Transcript for Baker in gay wedding cake case explains why he's taking it to the Supreme Court
??? It's be a hot topic all week. On Monday the supreme court agreed to hear the case of jack Phillips who refused to bake a wedding cake for a gay couple back in 2012. He claims that as a Christian he has the religious freedom to deny business to same-sex couples. Okay. Now speaking for the first time on TV since the supreme court announcement, please welcome jack Phillips and his attorney Kristen waggoner. Welcome to the show you guys Jack, this all started when this gay couple, Charlie Craig and David Mullins, right? Uh-huh. They came to your shop to order a cake for their wedding ceremo ceremony. What was your immediate reaction when they said we want a cake for our wedding? I tried to politely tell them that I didn't do cakes for same-sex weddings. I serve everybody all the time. But I don't make every cake for every event that's required. You don't make cake for every event asked for you to make it. Yeah. If you asked me to make something else -- He told him he would sell pretty much anything in the store. So a different cake, just not a wedding cake. Anything I sold at my store. Just not the wedding cake. I get you. Was there any part of you that felt bad that you had to turn these lovely guys down? Yeah. It's a difficult thing to be in my position and know somebody is requesting me to do something that I can't in good conscience do. Please get that. I understand. I understand what people have about government but on this religious freedom I struggle. It violates your religious freedom to sell a wedding cake to a gay couple, with straight couples do you ask them if they had a child out of wedlock or participated in premarital sex? Where do you draw the line? That could be deemed sinful as well. I don't judge people that come in. I don't make cakes that I don't believe in. It's all of a faiths, Islam, christianity they all believe a marriage is between a man and woman and dignity cuts both ways here and jack's dignity is at issue as well in this. So I think it's a broader issue and there's also a free speech issue here. You can support same-sex marriage and still support artists like jack and their right. What is your belief that prevents you from making the cake? What is it? I believe the bible teaches that marriage is between one man and one woman. There are other things in the bible I'm sure you don't believe. One thing that's confused me about this is in the bible it says many things if you read it and it says do not lie with a man, one lies with a woman. But it also says don't judge others. We're not the final judgment. It says love thy neighbor. A lot of messages. How do you reconcile which ones to go with? In my mind whether you believe or not you should definitely not marry a man but if someone else does, it's not my place to judge them because god will ultimately judge them I'm not judging them. I'm not judging thjse two gay men that came in. I'm just trying to preserve my right as an artist to decide which artistic endeavors I'm going to do and which ones I'm not. There are other artistic endeavors that have no relation to same-sex couples. They're not related to gay marriage. What are the other types of cakes you won't make? I won't do cakes for adult-themed parties. Halloween occasion. I don't do anti-american occasion. Something that would be disparaging to somebody. I'm not really sure -- How about -- Do you publicize that? Do people know that when they walk in? As difficult it is to tell you now. No. What if the Ku klux Klan came in and they wanted a cake? That would be disparaging and that would not happen. You're saying no, you would not. That's correct. I have a question bouncing off of Sarah's question. I know that you're a Christ follower and Jesus was criticized for hanging out with the lowest of the low with the tax collectors and the sinners. Did you ever ask yourself what would Jesus do in this particular situation? Instead of denying them, do you think maybe Jesus would have said I don't accept this but I'm going to love you anyways? Do you think that would have had a more powerful testimony? Still doesn't answer the question would he have made the cake and I don't believe he would have because that would have contradicted -- Could you speak up a bit. I'm sorry. What do you think Jesus would have done in that situation? I don't believe Jesus would have made a cake. You don't? O', c'mon. Jesus would have made the cake. He would have -- Jesus turned water into wine. He could do whatever he wants. But Jesus, that's a deal breaker. Jesus is going to make the cake. Jesus wouldn't contradict his teachin teachings. First of all. Second, even if you support same-sex marriage, joy, I have a hunch, maybe I'm just wrong here, but as a democratic people writer or that you wouldn't want to write a speech advocating for the GOP health plan or saying Donald Trump is the best -- They don't understand either. The same laws that force jack to design custom expression will force you to speak messages that you don't want to speak. I don't think it's exactly like that. It is. It's the same -- But I'm talking about -- look, I'm not judging -- listen, I'm not judging what he did. I'm just speaking for Jesus right now. Let me ask you this. Because we talked about this same issue yesterday on the show and I can see both sides of this argument when I put one hat on. When I put my legal hat on it's a closer call. When I put my human hat on, just make the cake. But let me ask you this. Lower courts have found jack, that you broke the law. Because there is an anti-discrimination law in Colorado. Lower courts found that you discriminated against this couple but you're taking this fight to the supreme court. Why not just make the cake? Two things, the supreme court is willing to hear it. That tells you something, there's more to it than I discriminated against a couple. What I did was not to discriminate, not to judge but to decline to make a cake, an artistic creation for an event. These two gentlemen are welcome in my store today and every day. I welcome everybody who comes in. I don't make every cake for every occasion. I think we have to put it in perspective. What's really -- have jack talk about what it means for him to bake that cake and to violate his conscience and the dignity harm he has had to sustain as a result. As well as what he goes through when he makes the cake. It's a canvas he's painting on. His hurt and soul is going into that. He's received death threats. Have you lost business because of this? I can't take it. Because of the court's ruling that I have to start creating cakes against my faith, we have given up stopped making wedding cakes period. It's bad business decision. 40% of your business you lost because of this? I can't document it but yeah, that was a huge, huge part of our business. We did a couple hundred wedding cakes a year, $500 average. A lot of money. That's too bad. The other cases that are going on right now, there are people facing jail time for these kinds of things. Literally we have -- we have a case before the supreme court in two weeks, she's going to lose everything she owns at 72 years old for serving a customer for nine years and referring him for a custom wedding -- same-sex wedding design. She's going to lose everything she has. Some people say you can set back the law. You know, the case set back the law 50 years because anybody could say I have religious freedom to deny you my -- I think sunny would know as a lawyer, that's not how it works. That that's not how it works in the court. Cases are decided based on the facts of the case. To argue with a slippery slope. Even lbgt advocates are -- all of these cases are about the right of expression, the right of the artist to create and if the state can crush jack it could crush every single one of us. It is a close call. We reached out to the gay couple's attorney and they declined to come. The supreme court said the law is squarely on David and Charlie's side because when businesses are opened to the public they're supposed to be open to everyone. While the right to one's religious beliefs is fundamental is license to discriminate is not. What's your response? My response is what I said earlier. First of all, the beliefs that marriage is between a man and a woman cuts across all of the major reridgens, all cultures, all civil yagss. My brother is gay and in our churp it's fine for him to get married and I was raised in the church. There are a lot of god-fearing Christian gays that are accepted and loved and choosing to love someone else and so I do think the bible has not changed because it was written thousands of years ago and translated 60-some times. So what we're reading if you study the bible is interesting enough but faith has changed and it has evolved. But is he allowed to have his faith? I totally agree with that but I do feel it should be -- I should note that when I go in because when my brother walks in and can't buy a cake from him I don't want to put my business there. It's my personal freedom. You're right. What do you say to that because we discussed this and I know we're running out of time? Would you be willing to put up a sign that says, you know, this is a Christian bakery, this is a Christian establishment, I will not make cakes for a, B, C, D? But if there were muslims. You might be putting off other religions if you do that. If the court would allow it. If you say this is a Christian store -- Halloween, gay marriages and just let everyone know these are the things I do. First of all, common law would prevent that. Second the supreme court and president Obama has recognized jack's beliefs are in the main stream. Millions of people of good faith believe in and we need to be a tolerant society. But you have to protect the minorities and in this case the gay guys are the minorities. That's basically what the law is
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