Michael Cohen's lawyer says Trump uses mafia-like tactics against his client

In episode 2 of ABC News' "The Investigation" podcast, Lanny Davis says Cohen is a "transformed" man who will offer insights into how Donald Trump operates behind closed doors.
41:20 | 02/19/19

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Transcript for Michael Cohen's lawyer says Trump uses mafia-like tactics against his client
Me. Welcome to the second episode of the investigation and cure Phillips and thank you for being here with us once again we Ergen is continue to take you behind the scenes. With our ABC news taskforce says we. Continue to uncover and dive into all the details of similar investigation of course here with me once again were partners in crime headed the task force. Chris last. Picture of there was a great first show we had last week with John Dowd who. Kind of told hall and we got a lot of headlines all over the country and we're gonna have Democrats we're gonna Republicans. Which kind of leads us though to our second guest. Who you know both of us have known for a long time and when I know I'm. She was the Clinton. Hatchet man who now it is it is working for Michael Collins. Former White House special counsel and as you mentioned legal advisor to Michael Colin he's the founder of the strategic communications firm trident DMG. Lanny Davis. We considered Chris less so that if I was at Humana never used action against him to save his adopted. That's a that's a story I heard as well saved his job I CA I didn't came to his defense when he deserved to be defended. He handed them you know though though Lanny I did say in the other show I said the difference of you know covering twenty years ago when we can who opened during the Clinton administration and now we even though the story is. On steroids so I think I think the trump story is significantly bigger I thought I thought Clinton was a big story of big story of my lifetime this is I think even bigger story. Oh but the difference was Clinton had people do his. Work people a view. President Clinton didn't do it himself Donald Trump doesn't himself and that kind of makes the missile big difference don't you agree or. Well they say a lawyer who represents himself has a fool for a client didn't say that a better president than a lot of his mistakes using his trader can much things he does. Reflects what I think is basically a poor judgment in history that that Michael Collins told me after ten years or working for him. He would be kind to say that he has poor judgment. He has no judgment in the years that. Michael worked for him it's quite amazing some of his personal experiences and he's described to me. I'm just curious you at right to Michael Cohen. Okay used. Eerie like king liberal mr. Democrat and you're representing Michael Cullen. To explain to me OK well Chris I could use the usual reason that attorneys represent. People that aren't always screw people that is what we do is a profession but that isn't. The reason I decided to work for my cocoa. It took awhile. For him to persuade me that he had made a genuine turn in his life. After ten years of shoveling you know what behind Donald Trump. In any immoral if not immoral environment with a man without a moral compass. I did not want to represent someone who defended him all these years on all of those dirty deeds. But that expression dirty deeds is the expression that Michael used with me when he said. I am now frightened. For my family and my country it's one thing to do this over ten years time period that I'm ashamed of because he was in the private sector but now he's president and he scares me would you help me get the truth. And it took me a while to be convinced that he was sincere. And once that was convinced I realize how does not just doing it to help a client Michael Cohen. I it's hard for me to imagine Michael Cohen being frightened it's that I'm me I'll be really bought and tear I've known him for really long time. He's a hard ass and he's mean any stuff he may yes he threatened me more than. Dude with threatened me. I don't blame anyone for being skeptical 'cause I've had many reporters with bad experiences when Michael Cullen. I was yelling at them on behalf of Donald Trump I had bad experiences seeing Michael Cohen on television and feeling that way he's yelled amazed televised last so I am convinced and it took me several weeks of many many many hours of conversations. To be convinced that he is a man transformed he's a different Michael Cohn then you remember. He's got the burden of proof to prove that when you say he fears the present I mean is he afraid the president's going to be have them you know. Taken out or something finally met its sound like this is some sort of fatal threat. Well for so there is something them back to say about these treats. In an attacking Michael Cohen so let's get to that now tell you about my word fear because I fear doubt truck. Because he has a finger this close to the button. And he is sold us out as far as I'm concerned Helsinki is dispositive proof that he sold us out to prudent in the Russians. He's compromised us with our allies his judgement is so. Poor that I don't know what he's going to do any goes to North Korea. He is the literally a man without judgment and he's president United States he scares the you know what out of me and so it does he scare Michael Cote but beyond that. Here's a present a United States. The top official in law enforcement and everything else in the United States. Using Twitter to call a person who is cooperating with prosecutors he rat. The word rat has a meaning in prison. When his head in. It means snitch. It would change your life is in danger it means that the prison United States on Twitter call somebody going to prison for cooperating with the government a rat. That is so reckless and so dangerous that in and of itself is an abuse of power that could lead to his ouster much less having Giuliani has lawyer. Call out his father in law and his wife. And says that his father in law might be connected on national television to organized crime. Michael Cullen and president trump have rolled in the same circles Lanny so I absolutely. Saw Michael Cohen that way for many many years in it is quite negative. And got dirty and shoveled you know what behind trump all the time. Until I believe and now I believe him that he underwent an transformation. And decided to tell the choose from and when the issue of a pardon came up. He has asked me in I'll repeat here he wouldn't take a pardon if trump pleaded with him to take why. Because it would be dirty YE Kristen and giving the pardon is dirty so I believe is a transformation when he stood up and pled guilty he said to the court. I did dirty deeds I'm ashamed of myself. I want to make up for it by telling the truth and I'm going to prison to do you think the the prosecutors have been so there district do you work for too harsh on Michael Cohen I'm so look I'm good enough lawyer with a client that I'm not criticizing. Even a little bit the prosecutors in New York. And Michael is now cooperating the best he can to persuade them. That he's had as bad as they thought he was. But I can say this with. The respect for that prosecute bush number one. Give give you one fact at a crime that he put to Kennedy serving time. He took out a loan as part of the hush money that Donald Trump directed him to pay that's in. On the public record that the prosecutors put into the sentencing memo Donald Trump direct did he. Him to pay hush money to stormy Daniels to the story wouldn't come out right after the Access Hollywood right before the election because he feared the political consequences. That's called a crisis. And when he did. He used his own. Home equity line. For 500000 dollars. As many to pay stormy day in this. Why do you use trump money your Trump Organization money because they were covering it up dated wanted to traceable so he borrowed at of his own equity line. Yet he was charged with making up false statement we're not disputing that somewhere on the financial application. Yet that has been charged as a crime and the fact that it was on. A crime though a lot of people. Well let's just say that it it's not cross it normally people are prosecuted for goodness sakes the bank is the last one that would complain if they're covered ten to one but did you the judgment by the prosecutors which we do not question. Was that it was a crime to have a full steam and elsewhere on the financial application. And it is the time that he is serving. He is serving and he has cooperated and he has told the prosecutors. I'll try to give you more in for Maine why would he do that for Donald Trump. Well personally when he finally pled guilty was in for Donald Trump that's after he decided to tell the truth about trump why did he spent ten years. As to shovel brigade doing all these what he did why it is hitter at a home equity loan why oh why. This he dated for Donald Trump because he was doing what he did for Donald Trump all through the years. He respects at the shovel you seen a circus and you see what people behind the elephants do. But that's what he was -- why would he do that why would he do that for Donald Trump trump as it like it trump asked him not only to break the law. But to covered up by coming from his own personal money and then get we paid. By the company as if it was illegal in fee which he. What which it wasn't which everybody knew it wasn't. He did it because in those days before he's where I'd regard to be transformed. Michael Coen wherever mr. trump bought it I'm here to clean up fifth. Well make it do you think I'm in Muller reports we come out. Maybe in a couple weeks or few weeks and campaign finance those campaign finance violation is not going to be part of the Muller reports. But do you think it's an impeachable offense no doubt is a felony. Could you are not all felonies are impeachable product. I don't know what Tony is in them an impeachable but if you're corrupting and American election which is what hush money right to for the election is. That your machine up to something that. Who could affect the election 70000 votes in three states at a fifteen million collected Dow trample over Hillary Clinton. Who have to add one by more than three million popular vote. Would those 70000 votes in Pennsylvania Michigan and Wisconsin. Have been changed at a fifteen million either do the math if they had known about the stormy Daniels. Hush money payment right this is Michael Cohen have anything that could lead to criminal charges. Does he have anything on mr. trump yes that could lead to criminal charges so I can answer that question except to say eBay Sibley. That he went to. Work with can cooperate with mr. Mueller. For seven days and seventy hours. And mr. Muller's words Hoover. He gave us evidence that go to the core issues of our investigation certainly is evidence on mr. trump directing him to pay hush money. It was evidence of a felony that mr. trump is guilty. How much don't we know we know kind of what Michael Cullen has said in the public record but how much don't we now. Well we don't know alive token if it's seventy hours and seven days with mr. Mueller we know nothing about that other than what mr. Mueller said which is that it was irrelevant important. Or significant and in went to the core issues promoting this year's is always so does he have. Anything that could bring down this president I just can't answer that or even guess I know that if he ever has a chance to us by publicly. He won't be a able. To address sending the issues and mr. Muller's investigating and a lot of people be disappointed by that bullet he will talk about is exactly what rhetorically that earlier this. What did you do for mr. trump during those ten years and why. And what caused you to change can tell the truth and refuse to accept a pardon. And become transport he needs to tell his personal story the American people and when he does. What we all think we know about Donald Trump. And all the negative reactions that many of us have to dollar trump you rainy here and personal Frontline experiences. Of memories and incidents and conduct and comments that Donald Trump said. Over that ten year time period behind closed tour that to me when I first heard Michael tell me all of this even as much as I knew that trump that was negative. Was chilling. Do you think the trump people have played this. Smartly in the sense of that when there's a feeling that we already know what's going to come. That's a strategic. There's a lot of people like John Carl has reported on the air that. He thinks the smaller report may be anti climactic. And he saying that only because we know a lot and we're now accepting things. This par for the course of this presidency. If you do you know what I'm saying when it. A well I think there is a preemptive strategy that at times I've seen he's doing any try any as usual messed it up. By getting bad news out himself in order to end. None everyone in I've seen a little of that come out of the trump White House I think the media nowadays kind of sets up the bar that's impossible to me. And if there isn't a smoking gun that means trump wins or it. They are high fighting at the White House because his popularity went up to 44%. From 37%. The bomb that happens after inauguration in the government shutdown. If I ever had the experience in the Clinton white house of high deciding that we're at 40%. This man has 60% of the country bush is afraid of him and considers him as reckless as I do. So whatever happens and they report I'm sure the trump why you ask them think the media will. Do the same thing oh well it was in a smoking gun and it's a victory. John Dowd said on our premiere podcast that he believes that but it won't be made public on record in the laws the guidelines that they feel just give it to bill Barr. And that's well percent agreed due respect to mr. Dowd he probably. He's a great last city was important sound voice and advice to mr. trump it is no longer there. Sounds like wishful thinking to me this is all of that politics this man can't get above the low forties. In job approval rating with one of the greatest economies we've had in years but there are high diving when he gets to 3%. So I am saying this today I was engaging in wishful thinking if the only standard is a felony. And you can't prosecute a president we would prosecute this president for what he did on paying hush money corrupting and American election and he doesn't even defend that. Mr. Dowd has right. But I think that the American people are wiser than a narrow view by an excellent lawyer. Like mr. Nancy Pelosi treated it that she believes Putin has something on and I'm trump do you agree. I infer which means. That I agreed from a reasonable inference I can't prove it. But yes there is no other explanation Twomey why he took the notes. Other transit never in American history has that ever happened well well well let me play the other side she he had been burnt. The his first calls as president. By someone leaked out his conversations with the Australian. The president the prime minister you've got to keep could be a bit paranoid he can you know I mean he eat it. There could be man on the moon eyed guy I there could be martians under my bed the fact is. His conduct with prudent secretive taking phone call ask not in enforcing sanctions having his campaign officials constantly meeting with Russia. And then lying about not talking about Russia but. Let me put it this way. Mr. trump. Has never. We had a policy. Telling the truth to the American people and what he's done with mr. Putin and all the contacts in all the lies you have to ask yourself. Why. But there is one other point to be made about the standard of this mullah report. I go back to king Henry the second. King Henry the second was very angry with the archbishop of Canterbury or. But he was too Smart to tell his nights go kill the archbishop of candor Burke. So what he said was would know and rid me of discrete this priest in about ten minutes later Jack bishop of Canterbury was dead. If you're on a jury would you convict the king Henry the second half of being part of a conspiracy to murder. Mr. trump never ordered any one or never did anyone I'd included included include. He just gave out plenty of signals to his people to and it's lighten up on the campaign plank. Let's not enforce sanctions that promise we won't why did mr. Flynn plead guilty why did he lie why did everybody lies. Mr. trump is Smart nothing. To say it will no one rid me of that previous priest friend ever thought the show was committed so until election paso. Quickly Hannity going back into in my AL education are viewed as you know Laramie. There's another visit easier way to explain why mr. trump he can be inferred as being compromised by the Russians. You don't have direct evidence of it. But as soon I think Bob Woodward and Carl Bernstein agreed circumstantial evidence is the following you go to bed at night and there's no snow on the ground. You wake up in the morning and the snow on the ground according jury convict that its note. You didn't see it snow. This is the way Donald Trump has operated as Michael Cohn will explain through the years he uses code words he winks any nods. And people do what he wants he isn't safe. Go kill the archbishop of bishop of Canterbury. He says quote no one rid me of this gave his priest and that's why mr. Dowd standard of direct. Or as I heard recently there's no direct evidence of collusion. No there's no direct evidence that. He even knew there were exclusion debt that Donald Trump used the word collusion. But did everybody act talk and walk put more Russians meeting talking involved with. Including in the Oval Office where mr. trump denounced. James call me. And said he was a whacko to the top spy for Russia and the United States there's just so much a Russian involvement is that all the coincidence. I think that there's an inference to be drawn and that mr. trump including trying to hide what he actually says to prudent but do you think the Democrat is an imprint city's compromise do you think. All the congressional UBU and I did a lot of congressional investigations. Did bogs down a presidency the American people worked to Bill Clinton's favor twenty years ago. They investigate over all that's creating New Zealand and it's over you know that this could blow up in the Democrats face danger of overreach on behalf of fear the dams. The fact is you're right we could overreach and we have a tendency. Just like the Republicans to follow the most extreme voices and our base. And there is a danger that we will do that. Did the insurance policy that won't hurt us in that we will still prevail on trying to each when he his were running against somebody who is mentally unbalanced and the American people fear. And I'm not using those words slightly I believe 55 to 60% of the American people will never vote for Donald Trump under any circumstances. I'm believe the issue and 21 in which Michael Cohen can speak to better than anyone has the man. Black's character he speaks invigorated words in private which Michael Cohn we'll tell you. He treats people badly he has no moral character in defrauding. People in this business is in going bankrupt and taking cash out and putting people out of work he lacks the moral compass that we expect in our presence. That is a lot more powerful. That will occur at the polls then in an impeachment proceeding or in congressional investigate. Site you have to while you're Michael Coen told many a reporter. Talking about Donald Trump even about the storm and dental stuff he'd swear on its children. It wasn't true. So why should we believe Ingraham I mean I know you said that before but she's sworn up and down you've got to trust me. Trust me I knew and I did this on my own. First to us a fair question. This is a moment of history that's rich and the day in the time I've said to Chris last that he asked me a fair question because like. Historical and community know I and the great fan of Chris. It is a fair question Chris and as I said to Michael Conn it took me awhile to be persuaded. You have a heavy burden of proof people going to start out saying after all you didn't give admitted to lying. You're going to prison for admitting to lying to congress why should we believe he. And I'm good nothing in the business that I'm in which is to try to get that tax and try to restore people's reputations. Michael though he starts from the depot. And the hole is the whole of what he did for trump for ten years. There a couple of things that you know say that he heard Donald Trump city behind closed doors about black people. Dead people even his supporters who say. He that's chump so in a few weeks Michael Coen is gonna go to journal. What to this head right now where we're. It's moving here risking he's he's his family his great life to greet children. And if his name. Who are not associated with trump I do not believe he would have been the subject to this massive raid. I don't believe that he'd be at least during the time that he's doing but he's distress is great. We set up they they go find me site he hasn't worked for well over a year he certainly worried about a future ability to earn a livelihood. And it is two kids one out of college one and if grad school. Our and his wife are in great distress at your desk going away for or maybe as long as three years is he ready for Jill can he survive jail Lanny. He'll survive he's a survivor and he's. Not happy when the Prez United States launches. Attacks on his wife and his father in law and then. Cause him a rat which is a label them in prison can be a dangerous label so that used to be taken seriously. But I do think he he has. Been transformed that's my opinion took Milan to come to that opinion but I'm gonna leave it to everybody including both the view. To decide if you've heard him when he speaks again where the should be believed. Thank you very much let me take you through. It's hard to believe I've known Lanny Davis for 25 years you know he he does have a lot of stories to tell what we are back. Welcome back to the investigation I'm cure Phillips have bringing in now that Matt mosque and Johnson to chief to bar best reporters of course with in the task force we have to cut Crist last so is apparently he's gotten some underground bunker to meet with the secret source. So they're fun to go there the Yankees in a parking garage somewhere in these deeper source expert and sweetest thing about the interview with Winnie Davis. I thought he would is fast. Fascinating and it really interest in contrast to the previous week which on down. From John down you heard the president's point of view from landing you really heard the other side of the story. When Ewing Chris we're talking about who Michael Cohen is inland he's saying he's changed she's better and you two were saying you bullpen threatened to pages say Michael call and told me he would throw me head first. 126 floor of trump tower John I wouldn't throw a UN might push you know what I mean I guy. I was holding beef along. First. We've all been on the back end of phone calls and conversations with Michael Cohen I mean he EELs and he screams and he gets really mad and you know I like to say I had uncomfortably. Comfortable. Didn't base in conversations with Michael Cohen. But Lanny Davis is convinced he's had a spiritual awakening he is a different person he is no longer. A filthy liar he says he's come clean. I mean what's interesting about this transformation. And that dispute. About whether there was one. Is that's reflected in the sentencing memos from the special counsel and then from the southern district of New York. Here's one thing the southern district of New York said about Michael Cohen. Any suggestion by Cohen and his meetings with law enforcement reflect a selfless and on prompted about face are overstated. I agree with that I wasn't in the room but I would just say I completely believe that. But if you listen Lanny Davis and he said that Michael Cohen is going to give America peek behind Donald Trump's board room door. And it's quote. Killing that's the first time we've heard that right care insurance. Wall and what's interesting about that is day. Remember the way you did trump tower was designed Michael Cohen's office is one of the closest to Donald Trump closer than any of his adult children his was just a couple feet away. Think his role one floor below him so. Should know the way they Donald Trump operates when he's just. Asking for something polling people and Beatty is believable. That Michael would have seen alive over more than a decade of being his personal lawyer so I do think he'll give important insight. I would just say knowing Michael and how he's been very capable and likes to stretch the truth he'll be interest seeing as to how. Over dramatic and how overplaying he's gonna be when he's certain to retell these of that. That you bring up a good point because even before trump was president and I wanted to talk to Donald Trump wanted to get an interview Donald Trump I had to go to Michael Cohen. I was in going through some PR person and or some other type of representative I had it goes through Michael Connelly knew he was spoke to Jon Miller that Donald Trump publicist that sounded awfully lot like kilometers vote that god never felt lucky here. What I thought was helpful in talking to Lanny ways. We didn't really know we've heard that Michael Cohen is gonna testify on the hill and the next phase. This whole saga. Are going to be these show hearings on the hill. And Michael Carneal be a star of that. We didn't know whether Michael was Garnett talk about the special counsel investigation a sense like he's not. What he's gonna talk about is what really. It happened behind closed doors in trump tower will. I think it's going to be a huge disappointment terribly Capitol Hill right because. You've always members of congress. Hoping praying and wishing that somebody will give them some insight into a ball Muller's been up to has been going on almost two years witnesses had not been able to go before these committees for this exact reason the Moeller still looking into them and they were hoping that might cold since. He's deals done he's heading off to jail would be able to give them that insight I mean based on land his interview Keira. They are going to be extremely disappointed in this presentation. Right because Lanny was saying it did Michael's going to reveal a lot about president trumps moral compass. But he didn't say wait to you hear what Michael has to say about collusion well hey Lanny is an expert at navigating. These crisis situations. And I think what he's probably telling s.'s. It's too early for Michael Cohen to talk about the Mahler investigation. And so he's not gonna Darrent. I think this is a perfect time to bring in our Chief Justice correspondent Pierre Thomas welcome to the podcast Pierre. Good to be here improve your ready ready to have a very transparent. Debate here. You know you're making me nervous Alaska. It will create peer nerve we have nobody knows what's coming next better than pier and so Pierre tell us what's next. Well I mean I guess we could use that phrase and so it begins we have the new attorney general who was once attorney general William Barr now in place at the Justice Department. And there's some huge. Things are on the table. This coming for dinner if you will the Muller reports what's he going to say about it his eagle an incident that it over to congress. How much of it is he going to release of the public. That is staring him in the face almost a one. And I think it's fair to say based on the comment from the acting attorney general Matt Whitaker a few weeks ago. That report could come in anytime. Days if not weeks -- you think there may have been some clues in a court hearing that took place a week or two ago tell us what you read enough of the transcript of that here and last week we had a document release. Involving a close hearing that was between Matt of course attorneys. The special counsel's office stand the judge overseeing the case. And the special counsel was talking freely in what was a closed hearing in a way that we never see them talking in open court. And he said that manna Ford's relationship and contact Brian but with a guy named Constantine Glenn Beck who. You suspect of being a Russian intelligence officer. Andrew Weissman has two principal deputy for Mueller said that quote. Those contacts. And why they were having them and what they were talking about hold go to the heart. Of the special counsel investigation I don't know if you the that's just very dramatic language that we had never heard before. And as you read into the document deeper. There was something else that was emitted a lot of people haven't noticed that we would talk about a right now for listeners who probably have not heard this before. He also said that whenever they were discussing. It was so critical and whatever did metaphor was lying about. With so critical that they believe that he thought he could impact his potential of getting a pardon. The word pardon was dropped in the document and again we've never heard special counsel noted that weren't pardoned in relation to metaphor could report. Here this is like super pave over all of us I think gray because thing. The transcript is filled with rejections. So called. Hints and clues that are offered there are not quite fulfill that are we going to be able to learn more about what they were taught humanities and. Why I've been pressing some sources. Why do you keep rejecting all this information and the only thing I can get from someone who is knowledgeable is that. We black out the information that's considered ongoing. Ongoing. So. This notion a metaphor again think about it dinner cigar room. Not far from trump tower three blocks away three blocks away. Genuine and tell us about the Saddam yeah I mean I I I know it I mean it's it's your poker they were did you smoke cigars with not telling him but it's it's a very interesting place for granted better and so. These ease. Club located on the top floor a 6665. Avenue and the building is owned by the cause your family they don't give for the last several years. They've had some debts on a they've been trying to paid off big mystery man out and anybody in this regard it's a private club. The membership via their security cameras there is that we need to go by and oh yeah like we did you know what's interesting about this club just some of the members that belong to it right so you have that you trumpet adult children they are members breach Leon he's a member. Don't think it's a little weird. Alec Baldwin's a member I Al Sharpton is a member he's a very unique. The juxtaposition. Of New Yorkers. They belong to this club. And metaphor it was there many times throughout the campaign he would take meetings there but peer will always interesting to me. In this long filing from the special counsel we got to see what happened court a couple weeks ago. These days. This meeting at the grand Havana room was in August of 2016. Everything that we had originally heard is that the context with Clement a coup they referred to as KK I'll work earlier in the year. Just take a step back gets the campaign chairman. The Republican nominee for deputy chairman. And the government is saying they're meeting with the case suspected Russian intelligence officer it's insane. And the government has said on the record. That calling be. Which shared with Clinton now. There's always fastened to me what they would. Home withhold we still don't know what the polling data diesel that's residency to because we have to remember. This campaign was not sophisticated. Earlier and and we had a conversation here you and I could we thought it was the spring Keira you know. Yeah until they were gonna win our own security and handle pulling a great and they were relying on the Republican National Committee. They had one person Tony Fabrizio. Who is that we might be national polling but let's just be honest national polling when you're going state by state by state. People it is a me damn thing you need to know what's happening in the states that are actually going to be going to the ballot boxes for. Primaries. I thought it was interesting when they were talking about this cigar room meeting. That. They noted how Covert believe they entered and exited the meeting that the three of them all last three separate exits. That doesn't seem like something that Mueller team would know by accident full security camera friendly curious boy hurting the airline really. Loved to see them into the camera videos appear here here here is my big question on this I think a lot of people. If Paul man a Ford is often doing. Honestly these things to benefit himself right he had money owed to him to a lot of foreign countries god knows he owed money himself to others. From Ukraine and other work he had done. Could he had been doing this. Without Donald Trump before the trump family knowing anything about it because that's what seems like 200 does have nothing to do with campaign. Calista. Eight look so very. Fair point and I think. And Egypt just who are forever trapped there may be will he soar Rudy Giuliani and Kellyanne Conway in the last couple months saying well look. I didn't collude and I don't believe Donald Trump colluded but if other people on the campaign more often doing this you know who knows maybe that was there and getting ahead of this narrative now that we're seeing in this final. Both businesses. It an important moment to make this point and not a single case. That Bob Mueller has broad has the comply don't implicated the president of the United States without doing any single. Fast fact. We can look at the 34 indictments and charges and there's never any allegations the president of the United States. Has done the anymore interest of cases of Bob Mueller has brought. You're certainly right that in terms. The man afford. Case and the filing. There is no implications. For a indication that. The president of the United States then candidate don't front knew that this was happening. House here would be something there a source told me. That to be careful about but here we go a surprise cast given where there's a PR AB mirroring a year's gonna make the headline right here it's. Think about this strictly from the Russian point of view basis that was set a number of people in Trump's orbit are having all these different contacts. With the Russians. So at minimum the Russians are looking at that same thing this group of people seem not to be seeing us as. Enemies but people that they can do business with the let's see it we can influenced him to the heart damage didn't could tell you from the counterintelligence community. That the Russians were gaining it was a win win for them the moment that they had contacts would Trump Organization officials. And it was not reported back to the FBI's so that the FBI could be proactive in investigating it. I think the big hanging. Question from our first podcast is. John downs assertion. That there may not be any report and all this stuff for talking about. We may never know the answer to PIM curious peer whether you think that's yankees the well the pistons every source I've talked to says the following. That there's going to be a makes an extraordinary fight. Over. Getting that report sent to congress in a way that they're satisfied with I didn't Democrats. On the House Judiciary Committee. Democrats in the house are not going to be satisfied with some pared down you know generic report where they don't exceed. All the information because. Many of them are making a case privately. Debt problem Bob Mueller might not violent crimes than what is an impeachable offense. For what is considered something that they would care about. There's a completely different matter they just sort of won a road map of how to move forward here in capital honey GE you've been out there cure I mean. The investigations of their launching a different ways they're going I mean that you're looking at anything six. Plus subpoenas. Well and also to I asked Elijah Cummings with regard to Michael Colin you know it is this the guy a vacant. Tell you whether or not there was collusion and and he said I don't I don't know but I'll I want is is the truth so as we get ready for Michael Cohen and the fact that he's going to testify what does he really know does he have something they can implicates the president could there be criminal charges and if so could that lead to impeachment he that's what everybody. Wants to know. And that that's true but based on land he's interview with Ewing Chris. It doesn't sound like Michaels who legally be able to provide that roadmap when he good if he goes and testifies before he heads off to prison. If they have an answer to this time next week's podcast. I hope so but I highly doubt it. So peer question for you with regard to the Muller investigation to this point. What is the biggest revelation for you for the biggest thing that you have a learned thus far. Peter this a great question I still would say what is his penultimate what is his assessment. Up all the facts it's have been gathered and affected even in the indictment that we've seen. There's been so much redacted information. They go quote to the heart of the investigation I'm quite frankly tired and I want to know what is the bottom line. What is the information that's been built with help from all of us didn't resume the most critical things that would help Bob Mueller and his team understand. What did take place that would did not I think a lot of people share your frustration about that. Maybe it's time for us on moving to the public into public view yet and we look we're advocates for the First Amendment we want to know. All the facts but I spoke to a former very senior Justice Department official recently. This person came to bars here and support and you say you know on the one hand we have Ken Starr's investigation and there were a lot of leaks. And we got a new and a narrative before the report came out. And on this and we don't know the bottom line but the Cold War but what Mahler is finding we don't know. And he said. I think that it did the best. Example might be somewhere in the middle. He doesn't think that this much of a black hole about the core but what most findings car. His good rating when he doesn't make as good for the president didn't think it's good for the American public. That we should know more. About the bottom line nowhere Muller it's going with the simplicity. I think that's a great place to wrap up here so glad that you could be with us this episode and thanks for joining us bird the second episode of the investigation. Be sure to hit subscribe to leave us or rating and it reviews so that other folks can find us and it's also the great feedback for us and thanks to our producers behind the scene Tierney Trevor Hastings Caitlin Vollmer Stanley were taos ski team and for my colleagues Chris last so ma'am mosque Johnson TT. We will see you next Tuesday on the investigation.

This transcript has been automatically generated and may not be 100% accurate.

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