'This Week' Transcript: Tragedy in Charleston

Sen. Rick Santorum also joins the program

ByABC News
June 21, 2015, 10:17 AM

— -- This is a rush transcript



ANNOUNCER: Starting right now on ABC's THIS WEEK, tragedy in Charleston -- new this morning, prayer and hope -- the Emanuel AME Church opening for the first time since the rampage. Brand new exclusive interviews with the families about what comes next.

GOP drama -- Jeb Bush jumps in.

Can he separate from the 2016 pack?

And Donald Trump, a serious candidate or a sideshow?

Plus, on this Father's Day, honoring a hero dad -- the inspiration behind the ice bucket challenge on his brand new mission.

From ABC News, a special edition of THIS WEEK, reporting now from Charleston, South Carolina, Martha Raddatz.


MARTHA RADDATZ, HOST: Good morning from here in Charleston, known as the holy city for all its churches. It's the first Sunday since the tragedy at the Emanuel Church. This morning, take a look at the worshippers gathering for the first time since Wednesday night's massacre -- healing and hoping that the future will bring some kind of peace.

And the entire Charleston community is uniting this morning as houses of prayer throughout this wounded city.

In a few moments, we will bring you new interviews with the families of those who were killed, telling their powerful and moving stories.

This morning, we'll also explore those big question about race, about hate, about that Confederate flag still flying near the state capital. So many in this community and across the country saying it is time to take it down.

But first, we're learning chilling new details this morning about that accused mass murderer.

Steve Osunsami has been here all week long and joins me now with that part of the story -- good morning, Steve.


Police are telling us that this accused gunman is cooperating with their investigation. But I want to also show you the photo that's on the front page of the local paper here -- nine sweet grass roses remembering the nine people who were killed outside this church.

Over the past few days, we've seen hundreds, perhaps thousands of people, come to this church laying candles and flowers all with one message -- that Charleston and this country is better than this.


OSUNSAMI (voice-over): In the words of one of the victim's families struggling with the murders here, hate won't win. The faithful are holding their Sunday services just three days after their church was a crime scene.

The alleged gunman, who police say meant to kill Black people, is seen in photos posted on a Web site updated just an hour before the killings. Federal and state authorities are trying to determine if 21-year-old Dylann Roof wrote this manifesto, saying that the Trayvon Martin case made him angry, that African-Americans are the biggest problem that America faces, and that South Carolina has no skinheads, no real KKK, well, someone has to have the bravery to take it to the real world, and I guess that has to be me."

Chris Scriven says he never thought Root was racist, but admits he may have missed a sign when he says Roof joked about shooting up a Charleston college.

CHRIS SCRIVEN, FRIEND OF DYLANN ROOT: I don't even think the church was his primary target, because he went -- he told us he was going for the school. But I think he couldn't get into that school because of the security and all that.

OSUNSAMI: Despite the blood that was spilled here, the families are forgiving. On a baseball diamond, Chris Singleton, who lost his mother, Sharonda.

CHRIS SINGLETON, SON OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Love is always stronger than hate. So we just love the way my mom would and the hate won't be anywhere close to where the love is.

OSUNSAMI: In the courtroom in front of the accused shooter...

ALANA SIMMONS, GRANDDAUGHTER OF SHOOTING VICTIM: Hate won't win. We have no room for hate, so we have to forgive.

OSUNSAMI: And in the high heat outside the church.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We are all one. Our hearts, our blood is all the same, our hearts are all the same. The color is gone in the kingdom of God.


OSUNSAMI: And now, a very difficult part of these families -- the first of these funerals, for the pastor of this church, is now scheduled for the end of the week.

RADDATZ: And that will be very difficult.

Thanks very much, Steve.

As we just heard from Steve, the family members' words riveted the entire nation when they expressed their forgiveness in that Charleston courtroom Friday afternoon.

Last night, we sat down with two family members, Waltrina Middleton, the cousin of victim Depayne Middleton, a mother of four daughters, and Malcolm Graham, the brother of victim Cynthia Hurd, a regional library manager who spent 31 years on the job.


Today would have been Cynthia Hurd's 55th birthday.

Tell me about your sister.

MALCOLM GRAHAM, BROTHER OF CYNTHIA HURD, KILLED IN CHARLESTON SHOOTING: Cynthia was an angel. She was personable. She was sharp. She was candid. She loved her family. She loved her community. She loved being a librarian. She loved books she loved words and she was not only a big sister to me, she was my best friend. She was our family's matriarch. And she was the one that we all turned to when we needed some help.

RADDATZ: Tell me about your cousin.

MIDDLETON: Depayne Middleton is -- was a phenomenal human being. She loved her children with everything that she could love them with. She wanted them to have the world. She was the voice of reason for many of us, making sure that we stayed on the right track. And she was an inspiration to all of us.

RADDATZ: What do you tell your cousin's kids?

MIDDLETON: I am inspired by my cousin's children, the strength that they have demonstrated. But the only thing I can do right now is tell them that I love them and as a family, that we are there for them, that they are not alone.

RADDATZ: You were in the courtroom yesterday. It was such a stunning moment to hear people talk about forgiveness.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: For me, I'm a work in progress. And I acknowledge that I am very angry.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: We have no room for hating. (INAUDIBLE) forgiving.


MIDDLETON: And the spirit of this community is so deploy rooted in faith, there wasn't anything else that anyone could say, other than I forgive you. But it does not negate the fact that we are angry and that we are hurt and wounded and that we're seeking justice.

GRAHAM: Forgiveness, for me, will come in time. I've got a ways to get there. If my sister was walking across the street and was hit by a car, I can forgive the individual. It was an accident.

What happened on Wednesday night was premeditated. It was calculated. It was intentional.

And so I would love to see justice served. This is hate.

MIDDLETON: People are always excited to hear someone say I forgive, but I believe that in order for reconciliation to begin, you must acknowledge the -- the hurt, the grievance that was brought against the marginalized or the oppressed.

And so we have to start there before we can get to the other side of it.

RADDATZ: How does this city go forward?

GRAHAM: I think the city moves forward by what you're seeing over the last several days. They unite. Emanuel AME Church is a strong, historical church with strong roots deeply rooted in the Charleston community. And I think you see people coming together. You see us holding hands right now because we've got to do this together.


RADDATZ: Such incredible strength.

Now, let's bring in State Representative Reverend Carl Anderson and former state representative, Bakari Sellers.

Their colleague and friend, Senator Clementa Pinckney, was among the victims of the horrific church shooting.

Good morning, gentlemen.



RADDATZ: Reverend Anderson, I want to start with you.

We are in front of the Mother Emanuel Church.


RADDATZ: You're a pastor and a state legislator.


RADDATZ: What would you say to that congregation this morning?

ANDERSON: I would say to the congregation of Mother Emanuel AME Church that we are praying for you and service will begin today. Presiding elder, Novell Goth (ph), will be there. And we just ask that they would come out and just praise God in the midst of all of what has happened this past week.

RADDATZ: I know you're thinking about Senator Pinckney, but I know you're also thinking about his children...


RADDATZ: -- his daughters.


RADDATZ: The children of the others lost.

SELLERS: Well -- well, today is Father's Day and there are many people watching us this morning who are we getting brunch in bed, many fathers across the country and across the world.

But their families today, they go without their fathers on this day, especially Senator Pinckney's two girls. And that's what takes a little bit out of your spirit. That's what takes a little bit out of your -- out of your soul.

But we have to stay strong. We have to satay resilient. This community has been through so much and so much death and so much hatred.

But if Senator Pinckney was here, he would tell us to stand up and do not bow our head, go to church this morning and praise, worship and celebrate.

And so today, we lift him up in honor. We lift up those nine families and I say with a smile that those nine angels will be singing loudly during church service today.

RADDATZ: I want to move to the issue of the Confederate flag, which -- which still flies near the Capitol Building. We heard this week Jeb Bush say bring it down, Mitt Romney say bring it down.

Will that make a difference?

ANDERSON: That will -- that will not make a difference with them being outsiders. It takes the senators and the representatives of the state of South Carolina.

And I just hope that not only this week, but in the next seven months, when we come back to the general assembly, everyone will remember this week, it will be a bipartisan bill for us to move that Confederate flag, put it in a museum somewhere in Columbia, where it would be off of the state capitol ground.

I just hope that everybody remembers this, and everyone keep their commitment to come and deal with this when we go back into session in January 2016.

RADDATZ: And I want to ask you, Representative Sellers, how fragile do you think the progress that's been made?

SELLERS: I have been saying that throughout the week. February 8, 1968, in Orangeburg, South Carolina, we had another massacre in which 27 students were wounded and three were killed -- Henry Smith, Samuel Hammond and Delano Middleton. My father was actually one shot that night and the history books call it the Orangeburg massacre.

My father is 70. I'm 30 years old.

And the unfortunate part is we have the same shared experiences of burying out loved one.

Just to go back briefly to the Confederate flag and what that represents, our good friend Clementa Pinckney is going to be laying in state, lying in state, excuse me, in the rotunda of the state capitol 30 yards away from the Confederate flag as it will fly high and wave with the slightest hint of wind.

And that banner, that flag, it may not have killed Clementa, but it gave his shooter and others like shim, a banner under which to justify their actions. And for me, that may be even worse.

RADDATZ: Thank you both very much for joining us this morning.

ANDERSON: Thank you very much for having us this morning.

SELLERS: Thank you, and please keep us in your prayers.

RADDATZ: Now to Dylann Roof, that manifesto, those hateful words police are investigating -- ABC's legal analyst Dan Abrams and Michael German, a former FBI agent who infiltrated white supremacist groups join us now.

Michael German, I want to start with you, you have seen reports of that manifesto that they're looking into, as Dylann Roof may have written it, what does that tell you about him? Where does that kind of hate come from?

MICHAEL GERMAN, FMR. FBI AGENT: I think it fits a pattern where individuals have some deep-seeded hatred or fear or frustration, and they're looking for some justification for it. So, they go to the internet, they go to different groups or organizations, trying to find some justification where their anger and frustration can fit in.

RADDATZ: You once infiltrated a white supremacist group, but it doesn't appear he was affiliated with any kind of group. Is this something new, this lone wolf type white supremacist?

GERMAN: No, it's actually not new. The above-ground groups, the groups you hear about, the so-called hate groups, tend not to be involved in criminal activity, because they're identifiable, it's easy to find them. And it's not usual. There are individuals within the movement are actually instructed to go out and do something on their own or with a small group, a small cell of like-minded people.

RADDATZ: And Dan Abrams, that brings to mind, they're charging him or looking into it as a hate crime, but there seems to be so many similarities to terrorism, does it matter what they charge him with here? Does it matter if it's hate crime, terrorism?

DAN ABRAMS, ABC LEGAL ANALYST: We need to separate it out into the federal and the state possible charges. Under South Carolina law, there actually isn't a hate crime law, so if they were going to pursue this as a hate crime, they wouldhave to do it federally. And it they were going to refer to him as a domestic terrorist, that, too, would be a federal crime.

The more likely scenario, though, is that he gets charged in South Carolina, under their state law, and faces the possibility of the death penalty, the death penalty would be much harder, there would be a more convoluted way to get there if they were to charge him under the federal law.

So I would expect that this would begin as a pretty garden variety murder case, where the death penalty is on the table in the killing of these nine people.

RADDATZ: And do you see any defense here for Dylann Roof, if you were Dylann Roof's lawyer?

ABRAMS: Not as of right now. I mean, it seems he's cooperating with the authorities. Look, in occasional cases you see someone who comes forward, who cooperates with the authorities, sometimes you'll see someone even plead guilty in a case like this. You know people talk about immediately about the possibility of an insanity defense.

Well, you know, the insanity defense is so hard to win, particularly in a case like this, where seems to have been so much sort of premeditation and thought about how he was going to do what he was going to do and why he was going to do it.

So, when you think about the possibility of what kind of defense, I think his lawyers right now are trying to sort out exactly what happened here and trying to just get through these initial proceedings, figure out is this going to be tried in state or federal court? And make the ultimate determination which is, is my client going to plead guilty?

RADDATZ: OK. Thanks very much to you, Dan, and thanks Michael.

Now to Joseph Riley, the mayor of Charleston. He is a man who has spent his political life working to lift the city from its dark, racial past. And now he is on the front lines of Charleston's massive effort to overcome this stunning tragedy.


RADDATZ: We talked to Mayor Joe Riley moments after he met with families of the victims.

JOE RILEY, MAYOR OF CHARLESTON: And it was wonderful to be able to personally convey to them condolences and all of the help that they're going to get.

RADDATZ: An assurance from Mayor Riley is an assurance from all of Charleston. In office since 1975, he is the face of this city and in his powerful message at Friday's vigil, he spoke of unity for everyone.

RILEY: But if that young man thought he was going to divide this community or divide this country with his racial hatred, we are here today and all across America resoundingly say he miserably failed.


RADDATZ: Tell me what it was like addressing your city, addressing those people who are so hurt?

RILEY: What I saw was something very heartwarming, it was a mixed race audience, black and white, singing and praying together.

RADDATZ: Yet, racial tensions have been high in this city, just two months ago, video showing white officer Michael Slager shooting unarmed African-American Walter Scott in the back sparked protests.

One man who tried to calm that anger, also one of Wednesday's shooting victims, Reverend Clementa Pinckney, state representative and beloved leader of Mother Emanuel church.

CLEMANTA PINKNEY, SOUTH CAROLINA STATE SENATOR: Our hearts go out to the Scott family, our hearts go out to the Flagler family, because the lord teaches us to love all. And we pray that over time that justice be done.

RADDATZ: Justice has not always had a place in Charleston. We met historian, John Hale, at one of city's docks, where slave ships brought millions in chains.

JON HALE, COLLEGE OF CHARLESTON: The history of Charleston is built upon the backs of slaves and the slave trade.

RADDATZ: And South Carolina was the first state of the confederacy, a place where segregation ran deep.

What does that history do to this city?

HALE: Well, the history frames how we understand race. While a lot of progress has been made, there's still institutional remnants in our systems of education, the economy.

RADDATZ: Why do you think the killer chose Charleston, chose that church?

HALE: It embodies a history of resistance.

RADDATZ: Over the years, Emanuel AME has been closed by law and burned down, but its determined congregants have always rebuilt their sanctuary.

That forward momentum is something Kevin Alexander Gray embraces. He's a community activist who believes there's still a long way to go.

KEVIN ALEXANDER GRAY, COMMUNITY ACTIVIST: You hope that the Millennials, that the young people will get over that, thinking that one race is superior to another.

RADDATZ: Mayor Riley shares that hopeful eye toward the future as his community begins to heal.

RILEY: We're going to help those families, we're going to help that church, that's a way of helping people move forward.

RADDATZ: And helping you. That action has to help you feel better.

RILEY: It helps me a lot.


RADDATZ: Our thanks to Mayor Riley.

Much more from Charleston ahead. The intense debate, was this an act of terror?

And Ferguson, Baltimore, now Charleston, is there a link?

ANNOUNCER: THIS WEEK with George Stephanopoulos brought to you by Xerox.


RADDATZ: Next: was this shooting an act of terrorism?

But first, a librarian, a grandmother, a reverend, a recent college grad, all among the nine killed in the Charleston tragedy, who we pause now to remember.




RADDATZ: As police continue their investigation this morning, the nation is once again taking a hard look at racism and violence in America.

I'm joined now by "The New Yorker" staff writer and University of Connecticut professor, Jelani Cobb. He was in Ferguson, then in Baltimore during the Freddie Gray riots and now he's with us here in Charleston.

Also with me is journalist Charlayne Hunter-Gault, who was born in South Carolina and who was the first African-American woman to enroll at the University of Georgia.

Thanks so much, both of you, for joining us.


RADDATZ: Jelani, I want to start with you. One of the things you said about this tragedy and you have written so beautifully this week is that language matters, what do you mean by that?

JELANI COBB, WRITER AND PROFESSOR AT UNIVERSITY OF CONNECTICUT: So, we've talked about this in a lot of ways, we've said that it was a horrible incident and we kind of euphemized and even as horrible as it is, we can say a tragedy. But this is an act of terrorism.

And we, like just as we had this debate we saw in 2012, Mitt Romney was going back and forth, you know, about whether or not the president called what happened in Benghazi terrorism or he tried to evade what that actually was, this is something that qualifies.

When you go through the PATRIOT Act and see how it describes acts of terrorism and everything about that comports to what we saw here. And I think that we have to be up front and honest and call it that.

RADDATZ: You also write, "The fact that Dylann Roof appears to have acted without accomplices will inevitably be taken as solace. He will be dismissed as a deranged loner, connected to nothing broader. This is untrue. Even if he acted by himself, he was not alone."

COBB: Right. You know, he -- there is a tradition of this and, so, we look at the history of this country and we understand that there's a great deal of terrorism that, you know, has been -- has taken place since the foundation of it and that African-Americans have been on the receiving end of that terror.

And so he is part of a lineage and part of a tradition that is deeply rooted in American history. And so we can't -- even if he acted alone, he's standing on the shoulders of the people who committed atrocities before him.

RADDATZ: And Charlayne, your history is quite incredible, the first African-American woman to enroll in the University of Georgia.

As a young woman, you have watched the civil rights movement, you have seen where we are today. It seems like there is progress --

HUNTER-GAULT: There is progress and I think that, you know, when we have horrible situations like this, people tend to focus on just that and not on the progress.

I wouldn't be sitting here, having had the experiences I've had, starting at "The New Yorker," where Jelani now works and many other signs of progress, just not my own.

But I just want to say, what Jelani just talked about, what worries me about all of this is that this young man, who currently stands to have murdered so many people in such a horrific way, was not born when apartheid was the governing creed of South Africa. He wasn't born during the era of Rhodesia.

So my question is, where does that come from?

And as Jelani says, there's a history here that we need to take into account, history of African-American -- African --


RADDATZ: What about young people? You're writing a book about Millennials, you lived through this. You lived through this. They haven't, as you have said. And certainly Dylann Roof didn't live through that.

But what about young African Americans?

What should they be doing?

HUNTER-GAULT: Well, I think we all -- young and old, African Americans, white people, Asian people -- everybody who is a part of this nation, as well as what Martin Luther King called a global community, needs to be looking at our history.

Our schools are not teaching our history and so most of our young people will not even recognize what the apartheid symbol in this young man's life meant.

We have to teach them and we also have to teach them the history of struggle and how we overcame and so that we can continue to stand up to people who have these kinds of attitudes.

Our young people need to know that the African Methodist Episcopal Church was one where we have always -- I come out of that church. My father was a minister. My grandfather was a minister in that church. We have always fought back inequality and inferiority and said, we are first class.

RADDATZ: Thank you so much, Charlayne.

Thank you so much, Jelani.

Ahead -- presidential candidate Rick Santorum is right here in Charleston with us, weighing in on that debate over the Confederate flag.

Is it time to take it down?

Plus, Jeb jumps in and so does Donald Trump. All the latest on that growing 2016 field, coming up next.




BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: Let's be clear, at some point, we, as a country, will have to reckon with the fact that this type of mass violence does not happen in other advanced countries and it is in our power to do something about it. I say that recognizing the politics in this Senate foreclose a lot of those avenues right now.


RADDATZ: President Obama reacting to the tragedy here in Charleston. Like other mass shootings, this tragedy has reignited so many political debates.

And here to dig into all of that, former GOP senator, and current presidential candidate, Rick Santorum.

Welcome, Senator Santorum.


RADDATZ: You called the shooting a crime of hate. You said it was racially motivated.

Should it be considered an act of terrorism?

SANTORUM: I don't think there's any question when someone comes into a -- a church for the reasons of -- of racism and hate that they're trying to -- they're trying to terrorize people. I mean, no, I don't think there's any question this is an act of terrorism and it's -- it's as purely evil as we've -- as we've seen in this country in a long, long time.

RADDATZ: So you would like to see those federal charges brought against him?

SANTORUM: Well, federal charges, state charges, there's certainly plenty of charges here. Whether -- whether they're federal or state charges really doesn't matter. This -- this -- this young man is going to get justice served on him.

RADDATZ: You heard President Obama there say, by one count, this was the 14th time he's had to respond to a mass shooting. If you don't think any gun control measures are a solution, what do you think we, as a nation, should to do stop this reoccurring?

SANTORUM: Yes. What I -- what I saw here in Charleston over the last few days, to me, has given me more hope than any -- anything that I've seen in a long time. The way the people in this community, the victims' families, that bond hearing, I -- if I were a pastor in a church today, I'd play that bond hearing, those -- of those family members getting up and -- and showing true forgiveness, showing that -- that -- how the pain of what this young man did to their families and then being able to forgive.

I mean we saw here in Charleston, right here, within 24 hours, the worst of America and the best of America. And I think that gives hope.

I mean the -- the real sense that we have -- we have people here who -- who understand that the way to overcome all of this horrible violence is through a -- through reconciliation.

RADDATZ: But -- but not everybody responds that way. You, in 2002, said the country still had a simmering problem in America when it comes to race.

Do you still believe that?

SANTORUM: Oh, I think it's...

RADDATZ: And -- and what do you do for the people who aren't responding?

SANTORUM: I would just say that, again, the -- the best answer is showing the humanity of -- I mean who -- who -- who comes out looking better in this -- in this entire -- to the world, who looks better...

RADDATZ: What if...

SANTORUM: And that's -- and that's really the key here.

RADDATZ: -- what about the Confederate flag?

You saw Mitt Romney's Tweet, I'm sure, bring down the flag. Jeb Bush has said bring down that flag.

Should they bring down that flag?

SANTORUM: You know, I -- I take the position that the federal government really has no role in determining what the states are going to do.

RADDATZ: You're a candidate for president.

SANTORUM: I'm also...

RADDATZ: Do you not have a position on this at all?

SANTORUM: I'm -- I'm not a South Carolinian. And -- and I think this is a decision...

RADDATZ: It's beyond South Carolina, don't you think?

SANTORUM: I would say that these are decisions that should be made by -- by people -- you know, I don't think the federal government or federal candidates should be making decisions on everything and -- and opining on everything. This is a decision that needs to be made here in South Carolina. I have -- like everybody else, I have my opinion.

But I think the opinion of people here in South Carolina and having them work through this difficulty is much more important than politicizing it.

RADDATZ: But -- but what is your opinion?

SANTORUM: Well, again, it's -- my opinion is that we should let the people of South Carolina go through the process of making this decision.

RADDATZ: OK. And just very quickly, a little campaign politics. We saw Donald Trump officially jump into the race this week.

Do you take his candidacy seriously and can you see him on the debate stage, perhaps, instead of you?

SANTORUM: Well, I have the affliction of liking Donald Trump. I have gotten to know Donald over the last several years. And I he's a good man.

And, you know, four years ago at the end of my campaign, I talked about what a wonderful experience it was running for president. And I quipped that everyone should run for president.

RADDATZ: Does he change -- oh, there you go.

SANTORUM: Little did I know that people would take me up on it.

And it looks like everybody is running for president.

You know what, it's not a bad thing. It's not a bad thing to have a whole bunch of different points of view out there running for president.

RADDATZ: Thanks very much, Senator Santorum.

On that note, we'll go to my colleague Jon Karl now in Washington with more on all the big political news this morning -- Jon.

JONATHAN KARL, ABC NEWS CHIEF WHITE HOUSE CORRESPONDENT: Thanks, Martha. We'll get straight to it, bring in the roundtable. We have NPR's morning edition host Steve Inskeep, Democratic strategist Maria Cardona and Republican strategist Sara Fagen.

So, Steve, let's get to this debate on the flag, which wasn't a big issue in the last Republican primary, but Mitt Romney has put it out there, strong statement, bring it down. What is going to happen with the party of Lincoln on this issue?

STEVE INSKEEP, NPR: Well, let's talk about this. It's always a perilous thing to do, Jon, to look at one individual who does something like this and ask what are the larger ramifications. People really can take advantage of that.

But in this case, you have a young man who's been associated with this online manifesto, in which he talks about current events and the broader racial discussion in the country, so that puts it on the table and you have conservatives, including Romney and others, who are increasingly saying, this is problem for conservatives, because conservatives want to make state's rights arguments and they are discredited when they are associated with this flag, because confederates were effectively making state's rights arguments over slavery generations ago.

There's increasingly, it seems to me, an urge to get that out of the way so that Republicans can make their arguments on the issues rather than the past.

KARL: But Sara, do you think, are we going to see Republican candidates dance around this? I mean, even Jeb Bush didn't quite -- Jeb Bush said I took it down in Florida.

SARA FAGEN, REPUBLICAN STRATEGIST: He was the strongest so far.

KARL: I think South Carolina will do the right thing.

But, he didn't come right out and say South Carolina should bring it down.

FAGEN: He didn't. And I think what you're going to see is most of these candidates push this back as a state's rights issue, which in many regards I think what Rick Santorum said was right, which is federal candidates don't have to have an opinion on every state's issue.

KARL: Yeah, but this is going to be an issue debated in South Carolina.

FAGEN: It's going to be an issue debated in South Carolina. And I think it's important to remind folks this was somewhat settled in 2000 when this flag was moved to the grounds of the capitol, it used to fly over the capitol.

KARL: Yeah, but it still flies on state grounds, that's the issue now.

MARIA CARDONA, DEMOCRATIC STRATEGIST: Clearly it's not settled, because of the symbol that this represents. This is a divisive symbol. It represents all of the hatred that's focused on racism in this country for so many people, including what just happened in South Carolina.

I commend that Mitt Romney. I wish every single Republican candidate would have to guts to come actually out and say what needs to happen. And I frankly think, it would help the Republican Party moving forward, because they do have a problem with inclusiveness, with tolerance. And for a Republican Party that wants to reach the White House, that needs lots more percentage of voters, minorities, Latinos, African Americans, women, this is something that they need to get out of the way so, that like Steve said, they can focus on the issues.

FAGEN: I do think it's clearly a symbol of pain for a lot of African-Americans and I do think sparty leaders need to think about that as we have this debate.

Having said that...

KARL: And as you see that shot of Dylann Roof holding the confederate flag.

FAGEN: But having said that, I also it's important in this debate, while emotions are high right now, to acknowledge that not every southerner who's a Caucasian looks at that as a symbol of racism, they look at it through a different lens. And I think that that's also important to point out.

CARDONA: But I think also here what leaders can do is take it off state grounds, right? The government doesn't need to be sanctioning this and that is the issue with the confederate flag.

FAGEN: And Jeb Bush said that. Put it in the museum.

KARL: Which is exactly what President Obama said.

CARDONA: But he should have gone further to say let's take it down.

INSKEEP: And it's fair we've heard some voices earlier in the program fromSouth Carolina on both sides of the issue essentially saying outsiders can't resolve this, South Carolina has to resolve this. So it is perhaps fair for someone like Santorum to say give them some space.

KARL: OK, I want to move on to the other, this was a big week in terms of 2016. And one thing -- you know, we had the big announcements, Trump and Jeb Bush. But Bernie Sanders was in case the story, take a look at some scenes from Bernie Sanders this week.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Bernie Sanders, our future and our next president.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE; What an inspiration.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: I couldn't find one single thing I disagreed with.


KARL: I mean, I have to say, watching all these candidates, I don't think we have seen more enthusiasm for any candidate, Democrat or Republican, than we have seen for Bernie Sanders. So, Maria, what is going on if we have a situation -- Hillary Clinton supposed to be coronation here, she now finds all of the energy in the Democratic primary is now with a 73-year-old self-described socialist from Vermont.

CARDONA: The media has always thought this was going to be a coronation. The Clinton campaign has never thought that this was going to be a coronation, and that's why she's fighting to earn every single vote.

Look, Bernie is from a neighboring state. We shouldn't be surprised that there is so much enthusiasm for him. And in fact, we shouldn't be surprised if he does very well in New Hampshire or in Iowa, and perhaps even wins.

I think this is good for the Democratic Party, Jonathan, especially because Democrats also did not want a coronation. Ultimately, as a Hillary supporter, I think she will be the nominee, but she will be that much better of a nominee and that much better of a general election candidate, because of Bernie.

FAGEN: The little discussed fact in the politics today is that the democratic base has moved much farther to the left than the Republican base has moved to the right. And that's a fact over the last two decades.

He is saying what many Democratic activists what to hear, which is why his crowds are big not only New Hampshire, but also in Iowa, and pretty much wherever he goes.

I think this is a real challenge for Mrs. Clinton. He's not going to be the nominee, but he's going to cause her an incredible headache and move her to the left and potentially make her unelectable in a general election.

INSKEEP: A bit of history comes to mind. In 1992, Pat Buchanan challengedthe first President Bush, never got anywhere close to him as I recall in the primaries, but he was getting votes...

KARL: In New Hampshire he got like...

INSKEEP: ...31 percent.

Exactly, so it's like, wow, he got a third of the vote. He was crushed in that primary, but nevertheless it was seen as a sign of weakness for President Bush. And so, the risk for Hillary Clinton is she is seen as weak.

CARDONA: But let's also remember no Democrat has broken 40 percent inIowa unless you are from there or unless you are an incumbent or VP.

So, again, I think expectations need to be tamped down here.

KARL: You're bringing down the expectations. I have -- we're almost out of time, but we had the two big announcements, Trump and Jeb Bush. And if you looked at the sentiment online and the discussions online, Trump was everywhere.

CARDONA: Well, Trump was everywhere...

KARL: What kind of impact is he going to have on this race?

CARDONA: I think that he unfortunately for the Republican Party really cheapens the discourse of this debate, because, look, there's going to be really tense moments in this race, but none of these candidates, with the exception ofTrump, are going to refer to each other as losers, crooks, liars, any number of other insults. And he really is just about the sound bite and getting on the news.

KARL: I mean, he actually even criticized Bush for not wearing a tie.

Anyway, that -- we're out of time. Thank you to the roundtable.

We'll be back with Martha in Charleston in just 30 seconds.


RADDATZ: And we are back in Charleston, Mother Emanuel Church reopening this morning for the first time, the church at capacity, a crowd gathered outside the church as well listening on loud speakers. Brother Robert Sanders welcoming the crowd in earlier, saying that in spite of the events of the week, we are reminded that we serve a god who still cares.

Let's listen in.


RADDATZ (voice-over): I was inside that church just a short time ago; the grace of those parishioners, the grace of this city, coming together, is incredible.

And now I'm going to toss it back to you, Jon, in Washington.


KARL: Steve, what do you think watching that scene?

OSUNSAMI: It's a very simple scene, a very moving scene and it reminds me of the way that the victims' families, as we heard earlier in the program, have been offering forgiveness to the accused shooter here and, even, it was amazing to me earlier in the hour, hearing victims' families, who were apologetic if they couldn't quite get all the way to forgiveness yet. That's just deeply moving. And this simply adds to that, these images we're seeing here.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): And the way that the whole community has responded to this.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I think that's exactly right. And I think all of us, especially in the political world, when some of our political discourse can get out of hand, we need to learn from these families and we need to learn from these victims, it is just humbling.

As a Catholic myself, I'm getting ready to go to church after this, this is going to be something that I'm sure all of us are going to be -- is going to weighing on us today and for the next several weeks.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): Simply beautiful. And we can all learn a lot from the way that this community has handled itself in the way of aftermath of just horrific hate.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): And the victims' families expressing, as you point out, Steve, apologizing for their own anger.

OSUNSAMI(voice-over): Yes.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Even as they're expressing forgiveness as well.


OSUNSAMI(voice-over): It's a powerful moment. It's also a historic church of course, as we've heard throughout the last several days. It is connected, among other things, to a man named Denmark Vesey, who was linked with a slave revolt, an attempt at a slave revolt in 1822 and was hanged.

It's a reminder that Dylann Roof may have been trolling through his version of history, but we all are here, we are, at this moment in a very long American story, it's a very powerful moment. It's no accident that we're talking here about the Confederate flag in South Carolina.

This is something that should prompt us all to think not merely about the act of this man but about the history of this country and the way that it's evolved.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE (voice-over): I think that this also, I think, focuses, to Steve's point, on what an amazing country this is.


UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That we can go through this and, as leaders and as people who are involved in politics, we can take from this all the positive attitudes from the victims' families and everybody in South Carolina in such a difficult moment.

I looked at all of the talk of forgiveness and I even put myself in that position, I was like, could I even do that?

And I think as leaders in politics we need to take that and, moving forward, figure out how it is that we can now unify the country, talk about all these very difficult issues -- and they are very difficult, issues of race and intolerance. But we can do this. This is the greatness of this country.

KARL: And Charleston is -- becomes a symbol here, I mean, one thing you heard from mayor and you heard from a lot of folks down there is, he wasn't from here. You know, Dylann Roof was not from here. This is not us.

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: That's right. And it's such a beautiful community. And one of the things that I have always loved about the African American community is just how strong faith plays into their lives. And you see that on display today.

KARL: All right. And we'll be right back with Martha from Charleston with an inspiring Father's Day story.


RADDATZ: In this morning's "Sunday Spotlight," a Father's Day inspiration. The man behind the famous ice bucket challenge has sparked a powerful movement to help fight the terrible disease, ALS.

We featured him as one of our game-changers on THIS WEEK and ESPN has been following his courageous efforts from the start. Here's ESPN's Tom Rinaldi with this dad's new mission.


UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): Frates is swinging the bat with an awful lot of confidence.

TOM RINALDI, ESPN CORRESPONDENT (voice-over): We first shared Pete Frates' story last summer.

UNIDENTIFIED MALE (voice-over): And that is hit high and deep!

RINALDI (voice-over): A captain of the Boston College baseball team, Frates graduated in 2007.

And five years later, at 27, he was diagnosed with ALS or Lou Gehrig's disease.

PETE FRATES, BOSTON COLLEGE: For a young guy like myself to be diagnosed, hopefully, I can use my youth and the networks that I'm party of to promote some awareness.

RINALDI (voice-over): By the time Frates took the ice bucket challenge himself last summer, unable to walk or talk --

UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Are you ready for this?

RINALDI (voice-over): The initiative had raised more than $100 million for ALS.

Less than a month later, Pete and Julie Frates became parents to daughter Lucy.

PETE FRATES (voice-over): Fatherhood means everything to me. It is my driving force to keep battling every day so that one day I will be able to see Lucy grow into a wonderful, beautiful woman.

JULIE FRATES, PETE'S WIFE: He is in so many ways such a great husband, but he's an even better father. And I knew he would be. But to see him with her was really incredible.

RINALDI (voice-over): Pete is not the only father in the house. In 2012, shortly after the diagnosis, as Pete's physical struggle was beginning, John Frates quit his job as a financial planner to become his son's full-time caregiver.

JOHN FRATES, PETE'S FATHER: I said, I cannot continue working, pretending that this is not going on. I'm here for him.

PETE FRATES: All right, you want to hold my hand real quick, I'll stand.


PETE FRATES (voice-over): The most important role my father played post-diagnosis was just that he was still Dad. He loved and cared for me unconditionally.

JOHN FRATES: He now is on life support and the only reason he is doing this is hope.

The ice bucket money, we hope, is going to produce a treatment. His whole essence, his whole being is hope that he can see and be around for his daughter.

RINALDI (voice-over): Two fathers, one loving his son, the other cherishing his daughter. Father's Day, every day.


RADDATZ: A great message. Our thanks to ESPN's Tom Rinaldi, he'll have much more on Pete Frates' inspiring mission later today on "SportsCenter."

That's all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "WORLD NEWS TONIGHT" for the latest news on the Charleston tragedy.

And we leave you with a look at the powerful service happening right now inside the Emanuel AME Church.


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