How the Black church has shaped American politics | FiveThirtyEight Politics Podcast

This episode of the FiveThirtyEight Politics podcast explores the role that the Black church plays in American politics.
47:34 | 03/05/21

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Transcript for How the Black church has shaped American politics | FiveThirtyEight Politics Podcast
Hello and welcome to the 530 politics podcast I'm Gayle and three. Today we're gonna take a look at the role that the black church plays in American politics. On Monday Georgia Republicans passed a package are voting laws that include limiting Sunday voting 21 Sunday during the State's three weeks of leave. As we discussed at last week's podcast that's notable because it could limit souls to the polls initiatives that encourage black Americans to vote in conjunction with church attendance. About 30% of Georgia voters are black but in 20/20 they made up about 37%. Of Sunday votes. That's according to data from fair fight action a group XT Abrams. But the black church is a much bigger role in American politics than just souls to the polls. And I've invited on some experts to help us understand its history and the role that it plays today. Politics suck Hewitt me to talk about it all is political science professor at. Emory University on her last beat her research focuses on race and politics in the United States hello welcome to the shout. Thank you for having me. Also were thus is senior researcher at Pew Research Center Bashir Mohamed. Q recently published a large scale study looking at least amongst Americans which he co authored. Welcome to share. Thanks for Edwards or to be. And lastly here at us is Stacy Holman the director and producer of PBS's recent documentary series the black church. Welcome thank you for joining us. Thank you so much for having me. And I'll say at the great serious efforts should definitely go check it out. I want to begin first and former us and I'll throw this question to use DC since you've just completed the documentary on this. What is the black church it's not just one institution. Denomination so how should we define actress talks. The boxers is not monolithic. As you sad the black Terex involves not just. Christian and also involves. Is line involves other religions. That are outside the Christian days. It's a place where we have gathered on behalf organized. We have worse service. And we have more and so the black shirts and bodies every aspect of living. An African American. Community and it's been that from the very beginning and continues to be that staple. So it's it's many things and it fills many spaces and a people's lives and in their communities. I think it's important to think about it from a political sense in terms of it being institutions from sociological sense churches are houses of Marcia Clark. Other places where people congregate so that they came communion. With god and divine an end and ponder their place in the universe but. As eight at. I political NTT. You know it was this place where blacks had relative autonomy if we look at this with respect says the rest of their lives. And this is they place that had indigenous black leadership. At and many instances. And so it KE eight focal clean organizing. In a social outlet because of this really unique central will eat in black communities. Yeah I mean just sort of building on that I think you know think about it from an execution stand point. And a certain sense that the core a lot of people talk about is the black church are set up historically black Protestant denominations. That were created with the intent giving. Lacks a place towards Europe where they didn't have to deal with issues like segregation. And so. So that's an Corbett but to go back to put that state is making there's a lot more to the black church. A black religious institutions that suggest that those historically black denominations within Protestants fear there are independent. Churches that they clearly follow in the black church tradition so to speak. And writing ways in terms of the types of sermons they have in terms that NG with the community. There are our Catholic parishes that that that operate in that sphere and meant. As these steps are also Muslim organizations. You know we the F one circuit question. Whose black Americans about the role that the black church have played historically. I'm helping blacks move toward equality. And investment target of black Americans in the black church has plays an important role. But they also went along and said that like most organizations have played an important role in helping black car while. And so we talk about the lectures I think there's a lot there often packed in terms of theological. Variations within there because they did it because wall the primary the primary role the church is of course in the utmost. Believers religious system for spiritual arm and its pleas for moral guidance. Or are these imports of social political rules that the lakers' play this year action. Point out that this study that you conducted with Q is significant in the sense that. In most surveys that are conducted there's a relatively small sample of plaque Americans. It's a you're survey spoke with thousands of black Americans in order to get a more ring regular review. How they view religion and religion and politics and things like that and so I'm just curious you don't what is the level of religiosity amongst Americans and and how varied is it. So one of the great things about the system user hers built studies where we had over 8000 black respondents in the sample. Is that we can get past what we've done in the past about well how religious are black Americans. And you know the days to sort of into that we've known for a long time as black Americans are morally just and white Americans right measures. But we can get past that now. And we can say okay well what about African immigrants how they compare to US born blacks what about the lack. Catholics how does it compare to black Protestants. What about the religiously unaffiliated black Americans who we know have been growing in years. So we can start to unpacked this sort of broad strokes and say for example that we see that African immigrants are significantly more religious. And more religiously conservative. Then US worn black on a whole host. You know I think that most. People when they think about the black church and politics think about the civil rights movement and of course the church made a large role in registering in mobilizing voters. And also in the actual leadership of the civil rights movement. So has the church always been a vehicle for political activism Powell did that on Tuesday. Currently it has because as the first comments I've said it's the first independent organization. It's a place that we had agency. And it's a place where you can actually raised leaders. People to become. And grown to leaders of positions and if you look at even reconstruction. You know look at the number of pastors or axle Lee. Part of congress there is a lot. You know on the local and on the national level it off right 200. So you know it's it's instrumental and is really building up this institute an individual's ten. To help support politics. In. The broader sense and that's only place that really can do that lane again you know when he was actually trying to figure out during the re ten. You know the civil war are. Who easy meat act he meets with pastors who is general sermon he went he meets with pastors so I think right then and there you see a varied. The scene being planted in terms of how white politicians will start feeding into the black church and issuing their costs. I mean as you mention the black church. You know pre dates black americans' ability to vote even it predates emancipation. On them. When did the church start becoming involved in collect oral politics in that we that we think of it today and answered at the top of the chart through things like Russell polls. I think it's really hard you know just look at sort of this new innovation that's come forward in the you know last twenty years at the advent of early voting as the black church's involvement in politics and when I think back to protest movement. About of a long civil rights movement and not just. You know what we think about is a heated between 1950 in 1965. It's important to realize that what black people were teaching this evening if they were distant franchise was that politics is more than voting. So people in my discipline in political science dismissed black politics is actually human being I think because most blacks couldn't vote and it was like that political organizing. That pressing on elected officials. That backroom negotiation and never happened. Wits you know the most important person a black community who was often a teacher or preacher or an undertaker. You know it's something that was heightened political. And highly ambiance and churches became important and the reason why particularly in the mid twenties century. Preachers were such an important part of the movement. Let's because one they had these large institutions where people keep me. And they were any position to be able to be spokes people because they were economically independent because they remain financially supported by their congregations. Which means that especially you know in cities. Where you didn't have bi vocational preachers you had somebody who was being supported off of the tides and offerings. Of his church members and so he didn't have to worry about going into you know factory are going to an agricultural job where he might be fired. The next day it's it's really important understand you know why. This happens the way that it did in when you think about meetings and organizations. People top seed here. You know the messages in church but then there's also that period act futures were people are talking and you can disseminate information. And just fun and networking standpoint like this is why black churches. As well as black colleges are so critical particularly in places in the south where civil rights organizations were. This is at the end this becomes an important site important location for people to be able to organize for it to resist oppression. This is also a place where conversations are had. Like is this there is this the right move forward or not. You know do we want to be engage in these protests or not it hasn't always been given that the answer even within the church has been like yes this is going to be the path forward. But the place where they had those conversations about how are we going to move for what is our path and Tim I'm going to be. Was the black church because that was the place where. Where we're at lax control the space. And so that control of the space in that independence. And that security really. Gave them the safety basic cable this is at least we're gonna hash out how we're going to move foe or how we're gonna address Hopkins. I'm curious if you were able to use if were able to you kind of aren't looking back at history. You know what kind of past acts these initiatives have had on turn are an engagement. Amongst black Americans that and if you're black Americans who are affiliated with churches are more likely to turn out and vote and be involved and politics. Yes there's a long history now and in political science of people you know who had done its work until I'm really indebted to Wear them friends and colleagues hear me staying out for parents who've done that's let me there a couple of things that we can look at wind. Church involvement seems to be. Real heat. Helps influenced positively a person's likelihood of participation particularly somebody is actually actively involved in church is one of his parents actually fruit. About a quarter century ago sort of looking at the act. Was that it wasn't just check membership that was important to people who are actively involved in their churches and other political scientists likes it for ninety managed Osmond and Henry Grady and that part of the reason why. A churches are important is because. It can help African Americans. Learn civics skills that they may not have learned they were deprived that for an having had an equal education's so some people and how to fill out forms or how. G Roberts rules of order in meetings or speak out. At meetings through you know participating in student government and a school and college. Other people learn about hadn't run deacon board of missionary circle. At their local black church and so there are lots of Lee opportunities for leadership in Protestant churches. That's actually been really helpful in helping says sort of do people skills and confidence to be able to and use of steals in in the public square we know from. Academically. Managers. And work that's been done by people including my colleague Bernard product. At Emory that African Americans and more likely to participate in early voting. Entity to use that as a convenience until it's one can be convenient it could be that their mind was made up it can also be in terms of scheduling. Being able to schedule when you can gogel as a especially if you don't work the traditional nine to five kind of Monday to Friday work acie can you can Clinton so little bit better. In other African American churches seized on that opportunity in terms of organizing getting their congregants outs. Early voting and providing transportation which is opt in of the year year. For people who are economically does manage to be able to cast their votes at a relatively low costs so we see all of that and we've seen it. You know manifest it in differentials kind of turnout rates for using its types of options. And and we've also seen what the response looks like. When we seen early voting curtailed. And so not suggest eliminating Saturday or Sunday voting but also you know even cutting back a number of days of early voting and so people have made arguments that I think are worth examining about whether or not the motivation for that was it it was cost. A weathered out of the idea that certain people are more likely ticket agent those opportunities and others. I think. The most recently were actually act a lot of the same things that. Simpson points there are I was making you know based on historical data so for example. And if you can she report we see that black Americans that attend religious services regularly. Are more likely to say that they think each and right of other sorts of sort of social and political. Form of activism when that volunteering whether that's attending community meetings are a whole wide range of things we see this this. Link between. Being involved in church and being involved in other aspects. Of the sort of social and political. Of course georgians are selected reverend rob pro war in Iraq to the senate. Is it frequent that we see you know people move from church leadership into political leadership. Well at some. I mean you know he's just the latest in a long line of preachers who have become politicians Adam Clayton Powell we could talk about count but completely we can talk about injury young. Let you know John Lewis had ordination and we could talk about the political candidacies of Al Sharpton and Jesse Jackson. And Ian it is actually you know Gary common to see a black preacher. Ryan 44 for political office the semi it's not unheard of for a white features mean there's Mike Huckabee for instance you know there are many people who use. Their background and their training in theology. And in the clergy and then you know moved in ten political activists. You mentioned Mike Huckabee there and I do want to ask is this different from. The white church or the way that the evangelical church gets involved in politics. Our you know it what ways is it different in what ways should we think of this as being similar on the roles that the role that churches can claim politics regardless of race or denomination. You just speak you know in terms of the conservative we had that this will we see is it being different true differently. One is that. In black congregations. And black Americans more broadly. We see more. Talk about political topics and her desire to hear talk about what cook. Local topics even you know questions about political engagement voting protests. Black Americans are more likely than white Americans is that they're looking for that in their congregations. And black American to go to black churches are more like this in defining. So so part of it is just a matter. To Greece and speak like how much politics is there. But few others it is is that is is just as important maybe more import it does it matter kind. So to expert brought top rate. It's only say you know politics is from the pulpit area it is the congregation talking about this you're this or does have sermons addressing the question that. What we see is. A desire for very different types of political sermon so. Black Americans are much more likely to suit their hearing sermons about. Social justice issues like race relations but criminal justice reform. Then than white Americans are people who Wear black congregations and much like this it hurt them people who grow to wire others congregations. And they're less likely for example to hear a sermon about abortion. So so you know there's there's broadly political topics and you might need abortion might mean criminal justice he might mean race relations. The debate which of those three you're talking about how you're more or less likely to hear that in black church first election. And what I saw in the PD you know sort of it's consistent with what people is seen in other you know in and other survey instruments and in previous studies so you know it's scenes you know it seemed accidentally Miree kind of confirmatory in that respect. And it just know that I think you have to acknowledge that white churches particularly white evangelical churches. Also are engaging in political activity are also disseminating political messages. In some ways they've adapted some of that that the patterns mean you know there's you can look at the rise of the religious rank and organization that starts in the 1970s and 1980s. And we can see wine you know ordain ministers televangelists being directly involved in Napa and also creating. Secondary organizations to do network at the Christian coalition where the moral majority. Apple also seek ways that. Messages and actually sentenced outlook some subtle and annexed it as somebody who was evangelical who's been a number of years and predominantly white churches so. You know accident a black church right out of voter act on the way editor's accidentally and that white church before. And you know it's also not uncommon these days to see. Republican politicians speaking in black churches. So like I heard Mike Huckabee enters before the same way record Cory Booker and calmly Harris and black churches. He ends where you also see other politicians who do that sort of Sunday morning we're gonna say hi. Acting tell you because I was watching on iron my shirt because of the pandemic. You know I saw where Doug Collins Kelly Butler we're making appearances in that cemeteries and it would have been unusual in this same church from work. Need to that seen. People like review. Come and visit the congregation. When he was governor of the state opt for add in other churches where Brian camp has made appearances and so. Those same things are our are going online and snow. What what I am seeing now and we still need quantify this to mix of this happening on a wider scale went and Republican politicians are comparable sort of adopting the same. Strategies that they've heard of a black politicians using for years. It's. But that same essence you know we want people to register are you want people to get active you know activated and that same masses as the same message sent a lot of preachers black preachers are saying on their pockets so. Like you said I get that. There's that's a similar they want voters he needs voters and are mobilizing their congregations. To actually go to the polls to encourage him to cast their vote for our candidate that needs their costs that speaks TU. In of their moral compass and this is a topic that we discussed in the documentary. Sure all right now they have ever. In order to permit. It won't be up and how. That would not have been about don't does he get whatever black bracelet and that book due to register. We think sometimes as you know politics and religion not always mix eggs are well you know some people don't want your politics and accuse some people do. Is that divide also present in the black church is it just kind of commonly accepted that people are urged to vote and we'll hear from you know certain politicians probably democratic politicians or is this also a debate. From from the date I think there's there's 22 weeks purpose I think one it is just that some some numbers. And so I'd say so we asked for example in the past twelve months have you heard. A sermon about political impeachment. And we saw that about half of black Americans and this is this it is but this time last year so this is. Not you know during the election cycle which about half black Americans that they hackers. I'm so that's not even a majority even though to significant number but it's compared to only about a quarter of whites. So it's certainly a lot more. But it's not true to give this goes back to the partners in the beginning about the black church not being tomorrow. There is a lot of diversity in terms of whether or not this is something. Excuse me whether this is something that the people want to hear. But the other thing we're sort of keeping in mind as we look at this. It is that in the relationship roughly speaking between. Sort of faith religiosity are losing each mean. And political partisanship. Among white Americans we see that. People. The people who identified Republicans tend to be more religious by Reitman and more like this it was important. And more likely to attend religious services fixer you don't see that distinction among black. As you said most black Americans had to fire him for the Democratic Party. But about 10% due identifier V toward the Republican Party. But the distinction between the Republicans and Democrats that are black is not religious it's not about these kinds of services is not out. To come partners really yeah. There aren't distinctions in terms of social social conservatism social issues political issues but it's not a distinction amount religious beliefs and practices. And so much. How does that that this year which is so true you know it's the political divide is there is a divide when it comes to. Ridge a lot city and the black church and we see that in the sixties. There were churches that where as reverend Barbour says that were afraid. Actually you know participating because of the violence that they are congregation inexperienced but also one story we did not get to delve into is that there are other. Denominations or other. Churches in the north that we're totally against the ways that the civil rights it was being run and that was. Jesse Jackson and all of a church in Chicago so you have you know. People believe like you know the heart will change that person's belief. As opposed to we are actually going to you actively protest and challenge the system sol. You know dot divide in terms of how we handle justice how we how we handle politics. Is very you know you see that divide in the churches while still one of. The things that Stacy you bring up in the documentary is Martin Luther King junior's famous quote. Which is that it's appalling and a segregated hour of Christian America as 11 o'clock on Sunday. I'm curious assure you were able to tell through your research to what extent ease this still true. And why that it. There in a lot of ways that it that that is still true almost certainly less true that once the time. If you look specifically at black Protestants. About two thirds of black presence that attend religious services. Seen me do that in a congregation where the leadership and most of the other members. Are block. So so in that way we definitely see that it is frequently the case we see this frequently the case. That black Americans especially black Protestants are worshipping. Black churches. It's much less common for example among black Catholics. Most black Catholics do not good that black churches as we defy him. But. Think it's worth. Highlighting. That that went when Doctor King made that point he continued to operate. Because it is. As part I think they witness interview well what about nurture basically. And and he said it's a segregated. But not said repeating church. And and he made a distinction. Is that he's that we would welcome members. He made a distinction between. A church that is exclusive his racially exclusive and exclusionary. And ensures that heaters to the needs of blocks. And that's sort of distinction. Is one that the respondents in our survey also me. So we asked people know what the race in your congregation with the recent leadership and we see among black boxes two thirds say that to actor. We also acting thing. Congregation that historically been blacks should work to become reach more racially diverse. Or should work to maintain their tradition there her. Their their traditional character and most black Americans including those who currently Google lecture said that these churches should work to become more diverse. We also asked how important were looking for a new church top court with the recent past to be or burglaries occurred creation. And including and most black Americans including those who currently go to doctors at those would not be hyper X so important that both groups of people you know. How how does this work that we have makes sense that this does this distinction. And and then the same point believe that that Doctor King made so so long ago. That what we this church and and it fills me. It speaking to us it speaks to what we need to hear speaks to our concerns speaks pardon me difficulties. But we think this is up a lecture. It's a majority. Black church. But that doesn't make him black church it's it's church's welcoming for every. And so I think that's an important point that that we still are serving any purpose groups that. While congregation may be majority black and half black leadership. That doesn't necessarily. Mean that it seen. Either by the leadership or by the members as being sort of racially exclusionary or that race is the driving factor here. They're distinctive in terms of the style of worship this distinctive in terms of the content of this term and some of those things are draw. It's in a way that won't guys what happened black pastor really wasn't drive. Where I hate I see you know kind of black people aspired to verses the reality of what's going fine until I. And you know in serving adding that focused indeed its units attack about the fact that. He and many blacks who are in black churches didn't want this trick is to appear as though other people warm welcome. But something to note about the fact that these churches still remain overwhelmingly. Black and black led. And so while I see people expiring. Soon. You know multiculturalism they also live in a world where that's not as easily as an as easy as it sounds. I'm and where practice it might not work. And in the same way. And then also people are still making decisions about their congregations. Ray you know you know 880 evangelicals are people often talk about church planting and so sometimes at this idea of some people take us mountain people on an existing church and start another church someplace else. And being done in a cross cultural across class play. Well it looks like it's a numbers of a historically black congregations every ten families together and ran and go to the white church is down the street we're gonna Staten Island Freddie LC people doing that all the time either as acting is also important to know also ran that sometimes there isn't a dump Biden difference. Between sentiment and actually hate your that's actually worth noting. And pointing out there and that there really important cultural reasons why that's happening on the famous and judgmental way at all but there's a reason why despite what people Pulitzer missed you which isn't bad genuine people hate your looks very very different because some important reasons one pack. For that. You know an outlet that has been the issue segregation and it can be handling history's it can be culture it could be where people are located. Geographically people if you're close proximity to return us if you're traveling across town. Buckeyes want that cultural connection so that's it's a really complex kind of situation and system here that we need sent. You know understanding explore our. Well I think you brought up and just seeing this spot that I had to going to be actually kind of entertained and explored doing the series witches. You have you know middle class upper class. Black people who lives in you know. The suburbs will actually travel. Two. The black neighborhood to go to it hurts so they will instead of going to the church sits down the street which may be predominantly why they'll actually make that axle effort to gut S out. Well you know about this off day what we're trying to understand why blacks look so politically copies. And it's that type of behavior that Michael Dawson was identified when he was articulating the concept certainly see. The idea because let's leave that what happens that lets affects them in turn means that he's group interests instead of individual interest when making political decisions and an idea that you re imports in the work of other. Scholars like most scary and other people who have examined that simian like they're important cultural reasons why especially if blacks have been integrated lives in their neighborhoods and perhaps living more integrator mostly. You know oh where are living in white spaces you know at work. They may want to sort of come back and find cultural home where they want that reinforcement. Their identity is African Americans and any spaces. Help to inculcate this identity that blackness is important. That is something to be proud of and that people have obligations to African American communities and so. At kind of counters that classic American individualism notion that's going on there. Yeah I think I think that that's all I absolutely right you know there's a lot there's a lot of those this does it end your season. If it doesn't look all that how people talk about things but then also what they're doing rate. And we definitely do you see that that many black Americans. Are now sort of commuting to go to you know the black church so it's not just I'm going to my local church sometimes in his right. Because our communities are segregated me please racism time that he used go to your community church and that means you gonna go to lectures. But many many black Americans are also community right commuting significant distances to get together to get these issues socialism that's also factor but I think there are. Difference is other then breaks that come into play here. For example you know black triggers are much more likely to have box or call and response rate. That much more likely to have her serve pentecostals practices in whether Tara dancing or shouting or speaking. And so there's a certain amount of us are sort of sort familiarity write like this is the style of worship. That I'm used to this this is this is how I experienced the line this is my feeling of of of of what an experience with the divine books rate and so. And tokens of those distinctions are important thing the other is something that that we've touched on a couple times which is. What's being talked about. You know our if you if you go to old white church aren't going to hear about regional just. As a as a religious issues are you can hear criminal justice reform as a religious issue. Because the fact is that most black Americans do see racial justice as a as a as an central issue to their fate. The vast majority black Americans. Say that at least completely Americans. Senate opposing racism in the central part of their fate. Mob waiting liquidity happens in attending religious services is in Central Park. And so. If that's their view of their think is best is that it narrative they're working here and a white church. And the data we we have suggested now. There much less likely to hear that narrative in a white church that much more likely hear about race relations in a sermon. You know ended in a black as other these distinctions in terms of the content of this term they're distinct as in terms of the style of worship. That also are gonna play a factor in and children in church selection. This leaves soon. Something of a dynamic politically where sometimes when. Black people run for office their participation in black churches is scrutinized so. Patrick Obama and reverend Wright's controversy as you might call it. Is part of that tradition also some of the attacks on reverend Warren while he was running for senate in Georgia came from comments that we're meeting his church or people that his church had invited to speak and Saarland. And so you know how would do non black Americans view the black church. And how hasn't been used politically. Over the years. It was really instincts and live in Georgia. And it's you watch the attack that was used against now senator Warren and then we all needed that people weren't likely going to go to his government's opposition research. It was still really jarring to see the way it was used in the context in which. It was used. At you know within the Reverend Wright controversy you know that came up during the primary in selecting it was done to scuttle the Obama candidacy before basically it even took off. And you know it was definitely used other him. And so you know it's in the context of a candidate whose biracial. The previous summer there were blacks who you know we're sure he was black enough to be the first black president of the United States. And he had that upbringing pride that actually went to greater support so if he wasn't on Muslim and he was going to turn this radical black pastor. See that being re invoked with roughly a one act in a different way because fact that reverend more crack heads and Dejan Meyer right. And you re in this team social professional circles was was very interesting so why it was. Yet we heard that twelve years ago why are you bringing this up again. Kelly Butler was bringing it up look highs C. Knew that he couldn't run away from it in the same way that Obama and Obama OK you know disability from the church and that would be it. Why not giving him an award went out with friends with you know people who aren't like Kennedy's friends with the successor pastor at trinity in Chicago. So he wasn't on a run away from it as easily. And I also wanted to thinks it's really interesting investment most of my time studying black politics is like Obama who deep racial. Who tend to try to be racially transcendent and Obama deep racial less stress disorder team down on sort of people viewing him as flat. By distancing himself from Wright and that more perfect union speech. Rafael pat wasn't an idea that 88 and left their new answer she beat it she hadn't backed into a corner. And she can make him super black and super scary and it's run a little bit of law and order and that's indeed attract and then there was this under current. Dot trying Ali. When is not kindly pastor that he portrays himself to be and so for eat white evangelicals appalled at what Donald Trump is doing. Brightly this guy is definitely might not accurately when she's bringing. Don't of the Wright speech in the only part of the Wright sermon that she would you as well as the GD America. And that's also all you heard was. Robitaille why not supports has gotten uses only name in plain and he'd been in blessings from the pulpit and game. He says that you he would serve god in the military. And so it was a you know it was interesting to watch the logically. I had data and still going through. You know from Georgia much smaller sample size and what this year's working less than a certain level and Mary I have. I thought that there would be. You know that people might actually reacts let's learn more negatively than it did deep Purdue. I have both in terms of what they thought about the tone of the ads and whether or not they thought she was passed more recent. Even David Perdue and I'm not detecting those differences and I think it's in part to its interest for short just yet. But because party eight he was just so important as a party ideas wouldn't like the blunt instrument Bentley you know that that determines everything and so. No matter sort of light what these folks say you're a Democrat. You were gonna vote for Rafael Barak and John cost you know at the same rate answered that's kind of what I'm seeing it looks like. And simple data at least bats in that part. I think we see similar pattern and and data. Looking at some black Muslim organizations. So for example we asked about the role laugh some organizations like the nation of Islam. Latin cards right move toward racial equality. And we see. That. Black respondents are much more likely than where respondents did to give credit to these organizations in terms of helping. Blacks moved toward equality. So there's this this sort of affinity. With these with these black Muslim organizations we've communities of this and in. And questions we're asking about whose identity you know. We saw people who said Saturday they feel called they identify with these Christian that cultural affinity to a song hurt her muscles. And that's that the patent proceedings and much more among black Americans. And and its link to this this site yet the these organizations. Helped us move toward all. Where as among among whites often. He's in the nation of Islam and it triggers a very different set reactions rate triggers concern about. About anti semitism and and and and racial segregation and racial inclusiveness. And you don't see some of that black American but black Americans are also much like mr. more positive view of the contributions users. Before we wrap up I want to talk a little bit about how the role the black church has evolved in the 21 century this year looking at summer your research I can see. They younger generations are not as involved with the church do you feel like them rolled the black church is changing. Within the black community more broadly. Has it plead the kind of role within the black flies matter movement that it made in the civil rights movement. Is all of this changing and if so why. It definitely is the case that younger blacks are less likely to. Attend religious services in lecture. There's two reasons for that one is that. Darker blacks like younger whites are younger younger folks glories is are less likely he could endanger less likely be religiously engaged. But then beyond that of those who are religious thinking age younger blacks and more collected and who can't be sure way to smother the majority. Despite that it's still the case that. Even among younger blacks the most common pattern as to go to congregation where blacks are the majority of blacks are in leadership. So among those who do attend services that are still. The plurality if not manager. But I think the other way to look at this is questions about their role that. People think that the church should have. Do you think it should have more influence that does not think as lest it should have less important to us now you think that what we're seeing now is just fine. It's pretty rare even among younger relaxed this for to hear people say I. Yet. The black church you have less informed than it does now. Overall about form ten blacks. Actually they like to see lectured more. I'm an assemblage here say they neglected the current level of much of the black church cast. Is bow. And there's a slight difference by age where are all the blacks are bit more likely to say that they like to see the church have more influence in younger laughter it like that it's day. That they like to see pictures from about the same level of influence and maybe it was the last. But the age differences were actually relatively small across age groups this year of blacks who see that. Black churches should have less influence is actually quite small. And the divide is really between Hayes is what we're seeing outright or we'd like to see more. I was good at defer to the fell again I. Is just that question you know where is it what is the future the black church you have this eventful one Darren Hughes is ministering to the LG BT. Q community. And when we interviewed Traci black and one of the quotes that stuck with mean that she share it is when Yasser Al black clouds matter is he's very active. And that movement in Saint Louis. You know what is the future the black church and you know whereas black lives matter and that she's like black eyes matter that west hurts. That was that organ is that organizing that protest that was church. And what's why that stuck with me is because if you look at again the history of what the church has been assemble. It's true you know it may not be in the confines of of brick and mortar structure and may not have a cross. Right in front of it but it is people gathering people. Mobilize seeing people speaking to. And challenging. Distant injustice. That they are experiencing that this nation is experiencing. I think at Casey's past eighty's he's the sort of discussion of evolution is important and several were thinking about political organizing. I think the electric still does have a really important bowl to play because it is still a central community. I just in the 1950s it wasn't you know it was a central community I think even more so today it is a central community among many until somebody wants to organize. You know in in black communities. You have to you know definitely take advantage of the church but you also have to look at other organizational structures as well because. That's how you maximize your outreach keep them I think that's really important. And I think is actually a really important is sort of looking at that's changing nature of American Christen them. You know and it what is at this year's data shows and is consistent with what we've known for a number of years. Blacks are still you know the most religious group in the United States particularly relative to weights. Where to remand in terms of the role that we expect the black church to play in American politics guard for its an office conversation mentioning. The voting law changes in Georgia. Work arts missiles the pole there and power to axles to the polls. You know is there are still a big role for of the black church in American politics is changing. Going forward. I was on. Up call our. Presumed with reverend moss the third a land area as he goes back and one thing he said. Really stuck with me which is fat you have a Stacey Abrams and you have a senator. Or not because of the black church. And ever talking about the blacks as a whole would also have to look at it as individuals. And the men and women that are being raised opt. Do this institution men and women who are learning. And gathering tools that they can then use to mobilize political campaigns to meet Georgia blue. Because of this institution. So it's doing things globally but it's also paying and just feeding into individuals. And there personal call to. Fill in the blank. And I think it will always development and being fat that playground being fat jumping around that starting ground. To building up and mobilizing men and women that are going to. Lead this country politically on a local level or even on a national level. You. One of the things that I am really interest in as an academic. Is thinking about what it looks like so I know that. That the church is still going to play an important role in politics going forward. What role in alongside one of their institutions I think is the big question what the interplay is going to be between those institutions is important. Also let me acting you know that didn't meet people have been having about the black church in the last twenty years. Often are dot tried on how that relates to politics. So. You know and is people saw some church's theology moving away from social justice theology more towards prosperity. Gospel. Was that going to sort of you know privilege of the individual above the group and what that have an impact on on politics and what does that look late. You know I they're going to be churches that. You know critique capitalism are there going to be those that you know ROT win it with inequality like these kinds of questions that. People have had been looking at you know I think my talent influence thanks Tim Tucker works but I think you can also look at some of the work of people who are religious studies. Or Jason fields link Marla Frederick and and while it see them kind of grappling with these kinds of questions on I think that those questions on the table. All right well we roll keep track and it maybe. As time goes on the back and well we'll ask you what we have the data and more information but for now figures are much for Jordan me today it's TC under this year. Instant think he allowed us. My name is due under Tony challenged in the virtual control room Claire beleaguered Curtis is on your editing you get in touch my emailing us at podcast at 530 dot com. You can also course greeted us with any questions or comments. If your fan of the show beavers are reading or review couple podcasts or or tells them and about us thanks for listening and rose. And.

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