'This Week' Transcript 2-16-25: Rep. Hakeem Jeffries and Sen. Markwayne Mullin

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, February 16, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: DOGE dismantles Washington.

ELON MUSK, TESLA & SPACEX CEO: The people voted for major government reform.

KARL: Elon Musk takes on the federal workforce as Democrats struggle to fight back.

SEN. ELIZABETH WARREN (D-MA): This fight is about hardworking people versus the billionaires.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: This is part of the most corrupt bargain in American history.

KARL: But are their counterpunches having any impact at all? I'll speak with House Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, a THIS WEEK exclusive.

And Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin on President Trump's government shakeup.

An end in sight?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I know that President Putin wants to make a deal.

KARL: President Trump kicks off talks with Vladimir Putin to end the Ukraine war, as Vice President Vance picks a fight with Europe. What does this mean for President Zelenskyy?

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE PRESIDENT: Maybe there is something at the table, but not on our table.

KARL: Martha Raddatz and Ian Pannell join us on the stakes for Europe, America, and the rest of the world.

And –

ERIC ADAMS, NEW YORK CITY MAYOR: My attorney will handle the legal part. I'm going to handle running the city.

KARL: Top federal prosecutors resign after refusing to drop the corruption case against New York's mayor. Aaron Katersky has the latest.

Plus, our roundtable on the battle within DOJ and the courts.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

There were major developments overnight regarding Ukraine. We've learned that President Trump is sending a high-level American delegation, including Secretary of State Marco Rubio and the national security adviser, Mike Waltz, to Saudi Arabia this week to begin talks with Russia about ending the war in Ukraine. It's a first step perhaps towards finding a peace agreement, although it's a step taken without Ukraine.

Here's what President Zelenskyy said last night.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINE PRESIDENT: We – we don't have any papers, any invitations. And they – it's something strange for me to speak in this case, in this format if before we don't have any negotiation between us and our strategic partners.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: We will get to that, and to the surprising challenge that J.D. Vance made to America's European allies. He suggested they may pose a greater threat to the region than either Russia or China.

But we begin with the extraordinary events at home this week. The breathtaking actions which President Trump is taking, much of it following what he promised on the campaign trail, pink slips or thousands of federal employees, some fired, others taking a now expired offer to leave their jobs in exchange for being paid, without working, until September.

And in New York, a tense standoff played out over the Trump Justice Department’s efforts to drop, at least for now, corruption charges against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. The top prosecutor in the Southern District of New York, Danielle Sassoon, a highly respected conservative, who was appointed by Donald Trump, blasted the move and she resigned in protest.

Six other career prosecutors followed her lead and resigned, an exodus that has drawn comparisons to the darkest days of Watergate.

For the latest, I'm joined by our senior investigative correspondent Aaron Katersky in New York, and ABC's chief White House correspondent Mary Bruce, who starts us off this morning from the White House.

Good morning, Mary.

MARY BRUCE, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Jon.

Well, this may have been the most frenetic week yet since Donald Trump returned to the White House. Thousands of federal employees across the country told to pick up and leave. And at the center of it all, Elon Musk.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELON MUSK, TESLA & SPACEX CEO: Hello, everyone.

BRUCE (voice over): A remarkable scene in the Oval Office. Elon Musk holding court, answering questions for the first time about his efforts to dismantle the federal bureaucracy. President Trump, standing by.

MUSK: It would have a majority of the public vote voting for President Trump. We’ve won the House. We won the Senate. The people voted for – for major government reform, and that's what people are going to get.

BRUCE (voice over): On the chopping block this week, tens of thousands of federal job.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We want to downsize government, but make it better. Run it better, but downsize it.

BRUCE (voice over): The administration first targeting the roughly 200,000 federal employees who have been on the job less than a year or two. At least a dozen departments and agencies impacted. At the Department of Energy, at least 2,000 workers let go.More than a thousand people fired from Veterans Affairs. And at least 1,300 from the Centers for Disease Control and Prevention.

Employees even targeted at the National Nuclear Security Administration, which is responsible for maintaining America’s nuclear stockpile. After initially letting go some 300 employees, sources tell us managers frantically called back the fired employees, telling them they weren't fired after all, at least for now.

Speaking to an international summit, Musk making it clear, this is just the beginning, saying, entire agencies will have to go.

ELON MUSK, TESLA & SPACEX CEO: We do need to delete entire agencies as opposed to leave part of them behind.

It's kind of like leaving a weed. If you don't remove the roots of the weed, then it's easy for the weed to grow back.

BRUCE (voice over): Overnight Friday, the courts delivering Musk a partial win, allowing DOGE to continue accessing sensitive records from at least three federal agencies. Democrats decrying Musk's actions and access.

REP. MELANIE STANSBURY, RANKING MEMBER, OVERSIGHT 'DOGE' SUBCOMMITTEE & (D) NEW MEXICO: If an unelected, unvetted individual, private citizen is hacking our government systems, breaking the law, firing federal employees, dismantling statutorily created agencies, withholding funds, we are going to fight you in the courts.

BRUCE (voice over): But the president stressing he and Musk are playing for the same team.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Actually, Elon called me. He said, you know they're trying to drive us apart. I said, absolutely.

They're so bad at it. I used to think they were good at it.

MUSK: Yes.

TRUMP: They're actually bad at it, because if they were good at it, I’d never be president.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

BRUCE (on camera): Now, this process to slash the federal workforce has been anything but smooth. Court rulings have prevented the administration from firing thousands at USAID and the Consumer Financial Protection Bureau.

But Jon, the White House is not slowing down. DOGE is also reviewing operation at the Pentagon. And we have learned that some 15,000 employees at the IRS are now facing possible termination as early as this week, right in the middle of tax season.

Jon.

KARL: Undoubtedly more layoffs to come.

Thank you very much, Mary.

Now let's get to that tense standoff in New York over the corruption case against Mayor Eric Adams. So far, seven career prosecutors, including some with significant conservative credentials, have resigned in protest.

Our senior investigative correspondent, Aaron Katersky, is there in New York with the latest.

Aaron.

AARON KATERSKY, ABC NEWS SENIOR INVESTIGATIVE CORRESPONDENT: Jon, good morning.

Not since the Nixon era Saturday Night Massacre, when two officials resigned rather than obey the president's order to fire the special Watergate prosecutor has there been such a crisis of confidence at the heart of the nation's justice system.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KATERSKY (voice over): As of this morning, seven federal prosecutors in New York and Washington have resigned in protest of an order to dismiss the corruption case against New York City Mayor Eric Adams. One of them said, dropping the charges would only be carry out by a “fool” or a “coward.”

It's a remarkable repudiation. Career prosecutors who clerked for conservatives like Brett Kavanaugh and the late Antonin Scalia quit, refusing to take part in what they called a quid pro quo, dumping the case in exchange for the mayor’s cooperation with President Trump’s immigration agenda. Adams denied there was any such trade.

MAYOR ERIC ADAMS, (D) NEW YORK CITY: And I absolutely never traded my power as an elected official for any personal benefit.

KATERSKY (voice over): Adams appeared Friday with Trump's border czar, Tom Homan, clearing federal immigration agents to operate once again in the city’s jail complex on Ryker's Island. And Homan publicly leaned on the mayor to follow through.

TOM HOMAN, TRUMP ADMINISTRATION BORDER CZAR: If he doesn't come through, I'll be back in New York City, and we won't be sitting on the couch, I'll be in his office, up his – up his butt saying, where the hell is the agreement we came to?

KATERSKY (voice over): Adams pleaded not guilty in September to bribery, fraud, and soliciting illegal foreign campaign donations. But for the Trump Justice Department, whether Adams committed the crimes was beside the point. A memo from Acting Deputy Attorney General Emil Bove, a member of Trump's criminal defense team, said he decided the case should be dismissed, “without assessing the strength of the evidence.” Instead, Bove said, he wanted Adams focused on, “accomplishing the immigration objectives established by President Trump.”

The wave of resignations began with U.S. Attorney Danielle Sassoon, a member of the Conservative Federalist Society, appointed by the Trump administration. She warned the Justice Department was setting a, “breathtaking and dangerous precedent,” and said, “I cannot agree to seek a dismissal driven by improper considerations.”

Seven of her predecessors signed a statement commending her decision and her “commitment to integrity.”

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KATERSKY (on camera): On Friday night, officials were able to file a motion to dismiss the Adams case. A judge still needs to sign off. So, in the end, Jon, the Trump administration gets its way, but it's also triggering this unprecedented upheaval as President Trump tries to exert more control over the Justice Department and the nation's largest city.

Jon.

KARL: All right, Aaron Katersky. Thank you, Aaron.

I'm joined now by Congressman Hakeem Jeffries of New York, the top Democrat in the House.

Leader Jeffries, thank you for joining us.

I want to -- I want to start with that extraordinary situation in New York. Before she resigned, the acting U.S. attorney for the Southern District of New York sent the attorney general a scathing letter accusing DOJ of engaging in a quid pro quo with Mayor Adams. Let me just read part of that letter.

She wrote: Rather than be rewarded, Adams’ advocacy should be called out for what it is, an improper offer of immigration enforcement assistance in exchange for the dismissal of his case. It is a breathtaking and dangerous precedent to reward Adams’ opportunistic and shifting commitments on immigration and other policy matters.

How concerned are you that the Trump administration is trying to use the justice system to control the mayor of New York City?

REP. HAKEEM JEFFRIES, HOUSE MINORITY LEADER & (D) NEW YORK: Very concerned. And the situation is very disturbing. Mayor Adams has a responsibility to convince the people of New York City that he will be able to continue to govern in a manner that puts their best interests first at all times and that he’s not simply taking orders from a Trump administration, a Trump Department of Justice, or Trump officials who do not have the best interest of the city of New York at heart.

KARL: Because this prosecution has been suspended, which means the Justice Department can renew the prosecution at any time if they don’t like what Adams is doing.

JEFFRIES: That’s correct.

Listen, this Department of Justice is not promoting law and order, it’s promoting lawlessness and disorder. And that’s been consistent with what we’ve seen from the Trump administration from the very beginning, including, but not limited to, pardoning hundreds of violent felons who attacked and brutally beat police officers and then were released back into communities all across the country, threatening public safety. Many of these individuals who were pardoned, this was all facilitated, of course, by the Department of Justice. My Republican colleagues in the House have said nothing about this, or, at worse, they continue to support what has occurred, this lawlessness and disorder.

Many of these individuals who were pardoned, for instance, have extensive criminal records for things like domestic violence, weapons charges that are serious, and rape.

So, this is not an administration that is committed to the safety of the American people. They continue to undermine it and flood the zone with chaos.

KARL: More broadly, we’re in four weeks in this second Trump administration, what of all of that we’ve seen play out over these four weeks most concerns you?

JEFFRIES: Well, Donald Trump and Republicans consistently promised that they were going to lower the high cost of living, and they’ve done the exact opposite. They’ve shown no interest in lowering costs in the United States of America, which are too high. Housing costs are too high. Grocery costs are too high. Childcare costs are too high. Utility costs are too high. The cost of living is too high in the United States of America. This country is too expensive. But they’ve broken their promise. They have no interest in improving the quality of life of hardworking American taxpayers.

Instead, what they’re trying to do, while they distract the American people, is to jam the GOP tax scam down the throats of people all across this country, all in service of massive tax cuts for their billionaire donors and wealthy corporations. It’s a toxic bait and switch that is underway, and we will continue to push back forcefully.

KARL: But Donald Trump’s favorability rating is actually higher than it ever was the first time around. Let me ask you, I -- I -- a recent poll by Marquette looked at several of the things that he has done or says that he is going to do, and 63 percent favor the federal government’s recognition of only two sexes, 60 percent favor deporting immigrants who entered the United States illegally, 60 percent favor expanding oil and gas production, 59 percent favor declaring an emergency at the southern border.

Is there anything you are seeing that Trump is doing that you are in favor of, that you think is the right thing?

JEFFRIES: Let me say, as it relates to all of those issues, we’re just at the beginning. And the core promise that Donald Trump made is that he’s going to lower costs for everyday Americans. In fact, we were told that grocery prices would go down on day one, on January 20th.

Costs aren’t lower. In fact, costs are increasing. The price of eggs is skyrocketing out of control. Inflation is on the way up. That was the core promise that’s been broken.

With respect to immigration -- listen, we have to secure the border. We have a broken immigration system and we need to fix it in a comprehensive and bipartisan way, at thesame period of time as Democrats, we’re going to protect dreamers, protect farm workers, and protect families who help our communities across the country thrive.

KARL: So, the – the – I'm sure you saw Speaker of the House Johnson say the Democratic Party has no leader right now. You – you might expect it from him to say something like that, but your colleague, Don Beyer, a big supporter of yours in the House, basically said that the same thing. He said, “We’re still looking for that national spokesperson. And it could be that Hakeem,” you, “becomes that national voice. It hasn’t happened yet.”

So, are you effectively the leader of the Democratic Party nationally right now, the main spokesperson.

JEFFRIES: It’s my honor to be House Democratic leader, and we’re going to continue to work together in an all-hands-on-deck effort to push back against the far-right extremism that is being unleashed on this country with record velocity. We’ve got to fight in the courts, push back in the Congress, and continue to push back in the community.

And as House Democrats, we’re doing just that, particularly as it relates to their efforts to not only jam these massive tax cuts down the throats of the American people for the wealthy, well-off and well connected, but they want to stick working class Americans, middle class Americans and everyday Americans with the bill by effectively ending healthcare as we know it, hurting children, hurting women, hurting people with disabilities, hurting older Americans, hurting everyday Americans by slashing and burning Medicaid to the ground, effectively trying to jam up the Affordable Care Act, and they’re going to target Social Security and Medicare.

We’re pushing back forcefully against those efforts every day, every week, every month, every year, and that will continue.

KARL: Government funding runs out in less than a month now. We’ve seen over the past two years Republicans cannot or have not been able to pass government funding without Democratic support. Some of your supporters on the outside are saying, you should use, as leverage, the possibility of a government shutdown to push back at some of what the Trump administration is doing right now.

What will you need from Mike Johnson and from the Republicans to agree to go along with efforts to fund the government?

JEFFRIES: Republicans have consistently shut down the government in the past, and it would be no surprise if they do just that this time around. There’s a Republican president, a Republican House and a Republican Senate. They have a responsibility to make sure that government remains open and can function.

As Democrats, with respect to any spending agreement, our view, our test is whether that spending agreement meets the needs of the American people in terms of their health, their safety, our national security and certainly the economic wellbeing of everyday Americans.

Rosa DeLauro is the top Democrat on the Appropriations Committee. She’s often in conversations with her Republican colleague in the House, as well as our Republican and Democratic colleagues in the Senate. We’ll see how that unfolds over the next few weeks. But we are going to make sure that any agreement that is ultimately signed off on has to be done that meets the needs of the American people and it has to be implemented fully in compliance with the law.

KARL: And just quickly, before you go, have you had any conversations with the White House? Have you talked to Chief of Staff Susie Wiles or the president about this?

JEFFRIES: I have not had any conversation with the White House, but I do expect that as we get closer and closer to March 14th that those conversations will perhaps intensify. And, at the end of the day, what we have been clear about is that this budget that is working its way through the House of Representatives is a non-starter. Every single Democrat opposed it a few days ago in the Budget Committee and I believe that that will continue to be our position because it’s out of control.

KARL: All right, Democratic Leader Hakeem Jeffries, thank you very much.

Up next, top Trump administration officials are heading to Saudi Arabia for peace talks on the war in Ukraine. Ian Pannell and Martha Raddatz joins join us next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Would you agree that it's a more aggressive foreign policy than your first term? And why is that?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: It's more aggressive. It's better. Why? Because I think I've had a lot of experience. And in my first term, I was fighting everybody because they were very aggressive toward me. I always said survival and taking care of the country. Not necessarily in that order.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: President Trump's moves to negotiate peace talks between Russia and Ukraine this week along some of America's closest allies. The German chancellor said they would not accept, quote, "a dictated peace," and President Zelenskyy responded overnight to news that Ukraine may be left out of the negotiations in Saudi Arabia this week.

But it was Vice President JD Vance's speech at the Munich Security Conference that most shocked European leaders.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

KARK (voice-over): In Munich this week, Vice President JD Vance stunned America's European allies by saying it is their governments and not Russia or China that represent the biggest threat to security in the region.

JD VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: The threat that I worry the most about vis-a-vis Europe is not Russia. It's not China. It's not any other external actor. And what I worry about is the threat from within, the retreat of Europe from some of its most fundamental values.

KARL: In his speech, Vance made no mention whatsoever of Russia's invasion of Ukraine as European leaders anxiously await clarity of how the administration plans to try to end the war. Vance instead used his speech to accuse them of sidelining and censoring right-wing groups.

VANCE: In Washington, there is a new sheriff in town, and under Donald Trump's leadership, we may disagree with your views, but we will fight to defend your right to offer it in the public square, agree or disagree.

KARL: Afterwards, the vice president met with Ukrainian President Zelenskyy.

VANCE: We want the war to come to a close. We want the killing to stop. But we want to achieve a durable, lasting peace.

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, UKRAINIAN PRESIDENT: Really we want peace very much, but we need real security guarantees.

KARL: The week began with President Trump attempting to begin negotiations with a 90-minute phone call with Vladimir Putin followed by a call with Zelenskyy.

TRUMP: I think President Putin wants peace and President Zelenskyy wants peace, and I want peace.

KARL: Trump told reporters he believes Putin can be trusted.

TRUMP: I know him very well. Yes. I think he wants peace. I think he would tell me if he didn't.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you trust him?

TRUMP: I would like to see peace.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Do you trust President Putin?

TRUMP: I believe that -- yes. I believe that he would like to see something happen. I trust him on this subject.

KARL: And he pushed back on fears he is sidelining Ukraine in the talks.

UNIDENTIFIED REPORTER: Will Ukraine have a seat at that table for those negotiations?

TRUMP: Of course they would. I mean, they're part of it.

KARL: Trump's call with Putin came as Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth signaled what would be a major change in U.S. policy, ruling out NATO membership for Ukraine and saying they will not regain all their territory seized by Russia.

PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE: We must start by recognizing that returning Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.

KARL: One prominent Republican senator called Hegseth's comments puzzling and disturbing, a, quote, "rookie mistake."

SEN. ROGER WICKER (R-MS): Look, everybody knows, and you know, and people in theadministration know, you don't say before your first meeting what you will agree to and what you won't agree to.

KARL: Though the administration walked back Hegseth’s remarks, the suggested policy shifts were not far off from what Trump himself signaled on the campaign trail.

At the ABC News debate in September, Trump declined to say whether he wanted Ukraine to win the war.

DAVID MUIR, ABC NEWS ANCHOR, ABC WORLD NEWS TONIGHT: Just to clarify in the question, do you believe it's in the U.S. best interest for Ukraine to win this war, yes or no?

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: I think it's the U.S. best interest to get this war finished and just get it done, negotiate a deal, because we have to stop all of these human lives from being destroyed.

KARL: And this week in the Oval Office, Trump wouldn't say whether Ukraine should be an equal partner in peace talks.

REPORTER: Do you view Ukraine as an equal member of this peace process?

TRUMP: It's an interesting question. I think they have to make peace. Their people are being killed and I think they have to make peace.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

KARL (on camera): With Trump officials set to meet a Russian delegation for peace talks in Saudi Arabia next week, Zelenskyy appears to be excluded.

To help us understand what comes next in Ukraine, I want to bring in our chief foreign correspondent Ian Pannell in London and my “This Week” co-anchor and chief global affairs correspondent, Martha Raddatz, here in Washington.

So, Ian, we heard overnight, Zelenskyy responding to the news of this Russian-American talks in Saudi Arabia. Here's what he had to say.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

VOLODYMYR ZELENSKYY, PRESIDENT OF UKRAINE: We don't have any papers, any invitations, and it's something strange for me to speak in this case and this format if before we don't have any negotiation between us and our strategic partners.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: I mean, this is rather extraordinary, isn't it? We've got basically the beginning of this peace process for Ukraine and Ukraine's not part of it?

IAN PANNELL, ABC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Yeah, absolutely. I mean, if you just step back for a second we're almost at the three-year mark since the start of Putin's large scale invasion.

And if Ukraine is forced into a deal whereby it gives up 20 percent of its land, it doesn't get any NATO membership, and now the United States government, the Trump administration is asking for 50 percent of its mineral resources not in exchange for something now, but almost as a down payment for the military supplies that have already taken place. So I think for many Ukrainians, this doesn't appear a starter.

However, think important to remember, General Kellogg, who's the Trump administration special envoy for Ukraine, is going to be in Ukraine next week. It's interesting that Steve Witkoff, the Middle East envoy, who hammered out this deal between Hamas and Israel. Remember that deal involved essentially a twin track process where you never had the Israeli officials and Hamas in the same room.

Is it conceivable perhaps that you have a deal where Zelenskyy is talking to Kellogg and Russia is talking directly to America?

But also for the Europeans, I mean, they -- they have just announced that they're going to hold an emergency summit tomorrow to discuss what in the words of Keir Starmer, Britain's prime minister, has called a once in a generation moment for our national security.

KARL: Yeah, and we saw some strong reaction to the speech that Vice President Vance gave in Europe, challenging the Europeans. He -- it seems to me like we're seeing a broader breakdown in the U.S.-European alliance, a rather dramatic one.

PANNELL: Yeah, I would totally agree with that. I mean, I think you could probably go as far to say is that the transatlantic relations are at their lowest point since the end of the Second World War. You know, when J.D. Vance went there, he met with the AFD -- AFD which is Germany's far right party. He suggested that Europe need to take immigration more seriously and that there somehow these barriers where we decided after Second World War never again meant excluding far-right parties, needed to be undermined.

In other words, it was in the words of Elon Musk saying, it's not make America great again, it's MEGA, make Europe great again.

But Olaf Scholz, who's Germany's chancellor, at least for the next few days or so, he also said that never again means not talking to these people that there have to be certain barriers. He also went on to say that Germany will not accept outsiders interfering in his country's elections. This is a question of sovereignty and many other European countries are saying the same thing at the moment.

It's going to be interesting to see what comes out that summit, but to say that relations are bad is an understatement and but there are real challenges, I think for Europe -- the European -- Europeans have got to get a handle on their own defense. They've got to decide what to do about Ukraine and they can no longer rely on Uncle Sam just to support it -- Jon.

KARL: So -- so, Martha, on -- on the on these talks in Saudi Arabia from the American side, what -- what is the expectation? What are they going to achieve?

RADDATZ: Well, this is step one, and I think everyone is waiting for step two, and Donald Trump has made it very clear he wants to meet with Vladimir Putin.

But in so many ways, Ukraine is the loser here. Even starting off in this, we heard Pete Hegseth, the Secretary of Defense, lay out what the U.S. would not accept and going back to the borders pre-2014

But you have to remember here, Russia invaded Ukraine. And right now, Zelenskyy is not part of these talks in Saudi. He basically had to say, we will not do anything unless we're part of these talks. His poll numbers are quite terrible. You remember at the beginning of the war, about 90 percent; you look at his poll numbers now, 50 percent it is because exactly what *Ian said, this war has dragged on for three straight years.

You go over there, I've been over there, Ian has been over there, and you see the people, the morale really fading. So Zelenskyy is really in the backseat on these negotiations, as Donald Trump very strongly says, I'm going to meet with Vladimir Putin and I'm going to see what happens here.

KARL: And Russians clearly with the upper hand. And just now, we just saw Marco Rubio had a joint press conference with Israeli Prime Minister Netanyahu, and he made some news about Iran.

RADDATZ: He -- very, very strong statements about Iran, the two of them. That is their primary concern and that Iran cannot have a nuclear weapon. We've heard that from Donald Trump before. We've heard that from Joe Biden before. But to come out and say that directly with rumors and talk about Israel possibly going after Iran's nuclear facilities, again, Iran apparently has not made a decision to build a nuclear weapon, but boy, they sure could and they could do it fast, Jon.

KARL: All right. Martha Raddatz in panel. Up next, a top Senate confidant of President Trump, last year, he helped convince Trump not to oppose further aid to Ukraine. Find out where he is now and what he is telling Trump now, when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Joined now by Republican Senator Markwayne Mullin of Oklahoma, who is a member of the Senate Armed Services Committee.

Senator Mullin, thank you for being here.

You – you’ve been a – consistently a support of Ukraine. You helped wage the battle to continue funding for Ukraine over the past two years. What about now? Do you think – can Ukraine still rely on U.S. support as this peace process unfolds?

SEN. MARKWAYNE MULLIN, (R) OKLAHOMA & ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: I believe they can, but keep in mind, Jon, that this war would never happen if President Trump was in office. And so our – our whole position from the beginning was trying to put America in a position of peace through strength. Underneath the Biden administration we looked weak, which is why we started having wars break out everywhere. There was no negotiations when it was clear that President Trump was going to be able to win the – the presidency back. We wanted to make sure we were still in a position of peace through strength. And so, as we were going through this process, we knew President Trump, once he got in office, could end the war. And that's exactly what he’s doing right now. That's why people are coming to the table. That’s why Zelenskyy has put out and said that he's excited about the opportunity of – of ending the war. Putin is now at the table, and you have other countries that are trying to accept and – and negotiate a peace deal through, all because of President Trump's leadership.

KARL: Senator Roger Wicker, of course, is the chair of the Senate Armed Services Committee, and he the United States should continue to supply weapons to Ukraine until there is a ceasefire. Do you think that's the way the White House sees it?

MULLIN: You know, the – Chairman Wicker and I haven't had a direct conversation about that since President Trump's been in office, and neither has President Trump and I. I know that negotiations are moving forward, and we want to have Ukraine and – and Russia both at the table. And I think that negotiations go better if both sides are looking for a peace deal because they're at a – they’re at a neutral position.

So, now, what the negotiation deal looks like, Jon, I – I don't know. That's going to be – that's going to be dependent on those that are sitting at the table. And I'm not going to be one of those guys sitting at that table.

KARL: Now you saw – Zelenskyy seems a little miffed that Ukraine is not being included in these talks with Saudi Arabia. Now, it’s important to point out that just over the last nine or ten days you've seen Marco Rubio, you’ve seen Scott Bessent, the Treasury secretary, the vice president, J.D. Vance, all meeting with Zelenskyy. Do – do you think we're going to see a two-track process here where negotiations on one side are going with – with Russia and a separate set of negotiations going on with – with Ukraine?

MULLIN: I think what President Trump is doing here is actually really smart. He's – he’s meeting with Zelenskyy. He's having conversations with him. You're seeing Rubio. You saw – you saw the senators and – and representatives both met with Zelenskyy while they were in Munich. And then you’re seeing them also meeting with – with Putin and Saudi Arabia. What that is doing, Jon, is that's putting both people – getting them in separate rooms, talking about what they will accept and then finding out a negotiation path forward before you bring them to the table. A lot of times if you bring people to the table too fast, Jon, it'll blow up, they'll walk away, and you'll set back the talks for maybe six months.

Right now people are dying every single day. We do know we have the best negotiator possible in the White House. I mean, literally, President Trump wrote "The Art of the Deal." He knows how to negotiate. And I believe if we will trust the process, he will be able to negotiate a peace deal for both countries.

KARL: I want to read what "The Wall Street Journal" editorial page had to say about all of this, this week. They said, “Mr. Trump likes to negotiate from strength, but on Ukraine he sounds like the one who wants a deal more. Mr. Putin, meanwhile, is continuing to bomb Ukraine's cities and power plants and take territory in the east, albeit at enormous human cost. If Mr. Trump wants to end the war on honorable terms, he may have to demonstrate he can raise the pressure on Mr. Putin.”

So, what is your sense? Is – is President Trump poised to actually really turn the screws on Putin?

MULLIN: Absolutely because Putin knows the one person that can truly change the war is the United States. If we went all in for Ukraine, if we went all in with the resources we have, from air superiority to – to the weapons that we can deploy to Ukraine, Putin knows at that point he would be in an extremely negative position. I think that being the opportunity for President Trump to talk to Putin and say, listen, we want to end the war. We don't want to have to engage more. But we're not going to allow you to move forward. So, let's negotiate a peace deal here or you're going to force our hand to be farther involved. That's what peace through strength is. It's negotiating peace, but using strength as a backup. If you make us do something, we will do it.

We did this in Syria when President Trump was in office in 2017. You saw that Putin went ahead and engaged with – with – with Syria. They used chemical weapons. And immediately what President Trump did is he bombed the airport and took over the air space that Russia was control over, and he controlled the air space for the remainder of his presidency.

So we had the ability to do it and Putin knows that.

KARL: So let me ask -- let me turn to what's happening here at home. Do you have any concerns about the speed of the layoffs that we're see coming out of Elon Musk's, you know, DOGE efforts?

MULLIN: Well, Jon, we hate that anybody's losing their job, but at the same time, we know that the -- the debt that we have in this country is not manageable, and it's becoming a national security risk, and we're spending nearly a trillion dollars a year just in servicing the debt. That is scary. We're spending more on interest payments than we are in our Defense Department now.

Anybody will tell you that is -- that is a road for disaster. So any time you take over a situation like Elon Musk has had many opportunities and many experiences with taking over businesses, you had to start cutting some of the fat.

And unfortunately, the number one expense we have in the United States government right now is payroll, and when you start cutting departments, some people's jobs are lost. And it hurts us because we don't want anybody to lose their job. But at the same time, we have to get it under control because if we don't get our debt underneath control, it becomes a national security.

Can you imagine if we get downgraded -- can you imagine if the dollar starts losing its value, the inflation rate that takes place? And then what happens -- our buying power, the ability for -- invest into the country, the ability to -- us to invest in our military starts shrinking, and then we start losing the strength part when we start wanting to be at the negotiating table from peace through strength.

KARL: I think the number one expense is actually entitlement, Social Security and Medicare which, of course, President Trump has said he doesn't want to touch.

And very quickly before you go, should Musk come before Congress --

MULLIN: These are true (ph).

KARL: Should Musk come before Congress and testify? He's promised, you know, ultimate transparency here. Should he -- should Congress exercise some oversight and have him testify about all of this?

MULLIN: Well, I think that's up to President Trump. Keep in mind, President Trump put in Musk to be a consultant. Just like many successful corporations around the world, including myself that have hired consultants to come in to look at it from an unbiased perspective. When you have politicians who’s been in office for 40 years, they a lot of times want to cut everything except their pet project or things that are in their backyard.

When you have a consultant come in --

KARL: All right.

MULLIN: -- which is why companies hire consultants, they look at simply the numbers.

KARL: Yeah.

MULLIN: And when they do, all that Musk is doing is advising the president based on what he has seen.

KARL: All right.

MULLIN: At the end of the day, it's President Trump's decision on what happens.

KARL: All right. Senator Mullin, I really appreciate your time. We'll continue this conversation in the coming weeks. Appreciate it.

Coming up, the mass resignations of some of the Justice Department's most respected and conservative career prosecutors. The roundtable is next.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: We'll be right back with the Roundtable.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: All right, let's bring in the Roundtable. Former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, Former RNC Chair and Trump Chief of Staff Reince Priebus, Former Trump Justice Department Spokesperson and Dispatch Senior Editor Sarah Isgur, and Democratic Strategist and 2020 Bernie Sanders Campaign Manager, Faiz Shakir.

OK, let me start with you, Sarah, as a Justice Department veteran, this is an extraordinary series of events we've seen this week. Seven resignations over this effort by the Justice Department to pull the plug -- I mean, not effort, they did it -- pull the plug on the prosecution of Mayor Adams. What's going on?

SARAH ISGUR, THE DISPATCH SENIOR EDITOR & FORMER TRUMP JUSTICE DEPARTMENT SPOKESPERSON & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, and remember, when the Nixon Saturday Night Massacre happened, everyone agreed that we'll --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: That was just two resignations.

(LAUGH)

ISGUR: It was two resignations.

KARL: This is seven.

ISGUR: And they agreed that the president had the power to do that. They were simply signaling that they didn't think it was a good idea. Here, there's something a little bit different going on. A lawyer actually has to sign this dismissal, and what those lawyers were saying is, I will not put my name on this. I believe that this opens the door for a president to say, if you don't fully support my agenda sufficiently enough that I will bring criminal charges against you, which is what they did when they are not dismissing the indictment with prejudice, meaning they're telling Eric Adams, they can bring back these charges at any point if he doesn't stay in line.

FAIZ SHAKIR, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST & BERNIE SANDERS 2020 CAMPAIGN MANAGER: One of the reasons they're not signing their name to it is because there's a wonderful judge who oversees this case, Judge Dale Ho, worked with him at the ACLU, a person of high integrity and he's going to make somebody who signed their name to this have to defend. Why is this in the public interest that we're going to dismiss this case, that we're going to accept bribery from foreign nationals to fund campaigns and we're somehow going to turn a blind eye to it? I don't think it's going to stand up well to whoever has to defend this case.

(CROSSTALK)

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, the DOJ has the right to determine whether --

DONNA BRAZILE, FORMER DNC CHAIR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: And Mayor Adams (inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: Well, the DOJ has the right todetermine whether --

BRAZILE: And Mayor Adams says that (INAUDIBLE)

PRIEBUS: The DOJ has the right to determine whether or not this prosecution goes forward. We can all agree on that. The one thing we can also agree on is we don't really know what the DOJ knows. Maybe they're dismissing it without prejudice because they don't -- they're not comfortable with the case as it stands. There might be some things --

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Actually, Reince --

PRIEBUS: There might be some things that are there that they want to look into as well. And the president is very sensitive about this topic of public officials being prosecuted. He went through it. So I happen to know for the last year the president was very uncomfortable with this case. So I'm not surprised that they want to move forward and get rid of it.

BRAZILE: Eric has a cloud over his head. He knows that. Mayor Adams says he's up for re-election. He understood going into 2025 that he wanted to cut a deal. He went down to Mar-a-Lago, and somehow when you read all the legal documents, you say, oh, my god, something here doesn't fit, doesn't fit the script, and you know what that something is? It's that line that says by November 2025 if Eric is unable or incapable of carrying out what Trump wants him to do --

PRIEBUS: You don't know that.

KARL: He could be prosecuted again.

BRAZILE: Thank you.

PRIEBUS: OK.

BRAZILE: What is that? A quid pro quo? What is that?

KARL: But, Sarah, wait a minute. Let me -- can you just please bring this home for a second? This acting U.S. attorney for the -- now former, for the Southern District of New York who resigned is --

ISGUR: Trump appointed Danielle Sassoon.

KARL: OK. So this is not some white deep state, left-wing communist, deeper than the bowels of the justice system, she was a clerk for Anton Scalia. Federalist Society like you.

ISGUR: Yes, all of those things which I think gives her letter a lot of gravitas or it should. That being said, it's also worth noting that plenty of people thought the case against Eric Adams was not the strongest case to bring and as you said, a lot of these cases against public figures have fallen apart down the road for the Department of Justice.

I think what she's flagging here is not just the underlying case, but why it's being dismissed is her actual objective.

KARL: Which is not on the merit. Explicitly not because of the merits.

SHAKIR: But it's not just this case. Real quickly. Reince said, you know, the sensitivity that Trump has. It's not just about this case. Like Blagojevich pardon. We're dismissing the Foreign Corrupt Practices Act entirely, we're killing off the inspector generals, we're firing government ethics watchdogs. There's a big picture at play here. The idea that bribery should just be condoned, it's a sense of a culture that says, hey, I don't care as long as you're transacting for my good.

KARL: So let me pick up --

SHAKIR: Those scenario cases all fell apart.

KARL: Let me pick up on this because we heard from Trump yesterday. Nice Saturday, he makes news all the time. He posted on Truth Social, I think we have it here. I'm going to just try to read the whole thing. "He who saves his country does not violate any law."

BRAZILE: Yes.

KARL: Reince, what does -- what does that mean?

PRIEBUS: But isn't it -- it's catnip for the media. It's entertainment for Trump. It's a distraction.

KARL: He's president of the United States.

PRIEBUS: Listen, the president --

KARL: This is a statement from the president of the United States.

PRIEBUS: I've lived through this. I have been lived through this.

KARL: Yes, you have.

PRIEBUS: In good times and bad times, the president enjoys taking a grenade out on a Saturday afternoon, throwing it on the floor and watching everybody react. Now could it be a distraction? Could bit a diversion? Could it be just pure entertainment? This is what the president does.

KARL: So he's not saying the president is above the law?

PRIEBUS: And there is no downside. There's no downside.

KARL: OK. OK. Can we change --

ISGUR: But they have opened investigations into these lawyers. Danielle Sassoon and the other lawyers who have resigned, the DOJ has said they are on leave and they are being investigated by the Department of Justice for refusing to sign this dismissal order.

KARL: Investigated for taking a principled stance. So let me -- can we talk about Democrats for a second? Donna, you don't mind, do you?

BRAZILE: Seriously? I wore blue for that.

KARL: There are some challenges facing the party.

BRAZILE: Yes.

KARL: Just to put it mildly.

ISGUR: What party?

KARL: I want to play something that Senator Mark Warner had to say about where Democrats are right now. Take a listen.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

SEN. MARK WARNER (D-VA): I think the Democrats' brand is really bad, and I think this was an election based on culture. I think the majority of the party realizes that the ideological purity of some of the groups is a recipe for disaster, and that candidly, the attack on over-the-top wokism was a valid attack.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: Does the senator from Virginia have a point?

BRAZILE: Well, he's up for re-election next year but first --

KARL: In Virginia.

BRAZILE: In Virginia. But there's a major election that will take place this year for governor of the state of Virginia. Look, the two of us can sit back and give you just a laundry list of things that we hope the Democratic Party will begin to do. The first thing is they need to have a forensic analysis of what happened so that they can build back stronger, quicker, faster. But the bottom line is, nobody wants a party that whines. Nobody wants a party that's just in opposition.

Donald Trump was elected in part to lower costs. We want a party that will fight for the middle class, for people who are struggling every day. Fight for those federal workers who, I think, some of them are being unfairly targeted. That's what they want Democrats to do, stand for principle and stop whining.

KARL: Faiz, you ran for DNC Chair.

SHAKIR: Yeah, well.

KARL: You got some views on this?

SHAKIR: I'm frustrated because, you know, at this moment, you've got an opportunity to build a working-class party, Jonathan. And the way in which you do it is you show them the names and the faces of the people who are getting screwed right now. They're farmers all over this country, people on Medicaid, people who are administering 'Meals on Wheels', 'Head Start'. These are medical researchers, Grand Canyon Park Rangers, all of them right now, getting the axe. Why?

These are some of the people who serve America. They serve others beyond themselves. The Democratic Party needs to be champions for them.

BRAZILE: And farmers who voted for Trump, who are now being stiff (ph).

SHAKIR: That's right.

BRAZILE: And worried about these tariffs.

KARL: Are the party leaders right now in Congress not doing this strongly enough?

BRAZILE: They're doing as much as they can, but you know what?

(CROSSTALK)

SHAKIR: Get out (inaudible).

BRAZILE: They have leverage and they have power and they better use it.

SHAKIR: Get out and you'll (ph) see.

ISGUR: The brilliant thing the Republicans did was made the Democrats the party of the establishment, the ones having to defend the status quo. And no Americans right now, think the status quo is working. They've elected change candidates like Barack Obama, they don't feel like he changed it. Well, Donald Trump is going to change it.

PRIEBUS: I think it's worse than that. The Democrats have found themselves on the wrong side of normal. And in spite of all the challenges that Donald Trump had, court cases, all the ups -- the American people said, that's more -- I identify more with Donald Trump than I do with Kamala Harris and Tim Walz.

They're on the wrong side of all these cultural issues. And until they get that straight, and I sort of agree more with what you're saying, is that populism of the left has a chance. Progressivism on the left is dead.

SHAKIR: This is where Elon Musk will be a gift to the Democratic Party because you do have a billionaire in control who has his own ideology, his own kind of government operates at his own whims. And I think that there's going to be a populous revolt in this country. And if the Democrats can capture it, that they don't want a rule of the billionaire-class making decisions on the whim of cutting entire government agencies because they happen to investigate me. What is that kind of threshold?

KARL: But is there a danger? I mean, the idea of rooting out waste in an (ph) efficiency in government is a bipartisan thing.

BRAZILE: I mean, look, think about Bill Clinton, think about Al Gore. Think about the efforts that they did to reinvent government, but they did it in a methodical way. They did it in a way that we were able to reduce costs and bring down those numbers. They didn't do it in a whim, saying that because you have DEI, somehow or another, you're no good. You're not a good federal worker. Federal workers are at the heart of our federal government, and it's time we stand up and support them as well.

PRIEBUS: We are $36 trillion in debt.

BRAZILE: Well, they didn't do it (ph). (Inaudible).

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: And on that note, we are out time. We will continue this after the show and we'll continue again next week. Thank you all. We will be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for us today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight" and have a great day.

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END