'This Week' Transcript 2-23-25: Sen. Jack Reed, Rep. Mike Lawler and retired Gen. George Casey

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, February 23, 2025 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MARTHA RADDATZ, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Pentagon purge. In an unprecedented move, President Trump dismisses key military leaders, including the country's top-ranking officer, Joint Chiefs Chair General CQ Brown. What does it mean for the future of the U.S. Military? Former member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff Army General George Casey responds. Plus, Senator Jack Reed, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee.

War of words.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A dictator without elections. Zelenskyy better move fast or he's not going to have a country left.

RADDATZ: Trump tests his party with a pivot toward Russia.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And the world is on the line if we do anything less than defeat Vladimir Putin.

RADDATZ: But after nearly three years of war, could Trump's pressure campaign lead to real peace? We'll ask Republican Congressman Mike Lawler.

Slash and burn.

CROWD: Elon Musk has got to go.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I was really hoping to stay there for the rest of my career.

RADDATZ: As Elon Musk's DOGE ramps up firings of federal workers even further.

RADDATZ: Where does this leave you?

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Well, I mean, I'm just in the lurch.

RADDATZ: And with frustration mounting over the far-reaching cuts –

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Because we are all freaking pissed off about this.

RADDATZ: We talk with Chris Christie about the legal challenges to Trump's government purge. Plus, analysis of Trump's first month in office with the powerhouse roundtable.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Martha Raddatz.

RADDATZ: Good morning and welcome to THIS WEEK.

After just one month in office, President Trump and his allies have upended Washington. The latest move coming Saturday as Elon Musk sent out a message to all federal workers demanding they outline their weekly accomplishments by Monday night or face losing their jobs. Plenty of federal workers have already been shown the door. And in one of the most startling moves late Friday night, Trump took aim at the Pentagon in an unprecedented upheaval of senior leadership. The president and Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth, announcing the firing of two members of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, including the chairman, General CQ Brown, and four other general officers with the administration's ire over diversity efforts in the military by those leaders appearing to be at the center of it all.

The move also comes as President Trump is taking aim at Ukraine’s Volodymyr Zelenskyy. The administration holding talks with Russia, without Ukraine at the table, baselessly calling Zelenskyy a dictator.

But we begin this morning with the Friday night massacre at the Pentagon.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ (voice over): It was a Friday night Pentagon purge, a history-making gutting of general officers. President Trump ousting the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, General CQ Brown, his principal military adviser, a fighter pilot with 130 combat hours, and Navy Admiral Lisa Franchetti, the first woman to serve on the Joint Chiefs of Staff, a cancer survivor who commanded Navy carrier strike groups and U.S. Naval Forces Korea. General James Slife, the vice chief of the Air Force, who worked in special operations and has 3,100 helicopter flight hours, and the top lawyers for the Army, Navy, and Air Force, all of them with decades of experience, and all of them spending their lives in service to this country.

GENERAL CQ BROWN, FORMER JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CHAIR: It's how we develop each and every one of you to reach your full potential.

RADDATZ (voice over): CQ Brown was the first black officer to become the Air Force Chief of Staff back in 2020. And it was Donald Trump who put him there. At the time, Trump praised the milestone, writing that the “first-ever African American military service chief was a patriot and great leader.”

But Brown has become a target for the Trump administration as they seek to rid the government and the military of leaders who support diversity and equity efforts. This video Brown posted after the murder of George Floyd in 2020 drawing attention.

BROWN: And thinking about a history of racial issues and my own experiences that didn't always sing of liberty and equality. I'm thinking about my Air Force career where I was often the only African American in my squadron, or as a senior officer, the only African American in the room.

RADDATZ (voice over): Defense Secretary Pete Hegseth made clear last November, before his own nomination, Brown should be fired.

PETE HEGSETH, SECRETARY OF DEFENSE (November 7, 2024): Well, first of all, you’ve got to fire – you know, you’ve got to fire the chairman of the Joint Chiefs, and you’ve got to fire the – I mean, obviously, you’re going to bring in a new secretary of defense. But any general that was involved, general, admiral, whatever, that was involved in any of the DEI woke (EXPLETIVE DELETED) has got to go.

RADDATZ (voice over): And Hegseth questioned if Brown, who is the second black chairman of the Joint Chiefs, got the job only because of his race, writing in his most recent book, was it because of his skin color? Or his skill? We'll never know, but always doubt – which on its face seems unfair to CQ. But since he has made the race card one of his biggest calling cards, it doesn't really much matter.

Brown told me just last year he should be judged on merit.

GENERAL CQ BROWN, FORMER JOINT CHIEFS OF STAFF CHAIR (January 28, 2024): You know, I want to be judged based on my own accomplishments, based on my merits, and given an opportunity. That’s what I've asked for throughout my Air Force Career, and hopefully, you know, I'm sitting in this chair as the chairman of the Joint Chiefs because – not because I'm African American, because I'm a quality officer.

RADDATZ (voice over): At their first awkward meeting after Hegseth arrived at the Pentagon –

HEGSETH: And I'm with him right now. I look forward to working with him.

RADDATZ (voice over): Trump now nominating Brown's replacement, Lieutenant General Dan Caine, a retired three-star Air Force general, who has never served in a four-star position, and will have to be called back for active duty and would have to be given a waiver in order to take the job.

President Trump, just this week, speaking about meeting Caine, another fighter pilot, for the first time in Iraq in 2018.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: And I get down the stairs, and, what's your name? My name is Caine, sir. What's your first name? They call me Razin. I say, wait a minute, your name is Razin Caine? I love you. I’ve been looking for you for five years. You are the great – this is what I want.

RADDATZ (voice over): The shakeup comes as the Pentagon prepares to lay off 5,400 civilian workers starting next week, and aims to cut 8 percent from the military budget over each of the next five years.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: And I'm joined now by retired General George Casey, who served as a member of the Joint Chiefs of Staff under Presidents George W. Bush and Barack Obama. When Casey was chief of staff of the Army, a 41-year Army veteran, Casey also served as commander of U.S. and multinational forces in Iraq from 2004 to 2007. We spent a lot of time together back there in Iraq.

So, what happened Friday night was truly unpreceded, firing the chairman of the Joint Chiefs of Staff, another member of – of the Joint Chiefs, and several senior officers.

How concerned are you about that?

GEN. GEORGE CASEY (RET.), FORMER ARMY CHIEF OF STAFF: Martha, that’s extremely destabilizing at – at a time that’s a lot going on domestically and a lot going on abroad.

When – when you remove so many senior leaders, especially without justifying and – and giving due case, it creates huge uncertainty in the ranks. And it just isn’t a good thing for the military at a very difficult time.

RADDATZ: And – and explain the difference, General Casey. You’ve got federal workers being fired. But it’s different when you fire members of the military, who are not supposed to be political.

CASEY: Yes, let me – let me give you a quick civics lesson to explain the point about civilian control over the miliary.

When – when George Washington brought the – the constitutional convention together in Philadelphia in the summer of 1787, they were wrestling with the problem of how to create an effective standing military that wouldn’t threaten the democracy it was designed to protect. And of those – the 39 signers of that Constitution, 22 were veterans of the Revolutionary War. And they established the principle of putting the control over the military in the hands of the elected civilian leaders of the judicial branch – I'm sorry, of the legislative branch and of the executive branch. And the military has accepted that for 236 years.

RADDATZ: Pete Hegseth implied that General Brown was a DEI hire. He made no secret that he wanted to fire General Brown. And at the heart of that seems to be DEI. And – and General Brown, as you just saw, had – had made those videos about his own experiences with racism after the joint – George Floyd murder.

Do you think DEI is the reason these men and women were fired?

CASEY: I – I can only go with – with what the people – what the administration has said. And that seems to be the prominent reason that has been put forward. And that’s a problem for me because these leaders were following the lawful directives of the civilian leaders of the past administration. And now we’re going to put leaders in jeopardy and punish them for following lawful orders from another administration. I mean, give me a break.

RADDATZ: And right now, in fact, these first -- this first month, under President Trump, they got rid of those DEI programs so they were, in a sense, following the orders of -- of this administration.

CASEY: The administration has complete control over the directives and policies that the department follows. So, they could change the policy. They don’t need to change the people.

RADDATZ: Let -- let me read you something from one of the men who was fired, General James Slife, who -- who is the vice chief of the Air Force. He said: The president and secretary of defense deserve to have generals they trust and the force deserves to have generals who have credibility with our elected appointed officials.

While I'm disappointed to leave under these circumstances, I wouldn’t want the outcome to be any different.”

So, why shouldn’t the president be able to choose the people he wants?

CASEY: He -- he should. In fact -- in fact, I may disagree with the timing and everything of these -- of these removals, but it’s purely -- it is significantly within the president’s prerogative. That’s his -- that’s his prerogative. He is the commander in chief of the armed forces. And we follow the directives of the -- our civilian leaders.

RADDATZ: It -- but you’re saying, shouldn’t have done it that way or there should be cause, or the people -- or he does not understand?

CASEY: It should be better explained. It should be better explained. And -- and again, I honestly don’t think it was necessary because if they want to change the direction, they can change the policies and not the people.

RADDATZ: Do you have any concerns about President Trump’s choice to replace Brown? I -- I want to read something from former chief of staff -- or former Joint Chiefs Chairman General Marty Dempsey. He wrote last November that if these generals were fired, it would call into question the credentials and qualifications of the new officers appointed to take their place.

Lieutenant General Dan Caine, a three-star, not a four-star, coming back from retirement. Do you have concerns that he may be too political?

CASEY: Honestly, it’s not for me to say. I don’t sit in judgment over the people who are going to be appointed by our civilian leaders. I think that’s something that the Senate Armed Services Committee will take up as they provide their advice and consent on that nomination.

RADDATZ: And just, finally, General Casey, talk about what this does to the morale of the younger officers, or the younger enlisted folks?

CASEY: Yes, it -- as I said, it creates uncertainty in the ranks. And I've talked to a few people over the last couple of days and, you know, can you -- can you imagine if you’re a -- a young officer and you’re looking up and saying, why did these people get removed? Because you don’t want to do what they did. And so, you’re trying to figure that out. And it just creates a lot of turbulence and uncertainty.

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks so much, General Casey. It’s good to see you again.

Now to the war in Ukraine. Tomorrow will mark three years since the war began. I was there that night when Russia invaded that sovereign country, unprovoked, under orders from Vladimir Putin. But now, a seismic shift in U.S. policy is playing out. The Trump administration mocking Ukraine's president while putting its trust in Putin to make a peace deal.

ABC's Ian Pannell, who has covered this war from the beginning, is back in Ukraine this morning with the latest.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

IAN PANNELL, ABC NEWS CHIEF FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): This week, nearly three years to the day since Russia's brutal invasion, relations between the U.S. and Ukraine dramatically deteriorating.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: A dictator without elections, Zelenskyy better move fast or he's not going to have a country left.

PANNELL: President Donald Trump repeatedly attacking Ukrainian President Zelenskyy, falsely calling him a dictator, drawing widespread criticism, even a rebuke from the conservative "New York Post".

TRUMP: President Zelenskyy talked the United States of America into spending $350 billion to go into a war that basically couldn't be won.

PANNELL: Using false numbers for how much the U.S. has spent, baselessly blaming Ukraine for starting the war.

TRUMP: He should have ended it three years -- you should have never started it.

PANNELL: It's a remarkable change in tune from when the war began.

RADDATZ: A senior Pentagon official who several hours ago texted me and said, you are likely in the last few hours of peace on the European continent for a long time to come.

PANNELL: Vladimir Putin launching an all-out assault on the capital city of Kyiv, with intelligence at the time suggesting Zelenskyy's government would fall within days, but with unified support from across the aisle in the U.S. --

JOE BIDEN, FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT: The United States, together with our allies and partners in Europe, will support the Ukrainian people.

PANNELL: Ukraine shocked the world, holding strong in the face of Russia's aggression, but as the war dragged on, the death, destruction, and displacement mounted.

The brutality of Russia’s attack soon became clear. In Bucha, just 30 miles from Ukraine's capital, mass graves of hundreds of civilians slaughtered and buried. Devastating incursions in the East, displacing millions of people.

Despite the stiff cost of the war, Democratic Party support in the United States unwavering, but frustrations grew among some Republicans.

J.D. VANCE, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES (September 2024): I don’t appreciate Zelenskyy coming to this country and telling the American taxpayers what they ought to do. He ought to say thank you to the American taxpayers.

PANNELL (voice over): He did say thank you, but it didn't matter. Donald Trump’s new administration upending nearly a century of U.S. foreign policy.

DONALD TRUMP, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: We're successfully negotiating an end to the war with Russia.

PANNELL (voice over): With Secretary of Defense Pete Hegseth dismissing Ukrainian hopes for any significant wins in negotiations with Russia –

HEGSETH: Returning to Ukraine's pre-2014 borders is an unrealistic objective.

PANNELL (voice over): Secretary of State Marco Rubio speaking this week after initial talks between U.S. and Russian delegations in Saudi Arabia with Ukraine not even at the table.

MARCO RUBIO, SECRETARY OF STATE: It’s not that we don't care about Ukraine. But Ukraine is on another continent. We care about it because it has implications for our allies and ultimately for the world.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

PANNELL (on camera): Martha, Ukraine has sent its version of this deal back to the White House with far more realistic numbers. But unless they get meaningful security guarantees that Russia isn't going to invade for a third time, it's hard to see how this war ends.

Martha.

RADDATZ: Our thanks to Ian.

I’m joined now by Senator Jack Reed, the top Democrat on the Armed Services Committee.

Good to see you this morning, Senator Reed.

I’m going to turn to Ukraine in a moment, but I want to get first your reaction to the firing of CQ Brown and the others.

SEN. JACK REED, (D) RHODE ISLAND & RANKING MEMBER, ARMED SERVICES COMMITTEE: Well, it was completely unjustified. These men and women were superb professionals. They were committed to their oath to defend the Constitution of the United States.

And apparently, what Trump and Hegseth are trying to do is to politicize the Department of Defense. And it's not surprising. They put Kash Patel as the FBI director, who is a partisan, who has no, I think, respect for the traditions of neutrality of the FBI.

And now, they've turned to DOD. And they want everyone in DOD to be holding to the president, not to the Constitution. They want everyone there to do what they’re told, regardless of the law.

What was also startling in – over the weekend was firing all the advocate generals of the military. If you're going to break the law, the first thing you do is you get rid of the lawyers.

So, we're looking at a very dangerous undermining of the values of our military and the repercussions are being felt already. People questioning whether they should stay. Talented leaders wondering if they should get out.

It is – it's the beginning of a very, very serious degradation of the military, and politicization of the military.

RADDATZ: You say that. Do you have confidence in Lieutenant General Dan Caine, who the president has chosen to replace CQ Brown?

REED: I do not know General Caine. He will be subject, as the case, to careful review by the committee. There are obviously a great many questions that we're going to raise with him, but I think we have to give him the opportunity to make his case and also to make clear that he is going to be willing to speak truth to power, willing to give his best military advice to the president, not just tell the president what he wants to hear.

And also to be open and share with the Congress the facts on the ground, not be a political spokesperson for the president. So, those are part of the issues that we'll address as we go forward.

RADDATZ: OK, let – I want to turn back to Ukraine. Quite a remarkable week. You heard President Trump's personal attacks on President Zelenskyy, who's been fighting for his country for three years. What is your reaction to what you've heard this week and the kind of rhetoric you've heard?

REED: Well, I – essentially, this is President Trump surrendering to the Russians. No surprise. In Afghanistan, he sat down with the Taliban, excluded the government of Afghanistan, in Doha, through his embassies, and they essentially said, listen, don't bother us for a year and we'll be out.

And now he's trying the same thing, which is, basically, we're going to undercut the Ukrainians. Oh, and by the way, we're going to get their precious minerals at the bargain rate prices as a threat to do even worse.

This is not a statesman or a diplomat. This is just someone who admires Putin, does not believe in the struggle of the Ukrainians and is committed to cozying up to an autocrat. And that, I think, is going to be wrong because Putin will not stop in Ukraine. He will begin in a campaign, both clandestine and in many cases overt, to undermine the other governmentsin Eastern Europe and it'll create chaos. Again, the Trump --

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: But could this be a negotiating tactic? Could this just be a negotiating tactic to bring Ukraine to the table, to make sure that there is something to move the ball here?

REED: Well, I'd be more confident in that suggestion if there was a vigorous dialogue between the Ukrainians and the United States with respect to these negotiations, that we understood where their lines are, et cetera. That apparently has not happened.

I think he -- Trump's discussions with Zelenskyy amount to public statements which are generally misleading or completely false there's no real intention to engage the Ukrainian government to find out what they need, what they have to do to defend themselves and the European order post-World War II. So without that, this is just, you know, Putin and Trump getting together through emissaries to --

RADDATZ: Senator, when you look back over these past three years, though, they are still at war. So isolating Vladimir Putin doesn't appear to have worked either. So what is the solution here?

REED: Well, the first solution is to communicate to the Russians that we will be very, very serious about their actions in Ukraine. It would mean to tighten the sanctions. What Trump has done is apparently he's taken apart the division in the FBI that is responsible for sanctions enforcement and against the Russian oligarchs. So that's another indication of wink, wink, you'll be OK, Vladimir.

What we have to do is keep the pressure on, and then go into negotiations, negotiations that will include the Ukrainians, not exclude them. And then with this pressure, hopefully, Putin will decide that the cost is too great to continue this effort. That's -- it's a tough, tough road to hoe, but it's a better one than conceding and watching the destruction of Ukraine.

And my sense is that the recriminations by the Russians against Ukrainians after this settlement if it happens will be dire indeed, that they will deliberately hunt down and destroy everyone they think is a -- was an opponent of them.

RADDATZ: OK.

REED: And we will bear that -- we will bear that on our conscience.

RADDATZ: OK. Thank you for joining us this morning, Senator Reed. I always appreciate your time.

Coming up, Republican Mike Lawler is calling Vladimir Putin a vile dictator and thug. So what does he make of President Trump's pivot towards Russia?

We're back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

RADDATZ: We are back. And I'm joined now by Republican Congressman Make Lawler of New York, a member of the Foreign Affairs Committee.

Good to see you this morning, Congressman.

I'm going to start with domestic affairs. I want to know your reaction to Elon Musk basically sending out orders to federal workers to lift their accomplishments by Monday night or be fired basically.

REP. MIKE LAWLER, (R) NEW YORK & FOREIGN AFFAIRS COMMITTEE: Look, I don’t know how that’s necessarily feasible. Obviously, a lot of federal employees are under union contract.

But there’s no question, as the Department of Government Efficiency moves ahead, what they are seeking to do is ensure that every agency and department is effectively and efficiently doing their job. With seven -- a $7 trillion budget, there is no question that our government has become bloated and, in many respects, inefficient. And so the task at hand, obviously, for Elon Musk and the Department of Government Efficiency, at the direction of President Trump, is to find efficiencies and savings, and make sure that our federal workforce is doing their jobs and doing it effectively.

We have many, many, many people who do a phenomenal job on behalf of the American people. But I think, ultimately, in any government, when a new administration comes in, whether it’s a state government, whether it’s a local government -- and I've served at every level of government -- you know, a new administration is always going to do a review and try to find efficiencies across the board.

When you’re staring down $36 trillion in debt and counting, you know, obviously, something has to -- has to give. And I think that’s what we’re seeing right now, a comprehensive forensic audit of every department and agency in the federal government.

RADDATZ: Well, let’s talk about -- to -- talk about one of those cuts, several of those cuts, and they came at the Pentagon. What is your reaction to the firing of the chairman of the Joint Chiefs and five senior officers there? An unprecedented move which looks like it’s about DEI.

LAWLER: I don’t know that it’s about DEI. President Trump has one of the more diverse administrations we have seen. The first female chief of staff in the history of the United States. You know, south Asian FBI director. A Latino secretary of state. A Latina secretary of labor.

(CROSSTALK)

RADDATZ: But we’ve also heard President -- heard -- Pete Hegseth certainly made it sound that way.

LAWLER: You know, numerous women serving in the administration. So -- well, but, bottom line here to me is the Department of Defense needed a complete overhaul. President Trump ran on that. He said he was going to provide the Department of Defense into overhaul.

We are in the most precarious place since the lead-up to World War II, Martha, in large part because of the disastrous foreign policy of the Biden administration, including decisions made at the highest levels of the Pentagon, starting with that disastrous withdrawal in Afghanistan.

So, the idea that there wouldn’t be changes at the Pentagon, that they would somehow be exempt from changes in leadership with a new administration and a new foreign policy and a Defense Department that is focused on military readiness above all other considerations, I don’t know why anybody’s surprised by changes at the upper echelon of the Defense Department. They’re not exempt from failure or the need for a change in direction.

RADDATZ: Let -- let’s -- let’s go to foreign affairs and let’s go to Ukraine and let’s go to policy there. You made it very clear that you believe Vladimir Putin is a dictator. You’ve heard what President Trump has said about Volodymyr Zelenskyy, who is not a dictator, but he called him a dictator.

Your reaction to what you’ve heard from the Trump administration about Ukraine and leaving Ukraine out of those initial talks with Russia.

LAWLER: Well, first, I will reiterate, Vladimir Putin is a vile dictator and thug, and he is clearly responsible for the war in Ukraine. Russia, China and Iran have been working in a coordinated effort to undermine and destabilize the United States, Europe, Israel and the free world. They are not our allies or our friends. And we must be clear-eyed about that.

In addition, with respect to Ukraine, when Ukraine gave up its nuclear weapons, we entered into a treaty. That is part of the reason that we are defending them and supporting them after this unprovoked invasion by Russia. And the consequences of failure here would be catastrophic for Europe, especially Eastern Europe and former Soviet satellite states, like Moldova, where my wife is actually from. So, we have to be clear-eyed about the situation.

Now, with that being said, let's also be honest about what has happened. President Trump's administration has been in touch with President Zelenskyy. President Zelenskyy met with the vice president, the secretary of state, defense and treasury, as well as the special envoy, all within the last week. He also spoke to President Trump directly.

The Russians have not had direct conversations with the United States since the invasion because Joe Biden refused to speak with Vladimir Putin. It is hard to enter into a negotiated settlement respect --

RADDATZ: Congressman, I -- I don't -- I don't mean to interrupt you here.

LAWLER: But, respectfully, let me finish my point.

RADDATZ: We -- we just have a few -- yes, OK. OK.

LAWLER: It is hard to enter into a negotiated settlement without engaging both sides. A final deal absolutely requires both sides to be at the table. But the idea that you wouldn't sit down with the Russians to at least have an initial conversation, obviously, that would be problematic. You have to be able to engage both sides.

RADDATZ: Just very quickly, if you will, we have only a few seconds. Are you disturbed at all by the rhetoric coming from the Trump administration about Zelenskyy?

LAWLER: I did not agree with the president's rhetoric about Volodymyr Zelenskyy. What I would say is this, it is not -- it does not behoove either side to have this public back and forth. I think President Zelenskyy needs to work with the administration, especially with respect to economic cooperation. The United States has invested hundreds of billions of dollars to support Ukraine.

And when this war is finally over, Ukraine is going to need significant investment to rebuild. President Trump is the president of the United States. Volodymyr Zelenskyy needs President Trump in order to end this war. So, it does not behoove this public back and forth.

I have been very clear in my support for Ukraine, but this kind of, you know, back and forth, saying that the president is falling for Russian disinformation, does not help his cause for sure.

RADDATZ: OK, thanks very much for joining us this morning, Congressman. Appreciate it.

Up next, we speak with three federal workers who abruptly lost their jobs this week. That conversation when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are all freaking pissed off about this. You're going to hear it and feel it.

REP. RICH MCCORMICK (R-GA): But by and large, the president has great purview over where a lot of this money goes. Now some of this is going to be litigated.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I would like to know, rather the people would like to know, what you, Congressman, and your fellow congressmen are going to do to rein in the megalomaniac in the White House.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

RADDATZ: Constituents in Georgia grilling Republican Congressman Rich McCormick Thursday night over President Trump, Elon Musk, and the Department of Government Efficiency's slashing of the federal workforce. The Trump administration has abruptly fired thousands of workers across more than a dozen agencies in the last few weeks. We sat down with three of them this week.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

ELIZABETH BRANDT, FORMER ENVIRONMENTAL PROTECTION AGENCY EMPLOYEE: I'm Elizabeth Brandt, and I worked on climate adaptation at the Environmental Protection Agency.

MARIE DECIUS, FORMER HEALTH RESOURCES & SERVICES ADMIN. EMPLOYEE: I'm Maria Decius. I was a management analyst as a liaison between the division of business operations and the NPDB, the National Practitioner Data Bank.

EMMA PLACE, FORMER FEDERAL AVIATION ADMIN. EMPLOYEE: And my name is Emma, and I was an economist at the Federal Aviation Administration.

RADDATZ (voice over): Twenty-seven-year-old Emma Place had long dreamed of working for the FAA.

PLACE: Ever since I was a child, I loved the idea of airports and aviation. And I was in graduate school for public policy and I concentrated in transportation policy. And so the only place I looked at was the FAA. So, it was truly a dream to get it. And I was really hoping to stay there for the rest of my career.

RADDATZ (voice over): But Emma was one of several hundred probationary workers suddenly fired from the agency.

PLACE: I never actually got my termination email. My system access was shut off before I got it. So, all weekend, you know, I didn't have the information I needed to apply for unemployment insurance benefits.

RADDATZ (voice over): Marie Decius is a former Army combat medic, and single mother of three. She spent her savings to move her family to D.C. from Florida in October to start her job at the Health Resources and Services Administration. Her division served as a watchdog that tracks medical malpractice.

RADDATZ: You liked your job?

DECIUS: I love my job. I love getting up every day and knowing I will do something – just something that make a difference in somebody's life.

RADDATZ (voice over): Elizabeth Brandt, a mother of two, was inspired to work for the EPA after growing up near a toxic waste site in Washington state that the agency helped clean up.

BRANDT: That was important to me. It was important to me to be able to give back in this way, to an agency that's meant so much for the health of my family.

RADDATZ (voice over): All three let go with a similar email, blaming their firings on inadequate performance.

BRANDT: That is a lie. I have an excellent performance review. And that hurts. You know, I've never been treated that way in any job. And I wouldn't want that for any of my fellow Americans.

PLACE: I wasn't there long enough to have an official performance review.

RADDATZ (voice over): A frustrating experience that they wish had been handled differently.

RADDATZ: Do you believe fundamentally that the federal government could be reduced, could be cut, needed to be in some ways?

PLACE: I think it's fair to look into that, but if you do decide to look into that, I don't think arbitrary firings is the way to do that.

DECIUS: I mean, it's OK to make changes. It's the way the changes are being made.

RADDATZ: Is it painful for you to hear or see on X or Twitter –

BRANDT: Right.

RADDATZ: What people are saying?

BRANDT: You know, I've had a lot of jobs, and I've certainly never lost a job with this kind of notice, right? I mean I've even been an office temp and had more notice than this.

I serve at the will of the government. If they – if the people don't want me to be there, that's OK. I understand that. It should be done with more dignity than this. That's all I ask for.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

RADDATZ: And for more on the legal fallout from the Trump administration's federal cutbacks, I'm joined now by former New Jersey governor and U.S. attorney, Chris Christie.

Good morning, Chris.

I want to start with what Elon Musk did on Saturday, which is order all federal employees to list their accomplishments or basically be fired. Can he do that?

CHRIS CHRISTIE, (R) FORMER NEW JERSEY GOVERNOR & ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, no, he can't.

Let's look at it a few ways, Martha. First is from a legal perspective. You have a situation where it is a complete overstep for him to be asking people, what did you do in the last week, and then use that as a basis to evaluate whether someone should be retained or fired.

You know, as with everybody's employment, things vary from week to week, and I think that if that went to court with an employee who was fired, if Mr. Musk and his minions didn't find what they did in the last week acceptable, there would be very little, if any, legal basis for them to be able to prevail, meaning the government.

But secondly, as a former governor, too, from a management perspective, you can see what a clown car this is right now. Because you've got for instance, FBI Director Kash Patel, appropriately emailing his people in response saying, don't answer it. Don't answer the questionnaire. Any review process will be done internally by the FBI.

Same thing from the National Security Agency. Same thing from the acting U.S. attorney in the District of Columbia.

So, you know, you have people, you know, doing this, you know? Pointing in each direction. You do this, you do that.

It shows that again, this type of idea of Musk coming in there with the chainsaw that he was famously brandishing at a political event in Washington, D.C. this week, it's a lot more complicated than that. Running government is a lot more complicated than that, and hopefully they get their act together at some point.

RADDATZ: But, Chris, the Trump administration has had some wins in these legal battles. In fact, a federal judge agreed that they can now put thousands of USAID employees on leave.

So, any surprise there? And take a look at all the wins they have had.

CHRISTIE: No, Martha, look. I think that the -- if you follow an organized process, the executive will have a lot of authority to be able to lay people off, reorder priorities within the government as a whole, and within particular departments as well at USAID as an agency, and working very closely with the State Department.

So, it's not that they can't do it. It’s just you can't do it in this haphazard way, where you have one guy, Elon Musk, and his DOGE area, which isn’t really even a department of the government, sending emails out, and then you have the people the president has appointed and in some instances like Kash Patel instance are Senate confirmed people, saying, no, disregard that.

That's where the person at the top has to give appropriate direction, and that has not come from the president of the United States at this point. He's giving different opinions to different folks, giving different direction. It leads to this type of thing, and that's where they're going to get in trouble in court if people sue because there's no process for these folks to be dealt with fairly and appropriately like any employee in the public sector or the private sector needs to be dealt with.

RADDATZ: Okay, Chris, we have lots more to discuss. We'll stay on this in the weeks to come. Thanks for joining us.

The roundtable is up next. We're back in a moment.

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RADDATZ: The Roundtable is ahead with analysis of President Trump's first month in office. We'll be right back.

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RADDATZ: And the Roundtable is all here. Former DNC Chair, Donna Brazile, Former RNC Chair and Trump White House Chief of Staff, Reince Priebus, ABC News Contributing Political Correspondent & Politico Capitol Bureau Chief, Rachael Bade. And we welcome Wall Street Journal National Security Correspondent, Nancy Youssef. Great to see all of you.

And Rachael, I -- I do want to start with you. This -- this pretty incredible month we've -- we've been looking at here, Trump really wielding his power, but we saw a couple of videos over the week of pushback in those town halls. Now, whether they were Democrats, we -- we don't really know who they were, but what -- what's your take on this month?

RACHAEL BADE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTING POLITICAL CORRESPONDENT & POLITICO CAPITOL BUREAU CHIEF AND SENIOR WASHINGTON COLUMNIST: Yes, I mean, look, I -- it feels like obviously, for the whole month, you know, Donald Trump is doing exactly what he said he was going to do. He is doing it very quickly, so much that even reporters have trouble keeping up.

(LAUGH)

BADE: But yeah, this week, it feels like the narrative in the media and with Democrats sort of seem to change in that people said, OK, he's going too far. We're starting to see some polling saying that folks are maybe not comfortable with these DOGE cuts, people showing up at town halls. But look, I got to say, you know, I kind of disagree a little bit with some of the analysis we're seeing in our industry.

I mean, the -- the reality is the federal bureaucracy is -- is huge. And it's hard for me to see voters seeing all these cuts. And yes, they are seeing the chaos and that could very much hurt Republicans and hurt Donald Trump, but that they're going to turn against the party based on something that doesn't necessarily affect them yet.

Now whether Elon Musk crosses a line and starts going after benefits, starts upending, you know, the postal service, so people are not getting their mail, their tax returns are delayed, that's a totally different thing. But we're not there yet. And I'm not convinced that thesetown halls are, you know, what we saw in 2017 or 2018 when Democrats came up and said, we want to keep Obamacare, we're going to come after Republicans and we're going to flip the House for you.

RADDATZ: But, Reince, one of the things that people are saying, and look, people look at the federal government and say, surely there are cuts that have to be made, but you heard those federal workers. It's not that the cuts are being made. It's how they're being made according to a lot of federal workers.

REINCE PRIEBUS, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: I mean, they had their offers. I mean, they could take an offer and get paid through the end of the year. Some of them look that offer, but I think what this is really about, Ronald Reagan had a famous quote that said either you're going to control the government or the government is going to control you.

I think all these markers right now, DOGE, the president, some of the provocative tweets, what he's doing is he's saying to the country and to all these federal -- this bureaucracy is I'm in control. I'm going to shock you by continuing to show you that I'm in control. Same thing with the Elon tweet yesterday, hey, tell me who you're -- what you did last week. That's all about putting down a marker that we are going to deflate this bloated monstrosity as long as we are $36 trillion in debt.

Another good Reagan quote, the status quo is another term for the mess we're in, and that is what the American people elected, and I agree with Rachael. The general public out there doesn't have a lot of sympathy right now for a few thousand people out of this monstrosity losing a job. I'm sorry.

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR: Well, I beg to differ. I think the federal government serves a very important purpose, and no one disputes the fact that there may be some bloat -- some duplicative services and perhaps some waste, but at the same time, there's a process. When Al Gore and Bill Clinton went about reinventing government, it took place over a period of years, not weeks or days. It was methodical and involved federal employees in the room, part of a conversation.

What's happening now is not a scalpel or a book-by-book review. It's just slashing for the sake of saying, if you are a DEI person, we're going to get rid of you. If you are a foreign aid worker, we're going to get rid of you, without understanding the consequences to the rural farmers, to the thousands of federal contractors. This is going to have an unintended effect on our economy.

RADDATZ: And Nancy, next up, the Pentagon. And that also should not be a surprise. Look, Donald Trump has said all along they got to change the Pentagon. Pete Hegseth has said it as well. And boy, are they doing that.

NANCY YOUSSEF, WALL STREET JOURNAL NATIONAL SECURITY CORRESPONDENT: They are. You're right in the sense that we heard about this. The secretary of defense certainly telegraphed this in his book and public comments. We heard it from the president as well. I think the challenge is we didn't hear from them the reasons behind it, and so for the force that isn't getting the clear explanation why, and the suggestion that this is around issues about race and gender, destabilizes a force where if you believe it should be a force that is made up of the population as we see it, that includes women or minorities for the first 20 percent women, 30 percent minority.

And so it was an unsettling delivery if you will, and the fact that we don't have these firings based on cause or any indication that they didn't follow the president's orders, I think introduce this idea that future leaders will be in place not just because of their military qualifications, but perhaps for their political slant as the president sees it.

RADDATZ: And Rachael, I want to move quickly to what this week also showed us. Kash Patel is in. He basically -- Trump has gotten in all his nominees. I mean, Matt Gaetz dropped out, but even the real controversial ones, he has gotten in.

BADE: Yes, it's interesting to me because it seems like Senate Republicans were sort of building up some political capital with Donald Trump and sort of getting his nominations confirmed, even the controversial ones as you mentioned, that perhaps, you know, privately they weren't super comfortable with. The question I have sort of wondered is, are they going to try to cash in on that political capital?

And so far we haven't seen it and you guys were just talking about these defense cuts. I mean, if there is one thing, you know, Senate Republicans, at least most of them, want to protect, it's the budget of the Pentagon, where they actually want to see more money, and yet it's crickets up there which I think really speaks to --

RADDATZ: And is MAGA kind of going after -- you wrote this week about MAGA going after the defense hawks.

BADE: Absolutely. It's not just that they're not sort of standing up for what they want. It's that, you know, the White House, Vice President JD Vance going after folks like Tom Cotton who is the leader of the Senate Intelligence Committee chair. He's a Donald Trump ally, and he put up, you know, objections to this policy nomination at the Pentagon who said it wasn't a big deal if Iran got a nuke and obviously, that's a concern for Tom Cotton, and yet he was trolled by the vice president to make a point. So, it's just a really interesting dynamic. They -- they confirmed all these nominations and they didn't use them to try to get what they wanted.

RADDATZ: And Donna, the Democrats meanwhile are attacking Trump over Ukraine, and what has been done there. You've -- you've seen that throughout the show.

BRAZILE: The Democrats must use their voice, they must use their political leverage, whatever political capital they have from the voters, out there to not just try to stop some of these draconian cuts that will likely come as a result of Donald Trump wants his tax cuts. And how will he achieve that? By cutting the social safety net, by cutting the Pell Grant, by cutting people on Medicaid, by cutting access to education. Democrats will have to speak up, do much more, and rely on AGs and governors and others to be on the frontlines.

RADDATZ: Will they get their voices heard out there, Reince?

PRIEBUS: Well, first of all, I think it's important to remember, what they're talking about in the Defense Department is increasing the budget to unprecedented levels when it comes to war fighting initiatives, and the cuts are going to come in on some of these other programs. But I do agree with Rachael that politics will hit, will -- will come to roost here.

I mean, because when you're running for Congress and you say, I want to protect these 2,500 jobs here that are making X, Y, and Z equipment, all of a sudden, now that's when the politics come into play. So although you might think there's crickets now, obviously I think there's going to be a negotiation, but we can't sit here and whistle past the graveyard and make believe that a few thousand federal employees that are -- that are losing their jobs is somehow something that is -- it's sacrosanct. It's not, we cannot --

BRAZILE: They are scientists, they are doctors.

(CROSSTALK)

PRIEBUS: We are going down the road of Europe and we know that debt -- the debt is important. I think what the Trump administration is saying is, I won the election. I'm going to pick my generals. I'm going to put my people in charge and I'm going to cut these monstrosities (ph).

RADDATZ: OK. I'll -- I -- we got about 30 seconds, Nancy and I just want to add. He (ph) talked about elections, the German elections today.

YOUSSEF: Well, it's fascinating because we've seen the administration interfere in the -- in those elections in terms of speaking about AfD, which is now in second place.

RADDATZ: Right wing.

YOUSSEF: That's right.

RADDATZ: Very right wing.

YOUSSEF: And that was sort of unusual, not sort of, really unusual for that to happen. So, this will be the election to watch because it'll tell us the direction of Europe and the impact that the U.S. comments had on European election.

RADDATZ: Great to have you here. We'll be right back.

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RADDATZ: That's all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us and have a great day.

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