'This Week' Transcript 9-1-24: Sen. Lindsey Graham, Gov. Jared Polis and Melissa Ludtke

A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday, September 1, 2024 on ABC News is below. This copy may not be in its final form, may be updated and may contain minor transcription errors. For previous show transcripts, visit the "This Week" transcript archive.

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK WITH GEORGE STEPHANOPOULOS starts right now.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

JONATHAN KARL, ABC "THIS WEEK" CO-ANCHOR: Breaking overnight, Israel recovers the bodies of six hostages in Gaza, including Israeli American Hersh Goldberg-Polin. The latest this morning with Britt Clennett in Tel Aviv.

Campaign rush.

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: This is going to be a tight race until the very end.

KARL: With less than ten days until their first debate, Harris sits for her first interview as the Democratic nominee.

HARRIS: Let's be clear, my values have not changed.

KARL: As Trump tries to fire up his base.

DONALD TRUMP (R), FORMER U.S. PRESIDENT AND 2024 PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: And we will bring back the American dream, bigger, better, and stronger than ever before.

KARL: This morning, our new ABC/Ipsos poll shows a virtually tied race. Trump ally Senator Lindsey Graham and Colorado's Democratic governor, Jared Polis, join us. Plus, analysis from the roundtable.

Barrier breaker.

MELISSA LUDTKE, FORMER SPORTS ILLUSTRATED BASEBALL REPORTER & AUTHOR, 'LOCKER ROOM TALK: A WOMAN'S STRUGGLE TO GET INSIDE': They were just so frightened if they let one woman in that door, in the door of baseball, that that was going to be the end of the boys' club.

KARL: My conversation with journalist Melissa Ludtke on the landmark case that opened locker room doors for female sports reporters.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

ANNOUNCER: From ABC News it’s THIS WEEK. Here now, Jonathan Karl.

KARL: Good morning. Welcome to THIS WEEK.

We'll have the latest developments on the race for the White House this morning, but we begin with the heartbreaking news overnight from the Middle East. The Israeli Defense Forces reported they have recovered the bodies of six more hostages from Gaza, including Israeli American Hersh Goldberg-Polin, whose parents had been outspoken in pushing for a ceasefire to bring the hostages home. President Biden reacted in a statement overnight saying he was, quote, “devastated and outraged by the news.”

ABC's Britt Clennett has the latest from Tel Aviv.

Good morning, Britt.

BRITT CLENNETT, ABC NEWS FOREIGN CORRESPONDENT: Hi, Jon.

Yes, heartbreak, as you say, for the family of Israeli hostage Hersh Goldberg-Polin. The IDF announcing they found his body yesterday along with five others in a tunnel in southern Gaza.

(BEGIN VIDEOTAPE)

CLENNETT (voice over): Israel confirming the deaths of six more hostages in Gaza, including Israeli American Hersh Goldberg-Polin. The other five, Alexander Lobanov, Almog Sarusi, Carmel Gat, Eden Yerushalmi, and Ori Danino.

IDF Spokesperson Daniel Hagari saying the hostages were killed a short while before we reached them, recovered from tunnels under Rafah, where another hostage, Farhan al-Qadi, was rescued alive earlier in the week. Twenty-three-year-old Hersh, seen here alive on April 24th in this proof of life video released by Hamas.

President Biden expressing his sorrow over Hersh's death in a statement saying he is devastated and outraged, saying he's grieving with Hersh's parents, Rachel and Jonathan, who were on stage at the DNC, emotional, as the crowd chanted "bring them home."

CROWD: Bring them home. Bring them home. Bring them home. Bring them home.

JONATHAN POLIN, FATHER OF HERSH GOLDBERG-POLIN: This is a political convention. But needing our only son and all of the cherished hostages home is not a political issue. It is – it is a humanitarian issue.

CLENNETT (voice over): Speaking to us in Jerusalem in July, Rachel and Jonathan saying time is running out.

RACHEL GOLDBERG-POLIN, MOTHER OF HERSH GOLDBERG-POLIN: I think something that's lost in this is the urgency. We know that many of the hostages have died in captivity.

CLENNETT (voice over): The Hostage Families Forum releasing a statement blaming delays, sabotage, and excuses, writing, “it's time to bring our hostages home.”

Israeli Prime Minister Benjamin Netanyahu, this morning, saying those who kill abductees do not want a deal. We will not let up.

(END VIDEOTAPE)

CLENNETT (on camera): Hostage families demanding Netanyahu be accountable for the deaths and take responsibility for their abandonment. And a security official telling ABC News this morning that three of those hostages, including Hersh, were on a draft proposal to be released in the first phase of the ceasefire.

KARL: And, Britt, where do the ceasefire talks stand now after all this?

CLENNETT: Well, President Biden, overnight, said he thinks we are on a verge of having an agreement. But that optimism, it just isn't reflected on the ground. Now while the U.S., Egypt, and Qatar are very keen to keep discussions alive, there has been no breakthrough. That's the reality. Earlier this week, Israel's war cabinet determined that the IDF would remain in the Philadelphi Corridor, which we know is one of Hamas’ red lines. So, the idea that there would be still an Israeli presence at the Egypt/Gaza border, it remains a huge sticking point.

Jon.

KARL: We’re now less than 10 days away from seeing Donald Trump and Kamala Harris on the stage for the very first time. The ABC News presidential debate in Philadelphia is, of course, on September 10th.

So, let’s bring in one of Trump’s biggest supporters, Senator Lindsey Graham of South Carolina.

And, Senator Graham, before we get to the campaign, I want to ask you about the devastating news overnight out of Israel.

I know that you have been a big advocate for the hostages, and you got to know, Senator, you got to know the parents of Hersh quite well.

SEN. LINDSEY GRAHAM, (R) SOUTH CAROLINA: Yes. Yes.

KARL: You’re – what’s your reaction of this heartbreaking news?

GRAHAM: Heartbroken.

KARL: Yes.

GRAHAM: Devastated. Mad. Jon and Rachel have done everything in their power to – to help their son be released from captivity. After 11 months of captivity he was murdered by Hamas. Hamas could care less about the hostages or the Palestinians. And if you want the hostages home, which we all do, you have to increase the cost to Iran. Iran is the great Satan here. Hamas is the junior partner. They’re barbaric, religious nazi’s, Hamas. They could care less about the Palestinian people.

I would urge the Biden administration and Israel to hold Iran accountable for the fate of remaining hostages and put on the target list oil refineries in Iran if the hostages are not released.

KARL: We heard from the White House overnight, a statement from President Biden, saying that Hamas leaders will pay for these crimes. That was what the president said.

GRAHAM: What are they going to pay? I mean, what’s the price? I mean, they destroyed a lot of Gaza. They put their own people in harm’s way. The – Hamas could care less about – about the Palestinian people.

Mr. President, Bibi, if you want to really change things when it comes to the hostages, tell the Ayatollah what he values is on the target list. Until that happens, nobody’s coming home.

KARL: All right, Senator Graham, I'm going to turn to the campaign.

You have said that –

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: That Donald Trump is poised, can win this race if he stays focused on the contrast between his record and the Biden-Harris record, if he focuses on the issue. So, let me ask you the flip side of that, how could he lose this campaign?

GRAHAM: I think the way that they’re running the campaign is to draw him into insult debates, get off script, get off the issues. This poll, to me, is very encouraging.

Now, in a head-to-head race, Trump is losing slightly. But on the issues, Trump economy plus eight, inflation plus eight, border plus nine. My God, that’s a blowout.

Focus on the issues, Mr. President. Every poll says that -- says the same thing. The American people trust you with what matters the most to them, the economy, inflation, border security and just managing the government. If I were you, my friend, I would focus on those issues, laser-like, and you will win this race.

KARL: And if you look at what the former president has said just in the last week or so about Kamala Harris as he looks ahead to this debate, he has called her, quote, “low IQ,” “dumb,” someone who, quote, “can’t put two sentences together.”

Now those sound a little bit more than schoolyard taunts than the stuff of a presidential campaign.

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: But it’s also a strange way to set expectations before a debate.

GRAHAM: Yes, I -- I think she’s -- you know, she’s been a senator. She’s attorney general. She’s now vice president. Obviously, she has some talent.

But here’s what I would say. On foreign policy, she’s been a wrecking ball. On Israel, she sat there and listened to somebody call the Israeli government and people engaging in genocide and did nothing about it. She boycotted Bibi’s speech to the Congress, sending the signal to Hamas and Iran that America really doesn’t have Israel's back.

She was cheerleading the withdrawal from Afghanistan. She’s bragged about being the last person in the room -- the dumbest decision maybe in modern history by an American administration.

I was in Munich when she warned the Russians not to invade Ukraine. Four days later, they did.

She’s been in charge of the border in some way. I don’t know what the hell she’s been doing on the border, but we’ve got more terrorists in our country than any time in history. And fentanyl poisoning is the leading cause of death among young people in America. That’s what I would hit her with.

She’s been a wrecking ball on foreign policy. It’s been the most incompetent administration I can remember on things that matter to the American people, your safety and your prosperity. That’s what I would talk about, not her IQ. Her job performance has been lousy.

KARL: By the way, that speech for Netanyahu, as I recall, J.D. Vance didn’t go either. So, it’s maybe a double boycott there. Let me --

GRAHAM: Well -- well, but he wasn’t -- yes, but it -- but he wasn’t vice president of the United States. And no -- nobody doubts J.D.’s support for Israel. J.D. has been unequivocally supporting Israel.

She has been horrible. She’s slow-walking weapons. She didn’t attend the speech. And that juiced up every terrorist in the region. So, it’s not a fair comparison.

KARL: Yes, but I -- but I would also point out that in her speech, she said -- in her speech to the convention she said, contrary to what many in her own party wanted her to say, promised to give Israel what it needs to defend itself.

But let me move on to --

GRAHAM: Jon, the damage -- the damage -- the damage has been done. She was vice president of the United States. She refused to come and attend a joint session of Congress with the prime minister of Israel.

KARL: OK. But --

GRAHAM: That sent the worst possible signal you could send.

KARL: But let me -- let me ask you about another big issue this week. President Trump, seemingly out of nowhere, came out of public funding for IVF treatments and a mandate for insurance companies to -- to fund them.

Where did this come from? I know Congress had a vote on this. You voted against it. Every Republican in the Senate voted against it except for two. Where did this come from?

GRAHAM: I think he’s just trying to show his support for IVF treatments that, you know, we’ve been accused, the party has, of being a bit -- against birth control. We’re not. We’ve been accused of being against IVF treatments. We’re not.

And one thing I thought about after what he said, you know, we have tax credits for people who have children. Maybe we should have a means tested tax credit for people using IVF and other treatments to become pregnant. I would support a tax credit, means tested, kind of like we do with children, that makes sense to me, to encourage people to have children.

KARL: But you wouldn’t support this idea of mandating insurance companies to cover this, would you? I mean, you’ve already voted against it.

GRAHAM: No. No, I would, because there’s no end to that. Yes, there’s no end to that. I think a tax credit for children makes sense, means tested. And I think, let’s look at that concept for people trying to have a child. That makes some sense to me.

KARL: OK, let --

GRAHAM: I'll talk to my Democratic colleagues. We might be able to find common ground here.

KARL: OK, let me ask you also about this incident at Arlington National Cemetery. Obviously, I know president -- former President Trump was invited by the families to be here.

GRAHAM: Yes.

KARL: But here’s the statement that the Army has put out about what happened. They say: Participants in the August 26th ceremony and the subsequent Section 60 visit were made aware of federal laws, Army regulations and DOD policies which clearly prohibit political activities on cemetery grounds. An Arlington National Cemetery employee, who attempted to ensure the adherence to these rules, was abruptly pushed aside. The incident was unfortunate. And it is also unfortunate that that employee and her professionalism has been unfairly attacked.”

Did the campaign, did the – the campaign cross a line here?

GRAHAM: You know, I don’t know. I think we need to, you know – I'm all for looking at what happened.

But you know what really is unfortunate, that these families had to go visit their – their fallen loved ones at Arlington due to incompetence by the Biden administration.

You know, I've tried to work with President Biden to get Saudi Arabia and Israel to reconcile. I've supported a lot of their nomination – nominees. I've known President Biden for a long time.

But Vice President Harris bragged about being the last person in the room cheerleading the withdrawal of all forces that led to the death of these 13, a rise in terrorism, combine that with a broken border, another 9/11 is coming our way.

So, what I take away from this whole debate about Arlington is why they died, how they died, and the incompetency that led to their death. To the American people, we’ve lost deterrence. Nobody in the world is afraid of Kamala Harris. She has become, in my view, ineffective in terms of a voice for America. So, if you want to avoid more dead Americans, vote for Trump.

KARL: And I know you also opposed Donald Trump’s talk of quickly getting out of Afghanistan as well.

Senator Graham, thank you –

GRAHAM: I did.

KARL: Thank you very much for joining us on THIS WEEK.

Coming up, Kamala Harris moves to the middle on some hot button issues. Colorado’s Democratic Governor Jared Polis joins us live.

We’re back in two minutes.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

DANA BASH, CNN ANCHOR: Do you still want to ban fracking?

KAMALA HARRIS, VICE PRESIDENT OF THE U.S. (D) AND U.S. PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: No, and I made that clear on the debate stage in 2020.

BASH: You raised your hand when asked whether or not the border should be decriminalized. Do you still believe that?

HARRIS: I believe there should be consequence. We have laws that have to be followed and enforced that address and deal with people who cross our border illegally.

BASH: You’ve had a lot of Republican speakers at the convention. Will you appoint a Republican to your cabinet?

HARRIS: Yes, I would.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was Vice President Harris this week in her first interview since securing the Democratic nomination. KARL: I'm joined now by Colorado Governor Jared Polis, here on behalf of the Harris-Walz campaign.

Governor, thank you for being here.

You recently said that Harris has moved to the center on economic issues. It seems like she’s done that on a bunch of issues recently. What’s driving that shift?

GOV. JARED POLIS (D), COLORADO: Well, look, I think it's a sign of a good leader that they learn and evolve over time. When, you know, I think what's key with regard to economic issues is making sure that we have additional tax relief for most American families, especially those making under $400,000 a year, families making $50,000 a year, families making $200,000 a year. They're getting the short end of the stick.

We need to reduce taxes. Her tax credit package does that. You know, whether it's a move to the middle, the left, the right, it's really about what works. Kamala Harris is a pragmatic leader who looks at data and science and makes the best decision she can.

KARL: But is this -- is this an acknowledgment -- again, it's not just the economic issues. It's the border, it's energy. Is this an acknowledgment that the party had moved too far to the left? I mean, when she was running in that Democratic primary, the energy it seemed to be was with Elizabeth Warren, Bernie Sanders, and candidates moved as far as they could to the progressive left. Did it go too far?

POLIS: Well, look, you know, the Democrats are a broad tent party and they have people who are conservative. They have people who are liberal. But Kamala Harris has said, and I take her at her word, is she's going to be a leader for all Americans, a president for all Americans. And that means regardless of your ideology, there's going to be a place for your viewpoints and for hearing it out, and for making the best decisions for everybody.

And of course, Americans across the board want to have a secure border. Kamala Harris will work to deliver on that and secure the border. Americans across the board want to make sure we reduce the increase in prices that's been occurring. She has a very aggressive plan to do that.

So, again, she's going to lead in a way that really benefits every family around the kitchen table, helps grow our economy and supports prosperity, and as she says opportunity, the opportunity agenda across our country.

KARL: So let me ask you about an issue that unfortunately did not come up in the CNN interview. It's the issue of Medicare for all, which she favored -- she didn't just favor it in the 2020 campaign. It was, it seemed to me, a centerpiece of her campaign. Let's look back at what she said at the time.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

KAMALA HARRIS (D), VICE PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES AND PRESIDENTIAL CANDIDATE: I am proud to stand with my colleagues and friends and support Medicare for all.

I strongly believe that we need to have Medicare for all.

I support Medicare for all. I always have.

I'm running for president to say we need Medicare for all.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: So now her campaign says that her position on that has changed, that she no longer favors Medicare for all, which would be, you know, government-run health insurance for everybody.

Do you have a sense of why it changed? I mean, and does she need to explain that?

POLIS: Well, look. As a basic value, should every American have access to health care? Absolutely. Almost every other wealthy country does that. We do it very poorly in our nation. People overpay for insurance. There's people that are still lack coverage. They don't get it through work. They make too much to get it through Medicaid. They're not old enough to get it for Medicare.

And we can and we must do better. And that involves taking on the special interest, which she's done as attorney general, which she's done as a senator, I mean, taking on the pharmaceutical industry, taking on the hospitals and providers, because we absolutely can do this better. It's not a one-size-fits-all solution. I think she understands, and Americans want to have their choice of health care.

But can we do better and save people money on health care? Absolutely. And I expect that she'll be working hard to deliver real results so that people's monthly insurance premiums are lower and that the American people are able to afford health care.

KARL: But somewhere along the line she, I guess, decided that eliminating private health insurance and replacing it with Medicare for everybody was the wrong approach?

POLIS: Well, again, I think what she acknowledges is what most Americans acknowledge is that there's not a one-size-fits-all solution for health care. This is a very challenging and vexing issue, right. It's not one that lends itself to a one-word answer. It's figuring out, of course first and foremost, how Americans can save money with what they have. Most Americans have insurance.

Are most Americans happy with insurance? Not necessarily. Many people feel they pay too much and they get fought over on the benefits. Can we do better? Does expanding Medicare as a roll, letting people buy in at age 55 or 60? Yes, these are ideas that should absolutely be on the table. Does negotiating for prescription drug rates, should that be on the table?

Look, Americans are sick and tired of being ripped off and paying five times, eight times as much for the exact same prescription drug that's available in Europe or Canada. We're sick and tired of that. We need to take on big pharma and make sure Americans get a reasonable price for prescription drugs that people need to stay healthy.

KARL: Another issue that didn't come up in the CNN interview is her now apparent support for, at least in some aspects, the border wall. I mean, we've seen in her ad on the border, she uses images of the border wall. She says she'll sign the Senate bill which provided $650 million for more border wall construction.

She had called, previously, the border wall a medieval vanity project and a stupid use of money that she vowed to block.

So what's changed there?

POLIS: Look, this is another issue that as it gets into the public discourse is very misleading. Democrats, in general, Kamala Harris, Joe Biden, you know, Barack Obama have always been supportive of building barriers and walls for certain parts of the border, as part of a comprehensive border security strategy.

KARL: Well, but wait a minute, she --

(CROSSTALK)

POLIS: Border security strategy (INAUDIBLE) and monitoring.

KARL: I mean, she called the border wall a medieval vanity project, a stupid use of money, and said that she would block funding for it.

So, she wasn't talking about supporting, you know, the wall, any of it.

POLIS: Well, that's true, that the border wall that Donald Trump has proposed is a huge boondoggle and waste of taxpayer money. He effectively talked about a wall across the entire border rather than using barriers of different kinds effectively in a cost-effective manner, including imagery from satellites, including on the ground intel to secure and lock down the border.

What Kamala Harris is for is securing it in the most cost effective way possible to stop the illegal flow of people, of guns, of drugs across that southern border. And, of course, Donald Trump's border wall would not work, would waste taxpayer money. And, of course, barriers and walls are a part of the overall comprehensive strategy that Kamala Harris will deliver on to secure the southern border.

KARL: And let me just ask you quickly, another proposal that she's put out there is trying to make homeownership more affordable. One of the proposals is this $25,000 incentive for first time home buyers. You have a big issue with affordability in Denver, of course. Do you think this is -- this would be an effective way or would it could it possibly actually drive up costs further?

POLIS: Well, it's part of Kamala Harris's overall strategy. So what she leads with and we're -- we're strongly in agreement and we're pushing for in Colorado, we're moving barriers that exist to building homes. She talks about 3 million new homes nationally is the goal, what bureaucracy can we get out of the way, what red tape can we eliminate, how can we make it easier to build the kinds of homes that people can afford reducing red tape and legal costs.

When we deliver on that, of course, it also makes sense to help people buy rather than rent, so that first time home buyers, young people can get into ownership, build wealth, build equity. It's part of that opportunity economy that she talks about rather than just have your paycheck go to rent every month, how can you build intergenerational wealth to be able to support your own retirement, perhaps your kids’ college education.

KARL: All right. Governor Polis, thank you for joining this morning. Appreciate it.

And coming up, some surprising new numbers in our new ABC News/Ipsos poll. Rick Klein and the powerhouse roundtable will be here to break it all down. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: Roundtable is here and ready to go, but first, let me turn to ABC News Political Director and Washington Bureau Chief, Rick Klein with the latest on our new ABC News-Ipsos poll. Rick, first of all, we see it seems, is a gender gap that was already big is now bigger.

RICK KLEIN, ABC NEWS WASHINGTON BUREAU CHIEF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL DIRECTOR: Yeah. There wasn't a lot of movement since the convention, but one place that there is, it is among women. We've seen now a big gap, 13 points, a Harris edge among women. This is larger than it was just a couple of weeks ago. We see the gender gap among men get a little narrower and particularly, white women coming home to Kamala Harris. This is a striking difference and it tells you something about the campaign strategy going forward.

KARL: And what's interesting is we're seeing in the race essentially tied slightly for Harris, but a big lead for Harris among personal attributes and a big lead for Trump along some of the major issues.

KLEIN: It's like we have two entirely different elections going on at the same time. If this election comes down to the major issues that voters care the most about, or tell us they've cared the most about, it is advantage Donald Trump -- immigration, plus nine for Trump; the economy, inflation, plus eight for Donald Trump. But when it comes to perceptions of them as human beings and as -- of leaders, things like physical health, whether you trust this person, whether you consider this person to be honest, enormous edges for Kamala Harris. That is the entire election, and it was similar when Joe Biden was the candidate. The difference now, Harris has an overwhelming edge in some of these areas where Biden was running a lot closer. But again, the issues, advantage Trump.

KARL: Interesting. We'll get more into this with the rest of the Roundtable. Thank you very much, Rick Klein. We'll be back in just a moment.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: The Roundtable is back. Former DNC Chair Donna Brazile, Former RNC Chair Reince Priebus, "Wall Street Journal" National Politics Reporter Vivian Salama, and ABC News Washington Bureau Chief Rick Klein. So Donna, you see our poll. It certainly looks a lot better for Democrats than it did when Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket, but no real convention bounce. This race is basically tied, maybe a slight lead for Harris.

DONNA BRAZILE, ABC NEWS CONTRIBUTOR & FORMER DNC CHAIR: The Republicans didn't get a bounce. We didn't get a bounce. But you know what? We've gotten a boost, a boost of energy, a boost of excitement, which allows us --

KARL: For Democrats than it did when Joe Biden was at the top of the ticket, but no real convention bounce. This race is basically tied. Maybe a slight lead for Harris.

BRAZILE: You know, the Republicans didn’t get a bounce. We didn't get a bounce. But you know what, we've gotten a boost – a boost of energy, a boost of excitement, which allows us to close some of the gaps that Rick pointed out in the analysis of the poll.

I'm – I'm very satisfied with where things are, but there's room to grow. This candidate, Kamala Harris, the vice president of the United States, joined this race on July 21st. Today is September 1st. It's been 42 days. Forty-two days of closing the gap, putting out policy positions on everything from where she's going to lead the country on the economy, what she's going to do differently in terms of health care. And, yes, she's addressed some of to those foreign policy issues that Senator Graham conveniently forgot.

So, I’m glad, but let me just tell you this, this excitement is turning into volunteers, money, boots on the ground, and that will make the difference in the last 65 days.

KARL: I mean there's been a clear change in the dynamic of this race. And it – that happened before the convention.

REINCE PRIEBUS, FORMER RNC CHAIR & FORMER TRUMP WHITE HOUSE CHIEF OF STAFF & ABC NEWS POLITICAL ANALYST: Well, but if you look at this poll, we're right back to where we were before the Biden-Trump debate. And if I was a Democrat, I wouldn’t be thrilled –

KARL: Well, Trump was – Trump was up before the –

PRIEBUS: Slightly, but I wouldn't be thrilled with this poll if I was a Democrat after a month of cotton candy, vanilla ice cream, and a free ride, essentially it's tied.

And secondly, if you look at the issues that matter, the border, when you look at the economy, inflation, gas, groceries, she's got nothing to say. I mean this is a candidate at the interview the other day that if it was the Olympics would win the Olympic gold medal in the flip-flop. But it's worse than that. I'm not –

KARL: I mean – I mean – I mean – I mean –

PRIEBUS: Plus, it is a character issue when you have no explanation –

BRAZILE: Oh, my God.

PRIEBUS: Just wait a second. She is a person who voted for the Green New Deal, which would – which would kill oil.

KARL: She didn’t vote – actually, the Green New Deal never had a vote.

PRIEBUS: She would – she is in favor of it.

KARL: OK.

PRIEBUS: She would kill the price of gas in this country. She said that she was against fracking. She said that she would move money away from the police.

KARL: So –

PRIEBUS: And what was her answer? She said, well, I’m not going to do it anymore. So, that is a character issue.

BRAZILE: Well, run against Kamala Harris in 2019. Run around – run against Kamala Harris in 2019. But why would –

PRIEBUS: Well, who is Kamala Harris of 2024?

BRAZILE: Her name is Kamala Harris, but I don’t have to explain it. She's the vice president of the United States. Just understand that.

PRIEBUS: Right. Say my name.

BRAZILE: She – she – say your name? Of course, I say it every weekend.

PRIEBUS: True.

BRAZILE: And I just call you Mr. Chairman if I don't want to pronounce it right.

PRIEBUS: That’s right.

BRAZILE: Here's the point. Here’s the point. She is running on more substance than Donald Trump ever understood.

PRIEBUS: Oh really?

BRAZILE: Donald Trump has had five different positions on abortion.

PRIEBUS: What substance is that?

BRAZILE: Well, he’s had five –

PRIEBUS: Defunding the police?

BRAZILE: Five different positions on abortion over the last five days.

PRIEBUS: OK. Wait one second.

BRAZILE: And now he’s saying he’s for IVF when he doesn't even believe in giving people –

PRIEBUS: Please, not one Republican voted to hurt (ph) IVF, OK. Not one. Not one.

BRAZILE: Let me just say this, Reince, if you want to have a conversation about flip-flop – flip-flop –

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: All right. All right. All right. All right.

PRIEBUS: Wait, she is the arsonist who sets the fire to the flame and then praises the fire department for putting it out.

BRAZILE: Arsonist.

KARL: She sets fire to the flame. OK. Reince, OK, OK, hang on.

PRIEBUS: She – she – no, I'm going to explain.

BRAZILE: Is Donald Trump listening to you, because I'm praying for him not to talk in your ear (ph). You don’t have to lie the way you lie.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: OK, OK, OK, let me – let me – let me get somebody who can kind of put some light on this.

KARL: Vivian, he’s out –

BRAZILE: Come on Vivian, give me some love.

VIVIAN SALAMA, WALL STREET JOURNAL NATIONAL POLITICS REPORTER: I was entertained watching them go.

KARL: You were – you were – you were just out with Trump on Friday at the rally.

SALAMA: Yes.

KARL: He has done some pretty spectacular changes just this week on the issue of abortion.

SALAMA: That's right. I – you know, earlier this week he gave an interview – an interview where he said that he was going to support government funding of IVF. Something that sent shockwaves through his party. You heard Lindsey Graham earlier today really not on board with something like that. A number of Republicans not supportive of that. But then he also came out later in the week and said that he would not support a rollback of Florida's potential mandate to roll back the six-week limits on abortion. And so there’s –

KARL: I mean, he was – he took both positions on that issue this week. This week.

SALAMA: He took both positions. Before that, he said that he would – that he thinks six weeks is too short. But he said he would not support rolling back the six weeks.

KARL: Yes.

SALAMA: And so a number of policies, Donna was saying five policies in a day – in five days. He has really struggled because, ultimately, Republicans know that this is going to be a crucial issue for them in November, and Trump is trying to find some middle ground, albeit with some hesitation.

KARL: Ad, Rick, this – the abortion back and forth, Republicans have gotten used to this with Donald Trump, but it seemed to unsettle Republicans this week.

KLEIN: Yes, and it’s almost a rinse and repeat with Donald Trump. You know that he's going to have a position that’s going to outrage some people on the right, and there’s some walking it back and some apologizing about it. But you’re right, prominent, conservative voices saying, wait a second, this is not what we supported.

Donald Trump came out in favor of more abortions in Florida, for women to have more access to abortions at later stages of their pregnancy. And, yes, he had to have a different position on the – on the specifics of the Florida law, that he is a Florida voter –

KARL: He’s going to vote on.

KLEIN: He's going to have a chance to vote on in a couple of months.

KARL: In the beginning of the week, you said he was going to vote for the -- or suggested he was going to vote for this amendment and then the out -- yeah, the blowback now, he's going to vote against it.

KLEIN: That's right. When he said -- when he's talking about his administration as being something that's going to be great for reproductive rights, that is like -- that rings a really weird sound in a lot of conservative ears, and they're willing to tolerate some of it.

But he knows as he does in a lot of his actions how much he has riding on his own base, and even as he tries to soften some of the edges, that is a real, real problem for him if he continues --

SALAMA: Well, really -- you really touched upon it when you talked about the women and specifically with the ABC poll because that is going to be a crucial voting bloc for both Republicans and Democrats going into November. The Trump campaign before when Biden was still in the race thought that they could lure some Black voters, and felt that they were in a good place there now that Harris is in the race, they've sort of conceded that they won't do as with Black voters but they are banking on women to really turn out, especially white women, suburban white women this November. Those issues could really hurt them if they don't get their messaging straight.

BRAZILE: Look, the vice president has to continue to broaden her support. This race is not over, okay? So, you and I got a couple more weekends like this, my friend, weekend part (ph) company if you want to, although I would love to continue to have you as a friend because guess what? LSU is going to do some damage tonight to USC.

So here's the point, she has to broaden her support. She still has to not just reach out into the suburbs, get independents, she also got to make sure that she could continue to talk to young people, young Black voters, young Hispanic voters.

This race is far from over. That's why she's going to campaign with Joe Biden. Yeah, watch the two of them, the charisma that comes from just seeing them together in Pennsylvania, bringing home union households, that's very --

KARL: So, Biden will be campaigning with Harris tomorrow in Pennsylvania. I guess you probably like that.

PRIEBUS: Yeah, but -- well, obviously, I like it and she didn't want to talk about her record with Joe Biden during the interview. But the reality is it's Labor Day, nobody's going to be watching Joe Biden and Kamala Harris on the television tomorrow.

BRAZILE: The people in Pennsylvania will.

PRIEBUS: But the reality is on this poll, if you look at where Trump -- where President Trump is with women voters, Black voters, Hispanic voters in the suburbs, he's doing better today than he did in 2020, and he lost by 50,000 votes in 2020. He's doing better today than he did in 2016.

So the fact of the matter is the Democrats are in worse shape today than they ever were at this point in a campaign running against Donald Trump. And so --

KARL: But they're in better shape than they were months ago.

PRIEBUS: They're in better shape than they were two months ago, but the reality is when the election in 2016 --

KARL: This race is close.

PRIEBUS: -- came down to 60,000 votes, 50,000 votes in 2020, and she hasn't -- doesn't have an answer on the border and the economy --

BRAZILE: Oh my God.

PRIEBUS: And she's praising (ph) gas prices when it's -- when it's Governor Abbott and drilling that's going on in the Permian, and it's the border wall that Governor Abbott put in Texas that is doing anything in this country on immigration.

BRAZILE: The thing is -- is that we put out more white papers than any other presidential --

PRIEBUS: White papers.

BRAZILE: White papers, that’s position papers on various issues.

And let me just say this, after Russia invaded Ukraine, the United States of America led by Joe Biden and Kamala Harris decided that we had to make sure that we were energy independent, and not rely on foreign oil and foreign gas.

So there's a -- there's a reason why --- there's a reason why you have to stand on these policies. And let me also say this, we got 65 days left. I’m not afraid of a -- of a two-point race or three-point race because you can win that on the ground.

What I’m concerned about is that I want the vice president to be able to stand up at that debate and know I am not a moderator, thank the Lord because I don't want to do all that kind of homework over the next couple of weeks, but she has to stand up and tell the American people exactly what she will do because all Donald Trump and his supporters will do is complain and blame.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: Let me ask you -- let me ask you about that because we had this much anticipated interview on CNN and -- there were a lot of questions that are left unanswered about, you know, what has driven the policy changes, what -- there have been some white papers, not -- not a lot of policy specifics yet.

SALAMA: No, she --

KARL: I mean, I mean, to be fair, from either candidate.

SALAMA: In fact, when she was pressed by Dana Bash who did a great job in the interview, Vice President Harris kept saying my values have not changed when she was trying to explain sort of her shift in position on issues like fracking, on Medicare, and a number of other things.

That was something that President Trump -- that former President Trump and a number of the speakers on Friday really latched onto, to say what does that even mean?

And especially on issues like fracking where she could really deliver a clear reason for her shift other than the fact that she joined the ticket with Biden, that something -- something like that, that resonates in states like Pennsylvania.

KARL: Rick, what do you think -- are you hearing? Are we going to see more interviews or do they think that was like it?

KLEIN: I think there's going to be more, maybe more like influencers, podcasters, maybe not as many -- the mainstream media interviews as we go.

But look, I think you saw in that kind of a -- the -- a strategy of not engaging with Trump, that to me was the most interesting is that when Dana Bash from CNN put forward some of these some of the critiques, she didn't want to go there.

And I think you have to guard against complacency at the same time because right now, she's telegraphing a strategy that says she wants Trump to beat Trump on his own. That means you're going to be more hesitant on some policy.

KARL: All right. Coming up, some real locker room talk from a reporter who broke barriers for women covering professional sports. Her remarkable story when we come back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

MELISSA LUDTKE, "SPORTS ILLUSTRATED" BASEBALL REPORTER: What I was asking for was the exact same thing that's been going on for years and years in clubhouses and baseball since the beginning of baseball. It's always taken place in the locker room, and yet because I'm a woman, I can't be a part of that.

HOWARD COSELL, ABC SPORTS BROADCASTER: The core question has to be, to do your job, why do you need the same immediacy of access?

LUDTKE: The same reason the male reporters do. We're working in a time when sports is more than a sport on the field. It's a sport that involves personalities. It involves the people who play it, the people who run it.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: That was then "Sports Illustrated" baseball reporter, Melissa Ludtke in an interview with the legendary ABC sports broadcaster, Howard Cosell. Ludtke back then sued Major League Baseball for the right to be allowed in clubhouses. Her federal case secured equal access for women sports reporters. I sat down with her to discuss her incredible story detailed in her new book " Locker Room Talk: A Woman's Struggle to Get Inside."

Melissa, thank you for being here, and what a story. I mean, you are a true trailblazer.

(LAUGH)

LUDTKE: I was considered a pioneer back then, along with about nine or ten others.

KARL: You were 26 years old.

LUDTKE: Yes.

KARL: And you've managed to, like, achieve a dream. You're covering the New York Yankees for "Sports Illustrated."

LUDTKE: Well, I'm covering Major League Baseball. I mean, that was really the thing. I was the only woman covering it nationwide. The Yankees were in my radar screen because they were such a bizarre team. I mean, it's a soap opera in the locker room, in the clubhouse, you know, I could read the stories and know that. But on the field, they were also one heck of a team. I mean, you had Reggie the straw that stirred the drink, you had Thurman Munson the captain, you had George Steinbrenner the owner, you had Billy Martin who George Steinbrenner would go on to hire and fire four times.

It was the story, and it was in New York, and I was based in New York. And so yes, I got to know them very, very well, and that's where I learned about how to cover baseball.

KARL: And obviously as being a beat reporter.

LUDTKE: Yes.

KARL: The players talk to the reporters in the locker room. I mean, this is like a basic thing in the clubhouse after the game. So you got access. You got access to the Yankees' locker room.

LUDTKE: Well, you know, it took me two years. And I --

KARL: But you got it.

LUDTKE: And I got it because I never went public with any of my, quote-unquote, "demands" or any of my frustrations. I worked very much behind the scenes with the young PR person, first-year person, my age, and that made all the difference. It wasn't one of the older, I would call them, curmudgeonly men who had said to other women reporters, you better behave yourself, you know. You better behave yourself. And if you don't behave yourself, you know, you're out.

They were just so frightened if they let one woman in that door, in that door, in the door of baseball, I mean, not even in the clubhouse.

KARL: Yes.

LUDTKE: That that was going to be the end of the boys' club. It was going to be the end of something that was treasured about that sport.

KARL: But the amazing thing to me is you get access to the clubhouse.

LUDTKE: Yes.

KARL: At just the moment when we have arguably the greatest World Series of our lifetimes. I mean, this is the 1977 World Series, certainly with Reggie Jackson becoming Mr. October.

LUDTKE: Absolutely.

KARL: I mean, the greatest single performance.

LUDTKE: Well, and they're also playing the Dodgers.

KARL: And they're playing the Dodgers.

LUDTKE: I mean this is an historic --

KARL: This is an epic showdown.

LUDTKE: This is the first time in the World Series. I mean, L.A. and New York, you know, have been playing since they've gone out to L.A. to become the L.A. Dodgers but it used to be the citywide. You know, the Dodgers-Yankees. I mean, come on. It doesn't get bigger than that.

But personally, for me, take away all of the glitter and the glamor of the series. It was the first time I was ever assigned to actually cover a World Series. So for me, it was just the biggest opportunity that I'd had ever in my lifetime.

KARL: You've achieved this moment. You're covering the World Series. The Yankees-Dodgers World Series, game one.

LUDTKE: Right.

KARL: What happens?

LUDTKE: Game one, World Series, 1977, and there I am sitting in my seat in what's been called the alternate press box which is down in the grandstand. And in the fifth inning, over a very scratchy little loudspeaker, I think I hear my name being called. I was told to report to the main press box. And I am told up there that even though the Yankees had given me permission to be in the clubhouse, even though I had gone to the Dodgers because I knew they didn't have a woman covering them, asked them they had taken a vote. And they had voted.

KARL: And they approved you. They voted in favor.

LUDTKE: That they had approved me. So we had -- both teams had approved, and what I heard from the lieutenant, lieutenant of Bowie Kuhn who never told me this himself. He said the commissioner is the only one who's able to give permission for this to happen. It doesn't matter what the teams say. It doesn't matter.

KARL: It doesn't matter what the players say.

LUDTKE: Permission is never granted and it will never be granted in this World Series, and it never will be granted forever, and so that was the message.

KARL: And taken away from you at the moment you've reached this --

LUDTKE: Exactly. Exactly.

KARL: This pinnacle.

LUDTKE: So there was this moment of -- in my life, it seemed a pinnacle at that point.

KARL: Yes.

LUDTKE: Because this is what I worked so hard to do, to prove myself, you know, really against the odds. There was no road map for me to follow to be a woman covering baseball, but I'd done it. Now I had a chance to really show it and that was taken away so.

KARL: You lose the battle during the World Series.

LUDTKE: Yes.

KARL: But then "Sports Illustrated" and Time Inc. stand by you, and say, we're going to challenge this in court.

LUDTKE: They did. Yes. We're now in the Southern District Court of Manhattan. That court decides to take the case. They have to figure out the judge so they have this old wooden box. Ancient wooden box, and they put all the names of the available judges into it. They turn it around, turn it around. The clerk puts the hand in, pulls out a card. Judge Constance Baker Motley.

KARL: So the only woman on the court.

LUDTKE: That's right.

KARL: The first black woman to serve as a federal judge.

LUDTKE: That's right.

KARL: Gets this case.

LUDTKE: That's right.

KARL: You're 26 years old, now you are one of the most famous sports reporters in America as a result of this case. I mean, "SNL."

LUDTKE: Yes.

KARL: Is doing skits about you.

LUDTKE: That's right, with O.J. Simpson I might add.

KARL: O.J. Simpson.

LUDTKE: Yes.

(LAUGHTER)

KARL: Quite amazing.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I'm standing here with Buffalo Bills star running back O.J. Simpson.

O.J., I don't know much about football, but I know what I like.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

KARL: You're losing in the court of public opinion. I mean, people are coming down on you.

LUDTKE: There's no question. I mean, the cartoonist had a field day. You know --

KARL: Why should women be in the locker room?

LUDTKE: Absolutely. Absolutely. There was no comprehension of why I would be wanting to do this because the case was made against me very effectively by the commissioner, picked up by the cadre of all-male sport writers at that point. There were very few women who had a voice in this.

(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)

COSELL: Touching matter because it's now under litigation, commissioner, the Melissa Ludtke case. You're opposed to women going into the clubhouse. Why?

BOWIE KUHN: THEN COMMISSIONER, MAJOR LEAGUE BASEBALL: Well, Howard, it's our view that it's not a fair thing for our players. This is a (inaudible) where they are dressing and (inaudible) we think they're entitled to some reasonable privacy.

(END VIDEO CLIP)

LUDTKE: And so, from their perspective, it was really a case of my morals. It was, how could a girl or a woman or a lady or a damsel as they liked to call me, you know, possibly want to do this? But that was how the whole thing wanted to be portrayed as kind of a sexual adventure from both the players' perspective in terms of their -- what the commissioner would call their sexual privacy.

Now, I was also kept out before the game and that's when magazine reporters did their work. Now, there was no player who was naked at that point, no player. They kept their uniforms on from batting practice until the game. So, why would I be excluded then if the issue was the sexual privacy?

KARL: You win this case.

LUDTKE: Yeah.

KARL: Major League Baseball appeals, you win the appeal.

LUDTKE: Yeah.

KARL: It's historic. I want to read what you wrote after winning.

(CROSSTALK)

KARL: This was an op-ed you wrote in "The New York Times" in 1979.

LUDTKE: Yes.

KARL: When the time comes that we no longer read or hear about women in any locker room, and instead turn our attention to reading their stories and listening to their accounts of the game, then we will have reached the goal that I set out for in 1977. Have we reached that goal?

LUDTKE: We're largely there. Largely there. Now, we do have women in the broadcast booth. They're not just sideline reporters. We have a lot of women covering sports and doing just an absolutely wonderful job. People read their stories today and yes, they don't sometimes even notice the byline. So we have come a long way, but we can't say that we've arrived at a time where I think the attitudes have shifted totally away from recognizing that we have to recognize that women have a tougher road to hoe in this. When you're the only woman still in a sports department at your newspaper, it's still not easy. It's not easy.

KARL: Our thanks to Melissa Ludtke. Her excellent book "Locker Room Talk" is available now. We'll be right back.

(COMMERCIAL BREAK)

KARL: That's all for today. Thank you for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News Tonight," and have a great day.