Washington, DC, Oct. 20, 2013 -- A rush transcript of "This Week with George Stephanopoulos" airing on Sunday morning, October 20, 2013 on ABC News is below.
MARTHA RADDATZ, HOST: Good morning. Welcome to This Week.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
BARACK OBAMA, PRESIDENT OF THE UNITED STATES: How business is done in this town has to change.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: After two weeks of complete chaos, Washington finally gets its act together, ending the shutdown crisis. But with new deadlines looming, what's to keep it from happening again? Is Washington broken beyond repair? This morning, tough questions for all sides. Democratic leader, Nancy Pelosi, Tea Party hero Ted Cruz, and GOP star Jeb Bush.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON, FRM. U.S. SECRETARY OF STATE: Recently in Washington unfortunately we have seen examples of the wrong kind of leadership.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Hillary back on the campaign trail, the powerhouse round table looks ahead to 2016 and takes on a stunning week in politics. It's all right here this Sunday morning.
ANNOUNCER: From ABC News, This Week with George Stephanopoulos starts now.
Hello again, I'm Martha Raddatz. George is off today. Great to have you with us. I'm here with ABC's Jon Karl and Jeff Zeleny.
And let's show that moment again. There it was yesterday, Hillary Clinton taking the stage, talking about leadership and the state of politics, her first explicitly political event in more than four years.
When you see that moment, Jon Karl, how can you think anything but that she's running?
JON KARL, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: You really can't. And I'll tell you she may not have told anybody yet that she's running, but those that have supported her, worked for her in the past are 100 percent convinced she's going to do it again.
RADDATZ: It sure looks like it. We have lots more to cover this morning including what's next now that the government shutdown is over.
But first to news breaking overnight, those two convicted murderers in Florida who incredibly forged their way out of jail, now back behind bars after being captured last night in Panama City.
Our own Steve Osunsami is there. Good morning, Steve.
STEVE OSUNSAMI, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Good morning, Martha.
It was like a scene out of a movie, police racing to this motel in Panama City, finally catching up to those convicted killers who according to authorities had been here since Wednesday. Police say they surrendered without incident, came out with their hands up.
It has been a long journey for these two. First, forging their way out of a prison here with fake documents, including a forged judge's signature ordering their release early. They were serving life sentences without parole and somehow they were released.
This has been a shame for the law enforcement officials and the legal system in Florida in general. And there have been calls for changes to the system in terms of how those orders are processed.
This morning these two men are in a county jail here and are expected to be handed over to corrections officials and could be back in prison as soon as today -- Martha.
RADDATZ: Thanks, Steve. Incredible story.
And before we get to Leader Pelosi, Senator Cruz, Governor Bush, let's bring back our chief White House correspondent Jonathan Karl and our senior Washington correspondent Jeff Zeleny.
And Jon, let me start with you. There were really no winners, according to President Obama, inthe government shutdown in having it re-open but he will make some gains he seems to think. How does he do that? How does he continue forward?
KARL: Well, look, the big thing here is after the downgrade in 2011 the president brought in senior staff and said we are not going to do this again. We have to end government by crisis. So he drew the line, a red line if you will, Martha, on this, that he wasn't going to debate over the debt ceiling. He managed to break it. The Republicans gave it entirely.
Now the question is what does he do with it? He's still five years in almost, does not have a bipartisan legislative accomplishment. Is he finally now going to be able to work with the Republicans on something? Big question.
RADDATZ: And that question to you, Jeff Zeleny. Are the Republicans willing to work with him suddenly now?
JEFF ZELENY, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Well, that is the real question. Was there a lesson learned? Did Republicans learn their lesson? And it depends who you talk to. If you talk to Senator Ted Cruz, as Jon did, he says we are going to fight again, a shutdown was worth it. But not Mitch McConnell. The leader of Republicans in the Senate, he says a shutdown will not happen again.
So the sense that I get from talking to so many Republicans across the board is that they know this hurt the brand of the party. They know that they must come to some type of an agreement here.
But the argument is still the same. Republicans do not want to give on taxes and Democrats don't want to give on entitlements. So, we're nearly in the same position but it's a smaller deal we're talking about. So I think they'll work something out. I don't think there will be another shutdown.
RADDATZ: A bit of a rerun, Jon?
KARL: Yeah, I think so. And there's also a question, a lot of Democrats want to hit the Republicans while they're down. They see a chance for another wave election in 2014, that's not really something that, you know, would say compromise is in the air.
RADDATZ: Thank you, Jon. Thank you, Jeff. We'll look forward to it.
And now let's welcome the House Democratic Leader, Congresswoman Nancy Pelosi. Welcome, Leader Pelosi.
PELOSI: Good morning.
RADDATZ: We sit here after two outrageous weeks. I know you can blame Republicans for this, but Americans look at what happened, most of them, with disgust. They blame all of congress. What responsibility do you bear to move Washington forward, to change the mood in Washington, to make the American people proud again?
PELOSI: Well, I join the American people in their disgust at what happened in terms of the shutdown of government, that's an unthinkable tactic to use in the political debate.
But I will say that I'm very proud of my House Democrats and the Senate Democrats as well. In September, we said to the speaker, we don't like the number that you have put forth, but we will give you 100 percent of the Democratic votes in order for you to bring it to the floor and pass it no matter what the votes are on your side. We think that will produce a majority. And they stood there before the shutdown and then almost every day after on the steps of the Capitol signing letters and signing petitions to say bring it to the floor.
We don't like the bill, we think it's too low a number but nonetheless it is the number. The president accepted their number. The Senate accepted their number. The House Democrats accepted.
The only people who did not accept the Republican budget number were the Republican Housemembers. And that is...
RADDATZ: But let's look forward. How do you change the tone? And President Obama even said this week that he wants the tone changed and yet you are saying things like the Republicans are throwing temper tantrums, they're reckless. How does that move things forward?
PELOSI: Well, the fact is that it's really important for the American people to have transparency on this. All of this was then, it wasn't two weeks. It was two weeks and two days. And that's a very big -- again, every single day was a hardship. And it cost our economy, according to Standard and Poor's $25 billion.
RADDATZ: But you haven't told me what you will do or why something will be different.
PELOSI: I'm going to. If I may, Martha, I'm predicating it on we cannot go into a daily free zone. We have to stipulate to a certain set of facts, that a shutdown was a bad thing all around.
And again, everybody looks bad when something like this happens. I'm not saying we all came out -- I agree with the president, there are no winners in this. Because the American people had to lose $25 billion in our economy.
So either the Republicans didn't know or didn't care about those consequences. I believe they do care.
So we have to have facts as we go forward. We have to have common sense as we go forward. We have to go to the table understanding that we cannot shut down and we cannot place in doubt the full faith and credit of the United States of America.
But we do have to recognize that among those on the Republican side are those who are anti-government ideologues and they cannot wag this dog. And they cannot wag this dog. They cannot wag this dog.
RADDATZ: I want to talk about the rollout of Obamacare, which seemed somehow disastrous as well. About 500,000 applications were taken and yet there were so many glitches. It was really beyond glitches. People said they couldn't get on the web site, they couldn't do anything right. Is this acceptable?
PELOSI: Well, before we go to that I want to finish on the budget. What I'm proposing to our colleagues in the House and the Senate is let's not have this go until January, let us try to figure out until Thanksgiving, the end of November, let's engineer back from there, go to the table, respectful of the fact that this will have to be a compromise, not a principle, but a...
RADDATZ: You think that's possible that they will actually do it before the holidays?
PELOSI: Well, I think it has to be because in terms of our economy, consumer confidence, confidence in the markets, as we go to the end of the year, we don't need this. It's not necessary.
RADDATZ: Can you quickly comment on the Obamacare. Is that acceptable?
PELOSI: As far as the Affordable Care Act as I call it, the fact is that, yes, what happened is unacceptable in terms of the glitches. They were overwhelmed to begin with. There is much that needs to be done to correct the situation, but 19 million people, 19 million people, unique visits.
RADDATZ: Do you think the Republicans are going to use what happened as a weapon?
PELOSI: I don't know what they do because it doesn't matter. This has to be fixed but what doesn't have to be fixed is the fact that tens of millions more people will have access to affordable, quality health care that no longer having a preexisting medical condition will bar you from getting affordable care, that all of the initiatives that are very positive for a healthier life, liberty to pursue your happiness not chained to a policy but following your passion, all of that is in place.
This is unacceptable. It has to be changed, but any system that deals with that many millions of people frequently does have a glitch. Again this is unacceptable. It must be fixed. They've doubled up on telephoning, all navigators, assisters to help --
RADDATZ: Quickly on Hillary Clinton. Do you see any way she's not going to run?
PELOSI: I hope she runs.
RADDATZ: Given what she said this weekend?
PELOSI: No, I was on a plane going home and coming back. I saw that she appeared in Virginia, and that -- for Terry McAuliffe.
RADDATZ: First political comments in four years. She's got to run, right?
PELOSI: (Inaudible) say if Hillary Clinton does run, she'll be one of the best prepared people and she will win, I believe, if she runs. She'll be one of the best prepared people to enter the White House in a long time. She will -- she would be a great president. I would -- it would be a very thrilling thing for our country. She happens to be a woman, but she's, first and foremost, extremely qualified.
RADDATZ: And finally, if you will, a few quick thoughts on the passing of former Speaker of the House Tom Foley, who died at age 84 on Friday.
What lessons can you learn, what lessons can the country learn from him?
PELOSI: Well, Tom Foley was a statesman and it was a privilege to serve under him when he was the Speaker of the House. He loved our country. He was a gentleman. I had the privilege of seeing him a couple days before he passed away.
I feel very honored that his wife, Heather, allowed that, and I sent her my condolences. That same day we also lost Bill Young, a revered member of Congress. He was my chairman on Appropriations. I send my condolences to Beverly as well.
RADDATZ: We'll have a little more on them both later. Thanks so much for joining us, Leader Pelosi.
And now to the GOP. There has been a lot of talk about the rift between the Republican Party that the shutdown has exposed.
"The New York Times" this morning calling it a civil war, and Jon Karl is back with us.
Jon, you explored that civil war with two Republicans this week.
KARL: That's right, Martha. I talked to two high profile Republicans, both are potential presidential candidates, both are, no doubt about it, conservatives. But as you'll see, they represent opposite sides of this battle for the future of the Republican Party.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: The deal was a terrible deal. The Washington establishment sold the American people down the river. It provided no relief for the millions of people who are hurting because of ObamaCare, but it is worth also focusing on what did happen because a lot, I think, was accomplished in the last couple of months.
Number one, the public debate over the harms that ObamaCare is inflicting, it elevated the public debate. And that is critically important.
KARL: People hated this shutdown, they hated this impasse and this was seen as the Ted Cruz shutdown. You more than any single individual were seen as the one that triggered this crisis to begin with.
CRUZ: Jon, I agree that a lot of D.C. politicians tried to call it that and a lot of the media did, too. But --
KARL: We're talking about public opinion nationally.
CRUZ: But look, I -- I -- let me be very clear. I said throughout this, we shouldn't have a shutdown. I don't want a shutdown. I repeatedly voted to open the government.
KARL: But there never would have been a shutdown if you hadn't gone with the strategy of saying we're not even going to fund the government for six weeks --
CRUZ: And you know what?
KARL: -- unless we can defund ObamaCare.
CRUZ: -- you know what, John, there never would have been a shutdown if Harry Reid and President Obama hadn't said we will not compromise, we will not negotiate, shut the government down.
KARL: How much do your colleagues just despise you right now on the floor? I mean, I hear some really strong language from your own fellow Republican senators.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
SEN. JOHN MCCAIN (R), ARIZ.: I think it's obvious that we are now seeing the end of this agonizing odyssey. It's one of the more shameful chapters that I have seen.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
CRUZ: Listen --
KARL: You made -- you made some enemies in this battle.
CRUZ: There is an old saying that politics, it ain't beanbag. And you know, I'm not serving in office because I desperately needed 99 new friends in the U.S. Senate. Given the choice between being reviled in Washington, D.C., and appreciated in Texas, or reviled in Texas and appreciated in Washington, I would take the former 100 out of 100 times.
KARL: You did a radio interview where you compared Senate Republicans to an Air Force going over and bombing their own troops, bombing conservatives, bombing House conservatives.
(BEGIN AUDIO CLIP)
CRUZ: And when you have got half the Senate Republican caucus firing their cannons at the House Republicans, it sabotages the effort.
(END AUDIO CLIP)
CRUZ: The reason this deal, the lousy deal was reached is because, unfortunately, Senate Republicans made the choice not to support House Republicans.
KARL: You're saying more than that, though. You're saying not only did they not support House conservatives, that they attacked House conservatives as Republicans.
CRUZ: Well, and I think that was unfortunate. I think it was unfortunate that you saw multiple members of the Senate Republicans going on television, attacking House conservatives, attacking the efforts to defund ObamaCare, saying it cannot win. It's a fool's errand and we will lose, this must -- this must fail.
That is a recipe for losing the fight and it's a shame. We didn't win this battle, but I am encouraged that we have demonstrated when the American people stand up, the House of Representatives will listen and I hope in time the Senate will listen also.
KARL: What next? We have another deadline, government funding runs out on January 15th.
Will you rule out pushing to the brink of another shutdown by saying you would block funding for the government unless ObamaCare is defunded?
Will you do that again?
CRUZ: I would do anything and I will continue to do anything I can to stop the train wreck that is ObamaCare.
What I intend to do is continue standing with the American people to work to stop ObamaCare, because it isn't working. It's costing people's jobs and it's taking away their health care.
KARL (voice-over): But Cruz continues to be under fire from members of his own party, including former Florida Governor Jeb Bush, who told us the tactics that Cruz championed caused Republicans to lose ground.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: I just want to ask you, this shutdown is over. We're back from the brink. No default.
Was there anything gained in all of this?
BUSH: No. I think there was some ground lost from the political point of view.
KARL: And this started with Republicans, mostly in the House, saying that they wanted to gut ObamaCare and they were willing to not fund the government until that happened. I mean, they changed their position a little bit as it went along.
But I mean, how badly are Republicans hurt by all this? It started with their strategy.
BUSH: Tactically it was a mistake to focus on something that couldn't be achieved. That's what that was, it was tactics. In fact, I would argue that allowing ObamaCare to be implemented, two things would happen.
One, it would be so dysfunctional if it was implemented faithfully that it would be clear for more people. Or it would -- it couldn't be implemented because the government is not capable of doing it.
It looks like that, the latter rather than the former, may be happening, but that was all crowded out by a miscalculation of using something that shouldn't be used, the debt ceiling limit and the continuation of the budget.
KARL: What do you think when you see these guys, your own party coming out and saying the debt ceiling, we don't necessarily need to raise that? I mean...
BUSH: Well, you have to pay your obligations. The -- I do a lot of traveling overseas and when we have these spikes of political conversations that are not grounded in reality, the rest of the world looks at us as untrustworthy. That has implications not just for us, slowdown of economic activity, it has implications in the world because people have to count on the United States.
And if we're behaving this way, it makes it harder to do so.
So now look, I'm not -- I want to make sure everybody understands, I'm not blaming Republicans. I think we have a systemic problem in Washington right now and the void of leadership is making it harder to get to a better place.
The better place would be that, with civility, have a dialogue about the bigger, more pressing issues and try to find common ground rather than use each instance of a -- you know, a possible crisis to win a political point. We need to start solving problems and I think the president does not deserve credit in this either.
KARL: But I just spoke to Ted Cruz and he was the guy who said, hey, let's not agree to a funding resolution unless ObamaCare is defunded. That was the strategy that really kicked it off and he told me that he will now do anything he can to stop ObamaCare and he does not rule out pushing to the brink once again.
What would your message be to Ted Cruz?
BUSH: Well, frankly, I think the best way to repeal ObamaCare is to have an alternative. We never hear the alternative. We could do this in a much lower cost with improved quality based on our principles, free market principles, and two, show how ObamaCare, flawed to its core, doesn't work.
So have a little bit of self-restraint. It might actually be a politically better approach to see the massive dysfunction. But we don't even hear about that because we've stepped on that message. And I think Republicans need to just take a step back and allow -- show a little self-restraint and let this happen a little more organically.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Our thanks to Jon Karl and we'll have much more with Jon and Governor Bush a bit later.
Coming up our powerhouse roundtable, ready to weigh in on those interviews and break down a stunning week in politics.
Plus we hit the road, checking in with Tea Party supporters in Ohio for their take.
And check out the PandaCam. With the government back open, the National Zoo's live look at its most popular resident is back online.
And we're back after this.
RADDATZ: Up next the roundtable's take on the shutdown and the new deadlines looming.
Plus much more from Jeb Bush. What's his take on 2016? That's coming up.
RADDATZ: Check out the support Tea Party star Ted Cruz is getting this week. We need more Republicans like Ted Cruz, that message spelled out by one of his constituents with styrofoam cups.
Well, polls shows most Americans blame Republicans more than the president for the shutdown, there is still significant support for Cruz's strategy.
The roundtable weighs in shortly but first we sent Byron Pitts to Lulu's Diner in Ohio to talk to a group of Tea Party supporters, an engineer, nurse, small business owner, retiree and car dealer to find out why they view the shutdown as a success.
BYRON PITTS, ABC NEWS CORRESPONDENT: Show of hands, did you support the shutdown?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Yes.
PITTS: You all agree that the shutdown was a good idea for the country. Why?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Spending has got to stop.
KIM MEYER, TEA PARTY SUPPORTER: This is something that will hopefully help people to see that there is something that needs to be done.
JUSTIN BINIK-THOMAS, TEA PARTY SUPPORTER: Let's try to sum that up with personal responsibility. When that comes to your personal budgets you make sure that what you make covers your bills.
PITTS: What about the price tag that goes with it. Some of these numbers, $24 billion economic impact, 800,000 federal workers furloughed. We all saw the images on TV of veterans denied access. So, the country was inconvenienced, yes?
TOM AHL, TEA PARTY SUPPORTER: Why did the government officials blocked those walk around monuments, that was outlandish.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: And it was unnecessary.
PITTS: So, you would agree that there was an impact in the nation for the shutdown. But you think it was worth it?
H.R. PENCE, TEA PARTY SUPPORTER: I think it was being portrayed as greater than it actually was.
SEN. TED CRUZ, (R) TEXAS: Do they really think these little barricades can keep us out?
PITTS: What would be your message to Ted Cruz?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Ted Cruz is my hero because he stood up for the American public, because I see what Obamacare is going to do and what it's going to do to this country.
PITTS: He's been wildly criticized as you know around the country.
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I honestly feel that the grassroots of America is behind him. I feel it strongly.
OBAMA: Once this agreement arrives on my desk, I will sign it immediately.
PITTS: What's your message to President Obama.
BOB THOMPSON, TEA PARTY SUPPORTER: I like President Obama. As a person, he seems like -- I would love to go play 18 holes of golf with him, I really would. I think that would be a lot of fun. But I think that, you know, he's on the other side of the equation as far as the battle of the ideas.
PITTS: So, it sounds like you all are still in the fighting mood?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: I think some of the members have become more passionate.
PITTS: Is it possible, Tom, for you to be more passionate than you are right now -- than you seem to be right now?
UNIDENTIFIED FEMALE: Yes.
PITTS: Why is that though?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Because I love America. I do. Greatest land in the world.
PITTS: And you don't feel good about where we are right now?
UNIDENTIFIED MALE: Absolutely not. So frustrated.
THOMPSON: I mean, we're having this conversation. You're sitting here in Lulu's in Ohio. We're having this conversation. That's a plus.
PITTS: So, did the shutdown accomplish anything?
THOMPSON: Sure it did. This conversation is ongoing.
RADDATZ: Our thanks to Byron.
And now let's bring in the roundtable to weigh in. Republican Congressman Adam Kinzinger from Illinois, Maryland Democratic Congresswoman Donna Edwards, Peter Baker from the New York Times, author of the new book "Days of Fire: Bush and Cheney in the White House" and ABC's Matthew Dowd.
And I want to start with you, Representative Kinzinger. Just react to what you heard from those Tea Party supporters, those are some genuine emotions.
REP. ADAM KINZINGER, (R) ILLINOIS: Oh, sure. There is a lot of passion out there. We are a country $17 trillion in debt and this has to stop.
My concern with what's going on, and we saw the interview with Ted Cruz and everything, is we're seeing conservatism in essence being redefined in this country. And it's not being redefined by Ted Cruz, it's being redefined by some of these outside groups, your Heritage Action, your Club for Growth, your Freedom Works. And you have a small group in congress that has become the surrender caucus. They've's surrendered their voting card to the wishes of these outside groups.
My voting card says Illinois 16th district and that's who I represent.
RADDATZ: Let me ask both of you, and it's essentially what I asked Nancy Pelosi, aren't you humiliated by this week. Aren't you ashamed? The country looks at congress, all of you, and they're disgusted. Are you ashamed this week? Let's start with you on that.
KINZINGER: Yeah. I mean, this has been a bad chapter from October 1st to the day we re-opened. I mean, this is -- America is the most powerful country in the world and that's something that I'm very proud to say. But when you look at what's going on -- I had a friend in Europe that just wrote me and he says I don't understand what is happening. Are you guys going to stay powerful, are you guys going to stay together and work this out? This has got to have -- it's time for us to come together. And I'm looking forward to it, because the president said if we re-open government he's coming to the negotiating table. So I'm excited to see him there.
RADDATZ: Is that possible, Representative Edwards? And we've got the Wall Street Journal saying 60 percent of people want to replace all members of congress.
REP. DONNA EDWARDS, (D) MARYLAND: Well, I understand that. But I mean, I'm proud to represent the fourth district of Maryland and an awful lot of federal workers and to join with 200 of my colleagues among Democrats who voted to reopen government and pay our bills.
What really is sad is that 62% of the Republican Caucus, I thought it was a small number. It turns out 144 members of the Republican Caucus in the House of Representatives actually voted against reopening government and paying our bills.
And so it isn't just a small group that's being driven. It's a larger group that's being driven and I think that that should concern all Americans.
RADDATZ: But everybody has to move forward. Matthew Dowd, we've got all these new deadlines. Do you have any hope that those deadlines will be met and that this won't be an exact rerun. How does Boehner handle this?
DOWD: I don't, I think we're headed towards to the same exact things. Because what they did is they bailed a little bit of water out of a sinking boat and never fixed the holes. And the holes in the boat are the dysfunction and the incredible polarization and divisiveness that exists in Washington.
I think that folks in Washington haven't come to terms with the gulf that exists between what goes on in Washington and what goes on in the rest of the country. And we could blame this on 40 Tea Party members, we can blame this on crazy stuff Ted Cruz says and does. We can blame this on a lot of people.
But the problem is that average Americans sit out there and say the federal government is not meeting my hopes, dreams and needs. Whatever partisan makeup they are in that, and they see Washington and this is where the Republicans have been, I think, really bad about this, as representing the status quo. As representing, OK that's fine we'll try to cut this but we're going to have this big government program. But we're going to do the best job we can.
And the establishment Republicans represent the status quo which gives source and oxygen to this movement out there of people that say, enough's enough, if you're going to do it the wrong way, then just as soon shut the government down. That problem has not been fixed.
RADDATZ: Peter Baker "Days of Fire" it's about Bush Cheney, it could be the title of the last two weeks.
RADDATZ: But what lessons can you learn from this book about what's happening now? What lessons could President Obama learn? What lessons could Speaker Boehner learn?
BAKER: Well that's a very good question. I think what's really interesting is that this is not George W. Bush's Republican Party right now. It's not what he would have wanted I don't think. He's staying quiet in Dallas. He's not participating in the political discourse right now.
But I think privately he talks to friends and advisers and he's really concerned about this Tea Party Movement. Even in his last years of office he talked about a growing isolationism that he spotted in the country. And the growing sort of nihilism out there that he was worried about.
And he believed, you know, he talked about compassionate conservatism. He believed in working with Democrats on some things. As much as they fought during their tenure, particularly on national security, he tried to work with Democrats on immigration, on education, on Medicare. And I think this is, as Jeb Bush's interview indicates, not the Bush way of looking at Republican politics right now.
DOWD: First Peter (inaudible) I've already started reading it and I don't know if I should because I'm reliving days--
RADDATZ: That you don't want to remember?
DOWD: That I was involved in that I don't necessarily want to go through again. But I think that the fissures that are being exposed in the Republican Party right now are not new today. They existed in 2000 when the President ran for election the first time out. He was able to cover up those fissures because of his name, he was the dominant candidate. But those fissures started to surface in the midst of that, and how do you coalesce that? And we did that in 2000 and 2004 and then they started surfacing in 2008 which is one of the reasons John McCain--
RADDATZ: But this seems like much more serious fissures. They seem very different, much stronger--
DOWD: Well they're exposed because this is; the college establishment is no longer in charge of the dorms. The dorms are in charge of the college campus.
KINZINGER: It's a different moment because you see; I'll call it kind of the Ron Paul movement which all belonged to the Republican Party whether you support Ron Paul, whether you support Ron Paul, whether you support Ted Cruz or whether you support Chris Christie. We're a big tent Republican Party.
But I think as a party we've got to have a real conversation about the fact that you can have different views, you can vote with the Tea Party 8 out of 10 times and still be a conservative. The conservative movement has slowly been redefined to what Freedom Works and Club for Growth want it to look like which are outside, unelected groups, run by a couple of 30-year-old staffers. And that's what my concern is.
The other point I want to make though is this, the President of the United States is the only one, whether he's Democrat or Republican that can really lead a country together and give a vision. We can do that, I can do that as a member of Congress, but it's not going to have the impact of the President of the United States will.
He needs to come out and start to lead the country and say it's time to be unified. He's got three years left to make a name for himself.
EDWARDS: Look it's really easy to cast this off on the president. But the fact is when you have now what looks to be a majority of Republicans in Congress who want to stop the president at any point. Who want to say, you know, we want to undo your signature healthcare act and shutdown government over that and not pay our bills over that, I mean that really is very extreme.
And I think even a president who, and this president, I think, in my view as a progressive Democrat, has bent over backwards to try to accommodate the Republican Party and construct--
RADDATZ: This doesn't sound like we're going to do anything--
DOWD: I think that Martha, part of the real problem in this is until this part changes I think that we're going to be in this situation. We need to redefine winning differently. We define winning today as us versus them.
DOWD: I'm going to score points and if I don't score points I'm going to decide who the winner and the loser is. We define everything as a battle, everything as a civil war. The president, I think, has tried to balance this tension, but I think he constantly falls into; I think he would like to bring the country together and be accommodating and do all that. He ran on that just like Bush ran on that.
The end result of Bush's didn't turn out well. The end results of President Obama's didn't turn out well. But I think President Obama lapses back into this sort of dualistic thing that, OK I wasn't able to do it, I'm going to point fingers and I'm going to, and you watched his speech last week. And his speech last week was a perfect microcosm--
RADDATZ: Let's change the tone, but maybe not.
DOWD: Let's change the tone but they're at fault. Whenever you say they're at fault, you can't--
EDWARDS: Well Matt come on it is really important here. We don't want to do a rewrite of this. And in order not to do a rewrite, you actually have to understand who was, who was at fault. And there was real fault here. We had a majority of Republicans--
RADDATZ: But that again is--
EDWARDS: And Democrats who wanted to keep the government opened.
RADDATZ: Peter let me switch a little bit here. I want you all to talk about Obamacare. Obviously that roll out was not a good one. And I can't imagine the Republicans not using that as ammunition. That wasn't what the Republicans were really worried about. They were worried about the whole Affordable Care Act. But the rollout was so bad.
BAKER: The rollout was terrible. And the White House knows it. And the truth of the matter is the Republicans have given President Obama a gift here. Because in fact had this not happened, the narrative for the last few months would have been how Syria went in a way that, you know, was very disconcerting to the country. Didn't have a lot of support among Democrats. Democrats forced him to give up on Larry Summers for Fed Chief. They're upset about NSA.
And then we would have come into the fall and the healthcare rollout would have been bad. Without doing anything Republicans would have sat back and watched as things would have gone badly for President Obama politically. And instead now, he comes out looking out a winner or at least feeling like a winner, whether he should or not. That's the political dynamic in Washington today. And he may be re-empowered to some extent.
And Democrats who were pretty upset at him for various things now are pretty united and happy to watch Republicans fall apart.
DOWD: I tried signing on the first day, the first or second day, five different times. I was curious to see like, OK, what it would look like, how the technology--
EDWARDS: It didn't work.
DOWD: It didn't work five straight times when I tried to do it. I always said, listen it is the law of the land. The Supreme Court said it is the law of the land. Elections said it is the law of the land, and I always said, the test of this will be in the implementation.
The problem for the president and the Democrats in this is the implementation has been disastrous.
EDWARDS: But all of us so want to get it right.
RADDATZ: Let me go around the room very quickly. Everybody wants to get it right I assume. But Obamacare is still a huge issue, a huge issue going forward. Just very quickly, all of you, going around, will the government shut down again do you think?
EDWARDS: Well it better not.
KINZINGER: No I don't think so. And I just want to add we need to start finding win-wins between Republicans and Democrats here.
DOWD: I think it's going to shut down again. It may not be for two weeks. The basic problem--
RADDATZ: Merry Christmas.
DOWD: Hasn't been fixed.
BAKER: I think that's possible. I think Republicans don't want it to happen again. I think that they learned that that wasn't necessarily a good thing. But there's no permanent fix at the moment.
RADDATZ: OK you guys stand by. Coming up, much more from Jeb Bush plus Hillary back on the campaign trail. What does it mean for 2016? And she makes her stunning debut in the brand new film that has Hollywood buzzing, "12 Years a Slave." Now she's our Sunday Spotlight.
RADDATZ: Next it was Hillary Clinton's first campaign event in four years. Was it a preview of 2016? Our roundtable weighs in next.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
HILLARY CLINTON: I've had a chance to think a lot about what makes our country so great. What kind of leadership is required to keep it great?
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: A look ahead to 2016? That was Hillary Clinton on the campaign trail yesterday. Her first political campaign appearance in more than four years. And someone also weighing a 2016 bid, Jeb Bush. The two shared a stage a few weeks ago and Jon Karl asked him about some of the behind the scenes moments between the potential rivals.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
JON KARL: What's that conversation like?
JEB BUSH: It was very friendly. Treating people fairly and with civility is not a bad thing. It would be good for our country if political leaders actually took that to heart.
KARL: There's so much public distaste, rightly so, with Washington. You see it in the polls. Gallup now has 60 percent saying they want a third party. The Congressional approval rating in some polls has gone down to single digits. Does any of that make you less likely to want to run for president?
BUSH: No but my decisions won't relate to this. It deeply disturbs me as an American that loves my country. That we have this massive dysfunction. And it troubles me.
KARL: But you still may run or?
BUSH: Yeah, yeah. I mean the, the same place I was last time I think we visited about this which is that this is not the right time to be thinking about that.
KARL: The former Governor of Montana, Governor Schweitzer said that we have a country of 340 million people, isn't there somebody who isn't a Bush or a Clinton running for president?
BUSH: Yeah some guy told me that on the plane stuck in O'Hare Airport. He said he was supporting Obama; this was early in the primary. And I go why? And he goes, well we had a Bush then we had a Clinton, then we had a Bush and now we're going to have a Clinton? And then he looked at me and said, and then we're going to have a Bush?
He had an interesting perspective. I think some people believe that. That won't be a motivating factor in my decision though.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: A Bush, a Clinton, back now with the roundtable. Peter Baker again the author of "Days of Fire, Bush and Chaney in the White House." And talking about Jeb Bush. Does George Bush haunt him? Does that help him, hurt him?
BAKER: Well when George Bush ran in 2000 people criticized him by saying well if his last name were Smith he wouldn't be anywhere. He's trading on his dad's name. Ironically if Jeb Bush were to run in 2016, if his last name were Smith that might actually help him.
He's an impressive figure, there's a lot of Republicans who like Jeb Bush a lot. But he's going to have to deal with the legacy of his family name at this point and explain why America should go back to another Bush. Even if you liked the last two Bush presidents--
RADDATZ: They seem so different.
BAKER: They are.
RADDATZ: In demeanor and everything about them.
DOWD: They're incredibly different. You sit with either one of them and they're incredibly different.
I think the problem is what Governor Schweitzer said, for both of them in this, the country is just like I like Jeb Bush and I like the Bush family. I like Bill Clinton, I like Hillary Clinton, I think they did a good job.
But really, we've been playing this; we've been in this rodeo for almost 40 years, some Bush or some Clinton on the ballot or running for president for the last, almost 40 years. And I think the countries like, yeah that was great, give them a watch, let them go home and where are our new leaders in this country?
And I think that's the thing that President Obama did so well. He inspired a whole new generation of folks. I don't think Hillary Clinton or Jeb Bush can inspire a whole new realm of folks to change Washington which everybody believes we need to do, with names that have Bush and Clinton at the end.
RADDATZ: What could Hillary Clinton do?
EDWARDS: Well I think she could certainly add a dynamism that we haven't really seen yet. And I think the power of her voice as a woman. Frankly if she had a different last name, with that resume--
RADDATZ: (inaudible) Washington together?
EDWARDS: You know--
DOWD: There's an easy fix on that, the last name.
EDWARDS: Part of bringing Washington together though is something that now president really has that much control over. And it's a political parties and leadership--
RADDATZ: Is that true? Is that really true?
KINZINGER: I have to respectfully disagree. I mean there have been presidents in history that put out a great vision for America, the shining city on a hill, I think of with Reagan. I think on our side with Jeb Bush--
EDWARDS: We fought like cats and dogs.
KINZINGER: Yeah but I think history judges he was an amazing president. But when you look at some of the candidates that we have out there, we have a lot of great candidates. Jeb Bush has put a very positive vision. When he talks, he talks about the need for education. He talks about the need for unity. I think the Bush last name actually won't hurt him. You see George Bush becoming more popular as he's been out of office. People see him differently than they did when he got out. And Jeb is a totally different man. I think that we'll see that.
RADDATZ: And what's Joe Biden thinking right now?
EDWARDS: You know here's the beauty of the Democratic Party I think right now. I think we have a number of people who could step to the national stage. And maybe that's going to be Joe Biden, maybe it's going to be Hillary Clinton, maybe it's going to be somebody else that we don't even know. And whether it's a Bush or a Clinton or XYZ at the end of that ticket--
DOWD: The thing is there's no heir apparent. There's no heir apparent in the Republican Party which has not happened in 50 years.
RADDATZ: Lucky for you there's no time to talk about the Detroit Tigers and the Red Sox. Go Red Sox. Thanks everyone.
Jeb Bush might be undecided about 2016 but he's definitely ready to talk about the state of education. Here's more from Jon Karl's interview at the Governor's Annual Summit hosted by the Foundation for Excellence in Education. They spoke about one of his brother's signature and controversial initiatives, "No Child Left Behind."
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
KARL: "No Child Left Behind" was one of the great bipartisan achievements that your brother had. I mean there was Ted Kennedy right here in Boston.
BUSH: George Miller and John Boehner too.
KARL: So what's the legacy of "No Child Left Behind?"
BUSH: I think "No Child Left Behind" pushed states that refused to begin the process of reform into the arena. So now every state is on the journey. Some really slow and some far more advanced. But ultimately this is a state-driven kind of enterprise.
But the jump start for a lot of states that refused to use accountability and testing and a focus on early literacy and all the things that began with "No Child Left Behind" wouldn't have happened. So I think it served a useful purpose.
KARL: How bad is the current system?
BUSH: Well if you measure it by outcomes, you know, 1/3 of, 25% of kids pass all of the four segments of the ACT test which means that they're college or career ready, or college ready.
And about 1/3 or maybe say, be generous say 20% don't graduate at all. That's not, that's failure.
KARL: How important is it to have national standards? You hear a lot of people--
BUSH: Well I think higher standards is really the element of this that's most important. So if you dumb down the standards, everybody feels good. Little Johnny's going to get a piece of paper that says he's graduated from high school. But this massive remediation that's necessary to access higher education is evidence that we're not benchmarking ourselves to college readiness or to the best in the world.
So higher standards matter. The commonality of them, in this case 45 states voluntarily creating them.
KARL: The common core.
BUSH: The common core standards in language arts and math is important because then it creates greater transparency. Curriculum is developed, my guess is, in this kind of system where there's common expectations. You'll have one thousand different flowers blooming as it relates to curriculum. It won't be homogenized, it will be diverse and alive which is what we need. And there will be a lot more innovations.
KARL: But a lot of conservatives, certainly Tea Party movement, very suspicious of this process.
KARL: I mean Marco Rubio said not long ago, it's increasingly being used by the Obama administration to turn the Department of Education into what is effectively a National School Board.
BUSH: Based on the facts as I know them, that's not accurate. Marco's concerned about a national curriculum and I am as well. There's a big fear on the right about this massive government overreach. I totally appreciate that. But that's not what this is. This is a national imperative. It's not a federal government program.
But we could just, you know, comfortably go in decline. If we accept that notion that only 1/3 of our kids are college or career ready. Even though we spend more per student than any country in the world, by the way.
KARL: Yeah that does not work. It doesn't work. So standards means testing.
KARL: And you hear a common complaint, we test too much.
KARL: We study to the test. Do you agree with that? Do we test too much?
BUSH: I think we do test too much. You could have fewer tests and achieve the desired results of transparency and accountability for sure.
KARL: It's hard to fire bad teachers. It's hard to reward good teachers. This has been a complaint in education reform circles for decades.
KARL: Has the system gotten any better?
BUSH: It has. It has. In states like Florida we've eliminated tenure for new teachers. It's clear that we have to do this. But great teachers need to be rewarded more. Bad teachers, they should get out of the classroom. And those in the middle, there ought to be teacher development to help them enhance their skills.
It's hard to do that in a system where collective bargaining based on longevity of service for all employees in school districts, not just for teachers, is the organizing principle.
KARL: All right great. Governor Bush, always good to talk to you.
BUSH: Thank you.
KARL: Thank you very much.
BUSH: Take care.
KARL: Appreciate it.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Our thanks again to Jon and Governor Bush. And Peter Baker is sticking around to answer your questions for our web extra. Check it out at abcnews.com/thisweek.
Coming up our Sunday Spotlight, the actress making a stunning debut in the new film "Twelve Years a Slave."
RADDATZ: Now our Sunday Spotlight shining this week on actress Lupita Nyong'o. She's wowing critics with her performance in the new film "Twelve Years a Slave" which opened this weekend. And it's even more impressive considering her last time on a Hollywood set was a Production Assistant. ABC's Ron Claiborne has her story.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
RON CLAIBORNE: She's Lupita Nyong'o. It's a name many American's will struggle to pronounce. But her performance in a powerful new movie about slavery will be hard to forget.
She plays Patsy a young slave in the movie "Twelve Years a Slave" based on the true story of Solomon Northrup a free black man who was kidnapped by slave traders in 1841 and sold into bondage. The movie depicts the cruelty, the evil of slavery so vividly that many viewers will find it disturbing. I suspect a lot of Black Americans are going to be, come out of that movie theater angry.
LUPITA NYONG'O: And then it's about us being able to talk about these things honestly and openly, and seeing slavery in this way. And I knew that I was holding something that was going to be history in the making.
CLAIBORNE: What do you hope that audiences will learn, experience from this movie?
NYONG'O: I hope that audiences experience an open heartedness from watching this movie. You leave this movie and you just want to hug somebody you know? You want to be nicer.
CLAIBORNE: It's looking to be a breakout role for Nyong'o whose last time on a Hollywood set was as actor Ralph Fiennes assistant on "The Constant Gardener". Then came a Kenyan TV series, a degree from the Yale Drama School and now in her first movie role, a performance that has Hollywood buzzing.
I'm sure very soon we're going to be hearing talk of, you can guess--
CLAIBORNE: Oscar nominations.
NYONG'O: You know, when I was making this film, all I was thinking about what not getting fired.
CLAIBORNE: Well she got the part and has now got what looks like a big future. For "This Week" Ron Claiborne, ABC News, New York.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: Our thanks to Ron. And now we remember two of Capitol Hill's elder statesmen who died on Friday.
Former Congressman Tom Foley rose through the House ranks until he was elected Speaker of the House in 1989. A Democrat, he will be remembered for his efforts to bring civility to the Capitol.
(BEGIN VIDEO CLIP)
FOLEY: We think that under the circumstances it's a fair package and one that represents an obvious compromise.
(END VIDEO CLIP)
RADDATZ: And we remember Florida's longest serving Congressman, 82-year-old Republican C.W. Bill Young, a defense hawk, he made headlines in 2012 when he called for the U.S. to pull out of Afghanistan.
We also honor our fellow Americans who serve and sacrifice. This week the Pentagon released the name of two soldiers killed supporting operations in Afghanistan.
That's all for us today. Thanks for sharing part of your Sunday with us. Check out "World News with David Muir" tonight. George is back next week and we hope you will be too. Have a great day.