Transcript: Gen. Petraeus on Samarra Mosque Attack

June 13, 2007 — -- Following today's insurgent bombing of the Shiite holy site, the Al-Askariya mosque in Samarra, Charles Gibson spoke with Gen. David Petraeus, the top U.S. commander in Iraq, about the repercussions of the attack. Here is a transcript of the conversation.

Charles Gibson: General, how major a blow is this attack on the Samarra mosque?

Gen. Petraeus:Well, this is a serious blow, Charlie, but frankly, it is our hope that this can galvanize the Iraqi leaders to unite against this form of extremism. As you'll recall, this is a continuation of some attacks that took place a couple of weeks ago as well against some Sunni mosques. And, in fact, so far, all Iraqi leaders have united, have joined, linked arms in condemning this action, and Prime Minister Malaki and the ministers of interior and defense are in Samarra right now with Lieutenant General Ray Odierno looking at the site, assuring themselves of the security from this moment forward and doing an assessment, overall, the way ahead in Samarra, as we did earlier when the ambassador and I met with the Prime Minister.

Gibson:Well, you say Iraqi leaders have linked arms to condemn violence, but Muqtada al-Sadr immediately said, the only real enemy here is the United States, pulls his people out of the legislature. Does it appear that there are some who will use this for their own personal agendas?

Petraeus:That may be, Charlie. Actually, there have been different messages that have come out of Muqtada al-Sadr in the past week or so. Interestingly, some of those have been a bit more pragmatic and accommodating. I think, frankly, that his movement is still recentering itself, if you will, since his return from his stay in Iran, and I think we really need to, to see where it is going to go in the weeks and months ahead.

Gibson:But the President has repeatedly cited the February 2006 attack on this same mosque as the trigger for the widespread sectarian violence that, that so bedevils you. Aren't you worried that this is going to do the same, that this is going to touch off another round?

Petraeus:Well, we are concerned, and certainly the Iraqi leaders share that concern. And, in fact, when we met earlier today, a number of provisions were immediately ordered my Prime Minister Malaki. Our forces have helped Iraqi forces put those in place. We're helping to move reinforcements to Samarra from the Iraqi national police. And so there are a variety of measures that are already in force and more that will be taken in the days ahead. And I should point out, you know, Charlie, that the real surge is actually about to begin. We have been waiting for some time to have all of our surge forces on the ground, and the final Army brigade, the Marine expeditionary unit, and the combat aviation brigade are now here on the ground, and will swing into operation, along with some other forces here in the days and weeks ahead.

Gibson:Why are you of the belief that this is al Qaeda?
Petraeus:Well, it fits the hallmarks of al Qaeda, Charlie. It is in an area in which they have operated fairly routinely. In fact, we just recently hit one of their safe houses not far from Samarra. We are still exploiting the materials that were taken from that. And again, it's very much their mode of operation. So we do not have much doubt that this is al Qaeda Iraq, or at the least, an element that is very connected to them. I should note, by the way, that in recent days, literally, we have identified a number of al Qaeda bomb factories. We found four car bombs just yesterday in southeast Baghdad and hundreds of gallons of homemade explosive, hundreds of rounds of various munitions. Same a week earlier in southwest Baghdad, and a, a large find in Fallujah recently as well. They are under a fair amount of pressure. I think they know that we are going to contest some of the areas in which they have had sanctuaries in the past. And it is our sense that they are reaching for anything to try, indeed, to reignite that cycle of violence that they touched off by the bombing back in February of last year.

Gibson:Because, just looking at this from a distance, you think to yourself, well, this could be al-Sadr, using this for his own purposes to try to further weaken the Malaki government. Or it could be a Sunni simply attacking a sacred site of the Shia. There's, just seems to be no end of suspect. Yes, al Qaeda more likely, but there could be other people behind this as well.

Petraeus:Well, there'll be a full investigation of this, Charlie, by the Iraqi government. We will certainly contribute to it with forensics and others. Again, this is very characteristic of their mode of operation, not of the mode of operation by the extremists connected with the Sadr militia or some of the other groups. It also took some degree of expertise in explosives we believe, at this very early stage. The Sadr militia, the extremists, if you will, their secret cells, they're much more indirect. I should note, by the way, that this morning, we captured six of their mortar and rocket members, including five complete mortar systems, after tracking them back into Sadr's city after they conducted an attack.

Gibson:General, so much has been made, and you have emphasized, the need for Iraqis to provide their own security. If they can't protect the holiest of their shrines, what can they protect?

Petraeus:Well, they can protect a vast number of locations as they are at this time. There are many more holy shrines. Certainly, this, clearly, was a very symbolic one. It is the third or fourth holiest Shia shrine in Iraq. And so this is, again, a blow. This is again, as we find out what transpired, it could be an indictment. Certainly, something was compromised. But again, we need to see, as we get into the investigation, to find out what appeared to have taken place, and in the meantime, what we need to do is focus on the measures to be taken to make sure that the emotions and the passions of the moment do not result in a cycle of violence that, that goes upward as it did in 2006.

Gibson:As I mentioned, Muqtada al-Sadr uses this as a reason to pull his legislators out of the Iraqi legislature. In all candor, does this not make the benchmarks that we are asking the Iraqi government to hit, doesn't it make it harder and harder for them to do that, and make those benchmarks, in effect, further from reality than ever?

Petraeus:Well, first of all, Charlie, he didn't use this to pull his ministers out. He did that some weeks back. There are a variety of reasons for that, one of which may be, in fact, the abject condition of some of those ministries under their leadership. And I think there were some tactical reasons. That legislators?

Gibson:Well?

Petraeus:?from the movement are still there, many of them are fairly pragmatic?

Gibson:I'm sorry, General, let me interrupt you?
Petraeus:The real issue here, Charlie, I think, the real issue here is whether this galvanizes the Iraqi leaders to join and to move forward on the legislative front as well as they have today in condemning the attack and in calling for calm and restraint in the wake of it.

Gibson:Now, I understand that he pulled his ministers, his six ministers, out of the cabinet, in effect, some weeks ago, but today in his speech, he said he is pulling his thirty legislators, who, is his block in the national legislation, pulling them out. He announced that, I believe, in his speech today.

Petraeus:Well, he has done that before, Charlie, and they then were brought back as well. I don't think he wants to lose his influence in the council of representatives. Again, it's very, very early hours after this and I think certain people will try to take tactical advantage. But the vast majority of the Iraqi leaders have done what I think everyone would've hoped they would do in the wake of such a tragedy, such a horrific attack, and that is to condemn it universally, and again, call for calm in the wake of it.

Gibson:You, you mention that the full surge is just now coming into being, but you've had to send troops out to the Baghdad belt when there have been problems there. You now have to send troops to Samarra. Overall, does this weaken your attempt to bring peace to Baghdad?

Petraeus:We had always intended to move forces into the Baghdad belts, Charlie. That was part of the plan from the beginning. The place where we have had to move additional forces above those for which we originally planned is Diyala province, Baquba.

Gibson:Right.

Petraeus:?that seems to have been done without much cost. And again, we have to go where al Qaeda goes. And again, we planned to do that in most of these locations from the outset. You cannot secure Baghdad if you do not secure these sanctuaries on the periphery of Baghdad from which they launch their car bomb attacks and where they have the car bomb factories.

Gibson:Overall, General, today's events leave you discouraged?

Petraeus:Well, initially, there was that, you know, that terrible, sinking feeling. And then, the ambassador and I met with the prime minister. We then talked with leaders from all of the different political parties from each of the religious sects and ethnic groups in Iraq, and interestingly, we are somewhat heartened, actually, by the response and the way they have come forward together, religious leaders from all parties, sects, again, joining in declaring this an absolute disgrace. And, you know, there is even some hope, perhaps, that al Qaeda may have overplayed its hand, as it did in Anbar province, as it has in some neighborhoods in Baghdad, and in some other areas where, as you know, Sunni Arabs have rejected al Qaeda and have actually sought to join, coalition forces and Iraqi governmental institutions to fight against it.

Gibson:Let me just ask you about a couple of other things, quickly, and seize on that last point you made. How big a risk are we running if we arm Sunni forces to fight al Qaeda, and aren't we inevitably arming some of those who have attacked Americans?

Petraeus:Charlie, I think in every situation like this, over time, individuals who are adversaries have had to sit down with each other and determine who are the reconcilables and who are the irreconcilables. We have announced from the beginning that we were going to try to figure out who are the irreconcilables, and we would help the Iraqi forces kill or capture those, while making every effort, in coordination with the Iraqi government, to bring the reconciliables to the table, to our side, the Iraqi's side, to fight against the extremists of either al Qaeda or of these extremist militia elements. That is what has been going on. In Anbar province, as quickly as is possible, we have sought to help the Iraqi government connect the tribal and other individuals who want to fight al Qaeda to legitimate Iraqi security force institutions, getting them on the payroll of the Ministry of Interior as provisional police or what have you, getting them into training over time, and getting them connected to a chain of command that extends all the way back up to the minister of interior, in the case of those forces, or in the case of army recruits, to the minister of defense.
Gibson:So your general feeling is, you're comfortable that these are not arms given to Sunni forces that could, in time, be turned against Americans, or who could, or that could be used, perhaps, in a civil war that could result between Sunnis and Shia?

Petraeus:We are, but we also have our eyes wide open, Charlie. There is risk but we are at a point in this endeavor where we think, and the government of Iraq generally thinks, that some risk must be taken. You cannot just continue to do what we were doing in some areas and expect to have different results. That risk has paid off almost with breathtaking results in Anbar province where in a matter of just a couple of months tribe after tribe after tribe has flipped, if you will, opposed al Qaeda, proved what's in our counter-insurgency manual, that this is more about politics than it is about military operations, and that it's about getting the local population to reject the extremists and to embrace the government, if you will, to embrace what the coalition is trying to do.

Gibson:And just one final question, General. We have seen an increase in the percentage of Americans who are dying, being killed by IEDs. We have spent so much money in an anti-IED effort, and I wonder if that discourages you, that so many are still dying from IEDs, and, if indeed, that the anit-IED effort that we have made is, is, has been unsuccessful.

Petraeus:Charlie, that IED effort has been worth every penny. It has saved lives of our soldiers, countless lives. It has allowed us to identify almost as many improvised explosive devices as actually explode, but there is no question but that this is a very thinking enemy, it's a learning enemy. And we will counter one type of improvised explosive device, initiation device, or particular type of explosive, and they will make changes and adjustments to what it is that we do. We must continue this effort. We do see gains in certain areas against this, but again, we should expect that this particular enemy, who is absolutely barbaric and in some cases, willing to give his own life to try to kill us, is going to do what it takes to try to counter what it is that we are going to do. And we must remain determined, trying to counter that in turn.

Gibson:General, I appreciate it very much, thanks for your time.

Petraeus:Thank you, Charlie.