of, and whowouldn't understand that?

AMANPOUR: Does it say something about the way politics is played?

M. DANIELS: If it weren't for the cheap shots and the, you know,personal unfairnesses that would -- that would come with it, there'salso just the inevitable loss of privacy, the security, all of that.

AMANPOUR (voice-over): Daniels and his wife Cheri divorced in the1990s, and she moved to California while he raised their four daughtershere in Indiana, but they remarried after several years apart.Unwilling to put his family through a re-airing of that story, hedecided to forego the race of a lifetime.

(on-screen): Do you think you could have beaten President Obama?

M. DANIELS: Yes, I think so. I mean, no one can know.

AMANPOUR: Business people and community leaders said that theyreally felt Governor Daniels could give President Obama a run for hismoney in a general election. Much has been said about Governor Daniels'lack of charisma, but most people say that his record of success in thisconservative Midwestern state speaks for itself.

(voice-over): He tamed the public sector unions and cut the numberof state workers. Daniels lowered property taxes and invested ininfrastructure projects.

M. DANIELS: I enjoy this centennial version of the -- as we love tosay, greatest spectacle in racing. Thanks, John.

AMANPOUR: Just before today's Indianapolis 500 race, he hosted areception for motor sport executives that he's trying to lure here.Doug Brown runs a local technology company. He's adding more than 100jobs thanks to Daniels' tax incentives.

BROWN: You don't think of Indiana as a high-tech state, but hispolicies really are growing jobs in that sector. Indiana had one of thehighest job growth rates for private companies in the nation.

AMANPOUR: As the governor of a small state, Daniels mingles easilywith his constituents here at the gym.

M. DANIELS: Hello. How are you all?

AMANPOUR: During his last campaign in 2008, he put out a series ofvideos that he called Mitch TV. This one shows him and his wife, Cheri,at the state fair.

C. DANIELS: Come on, Belle.

AMANPOUR: She came in second in the cow-milking contest, and he wona second term in a landslide. Daniels was budget director underPresident George W. Bush, and his attempts to control spending earnedhim a nickname that he still proudly displays.

(on-screen): So you have a lot of memorabilia, including what lookslike a samurai sword. What is this here?

M. DANIELS: That's what it is. Because of my alleged thriftiness...

AMANPOUR: Slash and burning?

M. DANIELS: ... well, some said -- I had that nickname for a while,and...

AMANPOUR: The blade?

M. DANIELS: Yes, the blade, and the nicknamer-in-chief conferredthat on me.

AMANPOUR: And that was?

M. DANIELS: President Bush.

AMANPOUR: Indiana's magnificent state capitol took 10 years tobuild and came in under $2 million. That's under budget. Now, ofcourse, that was in 1888, but the governor likes to say it's a metaphorfor the kind of fiscal prudence that's needed in today's hard times.

(voice-over): He slashed state spending and turned a budget deficitinto a surplus, and that's what made him so attractive to his partyfaithful.

M. DANIELS: The state was broke, for no good reason, except that ithad simply overspent its income seven straight years, and so we -- weturned that around.

AMANPOUR (on-screen): It's been said that for you, if you wererunning, if you became president, your agenda would be deficit, deficit,deficit, cut it, attack it.

M. DANIELS: Yes, reduce the debt, the long-term debt facing thecountry before it crushes the American dream, limits our influence inthe world, and, you know, possibly even worse consequences, and -- butthat -- to me, that is the challenge of this time.

AMANPOUR: Well, Paul Ryan has tried to put across his own budgetproposal, and it's quite controversial, particularly the Medicare aspectof it, because clearly this one is causing people to run away from it,not just politicians, but also people. The polls say that people do notwant their Medicare or their Medicaid touched.

M. DANIELS: Well, I'm not running away from it. I think it is thebest way.

AMANPOUR: Do you think it will be the litmus test, though, in these-- the election coming up?

M. DANIELS: I hope so. I think it is the central dilemma. I thinkit ought, therefore, to be the centerpiece of the next election, and weought to test the proposition -- and I have faith that the answer willbe yes -- that Americans are absolutely up to the job of making changesnecessary once they understand the facts.

AMANPOUR: Is there a way to do this in a way that does not put somuch of a burden on the individual, on the seniors?

M. DANIELS: There's a way to do it that protects the mostvulnerable seniors more. I mean, another, I think, important andpositive point to be made is that our current system is brutallyunfair. It is tilted toward higher-income people in many, many ways.There's no reason on Earth that we should be sending Warren Buffett apension check or paying for Bill Gates' health care or mine, for thatmatter. And in the 2.0 system of Medicare and Social Security, for thenext generation, not this one, we ought to heavily devote the resourcesto those who need them most.

AMANPOUR: You've also said that tackling debt, debt, debt andabsolutely having to get that done is paramount to the survival of therepublic and that perhaps there should be a truce on some of the very,very divisive social issues that tend to take up so much of the oxygen.Do you still believe that?

M. DANIELS: Yes, I do. You know, not that anybody changes theirmind, not that anybody retreats one foot, just that temporarily weaddress the issue that threatens us all. If this country goes broke, wewill all pay the price, black and white, gay and straight, male andfemale. We are all in this together.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: So there's a lot of politics to talk about this weekend,and that's exactly what we're going to do with our roundtable when wereturn.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: Today, Republican presidential candidates are re-learninga tough lesson: No one steals a show like Sarah Palin. The former vicepresidential candidate with a fondness for holiday weekend politicaltheater is launching a new round of speculation with her "One Nation"bus tour.

And here to read the tea leaves are ABC's George Will, Democraticstrategist Donna Brazile, the former Republican National CommitteeChairman Ed Gillespie, and ABC's senior political correspondent JonathanKarl.

Welcome, everybody.

George, what is up? Is Sarah Palin going to run?

WILL: I don't know.

AMANPOUR: What do you think?

WILL: Two things are infinite. One is the expanding universe, andthe other is media attention to Sarah Palin, who's a genius atmanipulating it. She has several political problems, the first of whichis there's no undecided vote in this country anymore about Sarah Palin,surely.

Second, the threshold question. It's not usually asked, but it's ineveryone's mind in a presidential election. Should we give this personnuclear weapons? And the answer is -- answers itself there. Thatdoesn't mean she can't be without political consequence.

If she gets in now, it will be because, I think, Michele Bachmann isabout to get in, and they take up the same political space, and the twoof them there can be devastating to Tim Pawlenty, because he has greatappeal to the evangelical Christians who are dispositive in Iowa, andshe can divide that vote and take it away from him, and thereby helpRomney.

AMANPOUR: So do you think from all the reporting you've done, Jon,that there is evidence of any serious laying of the ground by SarahPalin for a race? Or is this, as George says, really a publicity stunt?

KARL: I see absolutely no evidence that Sarah Palin is preparing torun for president. It doesn't mean that she can change her mind, but,look, she doesn't even have a scheduler. She has no donor network builtup. She doesn't have a press secretary. Every decision we can tell isbeing made strictly by Sarah and by Todd Palin. And there is nopreparation. You talk to...

AMANPOUR: The house she's just bought and all of that stuff?

KARL: The house she bought, it's a summer home in Arizona. I don'tthink that's a sign you're running for president. But, look, if you goand you talk to activists in South Carolina, Iowa, New Hampshire, theywill tell you there is no sign whatsoever of Palin or any Palinorganization.

AMANPOUR: So, Ed Gillespie, given your former position, what wouldthe effect of a Palin candidacy be on the race?

GILLESPIE: Well, I think she does command a great deal ofattention. You know, the media have a love/hate relationship with SarahPalin. They hate her, but they love to cover her. So she'll have apretty big impact in terms of other candidates responding to, you know,her policy proposals and her activities. But I like everyone else herehave no idea whether or not she's, you know, going to run or not.

BRAZILE: Any moment now, she's going to tweet, and we will learnwhether or not she would start off this bus tour at the Lincoln Memorialor the Washington Monument.

Sarah Palin is a phenomenon. She doesn't need to run by the rulesestablished by the Republicans. She can run simply on her owntimetable, when she feels like, and she doesn't have to followconventional wisdom. I think she's running. She sees a bigopportunity. And you know what?

KARL: You're certainly hoping she's running, right, Donna?

BRAZILE: No. Look, I'm hoping Michele Bachmann gets in...

AMANPOUR: Well, who is -- who is the dreamboat Republican candidatefor the Democrats?

BRAZILE: We don't have one right now.

AMANPOUR: Well, who would you rather run against?

BRAZILE: Well, my man dropped out, Haley Barbour. I wanted Haleyto run because clearly I could go on TV and translate everything that hewould say. But Mitch Daniels is not in the race. Tim Pawlenty is theperson I think to beat.

AMANPOUR: Person to beat?

WILL: At this point, yes.

AMANPOUR: Who do you think, Ed?

GILLESPIE: I think it's wide open. I think that's great for ourparty right now, and I think that -- I think largely the field isformed. There may be some late entrants still to come, but I thinkwe've got a field right now that whomever emerges as our nominee will beable to beat Barack Obama in 2012.

AMANPOUR: You say largely. I think you were a little bit moredefinitive earlier this week. You said the field is formed; the nomineewill come from the current crop.

GILLESPIE: I said the field -- I think I said largely formed.There may be some late entrants. My point was, I think that the -- formost Republican activists and donors and elected officials, they'reprobably going to, you know, start to sign up for somebody now in thecurrent field. There may be someone who comes later, but I suspect we-- you know, the field is pretty formed. Whoever emerges is likely tocome from this crop of candidates that we have soon to get in or now.

WILL: If, however, it's not fully formed, the late entrant wouldprobably be Governor Perry, for several reasons, governor of Texas.Texas is to the Republicans what California is to the Democrats, a greatsource of reliable electoral votes and money. Second, in everycontested Republican nomination scramble since 1980, there has been aTexan, John Connally, the first Bush, and the second Bush, so there is aspace there to be filled.

AMANPOUR: And you've been talking to people in Texas, right, aboutthis, Jon?

KARL: Yeah. And my sense is I find actually some of the leastenthusiastic about a Perry candidacy in Texas. I mean, he -- look, theguy's never lost an election, so he's clearly formidable. He just won atough primary in Texas. But the reaction I got from Texans was, do youreally think America is ready to elect another Texas governor aspresident right now?

AMANPOUR: Well, what about another campaign by Mitt Romney? He isabout to -- to announce next week on Thursday. He's kept a very lowprofile. He hasn't been doing any major interviews other than, youknow, he's been raising a lot of money. Is this all about to change?Are we going to see something different cropping up in the next week?

KARL: I think you're about -- look, he has been the invisiblecandidate, but he's been doing all that you need to do. He's proventhat he can raise money above and beyond anybody in this field, I thinkeven including Sarah Palin, if she were to jump in.

And it's fascinating right now. You're seeing Romney is going tocome out. It's going to all be about the economy. The biggest weaknesshe had last time was he flip-flopped on issue after issue. Now you havethe no-flip-flop Romney. He's sticking to TARP. He's sticking tohealth care. He didn't even back down from ethanol subsidies, eventhough he's not focusing on Iowa. You have a new Romney campaign.

BRAZILE: You make a point. Last week, he said that he helped tosave the auto industry, when a year ago he said that he was opposed tothe government bailing out the auto industry. We don't know what --which Mitt Romney will appear this week, and I think it's called aBittersweet Farm. Can you imagine that, Bittersweet?

AMANPOUR: Better or bitter?

BRAZILE: Is it Bittersweet? I think it's Bittersweet Farm.

AMANPOUR: Well, let me ask you, because he's -- you know, he'sobviously had a candidacy already. What makes him likely to do betterthis time around?

GILLESPIE: Well, I think he does have the -- you know, all themarkings of a second-time candidate. He's, I think, improved on thestump. I think he's much more comfortable as a candidate. And the --in terms of the political environment, the economy is the number-oneconcern, and he has credibility when he's talking about economic policyand job creation.

AMANPOUR: So that will be his strength?

GILLESPIE: I think that's probably his strong suit, exactly, yeah.

AMANPOUR: Stronger than for Tim Pawlenty?

GILLESPIE: Look, I think -- you know, as you know, I'm neutral, andI think that we have a field that, you know, is good.

AMANPOUR: But on the empirical facts?

GILLESPIE: You know, Pawlenty has a great record as a governor of avery blue state. Governor Romney has a great record in terms ofprivate-sector understanding of the economy and a critique ofObamanomics. You know, Governor Huntsman, Rick Santorum, Herman Cain,everybody has, you know, their own assets. Everybody has questions theyhave to answer, as well.

WILL: Let's, however, remember that at this point in the 2008electoral cycle four years ago exactly, the prohibitive favorite wasRudy Giuliani.

BRAZILE: Right, right.

AMANPOUR: Who is making some noises. But let me get to Medicare.And this week, there was yet another hiccup in the great Medicaredebate. And your former president, President Clinton, jumped intothat. Let's play what he said to Paul Ryan at the fiscal conferencethis week here in Washington.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

CLINTON: I'm glad we won this race in New York, but I hope theDemocrats don't use it as an excuse to do nothing on Medicare.

RYAN: My guess is it's going to sink into paralysis, is what'sgoing to happen. And you know the math. I mean, it's just -- we knew-- we knew we were putting ourselves out there, but you got to start --you've got to get out there. We've got to get this thing moving.

CLINTON: If you want to talk about it...

RYAN: Yeah, I'll give you a call. Good, thanks.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: So they were obviously talking about the New York 26th,the race that went for the Democrats, and they said Medicare was the bigbear in the race. Are people going to be running away from this? Orare we going to -- are the Republicans going to be able to coalescearound the current Medicare plan?

WILL: They're going to coalesce around the idea that the questionis not do we keep Medicare as we've got it now or is it some other plan,because the one thing we can't have forever is the unsustainable plan wehave now.

I don't think the New York race will drive people away from this,because it would have been a different outcome. Too close for comfort,but a different outcome. The Republican almost certainly would have wonif there hadn't been one of these free-booting third-party candidateswho spent $3 million, every penny of it his. He got no contributions,as far as anyone can tell.

Beyond that, what the Republicans have learned is -- Pat Moynihanused to tell me this -- after long public life, he said you cannotexaggerate how often and how simply you have to say things in publiclife to get this country's attention.

AMANPOUR: So do you agree that the Democrat won only because therace was split?

BRAZILE: This race, it was won on three issue, Medicare, Medicare,Medicare. And Kathy ran a great race. She was on message. She pointedout that her opponent, Ms. Corwin, supported the Ryan plan. That was akiss of death, and the Republicans know it. The Republicans are onrecord now to end Medicare as we know it. They're going to have to dealwith that.

And let me just tell you, Bill Clinton was thrilled that KathyHochul won that race. And for Democrats up on Capitol Hill, they havenew life, new air under their wings.

KARL: But Bill Clinton also made an important statement there. Hesaid that I hope Democrats don't use this as an excuse to do nothing,and that is exactly what Democrats are doing right now. There is noDemocratic plan on reforming Medicare. We're waiting for the presidentto come out with a plan. The president's old budget lost 97-0 in a votein the Senate. So, you know, I mean, who -- Republicans are scared.They are definitely scared. But there is nothing coming from the otherside.

BRAZILE: But the Ryan plan -- the Ryan plan lost. The Toomey planlost. Look, the Senate was in a mood to just say no so they can get outof town. But the Republicans have consistently tried to kill Medicarefor the last 30 years, and the Democrats...

GILLESPIE: No, that -- that is not true.

(CROSSTALK)

GILLESPIE: We've been trying to save Medicare. And the only partythat has a plan to save Medicare is the Republican Party. The Democratsin the Senate, who have controlled the Senate for -- for, you know,three years, going on three years now, haven't passed a budget in 760days.

AMANPOUR: OK.

GILLESPIE: They have nothing to offer the American people. Thatwill be the choice.

AMANPOUR: And we will continue this discussion in the green room.And Mitch Daniels told me that actually he thought Medicare should be alitmus test in this coming-up election. So join us there atabcnews.com/thisweek, where you can also find our fact checks of today'sinterviews from PolitiFact.

And when we return, getting jobs and hiring in this economy, butfirst, the Sunday funnies, so stick around.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And now, the Sunday funnies.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KIMMEL: The field for the Republican candidate for president isfinally taking shape. After announcing that he would not run last week,he made a big announcement. Donald Trump told "Fox and Friends" thismorning he might run. See, that's the kind of decisiveness we need.

(LAUGHTER)

O'BRIEN: Huge story. This is a bombshell. Indiana Governor MitchDaniels has announced he will not run for president in 2012. Yeah,Daniels reached the decision after early polling determined that even hedidn't know who Mitch Daniels was.

FALLON: President Obama is on a big European trip this week, and Iheard that he's sleeping at Buckingham Palace when he visits England.That's when you know the U.S. is short on cash, when even Obama's like,"Hey, is it cool if I crash at your place? No, couch is fine, couch isfine."

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And when we come back, what does it take to land a job inthis climate? We'll connect people who need a job with some people whocould offer them, in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

WASHINGTON: You will fail at some point in your life. Accept it.You will lose. You will embarrass yourself. You will suck atsomething, there's no doubt about it. And I know that's probably not atraditional message for a graduation ceremony, but, hey, I'm tellingyou, embrace it.

M. OBAMA: As you climb those career ladders, just remember to reachdown and pull others up behind you.

(APPLAUSE)

That's what so many folks have done for you all, and now it is yourturn to repay the favor.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: And so the caps and gowns are put away and the real workof finding a job begins. And I'm joined now by four members of theclass of 2011: Stuart Watkins of Louisiana State University; SavayiaSingh of the University of California at Berkeley; Melech Thomas ofHoward University, right here in D.C.; and Lauren Kiel of Harvard.

And I'm also joined by two business leaders, Doug Imbruce, who's thefounder and CEO of the Internet start-up Qwiki, not so many years fromhis own commencement day; and Mort Zuckerman, chairman and founder ofBoston Properties, publisher of the New York Daily News, andeditor-in-chief of U.S. News & World Report.

Thank you all for joining us. And we're going to get some wisdomfrom all of you.

But first I want to start, Savayia, with you. You're graduating.What are your prospects for a job? What are your chief concerns right now?

SINGH: Well, my chief concerns is, honestly, finding a positionthat I can use the valuable skills and knowledge that I've acquired inthe last four years.

AMANPOUR: So what's happening? Do you have a job prospect out there?

SINGH: I -- unfortunately, I do not have a prospective job. I havedefinitely put myself out there, applied to as many positions that Iwould like to eventually work in, but I don't have any job offers at themoment.

AMANPOUR: Are you afraid?

SINGH: Oh, I'm terrified. I -- again, the anxieties (inaudible)not having a secure future are very just all over the place right now.

AMANPOUR: And, Lauren, you went to Harvard. Many people think thatthat is an automatic entry into a great-paying job. What are yourprospects right now?

KIEL: So I've actually decided to postpone my job search foranother year and go to graduate school next year.

AMANPOUR: And like all of you, Stuart, I guess you're probablyburdened by quite a lot of debt, student loans.

WATKINS: Absolutely. It's something that I think our generation ofcollege students have really -- have had to face, taking out loans justso they can, you know, go -- go to those four-year institutions. I'mfortunate to where I actually have two offers right now, but I think oneof the things that I'm coming to terms with is, they're not in fields ofwhich I want to pursue or that I want a career in.

AMANPOUR: And, Melech, where do you sit right now in terms of doyou have a job? Do you have a prospect of paying down your student loans?

THOMAS: Well, I actually have no student loans from myundergraduate, but I have to take out $20,000 for my first year ofgraduate school.

AMANPOUR: Let me turn to you both. You've now listened to them.You see what they've studied. You've heard their prospects. Mort, asthe owner of a real estate company, as the publisher of newspapers andmagazines, what do you think they need to do? And are they hirable,what you've just heard right now?

ZUCKERMAN: Well, I don't know enough about their individual skillsand capacities, but this is the worst atmosphere for employment thatwe've had in 50 or 60 years. I mean, just think of the fact, in the'70s, '80s and '90s, the United States created over 20 million jobs ineach one of those decades. In the first decade of this country, wecreated zero jobs.

If I were hiring today, I would look for people of these qualitiesand characteristics, but I'd look for a particular thing, quitefrankly. The one thing that I look for more than anything else is someevidence of determination, which to me is the most important quality interms of how people will do in their career.

AMANPOUR: And, Doug, you set up your own company. You were anentrepreneur. I mean, you just didn't wait for the jobs to come to you.

IMBRUCE: I've always advised individuals to look not just for acareer, but for a calling. And I think that if you can demonstrate to apotential organization, potential employer that you have true passionabout their product, I mean, besides integrity and, you know, an obviousacademic background, that's what we look for at my company, Qwiki, is welook for a real passion about our products.

AMANPOUR: We've heard the advice and the analysis from theentrepreneurs and CEOs, but for you, when you were told that if youworked hard and you got into a university and if you got into a greatuniversity and you spent the four years, that it would be an inevitablepassport to a good job. Do you feel betrayed? Do you feel like theAmerican dream hasn't quite played its part for you?

THOMAS: Well, to be quite frank, especially people of Africandescent, the American dream has never really been a reality. And so asmuch determination as some of my peers even at Howard University havehad, because African-Americans usually have to work twice as hard to geta job in a field where the job market is already shrinking, it becomesvery, very frightening and very, very paralyzing for some of thestudents. And so I won't say betrayed, because the American dream neverreally promised us much.

AMANPOUR: Stuart, it did promise for people like you.

WATKINS: Yeah, I did feel a sense of, you know, the minute Istepped out of college, you know, I was going to be able to hit theground running, and now I'm just seeing that, yes, the offers that Ihave on the table are great, but I want to explore my passions. I wantto explore what I -- you know, what I want -- what I want to do fromhere on out. And it's just not right there at the moment.

AMANPOUR: And another thing that we're reading is that the majorthat you choose determines more and more now your success, not just atgetting a job, but moving from middle even to upper class, also justgetting a good salary for your life. Do you feel like you've taken theright majors?

SINGH: I almost don't feel like I have, like my major technicallyon my degree is interdisciplinary studies.

AMANPOUR: What does that mean?

SINGH: Exactly. It doesn't have a solid definition. I just tookthat overarching title and created my own major. But when just lookingat it, it doesn't -- it honestly doesn't say anything about myself.

AMANPOUR: And, Lauren, even though you've graduated from Harvardand you're going to University College in London, do you feel you'vedone the right major to get yourself a real leg up in the job market?

KIEL: So I was a major in history and literature of America, whichfor most doesn't really mean a whole lot in terms of what is that for acareer, what is that for professional development, so I think that's --and that's for a lot of Harvard students. We studied biology. Westudied English. We studied these subjects that don't necessarily leadto job. You're going to something to pre-professionalize yourself oryou have to, you know, make your -- put your leg up in terms ofinternships or getting yourself out there with working on the newspaperor working on some type of more professional way to show that you can do-- that you can do something career-wise.

AMANPOUR: Well, we do have a publisher sitting right here.

(LAUGHTER)

ZUCKERMAN: Well, I -- I will put it this way. The print publishingbusiness has now climbed to the number one on the list of Americanoxymorons. As you probably know, the print publishing business is very,very difficult. And what you've seen in that particular world is atremendous shrinkage of the number of people who are working in it. SoI would recommend that you hire -- ask this guy for a job, because he'sin that kind of high-tech world, which is growing quite dramatically.

AMANPOUR: And are you hiring?

IMBRUCE: You know, it's really interesting to come here.

ZUCKERMAN: I applied for a job earlier.

IMBRUCE: It's really interesting to talk about the dearth of jobsavailable, because in Silicon Valley, San Francisco, you literallycannot hire fast enough. I mean, candidates are wined and dined. It'sunbelievable. So I would say that if you're considering a major:engineering, engineering, engineering. America needs more engineers,period.

SINGH: I don't have a degree in technology or engineering. I feelthat's one of the main problems. I...

AMANPOUR: But you didn't have a degree, did you?

IMBRUCE: I had a degree in English and comparative literature.

AMANPOUR: OK, fine. See?

(CROSSTALK)

ZUCKERMAN: ... high-tech world, right?

AMANPOUR: And, Melech, you know, go ahead. I was going to -- howdo you see the next few years for yourself?

THOMAS: I think a lot of people set themselves up in college to goto school to find a job, but then they get their job and they get theircareer and they're unsatisfied, where you have two people here that havefollowed not just where the job creation market was, but they followedtheir own creativity and their own imagination and they found themselvesloving what they do.

KIEL: Can I say, I think that what you're saying about beingcreative and thinking outside the box is definitely something our classand our generation has had to do in the past couple of years. I knowfor us, at the Harvard newspaper, people when I was a freshman werewalking out the door to the New York Times or to the Wall StreetJournal. And now that's just not an option for us anymore, so we'reconsidering technology and media in a different way.

IMBRUCE: And that's where the next biggest company will come from.I mean, Facebook, which is going to be, you know, probably one of theworld's biggest technology companies fairly soon, came out of a dormroom, you know, at Harvard sophomore year. So I think...

(CROSSTALK)

ZUCKERMAN: I'm thinking of changing my name to Zuckerberg...

(LAUGHTER)

(CROSSTALK)

WATKINS: Well, just to build off of what Lauren said, I feel likeour generation is extremely resourceful. I mean, we grew up withinformation at our fingertips. And at the end of the day, we're goingto have to put two and two together. And this just not having a jobright after college is a small roadblock into what's to come, I think.

AMANPOUR: So what would you say -- what would you say is a wrap-up,is a final piece -- what would you say is a final piece of advice forour grads here?

ZUCKERMAN: Well, I mean, frankly, I would just get in the swing.You just have to get out there in that world and find a job, the bestjob that you can. I would not let it go -- too much time go by, becauseif you're sitting here a year from now without a job, frankly, you'regoing to be less employable than you are today.

AMANPOUR: Doug, advice, finally?

IMBRUCE: I agree with Mort. I mean, I think that, you know,situations are temporary and skills are forever, so it absolutely makessense to go, get out there, get experience, and try to just be the bestversion of yourself you can be, and add value, and that will set you on,you know, certainly the right career path.

AMANPOUR: Lauren, what are you feeling now after this discussion?

KIEL: Hopefully a bit more optimistic. I think we're all kind ofcharging forth knowing that, you know, our first job might not be thejob that we're going to have forever. We grew up in a world where ourgrandparents -- you know, both of my grandfathers worked the same jobstheir entire lives.

ZUCKERMAN: My parents and my grandparents were immigrants. Theydidn't even speak the language when they came here. So when they camehere and took the chances that it took to make this huge trip and startoff with nothing, I mean, I give that -- those folks a lot of medals forcourage.

IMBRUCE: The American dream is alive and well. I mean, I'msurrounded in Silicon Valley by tons of entrepreneurs from, you know,America, from abroad that have really, you know, contributed to society.

AMANPOUR: Well, on that very optimistic note, thank you to ourentrepreneur CEOs and thank you very much to our students.

And we'll be right back in a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: And now, "In Memoriam."

SCOTT-HERON: The revolution will put you in the driver's seat. Therevolution will not be televised, will not be televised, not be televised.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

AMANPOUR: We remember all of those who died in war this week. ThePentagon released the names of nine servicemembers killed in Iraq andAfghanistan.

And when we return, a final note about one of the world's mostwanted men finally being brought to justice.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

AMANPOUR: This Memorial Day weekend, we want to focus on what'sbeen a great month for international justice. It began with the killingof Osama bin Laden, and it's ending with the capture of a man accused oforchestrating the worst massacres in Europe since World War II.

Ratko Mladic on the run for 16 years now faces genocide chargesstemming from the war in Bosnia. It's a war that I spent the betterpart of a decade covering. And he'll be held to account for what a warcrimes judge has described as scenes from hell written on the darkestpages in human history.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR (voice-over): In the spring of 1992, Mladic, commander ofthe self-declared Bosnian Serb Army, turned the city of Sarajevo into aslaughterhouse, where neither men nor women nor innocent children werespared.

I covered the siege as his forces used the high ground around thecity to rain gunfire and artillery on the innocent civilians, turningstreets into sniper alleys.

By August of that year, shocking images emerged of emaciated Muslimsheld in concentration camps. They were the target of his brutalcampaign of ethnic cleansing, to exterminate or expel Muslims and createan ethnically pure Serb rump state inside Bosnia.

When I met Mladic and demanded answers about the bloodbath, like somany of his type, he would smile behind cold eyes and insist that he wasonly protecting his own people.

But throughout the '90s, as he turned Bosnia into the worst killingfields in Europe since World War II, the evidence against him wasoverwhelming. Peter Jennings was there, as well, as mortars rainedshells on Sarajevo's main marketplace.

JENNINGS: This will count as one of the worst attacks since thiswar began.

AMANPOUR: And all of this was unfolding in the age of never again,indeed, at the very same time as the U.S. Holocaust Museum was beingdedicated. And no less than the moral might of Holocaust survivor ElieWiesel was directed at President Clinton.

WIESEL: Mr. President, I cannot not tell you something. As a Jew,I am saying that we must do something to stop the bloodshed in thatcountry.

AMANPOUR: But still, the worst was to come. On July 11, 1995,Mladic's men stormed the tiny town of Srebrenica, and later Mladichimself swaggered through, his own cameras in tow, directing his forcesto hand out chocolates to terrified children. Chillingly, he told thesecivilians that they had nothing to fear.

But when the cameras were turned off, the real savagery began.Women were raped. Men and boys were taken to open fields and executedin cold blood, their bodies thrown into mass graves. More than 8,000Bosnian Muslim men and boys were killed.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

AMANPOUR: Mladic faces the war crimes tribunal at The Hague asearly as tomorrow, a court that the United States was instrumental increating. And now, with each passing year, it becomes less likely thatwar criminals such as Mladic can escape unpunished.

That's it for our program today. And for all of us here inWashington, thank you for watching. You can follow me all week onTwitter and at abcnews.com. And be sure to watch "World News with DavidMuir" later tonight. We hope you enjoy the rest of your holidayweekend, and we hope to see you again next week.

END