Rice: 'We Will Get Bin Laden'

March 17, 2005 — -- In an exclusive interview with ABC News, Secretary of State Condoleezza Rice made her most extensive comments yet on the continued hunt for Osama bin Laden.

On her first visit to Afghanistan, Rice today praised President Hamid Karzai's efforts to crack down on the country's heroin trade and applauded the country's steps toward democracy.

She later spoke to ABC News' Jonathan Karl about global terrorism, disarmament talks with North Korea and her future political ambitions.

The following is a transcript of the interview.

JONATHAN KARL: [Pakistani] President [Pervez] Musharraf recently said about eight to 10 months ago they came very close to getting Osama bin Laden. What was he talking about?

CONDOLEEZZA RICE: I don't know the specific circumstances to which he was referring. I read those reports, as well. We are going to continue the hunt for Osama bin Laden, and I think there will probably be times when we are closer, and times when we are further away, but the point is that his world has gotten smaller. He can't operate in Afghanistan. He is having more and more trouble. Al Qaeda is operating along the northwest frontier because the Pakistanis are now fighting there in ways that they were not. And it's also important not to just focus on Osama bin Laden but, of course, on the field generals that have been put out of commission like Khalid Shaikh Mohammed and Abu Zubaydah and others. So this is a network, it's an organization that has to be brought down, whose financing has to be cut off, whose territory has to be made smaller for operation. Eventually, I'm quite certain that we will get Osama bin Laden, but my own view is that until we do, there is really no point in talking about whether we have or have not come close to getting him.

KARL: So does it not matter much anymore if you already have caught these field generals. Does it matter?

RICE: Of course it matters. But I remember, Jon, very early on, when the president made that first speech to the Congress, that we talked about the fact that we shouldn't use Osama bin Laden's name too much. And I think it was only used once in that speech because we wanted to make the point that, while of course he is an important symbol of the organization -- in fact, at some point, probably had a lead operational role -- that what we wanted to do was to make al Qaeda ineffective -- the organization, its networks, its tentacles into different part of the world. And if you look at today as opposed to more than three years go, you have a worldwide net of intelligence and law enforcement that is breaking up al Qaeda in many, many countries of the world. And so it's not that we wouldn't want to get Osama bin Laden -- I really look forward to the day that phone call comes -- but it does mean that there is more work to be done than just the capture of Osama bin Laden.

KARL: So do you agree with President Musharraf when he says the trail has grown cold?

RICE: I don't really know how to judge that. The intelligence operation, our allies like Pakistan, are constantly in search of him, but the point here is that as much as we continue to focus on the hunt for Osama bin Laden, the territory in which he can operate, the ability to communicate with his field generals, with his organization, has been severely diminished. And I think we need to focus on that.

KARL: Congress authorized you to increase the reward for bin Laden and other high value targets to $50 million. It's currently $25 million. Will you do that?

RICE: We're certainly considing -- whether it would be an effective thing to do -- but I think the point to remember is that we have no shortage of assets looking for him. We have no shortage of contacts with people who know that we are looking for him, so of course we will consider the question of the reward, but how we structure the search for him is probably equally important.

KARL: And you now have new advertising. Have you gotten any new leads as a result of these ads?

RICE: I really can't comment on the day to day of this, Jonathan, but we have put more advertisements out. There are places where they are using radio that they haven't used it before. There is a kind of intensification of some of the efforts concerning this. But it is not that we haven't been intense in the hunt for the last three-plus years. The fact is, it is not that hard to hide in some of these places. I just flew over the border between Afghanistan and Pakistan, and even though I myself spent a lot of time in Colorado, I was impressed by the height of those mountains, and you can imagine that if people get into those mountains, in some of those places it might be difficult, but it is also difficult from places like that to communicate and to run an operation. And so the territory is getting smaller, and the Pakistanis are a lot of the reason that the territory is getting smaller. And the fact that Afghanistan is now a strong ally in the war on terrorism, with the Afghan National Army part of the hunt, gives us confidence that this organization is being hurt and hurt badly.

KARL: President Musharraf had promised that he would get out of his military uniform, step down as the leader of the Army in December. He did not do so. Is that going to cost him in terms of his relationship with the United States?

RICE: We have had discussions with the Pakistanis. In fact, I've had discussions since I've been here in Pakistan about the importance of a democratic path for Pakistan -- that whatever else happens, however important and central our relationship is, the president also cares about progress of democracy in Pakistan. There are good signs here. There is a burgeoning free press. I think people's individual liberties are flourishing. President Musharraf has been very aggressive in trying to rid Pakistan of some of the extremist elements that were growing up here, as a result of the connections earlier on to Afghanistan. He has also launched an educational reform that's an extremely important element. And if you look at where this country was on Sept. 11, you have to say it was a country on verge of extremism being heavily and deeply rooted in Pakistan, and much of that is now being addressed. So, yes, we are very concerned and have made it clear to our allies here in Pakistan that we expect to see democracy progress here. But it is also important to look where Pakistan has come from.

KARL: But in terms of pure democracy, you have taken a step back here. Musharraf has hung on to his power. He controls the military.

RICE: Well, we expect that there will be a democratic path leading to elections in Pakistan, and we will continue to make that point. It is also a good thing that you have a press that is freer than it has been in recent years, and it is a very good thing that extremism in education is being addressed here because ultimately you can have the trappings of democracy, but if you do not have an educational system that supports people who are well educated, people who are given opportunities, and people who are not taught ideologies of intolerance and hatred, then it's going to be very difficult to make democracy work.

KARL: North Korea has said that they will not go back to the six-party [nuclear disarmament] talks unless you apologize for calling them an outpost of tyranny. Are you going to apologize or take back those remarks?

RICE: The North Koreans are determined to change the subject from what North Korea is doing, and we are not going to let them change the subject. I am not going to get into a debate on semantics with the North Koreans. The North Koreans need to return to the six-party talks. It's the only way that they can find a way to enter the international community of states. It's the only way that they can realize the full benefits of integration into the international system of economic assistance, of ways to get out of the terrible situation in which the North Korean people find themselves -- where we talk every year about problems of starvation and malnutrition in North Korea. It is the only way that they are going to be able to convince their neighbors that they are devoted to a peaceful, secure environment. There is a lot on the table for the North Koreans. They have been told, for instance, that if they are willing to make the strategic choice and give up their nuclear weapons programs, they can have security assurances on a multi-lateral basis. They have been told that people are ready to deal with their energy needs which are very severe. Even without the six-party talks, the U.S. has been a major food donor because we don't want to penalize the people of North Korea. So there is a lot at stake here for the North Koreans, and they really should come back to the talks and stop trying to change the subject.

KARL: But do you stand by your statement that North Korea is an outpost of tyranny?

RICE: I think everybody knows what life looks like in North Korea, and everybody knows what kind of system rules in North Korea. And so as I said, "I'm not going to let the North Koreans change the subject."

KARL: Today in Afghanistan, we learned officially that the parliamentary elections have again been delayed. We know the State Department report that talked about Afghanistan being on the verge of turning into a narcotic state. You have talked about what a great example Afghanistan is, but there some bumps in the road.

RICE: Of course, there are bumps on the road in a place that 3 ½ years ago was ruled by the Taliban, one of the worst regimes certainly in the 20th century. Sometimes you just have to step back and give people credit for how much they have already achieved. It is very easy, sitting in a mature democracy like the United States, to forget the bumps in the road of our own democracy early on and the fact that it takes time to build some of these institutions. [Afghan] President [Hamid] Karzai said -- and I was also told at the independent electoral commission -- that there are some technical matters that they need to take care of in order to be able to hold elections. They have to do at least some kind of population count, and there were some questions about boundaries and they are working through those. They have an independent electoral commission that said they are not quite ready for elections -- they would like to have them in September. Nobody mentioned the word "election" in Afghanistan 3 ½ years ago, so, yes, I believe that they will hold the elections. It is important, and I made the point to them, that it is important that they hold them on time in September if that's what they've announced because the Afghan people are impatient to have their elections, and I think the Afghan government is also desirous of completing the governmental framework in Afghanistan by getting a parliament seated. As to the narcotics problem, yes, it's a serious problem in Afghanistan. We have -- with the Afghans, and with the British and with other partners -- developed a strategy that will depend a good deal on interdiction and law enforcement, but also on public education about poppy and about alternative livelihoods for those who decide not to grow poppy. It's a long struggle to deal with a narcotics problem. There has been a narcotics problem in Afghanistan for a long time, but I was impressed with the commitment of the government, the willingness to talk openly and transparently about the problem and to say to the Afghan people that responsible citizens in a new democratic Afghanistan will not grow poppy.

KARL: Everybody has asked you if you were going to run for president. You have answered that many, many times but nobody has asked you if you consider being on a ticket as vice president.

RICE: Jon, I don't want to be elected to anything. I've been telling people I don't think I ever ran for class president at any time in the time that I was in school. My desire is to do the very best job that I can do as Secretary of State. This is a great time, there are a lot of challenges. If we do this well, the United States uses diplomacy effectively in this time when there is so much change in the world, then I think we have a chance to leave a better world for generations, much the way that the people who responded at the end of World War II left a better world for generations. And so that's what I'm going to concentrate on. Then it's either Stanford or the NFL.